Topic Index: Assumptions | How to Give a Good Critique |
When someone comes here and shows us their work they are looking for one of two things. Either they want to be noticed or they respect the designers in this community and want help in order to improve or begin doing textures. When giving critiques to others it is important to know how. “I love it!” Although this feels nice it is by no means helpful. “I hate it!” Although mean, it is also not helpful.
Criticism: a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
When giving feedback or criticism to others keep in mind that ultimately it is an opinion. Just because you may not think a Ninja Turtles pack (for example) is useful doesn't mean there are not 1,000's of other people who would disagree with you. It is equally as important to keep these things in mind when recieving critiques/feedback as well.
+++ Assumptions +++
What you think when posting affects the type of critique and feedback you will give to others!
Bad Critique Assumptions:Everyone should be as good as you. Everyone should know what you do. If people don't know what you do then they must be stupid. How much time something took you is the same for others.
Good Critique Assumptions: This person wants to get better. This person is posting and asking so they must want help. The work shown is a start and has potential. You appreciate that they posted asking for our help as that is a compliment in itself.
+++ How to Give a Good Critique +++
Giving useful and helpful criticism is actually very hard to do but gets a lot easier with practice. While attending college for graphic design I was forced to critique others work openly. I got to see if I offended the person on the internet we do not get that privilege. Here are some important things to note when giving critiques to others.
What is the purpose of the style they are going for?
How can the person improve upon their work?
Any resources or examples you have that may help them?
What are some good things about their texture pack?
Although it is easier to just list everything you don’t like about something it by no means helps them get better and defeats the purpose of you giving feedback/criticism. A common general rule is for every 2 negative you give 1 positive. You can also do more negative and less positive as long as the general tone to your critique is positive (but this is hard to do).
Helpful Critique
"I can see you were trying to do something different here and I think that is great. What I would suggest is to add more shading to your textures as it will help it to stand out from the crowd."
Unhelpful Critique
"Ugh, not this! Just stop."
+++ Critique Suggestions +++
Things to Critique (if having trouble)
Style - Is the pack a certain style? Does it all match that style?
Colors - Do the overall color/tone match the theme of the pack?
Blend - Do textures blend together?
Tiling - Do the textures tile well or have issues?
Originality - Is it an original idea? (Celebrate Originality, Help them stand out)
Logic - Does color and design choice have a reason? (Are they used in a way that is apparent to the user, or is grass flat & pure red and stone flat and pure green with blue speckles, etc.)
Although I know it can be frustrating to see the same things over and over we also need to keep in mind that we weren't sitting with the person when they did it. Just because we thought it took no effort doesn't mean they didn't work on it for the last day to put out what you may have just called poo and claimed took no effort. If all else fails result to what my mom told me growing up "If you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all."
Please comment and let me know what I can add in order to improve this post.
I have seen a few threads on here re critiquing and read a number of threads where lets say things end up escalating beyond that of the initial critique.
It can and will always be a little bit of a touchy subject as art in any form is a subjective matter and what one sees as one thing can be seen completely different by another. Also we are all human beings we all have different personalities, like/dislikes and thats what makes us as race quite special. It also brings with it difference of opinion, tastes and so on........... which is where things can go astray.
I agree there is good and bad critque, but this also comes from both sides the "the critquer" and "the reciever". Depending on how you speak to someone in real life you can get very different results and responses. "Please pass the Salt" or "Oi b*tch give me that salt now!" both have the same intention with VERY different deliveries and would usually be responded to with quite differing replies.
I've had my fair share of critque and given it in my time and still value it to this day as no artist or creative should ever think they are the best or not listen to others. There is ALWAYS room for improvement and sharing knowledge between other like minded people is a wonderful thing to have.
A very simple rule i learnt early on and use to this day is quite simple. If negative critique is needed that is fine, you feel that you are in a place where you can comment BUT end on something positive. Now if you really can't find a genuine positive a simple "keep trying we all have to start somewhere" type of ending will do. As a race humans don't like being told, their crap, ugly, thick, useless etc and usually a negative response of anger, sadness, disappointment, low self esteem follows.
There is also an age issue here, i for one was far less tactful and took others feelings into consideration when i was younger and yes this a young forum on the whole so its to be expected to a point.
Also theres a fustration issue....... i hope she doesn't mind me naming names but Taiine (and others) for example i think are just exhausted from repeating themselves over and over after the same repeat threads/packs time and time again. I can see that when this happens patience is lost and the way people are replied to becomes some what fogged in a angry cloud of "oh no not again"
This actually brings me on to the subject of "simple packs" but i was thinking of starting a new thread about that.
