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[jakus12]

pepsi_kid, on 28 November 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Your just making it more pathetic. If you think it is pathetic why are you even on this topic?

Other people frequently posting on this topic (SunWukong and AlternateLives) have all provided reasons as to why they believe that their belief is the right one. While I don't believe in them, it does make for fun debate. Corvo has replied with arguments such as "Can't prove that" amongst others, which make it impossible to debate as no basis was given at all.

[Corvo]

SunWukong, on 28 November 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

And why should God be beholden to that rule of "disbelief = hell"? is he so impotent as to be incapable of challenging that rule?
or are you just saying this to comfort yourself despite the possiblity that you are in the wrong?

Because he made the rule, he insists that we follow it or be punished.  It's simple.

jakus12, on 28 November 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

Other people frequently posting on this topic (SunWukong and AlternateLives) have all provided reasons as to why they believe that their belief is the right one. While I don't believe in them, it does make for fun debate. Corvo has replied with arguments such as "Can't prove that" amongst others, which make it impossible to debate as no basis was given at all.

One time.  One flipping time.

I also feel you haven't been reading most of my posts either.  Go read them.

[pepsi_kid]

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

No one has proved god exists.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

If you refuse to believe so, then prove I don't have a dinosaur in my backyard. This dinosaur is also intangible and unsenseable in any way.

You might say that's ridiculous- why should you have to prove I don't have a dinosaur? And that's correct- you shouldn't. I should have to prove it exists.

The same applies for you. You are making the claim that an entity, object or being exists. So prove it. Until you prove it exists, I don't have to prove jack crap.

I think you are not getting the idea of "faith" with people like you don't have.

[FireroseNekowolf]

AlternateLives, on 28 November 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

As for how many Gods is a problem:
How do we know which one is responsible for the creation of the world? How do we know which one is watching? It would seem that none are truly invested in the world!

Let a real polytheist answer this one.

Our lore tells us; it's no different than your God and Genesis. In mine, Odin and his brothers created our world from the body of the slain Ymir. Not that I take that literally, hardly anyone does. But, that's the lore nonetheless.

Watching us? Hah, often none. The gods have their own interests, go about their own ways, as we go about ours. Polytheistic deities are remarkably human for being deities. And you're right, they might not be. Or they might be more invested in their interests which somehow tie into our world. Sometimes, they can be dicks and do stupid things that end up hurting mortals. Like I said, they can be remarkably human. Again, not necessarily literal, this is all just lore.

But they are still our deities. We still respect them. We still honor them. Polytheistic deities tend to be much more complex than in monotheism.

pepsi_kid, on 28 November 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

I think you are not getting the idea of "faith" with people like you don't have.

No, they get it quite fine. They simply reject it.

[Machiavel]

romangvk, on 28 November 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

Allow me to explain why it is worse to be atheist than anything else.

Both atheists and religious people are agnostic, right? Mostly, at least.

If God is real and you are religious: Heaven
If God is not real and you are religious: Nothing
If God is real and you are atheist: Hell
If God is not real and you are atheist: Nothing

So isn't it logically better to at least choose one religion? I prefer Christianity, for example.

But the one true religion is Islam.

Looks like you're still going to hell or, should I say, Jahannam -despite your religiosity.  

Assalamu Alaikom, my misguided brother.

[lolpierandom]

pepsi_kid, on 28 November 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

I think you are not getting the idea of "faith" with people like you don't have.

And faith is stupid.

How about this: This is a perfect example of what you're doing.
[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://amultiverse.com/files/comics/2010-10-04-Faithing-The-Facts.png&sa=X&ei=ZIC1UNTSLsS30AHt7IHwBw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGXWTYYK5gX66tl-2u6tITeW9kJ8Q[/img]

[Corvo]

FireroseNekowolf, on 28 November 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

No, they get it quite fine. They simply reject it.

Why argue then?  Everyone is aware that religion is nothing more than a test of faith based on reason, not facts.

[romangvk]

Machiavel, on 28 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

But the one true religion is Islam.

Looks like you're still going to hell or, should I say, Jahannam -despite your religiosity.  

Assalamu Alaikom, my misguided brother.

I was not favoring any religion, just stating that the probability of success in the after-life of any religion is greater if you follow at least one. We believe different things, and I respect that. I am not stating facts, just stating what I believe and why it is more profitable to believe a religion.

[pepsi_kid]

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

And faith is stupid.

How about this: This is a perfect example of what you're doing.
[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://amultiverse.com/files/comics/2010-10-04-Faithing-The-Facts.png&sa=X&ei=ZIC1UNTSLsS30AHt7IHwBw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGXWTYYK5gX66tl-2u6tITeW9kJ8Q[/img]

You can't compair a cartoon to real life.

[SunWukong]

Corvo, on 28 November 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Because he made the rule, he insists that we follow it or be punished.  It's simple.

One more time - God made humans, some way or the other. We will accept that. God also makes rules. But if he is omnipotent, why is he so powerless that even HE cannot challenge this rule he put upon himself? why should an omnipotent God be powerless before his own rules, much less his own creations?

If God was omnipotent that he could make a stone that even he himself found too heavy to carry on his own, is he still omnipotent? is he even still God?

Machiavel, on 28 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

But the one true religion is Islam.

Looks like you're still going to hell or, should I say, Jahannam -despite your religiosity.  

Assalamu Alaikom, my misguided brother.

Yeah, I forgot that one too:

If God exists, and you believe in him - which is the right way to go about believing? when confronted with world history, Pascal's wager simply breaks down.

romangvk, on 28 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

I was not favoring any religion, just stating that the probability of success in the after-life of any religion is greater if you follow at least one. We believe different things, and I respect that. I am not stating facts, just stating what I believe and why it is more profitable to believe a religion.

