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Evolution: What's not to understand?

evolution science reality

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#21

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

View PostJDawgMillenium, on 13 December 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Well, they have the freedom to believe whatever they wish. If everyone believed what you did, the world would be a horrible place (in theory).

The only real dislike should come when those people try to impact laws and education. Kids shouldn't grow up with their only knowledge on dinosaurs limited to toys. If parents are really so concerned, they should either tell their children to not believe the material or just get out of the way entirely and let their posterity make their own decisions about their faith.


Why would the world be more terrible that it already is? Think about all the atrocities of history that happened because of religion. I shouldn't even have to name them.
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#22

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostBorkefer, on 14 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Because its not a delusion to us. We believe in God because we have faith and apparently that isnt enough for people to let us do what we want. It isnt just an idea to us, its a faith and something that we believe we should put our faith in. You can not believe in a God if you want Im not stopping you and I dont know anyone who is. It makes me want to throw up that we can't be allowed to practice our beliefs without being called idiots by people who don't be believe in any deity. That right there is probably one of the main reasons there is so much tension in this area.

Oh you're completely free to believe a god does or doesn't exist. What irks people is when you believe something is true even when the facts say otherwise.

Lets say there is a closed box. Person A believes the closed box contains a spoon and goes around believing that. Then person B comes along and opens the box, revealing a fork. The obvious thing for person A to do is abandon his belief and adjust it to accept the fork. Person B is going to question A's sanity if he keeps insisting that the fork is a spoon.

Replace culinary utensils by creation mythology and evolution and you have the situation we find ourselves in. As long as the box is closed you're free to believe what you want. As soon as it is opened you sadly have to either deny reality itself or adjust your beliefs.
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#23

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:37 PM

And the box was opened a LONG time ago.
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#24

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:45 PM

Great weve created another religion thread.
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#25

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

No, this is a SCIENCE thread. It could also be considered an anti religion thread.
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#26

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

What if the evolutionists and creationists are both wrong, and we're just characters in a vast computer simulation being run by an alien species?  What if everything we think we know is really just our imagination, and nothing actually works the way we think it does? Posted Image

#27

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

View PostDarkPonzu, on 14 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

What if the evolutionists and creationists are both wrong, and we're just characters in a vast computer simulation being run by an alien species?  What if everything we think we know is really just our imagination, and nothing actually works the way we think it does? Posted Image
Is it wrong for me to say Harry potter is a boy because he isn't real? If the earth does turn out to not be real, evolution is still true within the laws of this fictional world.

#28

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostYourself, on 14 December 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

Every single living organism is an intermediate.   As for the article:

In fact, most living organisms are NOT intermediates; they are dead ends. A staggering number of organisms die without leaving any offspring.

But every single creature that DOES have offspring is an intermediate, of course.



View PostBorkefer, on 14 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Because its not a delusion to us. We believe in God because we have faith and apparently that isnt enough for people to let us do what we want. It isnt just an idea to us, its a faith and something that we believe we should put our faith in. You can not believe in a God if you want Im not stopping you and I dont know anyone who is. It makes me want to throw up that we can't be allowed to practice our beliefs without being called idiots by people who don't be believe in any deity. That right there is probably one of the main reasons there is so much tension in this area.

Well, you're right that it's not a delusion to you, but by itself that means absolutely nothing; that's what it means for something to be a delusion, that the deluded person thinks it's real. And as for being called idiots, well, I agree that such things ought generally not to be said, as it's rude and unhelpful. But we SHOULD be able to speak up about things on which we disagree, and we ought to be able to tell each other that we respectfully think the other is wrong. And on the matter of evolution, I happen to think you're very very badly wrong indeed, though I don't think you're necessarily an idiot for it (because it's kind of the default position for humans to be mistaken about things).


With regard to the original post: Actually, evolution is a remarkably subtle and easily misunderstood theory. I myself didn't quite get it until I was an undergraduate at university, mainly because I never really sat down to think about the mechanism. When I finally DID devote the time to think about it, it hit me like a lightning bolt, like seeing the proof and suddenly understanding exactly WHY Pythagoras' Theorem is correct instead of simply accepting it on trust. Darwin's theory of Natural Selection was absolutely brilliant in its elegance and simplicity, but if you just think it's about which species begat which and not HOW, you can entirely miss the point. Lots of people have proposed species changing over time, but it was Darwin (and Wallace) who figured out how and why.

I don't blame people for not understanding it, because it's not obvious until you do understand it. I actually DO kind of blame people for believing it without understanding it.
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#29

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostJDawgMillenium, on 13 December 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Mostly because of religious beliefs...I thought that was obvious enough.

View PostAchilles, on 13 December 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Religious reasons. You could ask that exact same question about religion in my opinion.
Both incorrect. The lack of belief in evolution is not directly related to religion... It is simple human ignorance.
A single person who does not believe in religion nor evolution would dismiss the argument that this is the fault of religion. And these people do exist. For example, this fellow right here: http://www.godlikepr...sage1415127/pg1

Edit: More here:
http://www.washingto...isrc=newsletter
This article states findings mentioning '9% of atheists reported being skeptical of Evolution'.

It is simply a lot of people who are very misguided and/or simply just ignorant about general science and the facts and evidence supporting evolution.

Society and many other factors, including religion, do play some part in this ignorance, but the essential factor is that it is not just limited to religion, but is simply just plain ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject.