Don't get me wrong there are some beautifully creative simple packs but looking at the forums would a section for these VERY VERY simple/bucket packs not be a good idea, where people can still get advice show what they have done? I agree with many others views that packs do not get seen or appreciated for the vast numbers of simple packs crowding the forums.
The only way i can see this work is if a certain number of people comment that the pack is simple/bucket/ done a 1000 times before then the Moderators/admin would make a judgement to move it that forum/section. This is not alienating people of a lower creativity (again IMO) but keeps a organization to the forums. Its just something that came to me, i'm interested in others opinions?
All of this is my opinion, taken from life experiences and learning from others, it is not telling people what they "should" do but just food for thought
I'm actually glad you made this, because there is a lot of misconceptions on the topic of criticisms, and even criticisms of criticisms, so there is constant debate over what is acceptable, and people end up ranting or putting down people because they can't critique well. A good means of critiquing isn't hostile, which a lot of people don't understand. Being hostile and telling new pack creators that there stiff is bad and that they should feel bad is only going to discourage them from making anything anymore.
The criticisms I've seen that are hostile and unhelpful can come from a range of people from new people to the forumas al the way to regulars that have been here for a year or more. The unhelpful criticisms, if they should even be called that in such a case, are just preventing any other great packs from appearing, or at least making it much less likely. I understand the thought process behind being a bit hostile, perhaps it may get it into their head more that it needs improving, but that doesn't really help them, and sparks arguments, which also get frustrating, even to see.
That gets me into the following arguments, the bad criticisms often end up with the new pack creators getting really defensive, at which point the critic gets frustrated with the lack of cooperation, and thus a whole argument is started over something that could have simply been fixed. The arguments, for the most part, boil down to the criticism, because, unless the creator of the pack is naturally, overly defensive, which I have seen before, then it is actually the fault of the critic that the argument starts in the first place, and because the feedback was unnecessarily negative.
Another thing you should list as something one should critique on is the originality in a pack. I really think you should emphasize that one should be careful with it, but a lot of packs, mostly simple packs, but other packs as well, are almost duplicates of things that are extremely overdone. For an example besides simple packs, the idea of the Herobrine pack is something I have seen many times before. The idea of taking the Herobrine face (or the standard steve face has also been used) and pasting it onto all of the mobs and sometimes all of the blocks is an idea that has been done to death, and wasn't that great in the first place. So that is a lack of originality that one could point out, but something like that is quite likely to make the creator defensive, which is why it is something one needs to be careful with and word correctly.
Also, another thing that you could mention somewhere is the opinion side of critiques. A lot of the time, I see people telling others that there packs aren't good because it isn't really "fitting into Minecraft", or "these packs don't look good" is something else I've heard as a flat out complaint. If you have an opinion on a pack and it is positive or negative, you really need to consider what solid evidence you have that it is something that really does need improving, and isn't just something you don't like for whatever reason. That is an annoying thing that also sparks arguments, even if it is well worded, because it is a complaint about the pack that one can't really do much about other than explain why that "isn't correct", which is when it goes down the road towards another flame-filled thread.
I really think a lot of people need to see this, and possibly if enough people do, it should tone down the anger found here sometimes. I know that when I go through the main page, I sometimes see a thread title called "simple pack" or something to that extent, and I don't even bother opening it because I already know that if it has more than two posts, it would have an argument in it that I really don't need to become a part of.
On the topic of the thread itself, I don't know if this should be pinned, because it should be something everyone needs to see, especially for the new people to the forum, the "how to post screenshots" thread got pinned, and was for the same general purpose, but I feel like someone will post just afterwards and give a good reason why it shouldn't that I never thought of, because that always seems to happen...
This actually brings me on to the subject of "simple packs" but i was thinking of starting a new thread about that.
Don't get me wrong there are some beautifully creative simple packs but looking at the forums would a section for these VERY VERY simple/bucket packs not be a good idea, where people can still get advice show what they have done? I agree with many others views that packs do not get seen or appreciated for the vast numbers of simple packs crowding the forums.
The only way i can see this work is if a certain number of people comment that the pack is simple/bucket/ done a 1000 times before then the Moderators/admin would make a judgement to move it that forum/section. This is not alienating people of a lower creativity (again IMO) but keeps a organization to the forums. Its just something that came to me, i'm interested in others opinions?+
I personally think with the simple packs not responding to them is the best you can do. In the forum world if you have seen it before and don't support it than posting to it to say negative things is ultimately just bringing more attention to it. The best you can do is just ignore the posts and allow them to fade away. Although I could see the possible benefit to another area that would ultimately just say we don't think you're good enough so you need to go here. People in general just need to control their frustration and ignore posts that are redundant unless you honestly want to help the person improve.
