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[Badprenup]

MacUser123456789, on 01 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

I use stone all the time, mostly for stone swords when I'm doing something very risky. Stone picks are only slightly slower than iron and cost next to nothing. Also, I don't always have iron on me.

Huh, I always seem to be swimming in Iron and Diamonds within a few MC days. To be honest I just use Diamond stuff all the time because once you get a Fortune III Pick resources are no longer an obstacle. That being said...

MacUser123456789, on 01 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

You need the crafting table before you can make a wooden pickaxe. Once you've made a wooden pickaxe, I don't think you need another level that is made in the same method in order to learn. Then the next level, iron, requires a furnace. That tutorial would not set a player up for the game very well. It's easier to just look at the wiki for a minute, which you have to do anyway to learn how to craft anything.

I actually do like the concept of needing Smooth Stone for tools as a tutorial introduction to the Furnace. That way the tutorial kind of goes like this:

• Punch Wood
  
• Crafting Table
  
• Wood Pickaxe
  
• Mine Cobble/Coal
  
• Furnace/Smelting
  
• Stone Tool
  
• First Ore

So it actually kind of makes more sense how you suggested. But I wouldn't in any good faith call me an outright supporter, I still find it a trivial change that would affect too little for them to be bothered.

[KeenCoyote]

MacUser123456789, on 01 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

I use stone all the time, mostly for stone swords when I'm doing something very risky. Stone picks are only slightly slower than iron and cost next to nothing. Also, I don't always have iron on me.


Cause you totally need to be able to make a "2nd level" pickaxe to prepare for night, right?


You need the crafting table before you can make a wooden pickaxe. Once you've made a wooden pickaxe, I don't think you need another level that is made in the same method in order to learn. Then the next level, iron, requires a furnace. That tutorial would not set a player up for the game very well. It's easier to just look at the wiki for a minute, which you have to do anyway to learn how to craft anything.

Tell that to the other 2 million minecraft players, changing something simple as the stone crafting recipes would easily screw up the game and cause players to quit.

[CwazyWabbit]

MacUser123456789, on 01 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

You need the crafting table before you can make a wooden pickaxe. Once you've made a wooden pickaxe, I don't think you need to make a stone pickaxe with the same exact method in order to learn how Minecraft works. Then the next level, iron, requires a furnace. That tutorial would not set a player up for the game very well. It's easier to just look at the wiki for a minute, which you have to do anyway to learn how to craft anything.

If you want to worry about new players, you should advocate the game actually telling you that you hold the mouse button to break a block. I kept clicking the first time, wondering if I'm just not allowed to break wood without a tool or something.

Gather wood > make planks > make workbench > craft tools (next tier from punching) > move on

Clearer?

I found this really simple to follow when I first played because it was just that, simple and this was way way back when the wiki for survival wasn't really that informative. The games had this method and tiers of tools since the start because it's designed to be easy to progress from wood to stone and maintain stone as a common and 'easily' obtainable tool set until you move onto iron.
There are absolutely no longterm benefits to changing the way this works except to make you happy, which goes against the "greater good" philosophy.
It's unlikely this idea will get enough support to go anywhere, thankfully, so I'll finalise my post with 'no support'.

[MacUser123456789]

Akiiuus, on 01 February 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Tell that to the other 2 million minecraft players, changing something simple as the stone crafting recipes would easily screw up the game and cause players to quit.

Quitting over a small recipe change? That's what I call fickleness. It takes 1 second to find out the new recipe. I'm pretty sure those people would have already quit from their first creeper interaction.

[CassiusBenard]

I give no support to this idea.

Forcing players to make stone for tools in early game would only serve as a minor and pointless annoyance in a normal game. However, the real crippling problem here is that many survival maps that have been built only give you enough materials to barely upgrade to the next tier of gear. If this is implimented, many old maps would become impossible to complete.

[MacUser123456789]

CwazyWabbit, on 01 February 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Gather wood > make planks > make workbench > craft tools (next tier from punching) > move on

How would this change affect that?
Gather wood, make planks, make table, craft wooden tools, move on... (end of the chain you described)... make a furnace... then whatever. If it's close to night, I'd make charcoal before I make the stone tools.