View Postabpop, on 14 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

No, this is a SCIENCE thread. It could also be considered an anti religion thread.
No, in no conceivable way could this topic be considered an "anti religion thread" unless you try to make it one, in which case you would be derailing your own topic as well as not making any sense at all.

Science is not opposed to religion, nor is religion opposed to science.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken, and this includes Creationists and Atheists alike.

#30

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

It is just ignorance.

#31

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Because it is much easier to explain to people that the earth and universe was made by some magical being than explaining how single celled organisms evolved.
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#32

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:41 PM

View PostRalath0n, on 14 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Oh you're completely free to believe a god does or doesn't exist. What irks people is when you believe something is true even when the facts say otherwise.

Lets say there is a closed box. Person A believes the closed box contains a spoon and goes around believing that. Then person B comes along and opens the box, revealing a fork. The obvious thing for person A to do is abandon his belief and adjust it to accept the fork. Person B is going to question A's sanity if he keeps insisting that the fork is a spoon.

Replace culinary utensils by creation mythology and evolution and you have the situation we find ourselves in. As long as the box is closed you're free to believe what you want. As soon as it is opened you sadly have to either deny reality itself or adjust your beliefs.
This. Is a perfect analogy. Why do religious continue to say that the fork is a spoon even though the proof is staring them in the face? It makes 0 sense. You just cannot question things like this. We aren't even asking you to just trust us. Go to a museum and ask them. They'll also say that it is a fork. Everyone who is not as ignorant as you will tell you the same thing.

Rufus said:

Some people really need to stay away from the government propaganda department. Let the brain-washing machines have a day off, they must need maintenance by now.

#33

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

I just want to shut something down right now. This is not an anti-religion thread, as that is not only a generalization of religious people but also of atheists, along with an overall blending of religious beliefs.

Religion and evolution (or science, for that matter) are in no way incompatible. The myth that has developed around that is totally ridiculous, and totally unsupported. Some people use religion as their reason for not believing evolution is true, that is their folly. It is not the fault of the particular religion at all.

I have heard at least 7-8 times on this topic people saying "religious people" and then following it with things such as "why don't they think evolution is true", or, as is right above me, "why do religious continue to say the fork is a spoon". "The religious" contain a huge variety of people that come in every mindset. Belief in evolution is not even close to being a tenet of being religious.

So just to dispel the myth that every religious person believes that evolution is not true:

Hi. I'm ErasmoGnome, a United Methodist, and I think evolution is true along with most of modern science.
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#34

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:37 PM

Do I believe in evolution? Yes. Do I believe we came from monkeys? No. I believe evolution only supports God the way I see it.

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#35

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:44 PM

View PostHellfire, on 14 December 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Do I believe in evolution? Yes. Do I believe we came from monkeys? No. I believe evolution only supports God the way I see it.

Why don't you think humans came from monkeys(Or rather, great apes)?

You have any information that disproves all the homonid fossils or provides a better explanation?
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#36

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:48 PM

View PostErasmoGnome, on 14 December 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Religion and evolution (or science, for that matter) are in no way incompatible. The myth that has developed around that is totally ridiculous, and totally unsupported. Some people use religion as their reason for not believing evolution is true, that is their folly. It is not the fault of the particular religion at all.

That depends on your view of religion. Many scientific theories directly contradict biblical scripture, including evolution. Some people adapt their religious beliefs to account for our greater understanding of the world. Other people believe that the bible is literally true and deny anything that contradicts it, except for the parts of the bible that are self-contradictory.

Also, humans didn't come from monkeys. Monkeys and humans are descended from a common ancestor.

#37

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:48 PM

View PostCosmicSpore, on 14 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Both incorrect. The lack of belief in evolution is not directly related to religion... It is simple human ignorance.
A single person who does not believe in religion nor evolution would dismiss the argument that this is the fault of religion. And these people do exist. For example, this fellow right here: http://www.godlikepr...sage1415127/pg1

Edit: More here:
http://www.washingto...isrc=newsletter
This article states findings mentioning '9% of atheists reported being skeptical of Evolution'.

It is simply a lot of people who are very misguided and/or simply just ignorant about general science and the facts and evidence supporting evolution.

Society and many other factors, including religion, do play some part in this ignorance, but the essential factor is that it is not just limited to religion, but is simply just plain ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject.


No, in no conceivable way could this topic be considered an "anti religion thread" unless you try to make it one, in which case you would be derailing your own topic as well as not making any sense at all.

Science is not opposed to religion, nor is religion opposed to science.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken, and this includes Creationists and Atheists alike.


Well I started this thread for TWO reasons: 1. to discuss evolution 2. to discuss religion
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#38

Samurai_White328

Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostHellfire, on 14 December 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Do I believe in evolution? Yes. Do I believe we came from monkeys? No. I believe evolution only supports God the way I see it.

Your right, we didnt come from "Monkeys" we came from and animal ancestor that was APE LIKE, why does no one understand this?
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#39

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:07 AM

Quote

But every single creature that DOES have offspring is an intermediate, of course.

Yes, thank you for that correction, that is what I intended to say.
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#40

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

View PostTravis, on 14 December 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

No. Evolution is a fact. Evolution via natural selection is a scientific theory. Scientific theories are a conglomerate of facts.
Damn you travis, correcting me all the time.

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