I just wanted to rant about forge for a minute and see how many of you out there agree. Forge has basically stolen Modloader's market and they are removing jar mods, I think they have gone to far! Basically they are saying if you don't use forge you can not mod Minecraft. I just hope that Mojang stamps out forge with the 1.4 update although I get the feeling that 1.4 is going to be like forge and remove base class mods also. But at least with Mojang it is there game, with forge they have no right to deny me the ability to mod Minecraft.
And for those that say well don't use forge then, I say they have put themselves in place with the best mods so what choice do I have.
Mmh but you use Modloader, to not edit the base class files, and forge has the same idea I think. It's just to make everything compatible. But with changing the base class files, you can change really EVERYTHING in the game. So I fear also, that with the API, some mods can't exist, because it would maybe just an API where you can add new items, blocks, entities, bioms etc. but changing for example the whole sound of the game, like one mod here in the forum would not be possible with such an API.
jar mods will not die just because the API got released, the mode'r will want to keep doing their mod's and will find a way to do so
besides the API will make even more easy to make jar mod's because they will need to dig less code to do what they want
I just wanted to rant about forge for a minute and see how many of you out there agree. Forge has basically stolen Modloader's market and they are removing jar mods, I think they have gone to far! Basically they are saying if you don't use forge you can not mod Minecraft. I just hope that Mojang stamps out forge with the 1.4 update although I get the feeling that 1.4 is going to be like forge and remove base class mods also. But at least with Mojang it is there game, with forge they have no right to deny me the ability to mod Minecraft.
And for those that say well don't use forge then, I say they have put themselves in place with the best mods so what choice do I have.
You got to be pretty young to not understand the concept of "ripoffs", Forge got bigger and better so people switched. You got to remember Minecraft has nothing hidden with minimal knowledge you can edit mods to work without forge instead.
They are not denying you anything. They are not denying your ability to mod minecraft, They may be stopping your personal mind from getting the specific mods you want in game.
To your last question, You have two simple choices use forge don't use forge. If it really annoys you so much learn the coding a minor can learn and tweak things to your exact liking.
So? There doesn't have to be one way to make your mods work and compatible... besides, Forge and FML are becoming far better than ModLoader these days. New and better ways to mod often come around, and the older versions are cast aside. That's life.
and they are removing jar mods
This is a bad thing? Assuming you mean mods that modify the minecraft.jar, jar mods are bad. They ruin compatibility with the base game and with any other mod. It also makes modding easier for people. How is this at all bad?
with forge they have no right to deny me the ability to mod Minecraft.
How are they denying you the ability to mod!? If anything, they're making it easier. Just because it's different than what you're used to, doesn't mean it's bad. And if you're complaining just because you're encouraged not to modify base files, then you really shouldn't be modding at all.
@NoOpen First I am not young and I understand completely the concept of "ripoffs", if you copy someones design and use it to take over there business even if it is better you are still ripping them off. Second Your argument makes no sense, it is not easy to modify a mod to make it a non forge mod, you would have to completely rewrite the mod. For someone like me that has 6 to 7 mods that are forge mods that would not be easy. And I have experience in writing programs including C#, C++, and Java. And I have been modding Minecraft for over a year know. So I would conclude that for the average user it would be impossible.
@dmillerw FML does work better in some ways than modloader but the way they achieve that is the problem I have with forge. They download and overwrite any "corrupted" class files. In other words even if forge did not modify the class file if it has been changed by anything other than forge it is overwritten. Now I can not prove this and the people on the forge forums deny it but they can not explain why the log file has the following lines in it when I installed this mod in the jar file.
2012-09-27 01:57:13 [FINE] [ForgeModLoader] Enabling mod Mystcraft
2012-09-27 01:57:13 [FINE] [ForgeModLoader] Activating mod Mystcraft
I also have single-player commands installed and it does not appear in the log and it is not loaded. Even if I put it in the jar file after forge. and overwrite any class files. I can fix this once single player commands releases its code for 1.3.2 by just combining the changes in the class files so I would have a forge compatible version of single player commands. Or I can wait for the FTB team to do it so they can use worldedit on there maps.
Also, I am not the first to say this FlowerChild was working on forge and seen that this is what they where aiming towards and that is one of the reasons why he left forge and decided to make Better than Wolves a non forge compatible mod. If you don't believe me go look it up.
@dmillerwIn other words even if forge did not modify the class file if it has been changed by anything other than forge it is overwritten. Now I can not prove this and the people on the forge forums deny it but they can not explain why the log file has the following lines in it when I installed this mod in the jar file.