-snip-
On the topic of the thread itself, I don't know if this should be pinned, because it should be something everyone needs to see, especially for the new people to the forum, the "how to post screenshots" thread got pinned, and was for the same general purpose, but I feel like someone will post just afterwards and give a good reason why it shouldn't that I never thought of, because that always seems to happen...
Thanks for the ideas if you can think of where to add them before I do please feel free to just quote and edit it and I can edit my OP. As far as it getting pinned I would love to see this pinned as I think it would help as a good reminder to new and old people as well as give people a good idea on what getting a critique is. I am glad both of you posted but I hope more people post as I'd really like this OP to be something a large group has added to making it a really universal thread for everyone.
I ultimately want both sides of the perspective as we may even be able to help each other to deal with some of the frustrating things. We are a community so tackling things together is usually the best way to do it!
I know it's probably a bad thing to do, but I base my criticism on effort. If the creator tried their best, then I'll try to give the best input that I can. On the other side of the spectrum, if the creator evidently didn't try (Things such as bucket fills, lazy edits, random pixel scribbles, etc.), then my criticism will reflect that. Generally, I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but you have to put in something to get something out of it.
Even though I must agree that some just seem to have done nothing at all, it's really hard to judge something without even knowing whose behind it and what's the story about.
For them putting it on line means there seeking attention one way or the other.
There is absolutely no reason to be rude and it's best to just say nothing or be helpful even if this is very critical.
Also keep in mind that although you try to trigger people by poking them, they will most likely not see this that way.
That's the hard part of writing comments.
Hidden messages are pretty much always being misread.
I agree, also "effort" to some is different to others. To the majority of people a detailed pack whether "simple" or "HD" will look like it has had much time and creativity put into it. However someone starting out and say using a graphics program for the first time, learning to edit a terrain file and making some simple changes would see this as effort and a achievement that they are proud of.
This it not something to be knocked as we ALL started somewhere. The real issue is the frequency of the very simple packs appearing and people feeling like a stuck record repeating or pasting links to the same advice, hence why I suggested in essence a novice area for people starting out. The interest in creating Minecraft packs is just going to grow and grow........I believe Mojang said several million copies were sold over the Christmas holiday.
Of course as Justproud said, we could just ignore/not respond to the threads but that's IMO not what a community like this is about. We all need a push/advice another pair of eyes to spot issues, and theres great number of talented people on here who can/do pass on their knowledge.
One other thing i learnt while making games for many years a GREAT idea can come from a bad idea and a not so great person can become AMAZING with the right advice/encouragement rather than being shot down or ignored.
I personally see it as a organization issue as the volume increases, and the frustration that's very evident would die down if this could be addressed. I would be interested to hear what Admin's/Mods views are as the forum must be significantly increasing in members?
1. People that can't take criticism. Many of the new "texturers" (basically people who somehow know how to operate a computer) will do something and be satisfied with the result, no matter how bad, and use their lack of knowledge on texturing as an excuse to shut out all attempts of criticism. No matter what tone, or effort many will go to in order to help them, they take everything as an insult instead of an act of kindness and attempt to help someone get better.
2. People who constantly post at people from #1. I have seen quite a few people who spend quite a bit of time posting criticism on bad texture packs giving criticism, and it usually ends up in the OP arguing with them. I feel these people have been angered by the attitudes of the #1 people, and it caused them to be like they are now. I say this, because before I was a mod, this was me. It made me mad to see so many people breaking the rules and posting simple packs. Then one day I just decided to ignore people like the #1s because it is an unwinnable war that only leads to trouble. Yes, I know ignoring it will not help the community, but I feel I can't help most of them anyways, and if they DO want help, then they should be posting in texture discussion (erra, here) where it is more fitting, and they are more likely to get help. However, the times when I DO give someone advice and they ignore it or rationalize it out/shoot it down, I'M OUT. It's just not worth trying to help someone who shuts it out.
________________________
Also, Justproud2b, in the "Things to Critique" section, I think you should add something along the lines of (feel free to use it)
Logic - Does color and design choice have a reason? (Are they used in a way that is apparent to the user, or is grass flat & pure red and stone flat and pure green with blue speckles, ect.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
Good to have your thoughts on here Lemon. Correct me if i'm wrong but it comes across that the VERY simple packs are "usually" done by some very young individuals. I don't see any issue with the more (imo) creative packs from what I've read in the time I've been here. People give crits and the OP usually listens and is thankful for the advice. I guess what i'm saying is I personally on here and in the real world would treat a young person different to someone older rather than a blanket rule of you all get the same.
It's just a little more food for thought for who you are critiquing as well as what you are critiquing <---- something you could add somewhere Just proud as its rather relevant.
