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op-permission-level=4 in 13w19a?

13w19a

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#1

Mumbot
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Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:35 AM

As the title says I'm a bit confused about the properties item "op-permission-level=4". I haven't been able to find any info on this and am reluctant to start messing with my server at the moment. Haven't noticed it before so I assume it's new in 13w19a, but I can't be totally sure about it. Has anyone tested it and knows what it does?
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#2

TonyTheSlayer
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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:17 AM

Holy crap I just checked my server.properties file and it's there, too.

Maybe there will be an implementation of permissions like Bukkit?
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#3

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

I did some quick testing on my server and came up with this so far:

op permission 1 = Can destroy and open doors and chests and use buttons and pressure plates in Spawn. Cannot use commands like /give /tp /gamemode etc.

op permission 2 = Can use /gamemode /tp /give /effect /clear /difficulty /gamerule. Cannot use /op /kick /ban

op permission 3 = Can /kick /ban /op. Cannot use /stop

This is awesome! But I would have preferred if permission 2 could use /kick and /tp only as I find those are the only ones a junior mod would need. Gamemode and so forth feels a bit overpowered for a level 2 and being able to kick someone misbehaving is something you'd like your mod to be able to do and ranking that as high as /ban and /op feels a bit strange.

We'll just have to see what it ends up doing in 1.6. Very much looking forward to this! Would also be awesome if you could set permission level individually...
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#4

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:16 AM

Those permissions are weird and I don't like them.

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#5

Puredarkness

Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:57 PM

New unnanounced server stuffPosted Image ?

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#6

Syline
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Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:51 PM

Permission level 1 seems superfluous; I don't see why we'd have a special rank for OP if they can only use buttons in spawn. (Or why you would have buttons in spawn if nobody could use them, for that matter.)

Other than that, the permission levels 2, 3 and 4 (I presume 4 includes /stop) seem like a very reasonable distribution.

#7

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:02 PM

Oh dear, I guess I was a bit unclear. On level one you can destroy anything in Spawn protected area and also use buttons and so forth. I guess the using of switches in Spawn could be useful for for example storing items for the lowest level mods or trusted players there and maybe for putting tp-buttons for them to be able to go to specific places. So I don't think it's altogether stupid. But I would like lower levels than three to be able to kick griefers until someone in authority is there to decide wether a ban is appropriate.
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#8

blue_bear_94
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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

I'd also like the kick/ban privileges separate from the building/other command privileges.
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#9

Syline
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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostMumbot, on 20 May 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Oh dear, I guess I was a bit unclear. On level one you can destroy anything in Spawn protected area and also use buttons and so forth. I guess the using of switches in Spawn could be useful for for example storing items for the lowest level mods or trusted players there and maybe for putting tp-buttons for them to be able to go to specific places. So I don't think it's altogether stupid. But I would like lower levels than three to be able to kick griefers until someone in authority is there to decide wether a ban is appropriate.

Alright, then I guess that level 1 is less useless than I thought. However, what is this "authority" you seem to be talking about?

I have noticed that many servers nowadays have a nearly infinie (hyperbole) spectrum of ranks: vistor, new member, member, builder, expert builder, master builder, trainee mod, novice mod, moderator, super moderator, administrator, server god.
Occassionally more.

Trainee mod can warn only, unless a higher ranked mod is online of course.
Become a novice mod and you may kick.
Those mods who are dedicated to our server may become a common moderator and can ban an user for up to an hour.
If you prove to be a valuable moderator to our community, the gracious server gods may award you with the status of "super moderator" so you can actually get rid of griefers with a permaban.
Of course, even super moderators have to report to the administrators if they wish to roll a griefed building back.
The server god rank cannot be atained: it is only for the server owner; we're just showing the name off to display our superiority.

Now, WHAT is the POINT of such a system?

The surprisingly likely young server owners like the idea of being the god over the server. They are the ones who hand out the ranks, so please be dedicated to the community and I might be kind enough to upgrade you from a trainee mod to a novice mod. Hard work gets rewarded. Also, we love to hand out ranks to anyone who I see online often enough, but we can't trust you at all, so have a prestigious rank that than barely do anything.

It is like some little kid holding a carrot in front of a pig.