CassiusBenard, on 01 February 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

I give no support to this idea.

Forcing players to make stone for tools in early game would only serve as a minor and pointless annoyance in a normal game. However, the real crippling problem here is that many survival maps that have been built only give you enough materials to barely upgrade to the next tier of gear. If this is implimented, many old maps would become impossible to complete.

I don't see the problem. Simply give the players smooth stone or the materials required to make it instead of cobblestone. It would even give the survival map more "depth" in upgrades.

[MacUser123456789]

Badprenup, on 01 February 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Huh, I always seem to be swimming in Iron and Diamonds within a few MC days. To be honest I just use Diamond stuff all the time because once you get a Fortune III Pick resources are no longer an obstacle.

It depends on the player. About half the people on my server mostly use stone tools, and I use them more than you evidently do but not most of the time. I've got a few enchanted diamond picks, however. I also rarely go mining and spend my materials on extremely elaborate projects like secret bases. If I make a storage vault, it's gotta have at least an iron golem in it, the enchanting library needs gold blocks, I need a jukebox and a framed diamond pick, and my glass-on-water floor needs some iron blocks under that water

...Then there's my brother, MacSE. He's never found a diamond, ever. He only uses stone and on special occasions brings out the *gasp* iron pick. Even leather armor is too high-end. He also sucks at mining and ALWAYS dies (usually because he forgot to bring a sword and hates branch mining), so I can see why he doesn't have anything.

[Badprenup]

MacUser123456789, on 01 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

It depends on the player. About half the people on my server mostly use stone tools, and I use them more than you evidently do but not that often. I also rarely go mining and spend my materials often on extremely elaborate projects.

True, they are incredibly efficient material-wise, but I'm more concerned with speed myself. I still don't care enough that you could call me a supporter, but I wouldn't mind if they changed it.

[Arif320]

The concept of the idea is good and all but the stone tools just made the game harder.
If this was added,noobs would be ruined.

[MacUser123456789]

Arif320, on 01 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

The concept of the idea is good and all but the stone tools just made the game harder.
If this was added,noobs would be ruined.

What, it's too hardcore to use wooden tools until you can gather 3 wood, 3 cobble, and a furnace? As long as you're not charging into undead armies, a wooden sword will be fine for defending your home.

[weterman]

What is the point? No support at all.

[22398]

I live in the stone age.

Really all this does is make people have less tools. Yes, it's more realistic but it'd be even MORE realistic to remove wooden pickaxes. This would work fine on SP I guess, but the extra amounts of coal people would go through and such just make stone tools, the perfect balance of cost and efficiency, now useless. If that's what your going for, then that's it. People will just use the less realistic wooden axes and wooden pickaxes more.

No support mostly because of personal bias.

[Mettan]

So basically the topic creator suggested an unnecessary tedious extra step to make second-tier tools.
Please. tell me how changing the tool recipe to require smoothstone adds anything to the game other than inconvenience.

[KittyPr0n]

I agree with the OP 100%

You know how obsidian tools that are better than diamond are a horrible idea because obsidian is over 9,000 times as common as the diamond that you need to get it? Well, there's a similar issue with wood and cobble. Stone is more common than wood, so as soon as you get that first wood pickaxe, cobblestone tools become faster and easier to make than their inferior wooden counterparts. This isn't about realism; this is a balance issue, and replacing cobblestone tools with smoothstone tools would fix it.

[blackfire853]

Oh God not this thread AGAIN. Look,the concept is ok but really dosn't add anything special. It dosn't make the game harder,just more tedious,stone tools are a weak and basic tool. There is no need to change such a small yet vital thing to new players.

[Blitzgrutel]

I totally agree. And fore those who don't understand why:

A stone sword will be obviousely carved in a stone. If you ever try to carve a stone sword in cobblestone, you'll fail. And even if you are meticulous at max and you succeed, the sword will break at first hit because of the cement. If you want a stone sword, you have to carve it in a single piece of stone, not several cemented stones.