On your comment of they continue to not listen then "I'm out" you at least tried. In one particular thread i saw you REALLY tried but you can't win them all.
Good to have your thoughts on here Lemon. Correct me if i'm wrong but it comes across that the VERY simple packs are "usually" done by some very young individuals. I don't see any issue with the more (imo) creative packs from what I've read in the time I've been here. People give crits and the OP usually listens and is thankful for the advice. I guess what i'm saying is I personally on here and in the real world would treat a young person different to someone older rather than a blanket rule of you all get the same.
True. But honesty, there are a few good young'ins that know their way around the pencil tool here in texture discussion. A few who have issues that inhibit their texturing abilities (like being colorblind), yet despite both they are still great artists. Many of the bad packs by new young artists use it as an EXCUSE for it to be bad, but honestly, it isn't a valid excuse, and it doesn't mean I should be impressed. This is the internet, so people usually take things at face value. Just like IRL there is a time and a place for everything, like simple packs going to PMC. That and they have the whole forum and the WHOLE INTERNET at their disposal (where life can not always be so easy) so I don't think it carries over so easily.
On your comment of they continue to not listen then "I'm out" you at least tried. In one particular thread i saw you REALLY tried but you can't win them all.
Yeah, that's probably the same thread that INSPIRED me to use that phrasing.... never would I have thought that would be the response, with the OP actually calling out one of the people in other threads.....
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
About the age matter- I have noticed, and would just like to point out, that many of the most popular pack are created by adults- Dokucraft, Sphax, LB Photo Realism, Misa, Derivation, Glimmar's Steampunk, VonDommcraft, Summerfields, Wayukian, Eld, Thistle/Wolfhound, all of Steelfeather's packs... I'm just saying that I think adults are going to inherently be better at art, and if they're getting involved in texturing on the Minecraft Forums than they probably have some skills. I think it's fairly easy to distinguish who's going to some screaming 11-year old and someone who actually knows what they're doing by the quality of they're art and should be approached accordingly. I'm not saying that all good packs are made by adults, but I think that most "bad" packs are probably made by kids.
About the age matter- I have noticed, and would just like to point out, that many of the most popular pack are created by adults- Dokucraft, Sphax, LB Photo Realism, Misa, Derivation, Glimmar's Steampunk, VonDommcraft, Summerfields, Wayukian, Eld, Thistle/Wolfhound, all of Steelfeather's packs... I'm just saying that I think adults are going to inherently be better at art, and if they're getting involved in texturing on the Minecraft Forums than they probably have some skills. I think it's fairly easy to distinguish who's going to some screaming 11-year old and someone who actually knows what they're doing by the quality of they're art and should be approached accordingly. I'm not saying that all good packs are made by adults, but I think that most "bad" packs are probably made by kids.
Hear what you're saying Lemon, and you are right with what you have said Zamaj................ although there's some dam good art coming from some young minds that can only get even better! This is often overshadowed by the VERY simple packs bumping them out of the way and people not seeing it.
Don't get me wrong or in away think that i'm putting young people down, i have kids. I'm BLOWN away by the talent on this forum, some could quite easily put many paid artists to shame and teach them a thing or two! As i expressed in another thread i hope they can find a way to take this talent into a career if they chose to go down that path There is a underlying fact that VERY simple packs come from a much younger age group than the already young majority of artists on here.
Which brings me onto........... you don't have to be impressed but someone just starting out is easy to spot and with a little more tact in how we/others guide (them could help unleash a raw hidden talent lurking beneath.
I agree with you Syclone- I was just talking about how to approach them- just saying that it's fairly safe to assume that a no-effort pack is done by a kid. I know that lots of kids on this forum have a lot of potential and turn out excellent work. I was just pointing out that it would probably be a good idea to keep age in mind when approaching a bucket fill maker.
About the age matter- I have noticed, and would just like to point out, that many of the most popular pack are created by adults- Dokucraft, Sphax, LB Photo Realism, Misa, Derivation, Glimmar's Steampunk, VonDommcraft, Summerfields, Wayukian, Eld, Thistle/Wolfhound, all of Steelfeather's packs... I'm just saying that I think adults are going to inherently be better at art, and if they're getting involved in texturing on the Minecraft Forums than they probably have some skills. I think it's fairly easy to distinguish who's going to some screaming 11-year old and someone who actually knows what they're doing by the quality of they're art and should be approached accordingly. I'm not saying that all good packs are made by adults, but I think that most "bad" packs are probably made by kids.