Wrong. It would only seem that your chances of damnation are still very high, and your chances of salvation very, very low.

Let's look at it this way:

With God but no belief = damnation
With no God but belief = nothing
With no God but no belief = nothing
With God and belief = ?

So, we assume that following some religion will grant you a 1/2 chance of a good afterlife. But if we brought in the real world, the actual level of probability, it seems, is even less than 1/2. Of course Muslims will argue the probability is forever at 1, and hardcore Jews say that this question is pointless - but this is just how Pascal's Wager stinks.

[lolpierandom]

pepsi_kid, on 28 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

You can't compair a cartoon to real life.

Now you're skirting the question and being willfully ignorant.

Quite frankly, even Corvo's arguments have more substanance.

[Corvo]

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

And faith is stupid.

How about this: This is a perfect example of what you're doing.
-snip-

That's a horrible example.  That picture implies that Christians are going on absolutely nothing, which is not true at all.

[pepsi_kid]

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Now you're skirting the question and being willfully ignorant.

Quite frankly, even Corvo's arguments have more substanance.

It's better to have faith in something than none at all.

[romangvk]

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Now you're skirting the question and being willfully ignorant.

Quite frankly, even Corvo's arguments have more substanance.

I'd like to see some substance from you that I can intelligently debate. It's hard to debate when half of the posts are just fights.

[lolpierandom]

Corvo, on 28 November 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

That's a horrible example.  That picture implies that Christians are going on absolutely nothing, which is not true at all.

But it is. The strong anthropic(too late for me to even know if I spelled it right, and quite frankly I can't be bothered to spellcheck anymore) principle relies on assumptions- the weak is much more appropriate and is more consistent with logic. Ocram's razor applies in this situation- both have around the same explanatory power- the weak makes less assumptions.

The rest is faith. Which is inconsistent with logic.

[Corvo]

SunWukong, on 28 November 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

One more time - God made humans, some way or the other. We will accept that. God also makes rules. But if he is omnipotent, why is he so powerless that even HE cannot challenge this rule he put upon himself?

If God was omnipotent that he could make a stone that even he himself found too heavy to carry on his own, is he still omnipotent? is he even still God?

You are implying that he can't remove those rules, which he can.  He is choosing not to because God is an entity that demands justice.

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Now you're skirting the question and being willfully ignorant.

Quite frankly, even Corvo's arguments have more substanance.

Substance =/= Factual statements.

I can not give factual statements on a religion that has no facts going for it that God exists, only reason and faith.

[FireroseNekowolf]

Corvo, on 28 November 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

You sound really angry. :/

Already said I can't prove it, because nobody can prove how this universe came to be.  Stop replying to me.

Yeah, because when you say I'm going to Hell, that's a disrespect that's a middle finger to us all! That's saying we're not good enough for your precious God or his Heaven! But you are? Because you simply believe? I could be the best person in the world, but hey, I'm not Christian! Well go to Hell! What kind of crap is that?

That's not benevolence. That's a narcissistic beast who cares only of their own ego, an attention whore of the grand scale. It's an invalidation of ours faiths, it's treating them as scum, as nothing. As inferior. It's a prejudice and can be a particularly hateful and destructive one. We have to fight for rights you take for granted, you have no idea what my community and our pagan brethren have to go through. How can you not see why I'd be angry for saying that I'm going to Hell simply because I do not represent your God? We have to put up with crap that you don't.

And I will reply to whom I feel like, you do not hold power over me.

[HexKor]

Religion is an interesting thing, isn't it?

I was part of a Christianity group on a forum, and there was a lot of arguing between the folks of different view (Pentecostals, Seventh Day, Agnostics, etc, etc.). Even people that agree, tend to disagree. Myself, I don't care for religion, I care about my relationship with God. I do go to church and read the Bible, but as a whole, I think it's all about your relationship with the big man upstairs.

As for my fellow humans who do not believe, (EDIT: Or believe differently), that's fine. We are all entitled to our own beliefs. Some people believe in a flying plate of spaghetti, and that's just fine. The only people who are not fine are the ones who say "I'm right, you're wrong", when they have absolutely no right telling others what to believe..

But, @OP, I am glad that you had a Religious breakthrough, and I hope that you also can someday have a spiritual breakthrough (or equivalent  pending what road you choose). God has always loved you, even when you chose not to believe in him, but now he smiles that you have found him.

I know that by posting in here I'm open to get some flak from both believers and non-believers alike, but I just felt like voicing (typing?) my thoughts.

[romangvk]

This is just a mess of raging posts.

And evidence isn't hard to make.

Here's some easy forgery:

lolpierandom, on 28 November 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Christianity ftw!

[pepsi_kid]

FireroseNekowolf, on 28 November 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Yeah, because when you say I'm going to Hell, that's a disrespect that's a middle finger to us all! That's saying we're not good enough for your precious God or his Heaven! But you are? Because you simply believe? I could be the best person in the world, but hey, I'm not Christian! Well go to Hell! What kind of crap is that?

That's not benevolence. That's a narcissistic beast who cares only of their own ego, an attention whore of the grand scale. It's an invalidation of ours faiths, it's treating them as scum, as nothing. As inferior. It's a prejudice and can be a particularly hateful and destructive one. We have to fight for rights you take for granted, you have no idea what my community and our pagan brethren have to go through. How can you not see why I'd be angry for saying that I'm going to Hell simply because I do not represent your God? We have to put up with crap that you don't.

And I will reply to whom I feel like, you do not hold power over me.

yup you can be a good as you want and still go to hell because life don't really have meaning to it it is just a test.