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[Travis]

http://rollingjubilee.org/


This is, to say the least, amazing. I'll definitely be contributing to this and look forward to seeing some results.

[AramilTheElf]

This is fairly neat. Does anyone know how they cancel 20x the amount of debt as money they receive?

[Travis]

AramilTheElf, on 18 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This is fairly neat. Does anyone know how they cancel 20x the amount of debt as money they receive?

I have no clue. Their description doesn't make it very clear.

[Jaiguru]

I've been watching this myself.

I actually really love this idea. There's not even a slim chance it will grow to the proportions necessary to have a major political impact, but it's the right kind of movement for the times.

I have a naive, idealistic side of me that thinks the best type of revolution for our time is not one of martial action, but to re define the nature of currency. Capitalism and money in general, were fantastic tools that brought us out of the dark ages and is responsible for many of the best parts of society. It's also responsible for virtually all of the worst aspects. It's an idea who's time has come and gone, but we're foolishly clinging to it like the guy who insists on riding a horse to work or writing letters with a quill. (You should try both of these things at least once, they're educational experiences, just not practical for modern life)

Wealth in general must be examined and redefined. The well being of our neighbors directly influences our own well being and serves as a wonderful measure of local currency.

I would like to make mention that, though in my heart of hearts I view capitalism as an outdated, blunt tool, it DOES have the capacity to behave in this manner I've dreamed about in previous paragraphs. When money is spent locally, wealth enhances the community. It circulates locally, as well, and has a very high chance of finding it's way back into your own pocket, both directly in the form of lower food and goods prices from local sources, AND in terms of quality of life. The grocer who supports local farms is able to offer you that produce at nearer the whole sale price if he is receiving enough volume of sales. He then also has more money to spend locally, thus spreading the wealth. He spends it on local clothing makers who then goes to the car wash owned by the guy down the street. More money stays in your community and thus your community has more wealth to improve itself, look pretty, BE FUNCTIONAL (up to code water treatment, sewer lines, road crews etc).

The way our markets work now, all that wealth that should be circulating around your neighborhood is actually vaporizing into thin air. It's spent at Walmart instead of JimBob's Grocery. That wealth drains into corporate headquarters, and ultimately, other nations where manufacturing is based. An argument could be made that it is unpatriotic to shop at Walmart for this very reason; you are burning your country's wealth and opportunity for financial well being while making the competition wealthier.

Living locally, and even more so, being a part of PRODUCING locally, is the frame of mind we must return to if we are to continue using the blunt instrument of capitalism. It simply cannot be a force for community and personal good if it's utterly controlled by multinationals who's operations logistically have no vested interest in any one community/country in particular.

[Tormented]

Dear lord, America is turning into Communism. Collective action? Mutual support? People organizing to help each other and their country? Yeah, right. Human nature and all.

[Xaanos]

AramilTheElf, on 18 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This is fairly neat. Does anyone know how they cancel 20x the amount of debt as money they receive?

From what I understand they are buying the debt and because the banks know most of these people won't pay it back they can make more by selling the debt. So rather then gambling on you eventually paying it out they get the quick way out. Because the people who buy the debt also need to make profit the price they pay for it is less then the total amount you could get out of it.

While I dislike the idea banks are still getting money its a good sign that the people who are getting abused are uniting to an extent.

[Tybalt]

Typically, the way buying debt (or loaning money) works is at a discount rate. Similar to buying a 10$ Treasury Bill for 9$. The face value is paid at maturity. In order to get anyone to loan them the money, they sell it for less than face value. It's just a different form of interest, essentially. I imagine this is how they're leveraging as they are. They did seem to suggest they were purchasing derivatives, which depending on how the bank wanted to package them, could be rated very badly. It's unlikely but possible, I reckon. Poor ratings also drop the price on the security, which these people wouldn't care about, they're already assuming a default.

And please, don't hate on banks, they do plenty of fantastic things. Sometimes people get involved in ways they can't handle, but that doesn't make a bank as a whole terrible. And this really doesn't have anything to do with 'the abused people' uniting since we've already established that they're strapped for cash, this is people pitying those people deciding to try to do something about it. Which, I've gotta say, with this and that Occupy Sandy thing, I'm pretty proud of the Occupy movement actually mobilizing to do something, even if this is largely symbolic.