I can see your point, but don't completely agree with it. I'm not sure what age you're referring to, but I know of some packs that are good, even compared to those mentioned packs, and were made by someone that I imagine you would classify as "young", or at least not adults. While my pack isn't nearly as good or popular as those packs, I don't think my pack is as bad as the constant simple packs, bucket fill packs, etc, and I just turned 15, so not yet being an adult won't always define the quality. Maybe in the case of really young users (11, 10... maybe even less? I wouldn't be surprised, some people I've seen act like it), then it could be true, but I think it has more to do with the dedication, and how much the person really enjoys the work. If they are doing it for the right reasons.
Edit: My spell and grammar checks took me until someone answered you, and you answered back!.. I've gotta get faster with that.
Yes, as I said, I'm not saying that all good packs are made by adults, but I think that most "bad" packs are probably made by kids. (I can never get something typed before someone else responds.)
Ha this thread is moving fast G You may only be 15 but you come across wiser and older than your years in your maturity and skills as do many others.......... there will be some not as fortunate that may require a little softer approach in helping them improve and when i mean "young" i'm talking pree teen seems to be bucket fill territory 10,11 etc.
I think this is the crux of the situation as Zamaj said I was just pointing out that it would probably be a good idea to keep age in mind when approaching a bucket fill maker"
Well- I'm a year younger than corner_G, so age doesn't always have a lot to do with it, as I consider myself rather mature and I certainly don't make bucket fill packs...
Just evidence that younger people can be good forum citizens.
Well- I'm a year younger than corner_G, so age doesn't always have a lot to do with it, as I consider myself rather mature and I certainly don't make bucket fill packs...
Just evidence that younger people can be good forum citizens.
I think we are all in agreement that we are all talking kids. Don't get me started on how cool your pack is looking and its even nicer to hear you have a lot of years ahead <-------- I wont use young
True. But honesty, there are a few good young'ins that know their way around the pencil tool here in texture discussion. A few who have issues that inhibit their texturing abilities (like being colorblind), yet despite both they are still great artists. Many of the bad packs by new young artists use it as an EXCUSE for it to be bad, but honestly, it isn't a valid excuse, and it doesn't mean I should be impressed. This is the internet, so people usually take things at face value. Just like IRL there is a time and a place for everything, like simple packs going to PMC. That and they have the whole forum and the WHOLE INTERNET at their disposal (where life can not always be so easy) so I don't think it carries over so easily.
Yeah, that's probably the same thread that INSPIRED me to use that phrasing.... never would I have thought that would be the response, with the OP actually calling out one of the people in other threads.....
This is another reason I wanted to create this thread. I wanted this to be a place for us to improve the way we critique but also be here for when we get that person who gets defensive than we also have this to point out what a critique is all about. I agree if people are going to remain defensive then the best thing we can do is just stop as it then gets us no where.
Yes, as I said, I'm not saying that all good packs are made by adults, but I think that most "bad" packs are probably made by kids. (I can never get something typed before someone else responds.)
I think we are all in agreement that we are all talking kids. Don't get me started on how cool your pack is looking and its even nicer to hear you have a lot of years ahead <-------- I wont use young
I agree that lack of maturity is a huge part of not receiving/giving proper feedback but I can honestly say I started doing graphics (self-taught) when I was 12. I became part of a graphics online community who had a standard for criticism. Yes we had people who never took the stuff well but overall it was noticed that the delivery in your critique had a lot to do with it.
When I started I used to make things like this.
Yes, it was simple but I was proud of it at the time. It is basically one huge gradient. I received feedback that was positive and helped me improve. Due to my receiving such feedback and keeping at it I now almost 20 years later can do vector art like this.
So Although I agree maturity in receiving feedback is important. The delivery of it is even more important. I was a sensitive child and I know had I gotten feedback like some of the feedback I see here I would have stopped and probably have missed out on something I now consider a huge hobby and career.
edit: I think it would be good if I also added a section in OP for how to receive/take feedback. Should it go first or last?
Topic Index: Assumptions | How to Give a Good Critique |
When someone comes here and shows us their work they are looking for one of two things. Either they want to be noticed or they respect the designers in this community and want help in order to improve or begin doing textures. When giving critiques to others it is important to know how. “I love it!” Although this feels nice it is by no means helpful. “I hate it!” Although mean, it is also not helpful.
Criticism:
a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
When giving feedback or criticism to others keep in mind that ultimately it is an opinion. Just because you may not think a Ninja Turtles pack (for example) is useful doesn't mean there are not 1,000's of other people who would disagree with you. It is equally as important to keep these things in mind when recieving critiques/feedback as well.
What you think when posting affects the type of critique and feedback you will give to others!
Bad Critique Assumptions: Everyone should be as good as you. Everyone should know what you do. If people don't know what you do then they must be stupid. How much time something took you is the same for others.
Good Critique Assumptions: This person wants to get better. This person is posting and asking so they must want help. The work shown is a start and has potential. You appreciate that they posted asking for our help as that is a compliment in itself.