>_>

Now, what is a far more sensible system?
I know a certain site with over ten million users that has a well-functioning moderator system. I shall simply take this as an example, because most serious sites have some comparable thing.
There are essentially three ranks: user, moderator, administrator.

Everyone starts out as user. There are no lower ranks (except "permabanned user") and you immediately do everything. There are no miniumum post restictions or such nonsense. This is because we like our new users and welcome them rather than making them work through the burdensome and useless task to become a member.

Administrators are employees. They can do anything. Nobody who is not an employee can become an admin.

Moderators are able to silence trolls for 15 minutes, one hour or one day, or able to ban them for one day. The prefered way to handle trolls is to mute for 15 minutes and harsher measures should sonly be taken in severe cases. They are also recommended to be as lenient as possible, which means that if the troll has shut up, then the need not ban them. As a rule of a thumb, "it is always right not to silence, but it is not always right to silence".

There is no inferior moderator that can silence only for short periods. There are no superior moderators that can ban for longer. The site acknowledges that the moderators are doing a voluntary community service and is grateful to them, not the other way around. No moderator will be demodded because he's inactive or does not ban trolls, as long as he does not abuse his power, we're glad to have one. We've got mods that have not logged in for years.

Anyway---- back to servers.

The servers seem to treat moderators as the server's servants. They are expected to be online for a certain time per week and have duties to do. If they do not perform well enough, they may lose their position, which means more opportunity for griefers to stike.

Why do we need such an indefinitely complex system? The only factor that should matter for modship is trustworthiness. If a moderator will not abuse his power, there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to ban griefers straightaway. More mods = better. Who cares the mod is not active? If he comes on for one day in the month, then that day of the month will be protected against griefers.

If somebody cannot be trusted with more authority than the ability to kick somebody, then he doesn't deserve that ability to kick. If somebode cannot be trusted to not abuse his /give and /gamemode powers, then he shouldn't have the ability to /ban.

There's no need to separate builder and banning permission. The mods with banning ability can use their building ability to quickfix griefed buildings. Make a rule "mods may not use their building permissions for personal gain" and the entire problem is fixed.

#10

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

I seem to have trodden on some quite infected toes and would like to clarify.

You got hooked up on my use of "someone in authority". With that I actually mean the server owner in most cases, since I really think that the ban hammer should be used with utmost care and I myself as a server owner would like to be the one to make such a huge decision.

Otherwise I agree with much of what you say. There is a lot of power hunger involved in the Minecraft server community and very many times it goes too far. And yes, mods are a huge resource for a server owner and should definitely be treated with gratitude and respect.

I still think that a four rank system would be ok compared to the very many ranks you can get on for example a Bukkit server. At the moment the only way to have mods on a Vanilla server is to make them op. And op is very much too overpowered to entrust with someone you don't actually know irl, since an op can do absolutely anything to a server, including perm banning the owner and shutting the server down.

But I don't agree that separating resource and building permissions from kick/ban is the right way to implement these permissions. I just think that kick and ban are two almost totally different things and that kick is something that a whole bunch of players should be able to do in the absence of server owners or regular mods. I think I'd set up my server with trusted players that have been around a while, mods with the power to do everything except stop the server, and me as the server owner being the only one with that power. Which makes three ranks.
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#11

Syline
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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:44 AM

View PostMumbot, on 21 May 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I seem to have trodden on some quite infected toes and would like to clarify.

You got hooked up on my use of "someone in authority".

Actually, no, you haven't. Since several people here said that they didn't like these distributions, I felt like making a point about the uselessness of the entire range of distributions that has become almost standard in the server moderation nowadays to support the point that something simpler may be better.

View PostMumbot, on 21 May 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Otherwise I agree with much of what you say. There is a lot of power hunger involved in the Minecraft server community and very many times it goes too far. And yes, mods are a huge resource for a server owner and should definitely be treated with gratitude and respect.

[snip]

But I don't agree that separating resource and building permissions from kick/ban is the right way to implement these permissions. I just think that kick and ban are two almost totally different things and that kick is something that a whole bunch of players should be able to do in the absence of server owners or regular mods. I think I'd set up my server with trusted players that have been around a while, mods with the power to do everything except stop the server, and me as the server owner being the only one with that power. Which makes three ranks.