2012-09-27 01:57:13 [FINE] [ForgeModLoader] Enabling mod Mystcraft
2012-09-27 01:57:13 [FINE] [ForgeModLoader] Activating mod Mystcraft
I want you to think about something, if what you're claiming is true then how do mods such as Mystcraft or Better World Generation manage to work at all? They edit base classes. If your claim of "if it has been changed by anything other than forge it is overwritten" then those mods could not work at all, neither would Optifine.
As for Mystcraft showing up in the log even though it was placed in the jar, Mystcraft is currently working on full Forge compatibility, it shows up in the log by design.
Oh, and btw, SPC and Forge both edit the gu.class file so naturally there's going to be an issue there.
Forge is good for everyone because it's a universal mod API so you don't need seven different prerequisite mods to install like 3 mods.
It's good for players because mods become easy to install and it's good for modders because mod development is more centralized and less smorgasbordic.
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Quote from Keeltoll »
Yo dawg I heard you like playing Portal so now you can play Portal while playing Minecraft while going to Hell.
What does the person(s) who made ModLoader have to say about FML? Are they upset? Did they support it? Really, that is the only persons opinion I would like to hear about the issue.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I use the FTB modpack, because it's fun, and extremely convenient.
The people at Mojang aren't stupid. They realize that by creating a new API, they will have to create a way to allow for any type of mod because that's what their consumers want. An API doesn't restrict what you can and cannot do in a programming language. It simply makes it more streamlined if you choose to use it.
First I am not young and I understand completely the concept of "ripoffs", if you copy someones design and use it to take over there business even if it is better you are still ripping them off.
What "business" is being ripped off? It gives users another choice when it comes to modding. where's the issue?
Also, I am not the first to say this FlowerChild was working on forge and seen that this is what they where aiming towards and that is one of the reasons why he left forge and decided to make Better than Wolves a non forge compatible mod. If you don't believe me go look it up.
Listening to him was your first mistake. The guy who is actually proud his mod breaks other mods and can't be played with others. Yeah, because that's the type of modding we want to encourage. Stupid Forge, adding easy compatibility and not requiring specific patches to make two mods work together!
What market? What money-making venture is it that you are speaking of? Risugami's modloader has been open source from the start, and the only money he may have ever made would have been out of donations or advertising. He never sold his work, there are no liscense, and I seriously doubt he made the mod to make money.
Yeah, because modifying the base code of MC makes it impossible to guarantee any form of interoperability with any other mod. The very basis and purpose of the APIs like ModLoader and Forge are to allow mod interoperability. This isn't some sort of aggressive move, it's the only logical choice for the goals of the project.
Basically they are saying if you don't use forge you can not mod Minecraft.
No, no they are not. No one is saying this. As a matter of fact, the Forge team is doing the opposite - they are developing FML to be compatible with one of the other biggest APIs so that people can still use ModLoader if they want. If you want to mod minecraft base files, no one is stopping you. Want to make it work with other base class modifying mods? Write patches.
I just hope that Mojang stamps out forge with the 1.4 update although I get the feeling that 1.4 is going to be like forge and remove base class mods also.
Mojang isn't going to try and stamp out anything with 1.4. The only way Forge would become irrelevant would be if Mojang's Mod API actually does come with 1.4 and it is VERY complete and robust. Chances are this isn't going to happen on the first release. Also, how the hell is Mojang going to stop base class mods? Java is inherently reverse-engineerable. There isn't some magic fix they can implement that will suddenly stop people from being able to decompile their code.
But at least with Mojang it is there game, with forge they have no right to deny me the ability to mod Minecraft.
NO ONE IS DENYING YOU THIS. MCForge is not a business, they are not making money off of clients, and they have no agenda to control the mod scene. They just happen to have a very good piece of software that is as prevalent as it is because it is the best option available.
Also, for crying out loud, get your homophones right. It's too.
@OP: Your argument is crap. You don't know half the things you are talking about. I don't like Forge and I still don't agree with what you have to say.
IMO:
Forge is bloated. I'm sure Forge breaks compatibility with a number of mods itself because of how massive it is. FML is available separately and has no dependency on Forge so I don't have a problem with FML per-se, but Forge just does too much. The expectation that everybody should make their mods compatible with Forge is ridiculous and I can't stand that. The amount of reflection OptiFine has to do just to be compatible with Forge is absurd, especially considering OptiFine is just about graphical improvements!