Giving useful and helpful criticism is actually very hard to do but gets a lot easier with practice. While attending college for graphic design I was forced to critique others work openly. I got to see if I offended the person on the internet we do not get that privilege. Here are some important things to note when giving critiques to others.
Helpful Critique
Unhelpful Critique
Things to Critique (if having trouble)
Please comment and let me know what I can add in order to improve this post.
It can and will always be a little bit of a touchy subject as art in any form is a subjective matter and what one sees as one thing can be seen completely different by another. Also we are all human beings we all have different personalities, like/dislikes and thats what makes us as race quite special. It also brings with it difference of opinion, tastes and so on........... which is where things can go astray.
I agree there is good and bad critque, but this also comes from both sides the "the critquer" and "the reciever". Depending on how you speak to someone in real life you can get very different results and responses. "Please pass the Salt" or "Oi b*tch give me that salt now!" both have the same intention with VERY different deliveries and would usually be responded to with quite differing replies.
I've had my fair share of critque and given it in my time and still value it to this day as no artist or creative should ever think they are the best or not listen to others. There is ALWAYS room for improvement and sharing knowledge between other like minded people is a wonderful thing to have.
A very simple rule i learnt early on and use to this day is quite simple. If negative critique is needed that is fine, you feel that you are in a place where you can comment BUT end on something positive. Now if you really can't find a genuine positive a simple "keep trying we all have to start somewhere" type of ending will do. As a race humans don't like being told, their crap, ugly, thick, useless etc and usually a negative response of anger, sadness, disappointment, low self esteem follows.
There is also an age issue here, i for one was far less tactful and took others feelings into consideration when i was younger and yes this a young forum on the whole so its to be expected to a point.
Also theres a fustration issue....... i hope she doesn't mind me naming names but Taiine (and others) for example i think are just exhausted from repeating themselves over and over after the same repeat threads/packs time and time again. I can see that when this happens patience is lost and the way people are replied to becomes some what fogged in a angry cloud of "oh no not again"
This actually brings me on to the subject of "simple packs" but i was thinking of starting a new thread about that.
Don't get me wrong there are some beautifully creative simple packs but looking at the forums would a section for these VERY VERY simple/bucket packs not be a good idea, where people can still get advice show what they have done? I agree with many others views that packs do not get seen or appreciated for the vast numbers of simple packs crowding the forums.
The only way i can see this work is if a certain number of people comment that the pack is simple/bucket/ done a 1000 times before then the Moderators/admin would make a judgement to move it that forum/section. This is not alienating people of a lower creativity (again IMO) but keeps a organization to the forums. Its just something that came to me, i'm interested in others opinions?
All of this is my opinion, taken from life experiences and learning from others, it is not telling people what they "should" do but just food for thought
Really sorry this post ended up rather long!
I'm actually glad you made this, because there is a lot of misconceptions on the topic of criticisms, and even criticisms of criticisms, so there is constant debate over what is acceptable, and people end up ranting or putting down people because they can't critique well. A good means of critiquing isn't hostile, which a lot of people don't understand. Being hostile and telling new pack creators that there stiff is bad and that they should feel bad is only going to discourage them from making anything anymore.
The criticisms I've seen that are hostile and unhelpful can come from a range of people from new people to the forumas al the way to regulars that have been here for a year or more. The unhelpful criticisms, if they should even be called that in such a case, are just preventing any other great packs from appearing, or at least making it much less likely. I understand the thought process behind being a bit hostile, perhaps it may get it into their head more that it needs improving, but that doesn't really help them, and sparks arguments, which also get frustrating, even to see.
That gets me into the following arguments, the bad criticisms often end up with the new pack creators getting really defensive, at which point the critic gets frustrated with the lack of cooperation, and thus a whole argument is started over something that could have simply been fixed. The arguments, for the most part, boil down to the criticism, because, unless the creator of the pack is naturally, overly defensive, which I have seen before, then it is actually the fault of the critic that the argument starts in the first place, and because the feedback was unnecessarily negative.
Another thing you should list as something one should critique on is the originality in a pack. I really think you should emphasize that one should be careful with it, but a lot of packs, mostly simple packs, but other packs as well, are almost duplicates of things that are extremely overdone. For an example besides simple packs, the idea of the Herobrine pack is something I have seen many times before. The idea of taking the Herobrine face (or the standard steve face has also been used) and pasting it onto all of the mobs and sometimes all of the blocks is an idea that has been done to death, and wasn't that great in the first place. So that is a lack of originality that one could point out, but something like that is quite likely to make the creator defensive, which is why it is something one needs to be careful with and word correctly.