Curiously, they promise full disclosure, but I can't find their reports.

EDIT: Further digging resulted in a little bit of enlightenment. The debts they are buying are essentially already defaulted or very close to it. They've to this point been mostly buying distressed medical securities. So my guess that they might be buying horribly rated was actually true. I'm a little surprised to hear they package them that way.

I'm curious though, I doubt they've beef with people being in debt, I'm sure their problem is with the usurious lenders, which this doesn't really do anything to. Except it might encourage them, at least tell them that the status quo is fine. Then again, it is allowing people on average to leverage their lines of credit further, you know, if they ever had enough money for it to matter at all, which they don't.

[odiedodi]

Tybalt, on 19 November 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

Typically, the way buying debt (or loaning money) works is at a discount rate. Similar to buying a 10$ Treasury Bill for 9$. The face value is paid at maturity. In order to get anyone to loan them the money, they sell it for less than face value. It's just a different form of interest, essentially. I imagine this is how they're leveraging as they are. They did seem to suggest they were purchasing derivatives, which depending on how the bank wanted to package them, could be rated very badly. It's unlikely but possible, I reckon. Poor ratings also drop the price on the security, which these people wouldn't care about, they're already assuming a default.

And please, don't hate on banks, they do plenty of fantastic things. Sometimes people get involved in ways they can't handle, but that doesn't make a bank as a whole terrible. And this really doesn't have anything to do with 'the abused people' uniting since we've already established that they're strapped for cash, this is people pitying those people deciding to try to do something about it. Which, I've gotta say, with this and that Occupy Sandy thing, I'm pretty proud of the Occupy movement actually mobilizing to do something, even if this is largely symbolic.

Curiously, they promise full disclosure, but I can't find their reports.

EDIT: Further digging resulted in a little bit of enlightenment. The debts they are buying are essentially already defaulted or very close to it. They've to this point been mostly buying distressed medical securities. So my guess that they might be buying horribly rated was actually true. I'm a little surprised to hear they package them that way.

I'm curious though, I doubt they've beef with people being in debt, I'm sure their problem is with the usurious lenders, which this doesn't really do anything to. Except it might encourage them, at least tell them that the status quo is fine. Then again, it is allowing people on average to leverage their lines of credit further, you know, if they ever had enough money for it to matter at all, which they don't.

If this is true then they really aren't helping anybody and just throwing away their own money. :|
If they're buying them as securities that does not stop the people that are actually indebted from feeling the negative consequences of defaulting, it just means they're making a ton of crappy investments.

[Tybalt]

Not really. When a loan is defaulted, typically the lender will sell the debt because it's not practical for them to collect. Banks aren't the shady folks who make the phone calls and all that associated with debt collection. Those are different entities who buy the debt from banks after they've been defaulted at a significant discount, then try to collect the value of the debt from the debtor, their profit comes from the difference between where they bought it and what they manage to collect.

This is where the Rolling Jubilee comes in. They have deals with debt collectors, because it's rather difficult to get into that market. They put up the money for the collectors to buy the debts and then they just don't collect on them. And if I read it properly, the poor marks on credit reports come after the debt is bought, so part of the deal they have is that the defaulted loan isn't reported. Salvaging credit scores to some degree and forgiving the debt after they default on it. Annoyingly, they aren't being terribly verbose about how it works, probably to avoid criticism and protect their buyers.

[highwindcid]

Stupid. Smells like the Uganda/Kony 2012 horse "stuff"­ ­ that took a good chunk of money from the patsies an amont of money directly correalted to their "feel bad" gland. The numbers seem totally random. Kinda funny though as it reminds me of a really old scam in EVE Online where some scammer would ask for 10 million isk and he'll somehow magically give you 100 million isk a day or week later. Anyways good luck with trying to get a bunch of broke people to help other broke people pay for their overpriced overated $1 Trillion + college debt bubble.