That's not "realism", it's simple logic.

[Ouatcheur]

Stone tools being so easy to make, I'm mainly a stone tools user. I mine a LOT, and by mining I don't mean merely spelunking without touching anything except the ores, but actually digging a lot. I like to "complete" a cave complex, fully exploring it, harvesting its ores, and "putting my dwarven mark" on it. I square off tunnels or widen them in order to make navigation easy to do and to spot and get nice stairs that stand out from the surroundings. I dig too in order to easily remember which way I went through, or to get better viewing angles to see mobs from afar. I cut down pillars to reduce the number and apparent complexity of "passages" and eventually I convert huge maze-like networks of caves and tunnels, into "completely explored mines", with stairs and smooth stone slabs everywhere, torches everywhere, fences blocking dead ends, etc.

Usually, it takes me several many-hours gaming sessions to "complete" one network (and I know how to put a" stop" somewhere, because such networks usually can easily reach quite far). So I go through stacks of pickaxes, literally.

When I explore a mineshaft, I really "fully" empty it of EVERYTHING, and afterwards all mineshaft passages have nice, plain, 3x3 straight tunnels, and I get a ton of rails, wood, fences, and stuff. Don't ask me why I find this fun, I have no idea why, but I do. Maybe after my 30th mineshaft I'll get bored of it but in the meantime, I use up a TON of pickaxes (and axes and shovels).

Thus I do not like to waste a really big fraction of my iron directly on my tools. I want to do other stuff with that iron. I'm thus the very *portrait* of the type of player that should be offended by any "nerfing" of the stone tools by making them require their cobble to be smelted first.

But as a stone tools user, I also find that the way stone tools are made straight from cobblestone, tends to cheapen the value and the usage of both the wooden tools and the iron tools.

I also think a "Tier 2" tool should involve something a little more than "Just as easy and plentiful as Tier 1, only better in all ways, including the availability of the material".  It shouldn't be made *right after* the 1st tier without some sort of special "thing" showing off the event, and in this case I thing having the furnace establishes this as a clear "break" between Tier 1 and what follows.

I disagreee that wooden tools should be seen as "Tier Zero" and stone tools as "Tier One". i.e. "make only 1 wooden pickaxe, maybe a wooden shovel, in your entire game". It should see a little bit more usefulness as that. Yeah, I agree that you still try to get over wood asap, but it should still count fully for a true Tier 1 tech level, not a "Tier Zero". Wooden stuff is NOT "tutorial". There's no tutorial in the game, everybody uses the Wiki or has someone show 'em the game.

I also agree that the tools textures look a lot more like smooth stone, and that it makes sense. Not "realistic" sense needed here, just making common sense from a pure game-play point of view (balance, looks, and just plain "common" sense aka "doesn't sound like a stupid idea" common sense -> you CARVE your stone tools out of a single block of pure stone. Because carving it out of "pieces of stone linked by cement" (which is the very definition of cobblestone), is such a weak and stupid idea.

I also think that stone tool is weird because its between two tiers where the tool is not made directly from the harvested blocks, but with a transformation step first. Admittedly, with wood its a pretty simple step, but its the "entry" tier so that's okay. And also admittedly, with diamond no transformation step is required, but damn diamonds are so rare that its quite forgivable to skip that step.

And the "noob would go crazy" argument is, needless to say, kinda moronic, because everybody not using the wiki would have a really hard time learning the game (unless he's a puzzle-lover, in which case he'd probably relish finding out the solution to a "recipe change mystery").

The other argument "it's useless 'cause i go straight to iron anyway" falls into the "because it doesn't apply to me specifically, it's a waste of time and thus it's bad idea" philosophy, which is a very selfish and stupid way to think.

The argument that it would throw things out of whack, be too problematic/costly, come on! Stone tools are just TOO easy to make. Carrying a stack of smooth stone is not that big of a sacrifice to make to get easy stone tools.