Also, another thing that you could mention somewhere is the opinion side of critiques. A lot of the time, I see people telling others that there packs aren't good because it isn't really "fitting into Minecraft", or "these packs don't look good" is something else I've heard as a flat out complaint. If you have an opinion on a pack and it is positive or negative, you really need to consider what solid evidence you have that it is something that really does need improving, and isn't just something you don't like for whatever reason. That is an annoying thing that also sparks arguments, even if it is well worded, because it is a complaint about the pack that one can't really do much about other than explain why that "isn't correct", which is when it goes down the road towards another flame-filled thread.
I really think a lot of people need to see this, and possibly if enough people do, it should tone down the anger found here sometimes. I know that when I go through the main page, I sometimes see a thread title called "simple pack" or something to that extent, and I don't even bother opening it because I already know that if it has more than two posts, it would have an argument in it that I really don't need to become a part of.
On the topic of the thread itself, I don't know if this should be pinned, because it should be something everyone needs to see, especially for the new people to the forum, the "how to post screenshots" thread got pinned, and was for the same general purpose, but I feel like someone will post just afterwards and give a good reason why it shouldn't that I never thought of, because that always seems to happen...
It seems my post got rather lengthy too!
By the way, nice idea with giving the definition!
"And with that, POW! I'm gone." ---Lord Crump
I personally think with the simple packs not responding to them is the best you can do. In the forum world if you have seen it before and don't support it than posting to it to say negative things is ultimately just bringing more attention to it. The best you can do is just ignore the posts and allow them to fade away. Although I could see the possible benefit to another area that would ultimately just say we don't think you're good enough so you need to go here. People in general just need to control their frustration and ignore posts that are redundant unless you honestly want to help the person improve.
Thanks for the ideas if you can think of where to add them before I do please feel free to just quote and edit it and I can edit my OP. As far as it getting pinned I would love to see this pinned as I think it would help as a good reminder to new and old people as well as give people a good idea on what getting a critique is. I am glad both of you posted but I hope more people post as I'd really like this OP to be something a large group has added to making it a really universal thread for everyone.
I ultimately want both sides of the perspective as we may even be able to help each other to deal with some of the frustrating things. We are a community so tackling things together is usually the best way to do it!
I agree, also "effort" to some is different to others. To the majority of people a detailed pack whether "simple" or "HD" will look like it has had much time and creativity put into it. However someone starting out and say using a graphics program for the first time, learning to edit a terrain file and making some simple changes would see this as effort and a achievement that they are proud of.
This it not something to be knocked as we ALL started somewhere. The real issue is the frequency of the very simple packs appearing and people feeling like a stuck record repeating or pasting links to the same advice, hence why I suggested in essence a novice area for people starting out. The interest in creating Minecraft packs is just going to grow and grow........I believe Mojang said several million copies were sold over the Christmas holiday.
Of course as Justproud said, we could just ignore/not respond to the threads but that's IMO not what a community like this is about. We all need a push/advice another pair of eyes to spot issues, and theres great number of talented people on here who can/do pass on their knowledge.
One other thing i learnt while making games for many years a GREAT idea can come from a bad idea and a not so great person can become AMAZING with the right advice/encouragement rather than being shot down or ignored.
I personally see it as a organization issue as the volume increases, and the frustration that's very evident would die down if this could be addressed. I would be interested to hear what Admin's/Mods views are as the forum must be significantly increasing in members?
1. People that can't take criticism. Many of the new "texturers" (basically people who somehow know how to operate a computer) will do something and be satisfied with the result, no matter how bad, and use their lack of knowledge on texturing as an excuse to shut out all attempts of criticism. No matter what tone, or effort many will go to in order to help them, they take everything as an insult instead of an act of kindness and attempt to help someone get better.
2. People who constantly post at people from #1. I have seen quite a few people who spend quite a bit of time posting criticism on bad texture packs giving criticism, and it usually ends up in the OP arguing with them. I feel these people have been angered by the attitudes of the #1 people, and it caused them to be like they are now. I say this, because before I was a mod, this was me. It made me mad to see so many people breaking the rules and posting simple packs. Then one day I just decided to ignore people like the #1s because it is an unwinnable war that only leads to trouble. Yes, I know ignoring it will not help the community, but I feel I can't help most of them anyways, and if they DO want help, then they should be posting in texture discussion (erra, here) where it is more fitting, and they are more likely to get help. However, the times when I DO give someone advice and they ignore it or rationalize it out/shoot it down, I'M OUT. It's just not worth trying to help someone who shuts it out.