Im agree with you speedyrv, mainly because minecraft forge crashes and corrupts my worlds and modloader is easy and simple to use, which doesn't crash worlds to stop minecraft forge from going on further
And for those that say well don't use forge then, I say they have put themselves in place with the best mods so what choice do I have.
besides the API will make even more easy to make jar mod's because they will need to dig less code to do what they want
You got to be pretty young to not understand the concept of "ripoffs", Forge got bigger and better so people switched. You got to remember Minecraft has nothing hidden with minimal knowledge you can edit mods to work without forge instead.
They are not denying you anything. They are not denying your ability to mod minecraft, They may be stopping your personal mind from getting the specific mods you want in game.
To your last question, You have two simple choices use forge don't use forge. If it really annoys you so much learn the coding a minor can learn and tweak things to your exact liking.
So? There doesn't have to be one way to make your mods work and compatible... besides, Forge and FML are becoming far better than ModLoader these days. New and better ways to mod often come around, and the older versions are cast aside. That's life.
This is a bad thing? Assuming you mean mods that modify the minecraft.jar, jar mods are bad. They ruin compatibility with the base game and with any other mod. It also makes modding easier for people. How is this at all bad?
How are they denying you the ability to mod!? If anything, they're making it easier. Just because it's different than what you're used to, doesn't mean it's bad. And if you're complaining just because you're encouraged not to modify base files, then you really shouldn't be modding at all.
@dmillerw FML does work better in some ways than modloader but the way they achieve that is the problem I have with forge. They download and overwrite any "corrupted" class files. In other words even if forge did not modify the class file if it has been changed by anything other than forge it is overwritten. Now I can not prove this and the people on the forge forums deny it but they can not explain why the log file has the following lines in it when I installed this mod in the jar file.
2012-09-27 01:57:13 [FINE] [ForgeModLoader] Enabling mod Mystcraft
2012-09-27 01:57:13 [FINE] [ForgeModLoader] Activating mod Mystcraft
Also, I am not the first to say this FlowerChild was working on forge and seen that this is what they where aiming towards and that is one of the reasons why he left forge and decided to make Better than Wolves a non forge compatible mod. If you don't believe me go look it up.
As for Mystcraft showing up in the log even though it was placed in the jar, Mystcraft is currently working on full Forge compatibility, it shows up in the log by design.
Oh, and btw, SPC and Forge both edit the gu.class file so naturally there's going to be an issue there.
It's good for players because mods become easy to install and it's good for modders because mod development is more centralized and less smorgasbordic.
What "business" is being ripped off? It gives users another choice when it comes to modding. where's the issue?
Listening to him was your first mistake. The guy who is actually proud his mod breaks other mods and can't be played with others. Yeah, because that's the type of modding we want to encourage. Stupid Forge, adding easy compatibility and not requiring specific patches to make two mods work together!
You say that because Forge is more advanced than ModLoader, we should dump both of them and use base-class edits?
I'm sorry, what?
Anti-rant ahead:
What market? What money-making venture is it that you are speaking of? Risugami's modloader has been open source from the start, and the only money he may have ever made would have been out of donations or advertising. He never sold his work, there are no liscense, and I seriously doubt he made the mod to make money.
Yeah, because modifying the base code of MC makes it impossible to guarantee any form of interoperability with any other mod. The very basis and purpose of the APIs like ModLoader and Forge are to allow mod interoperability. This isn't some sort of aggressive move, it's the only logical choice for the goals of the project.
No, no they are not. No one is saying this. As a matter of fact, the Forge team is doing the opposite - they are developing FML to be compatible with one of the other biggest APIs so that people can still use ModLoader if they want. If you want to mod minecraft base files, no one is stopping you. Want to make it work with other base class modifying mods? Write patches.
Mojang isn't going to try and stamp out anything with 1.4. The only way Forge would become irrelevant would be if Mojang's Mod API actually does come with 1.4 and it is VERY complete and robust. Chances are this isn't going to happen on the first release. Also, how the hell is Mojang going to stop base class mods? Java is inherently reverse-engineerable. There isn't some magic fix they can implement that will suddenly stop people from being able to decompile their code.
NO ONE IS DENYING YOU THIS. MCForge is not a business, they are not making money off of clients, and they have no agenda to control the mod scene. They just happen to have a very good piece of software that is as prevalent as it is because it is the best option available.
Also, for crying out loud, get your homophones right. It's too.
IMO:
Forge is bloated. I'm sure Forge breaks compatibility with a number of mods itself because of how massive it is. FML is available separately and has no dependency on Forge so I don't have a problem with FML per-se, but Forge just does too much. The expectation that everybody should make their mods compatible with Forge is ridiculous and I can't stand that. The amount of reflection OptiFine has to do just to be compatible with Forge is absurd, especially considering OptiFine is just about graphical improvements!
Answer, it doesn't have these faults, you're just doing it wrong.