The usual gameplay if one wouldn't want to carry smooth stone would go like this: Make a lot of tools, go mining, when no more tools, drop your crafting table (or make one - not carrying wood is a stupid idea), craft furnaces (or drop the ones you carry, but mining usually means you have lots and lots of cobble), cook cobble and iron ore to replenish tools and armor, as needed. If you're intelligent, instead of waiting like a moron noob for your last tool to break, you put your crafting spot at an important intersection in your mine, add a chest beside it, start the smelting and when you're back, everything is ready. The only players the current way serves are those that want not having to use two of their brain cells for a straight and strict minimum of simple planning, because they prefer having everything served on a platter with absolutely no limitation and without delay, to be able to make new tools anywhere, anytime, "Rite Nao!", even though it's Tier *2* tools we're talking about here.

For a game balance perspective, the change would help all of the first 3 tiers see a little bit better use.

Anyway I see several solid arguments "for", while the arguments "against" seem so pitiful in comparison.

FULL SUPPORT!

[NitrogenSnow]

I like this idea. Not only does it make more sense but it widens the gap between wooden and iron tools. I hate how easy it is to go straight from wooden to iron tools within less than half a Minecraft Day with minimal effort.

Support.

[AnonTheMouse]

KeenCoyote, on 01 February 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Do you know how game braking this is? Don't say this makes the game much harder, it just waste precious time when were preparing for the night. No Support. One of the worst suggestion in my opinion.

Frankly, I find it more of a wate of time and resources to remake tools you already have, rather than focusing on creating a light source and secure shelter in the first place. Day one is all about getting a place to take shelter where mobs can't get you. Day two should be focused on making sure you don't starve. Worry about better tools and mining on day three at the earliest.

KeenCoyote, on 01 February 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Tell that to the other 2 million minecraft players, changing something simple as the stone crafting recipes would easily screw up the game and cause players to quit.

First of all, if that were so big a factor, then many players would never have stuck around, since most recipes past the very basic are a lot more complicated than "you have to cook it first". Hell it wasn't that long ago that it was still pretty common to see people suggest recipes that called for multiple of a material in one slot of the crafting grid. People have an amazing capacity for figuring things out.

In the second place, your whole premise centers on something that is a failure in the game, not the suggestion. If players would have difficulty figuring this out, it is because Minecraft does not teach them. In both the Pocket Edition and the Xbox360 versions of the game, players are told how items are crafted. Only in the PC version are they left in the dark as to what they're supposed to do. While PC Minecraft could probably do just fine without telling the player everything, the fact that "it would be too confusing a recipe" can come into play strongly suggests that some type of tutorial or help system should be added. This isn't a reason to discount the suggestion, it's a reason to investigate other ways of improving the game. There used to be a pretty good topic on the subject. You should search for it.

CassiusBenard, on 01 February 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

I give no support to this idea.

Forcing players to make stone for tools in early game would only serve as a minor and pointless annoyance in a normal game. However, the real crippling problem here is that many survival maps that have been built only give you enough materials to barely upgrade to the next tier of gear. If this is implimented, many old maps would become impossible to complete.

Many older maps are outright unplayable with the newer versions of the game as it is. I fail to see your point. Really though, the worst part of this argument is that it's talking about people's ability to play maps prepared for them by other people. Either older maps will be updated, or else they will become obsolete like many maps before them, and replaced with newer maps that take the new mechanics into account, just as it always has been. It's not like we're talking about people having to restart worlds they've sunk months of their lives on. We're talking about having to wait for someone to update their optional downloadable content. If we were really going to take that into account, we would have to tell Mojang to stop updating the game, because they're making it so people can't play their old mods anymore.

[MacUser123456789]

22398, on 01 February 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I live in the stone age.

Really all this does is make people have less tools. Yes, it's more realistic but it'd be even MORE realistic to remove wooden pickaxes. This would work fine on SP I guess, but the extra amounts of coal people would go through and such just make stone tools, the perfect balance of cost and efficiency, now useless. If that's what your going for, then that's it. People will just use the less realistic wooden axes and wooden pickaxes more.

No support mostly because of personal bias.

What's unrealistic about wooden tools? I care more about the recipe looking like the actual object.