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Also, Justproud2b, in the "Things to Critique" section, I think you should add something along the lines of (feel free to use it)
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
Good to have your thoughts on here Lemon. Correct me if i'm wrong but it comes across that the VERY simple packs are "usually" done by some very young individuals. I don't see any issue with the more (imo) creative packs from what I've read in the time I've been here. People give crits and the OP usually listens and is thankful for the advice. I guess what i'm saying is I personally on here and in the real world would treat a young person different to someone older rather than a blanket rule of you all get the same.
It's just a little more food for thought for who you are critiquing as well as what you are critiquing <---- something you could add somewhere Just proud as its rather relevant.
On your comment of they continue to not listen then "I'm out" you at least tried. In one particular thread i saw you REALLY tried but you can't win them all.
True. But honesty, there are a few good young'ins that know their way around the pencil tool here in texture discussion. A few who have issues that inhibit their texturing abilities (like being colorblind), yet despite both they are still great artists. Many of the bad packs by new young artists use it as an EXCUSE for it to be bad, but honestly, it isn't a valid excuse, and it doesn't mean I should be impressed. This is the internet, so people usually take things at face value. Just like IRL there is a time and a place for everything, like simple packs going to PMC. That and they have the whole forum and the WHOLE INTERNET at their disposal (where life can not always be so easy) so I don't think it carries over so easily.
Yeah, that's probably the same thread that INSPIRED me to use that phrasing.... never would I have thought that would be the response, with the OP actually calling out one of the people in other threads.....
"I'm an outsider by choice, but not truly.
It’s the unpleasantness of the system that keeps me out.
I’d rather be in, in a good system. That’s where my discontent comes from:
being forced to choose to stay outside.
My advice: Just keep movin’ straight ahead.
Every now and then you find yourself in a different place."
-George Carlin
Hear what you're saying Lemon, and you are right with what you have said Zamaj................ although there's some dam good art coming from some young minds that can only get even better! This is often overshadowed by the VERY simple packs bumping them out of the way and people not seeing it.
Don't get me wrong or in away think that i'm putting young people down, i have kids. I'm BLOWN away by the talent on this forum, some could quite easily put many paid artists to shame and teach them a thing or two! As i expressed in another thread i hope they can find a way to take this talent into a career if they chose to go down that path There is a underlying fact that VERY simple packs come from a much younger age group than the already young majority of artists on here.
Which brings me onto........... you don't have to be impressed but someone just starting out is easy to spot and with a little more tact in how we/others guide (them could help unleash a raw hidden talent lurking beneath.
I can see your point, but don't completely agree with it. I'm not sure what age you're referring to, but I know of some packs that are good, even compared to those mentioned packs, and were made by someone that I imagine you would classify as "young", or at least not adults. While my pack isn't nearly as good or popular as those packs, I don't think my pack is as bad as the constant simple packs, bucket fill packs, etc, and I just turned 15, so not yet being an adult won't always define the quality. Maybe in the case of really young users (11, 10... maybe even less? I wouldn't be surprised, some people I've seen act like it), then it could be true, but I think it has more to do with the dedication, and how much the person really enjoys the work. If they are doing it for the right reasons.
Edit: My spell and grammar checks took me until someone answered you, and you answered back!.. I've gotta get faster with that.
"And with that, POW! I'm gone." ---Lord Crump
(I can never get something typed before someone else responds.)
I think this is the crux of the situation as Zamaj said I was just pointing out that it would probably be a good idea to keep age in mind when approaching a bucket fill maker"
Christ i'm an old goat on here! lol
Just evidence that younger people can be good forum citizens.
I think we are all in agreement that we are all talking kids. Don't get me started on how cool your pack is looking and its even nicer to hear you have a lot of years ahead <-------- I wont use young
This is another reason I wanted to create this thread. I wanted this to be a place for us to improve the way we critique but also be here for when we get that person who gets defensive than we also have this to point out what a critique is all about. I agree if people are going to remain defensive then the best thing we can do is just stop as it then gets us no where.
I agree that lack of maturity is a huge part of not receiving/giving proper feedback but I can honestly say I started doing graphics (self-taught) when I was 12. I became part of a graphics online community who had a standard for criticism. Yes we had people who never took the stuff well but overall it was noticed that the delivery in your critique had a lot to do with it.
When I started I used to make things like this.
Yes, it was simple but I was proud of it at the time. It is basically one huge gradient. I received feedback that was positive and helped me improve. Due to my receiving such feedback and keeping at it I now almost 20 years later can do vector art like this.
So Although I agree maturity in receiving feedback is important. The delivery of it is even more important. I was a sensitive child and I know had I gotten feedback like some of the feedback I see here I would have stopped and probably have missed out on something I now consider a huge hobby and career.
edit: I think it would be good if I also added a section in OP for how to receive/take feedback. Should it go first or last?