However, what is the point of the /kick command? AFAIK, after being kicked, you can log in directly again thereafter. I've seen things happenning like [griefer joins -> kicked -> griefer joins -> kicked -> griefer joins -> kicked -> giefer joins -> ...] This cycle continued for a while until the lowly ranked mod got tired of kicking the griefer. In the end, the /kick was no use to stop him.

The think the /kick is actually good for is and official warning "You're doing bad stuff; stop it!" from the staff, which has more seriousness than simply warning through chat. However, I don't really see the point of this /kick anymore when pretty much all users get this ability, unless you've got users who've got enough hours to waste continuously kicking the griefers until the server owner logs in.

The /kick gets more value when server by somebody who has at least got some temporary ban ability.

View PostMumbot, on 21 May 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I still think that a four rank system would be ok compared to the very many ranks you can get on for example a Bukkit server. At the moment the only way to have mods on a Vanilla server is to make them op. And op is very much too overpowered to entrust with someone you don't actually know irl, since an op can do absolutely anything to a server, including perm banning the owner and shutting the server down.

Note that even if some OP permabans the server owner, the server owner can simply unban himself and ban the mod through the server console. The worst thing that could happen in vanilla is the OP banning everyone and thereafter grief the server using his creative mode while nobody is around, and finishing it up with /stop.

However, note that any entity that has temporary banning ability could also ban everyone and then grief the server without anyone around. There's not that much difference.

//

I agree with you that the banhammer has to be handled carefully, however, I think the main problem lies in the fact that Minecraft vanilla has AFAIK no implementation for temporary banning, which makes it either kick or permaban. Thus, when ranks had to be decided, kick came together with permaban.

#12

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:05 PM

You know what.. You're right. Kick is pretty useless as anything but a slightly stronger warning. So, yeah, I'd more like if Vanilla MC could implement /prison and /prisonmute instead. I have been a mod and tried kicking a very stubborn griefer who just kept coming back and started abusing everyone in the chat, before I managed to ban him instead.

And yes, having temporary banning would also be better than my idea of having lots of people being able to /kick.

Well, we'll just have to see where this is going. And all your points are legit points, so I kinda rest my case here!
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#13

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

I would personally like something as simple as a series of optional configuration files, to dictate level permissions.

For example, in a file called op-level-1.txt you would find:
access-spawn:true
clear:false
gamemode:false
difficulty:false
effect:true
enchant:false
gamerule:false
give:false
scoreboard:false
spawnpoint:true
teleport:true
time:true
toggledownfall:true
weather:true
ban:false
ban-ip:false
banlist:false
deop:false
kick:true
list:true
op:false
pardon:false
pardon-ip:false
save:true
stop:false
whitelist:true

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#14

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:15 PM

View PostGorstavich, on 22 May 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

I would personally like something as simple as a series of optional configuration files, to dictate level permissions.

For example, in a file called op-level-1.txt you would find:
access-spawn:true
clear:false
gamemode:false
difficulty:false
effect:true
enchant:false
gamerule:false
give:false
scoreboard:false
spawnpoint:true
teleport:true
time:true
toggledownfall:true
weather:true
ban:false
ban-ip:false
banlist:false
deop:false
kick:true
list:true
op:false
pardon:false
pardon-ip:false
save:true
stop:false
whitelist:true
That would be really useful since server owners could op people without worrying about people being able to do a command that they don't want them to be able to do.

#15

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:19 AM

Awesome. I knew that this was odd looking! Cool beans.
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#16

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:36 PM

Wait, how do you even change this stuff?

In my server-properties, all I see is the op-permissions thing. How do you change that for individual players, or is this feature not yet implemented?
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#17

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:26 PM

It can't be set for individual players only for all OP's as far as I know. It is in the wiki now: http://www.minecraft...rver.properties
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#18

DanManB
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Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:38 AM

Well I will just keep using permissions then.

#19

MacUser123456789

Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:59 PM

Ugh, I want my ops to be able to kick/ban but not give or gamemode.

#20

9393andersson1

Posted 13 November 2013 - 08:05 AM

I took this from the MinecraftWiki:
1 - Ops can bypass spawn protection. 2 - Ops can use /clear, /difficulty, /effect, /gamemode, /gamerule, /give, and /tp, and can edit command blocks. 3 - Ops can use /ban, /deop, /kick, and /op. 4 - Ops can use /stop.

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