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Ars Magica v5.52.014 (Updated August 2) (1.5.2)

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#901

Kereminde

Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:16 PM

I'd suggest finding the Ars Magica RPG rules but I think it might be a thorny idea if the stuff was read and somehow leaked into the mod . . . I'm not a lawyer so I don't know if legal issues would arise. (The 4th Edition main book is available free, though.) But the interesting thing is that there's parallels without necessarily meaning there is a translation.

I've said my piece on this before, but one thought ran through my head as I have been toying with "MystCraft" . . . do these two mods have compatability? Or rather, will they once Ars Magica for 1.4.5 is finished?

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#902

Kereminde

Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

View PostPetator, on 30 November 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Agreed. It would be nice if TC3 and AM could be designed to work well together, in the same way as many tech mods.

Here are a few suggestions for some improvements and new mechanics, largely with regards to spellcasting:

1) Spell-specific inventory and improved casting. I can imagine having a number of different spells could clutter your inventory quite a bit. In addition, I feel that casting spells through items is clunky and bukkit-ish. It would definitely take some additional work, maybe a lot of additional work, but I believe the following system will improve the spellcasting aspect of this mod:
  • Spells are permanent once learned. Icons for these spells are stored to the right of your inventory, to be dropped into your hotbar. These spell "items" are given more recognizable icons (ie minus the scroll) and cannot be placed in your inventory.
  • Spells are cast by pressing its hotbar hotkey (1 for the first space, etc). Instead of switching to that item, it charges the spell while the key is held down, and casts it when your release it. No need to switch to a scroll, cast it, then switch back to what you were previously holding.
2) Learning spells. This largely ties into the suggestion above. Instead of crafting spells, you learn them. Spells are permanent once learned, but you must do a complex task - or 'quest', I suppose - in order to learn them. Something that combines exploration, the TC3 research system, and some form of ritual. It wouldn't fully replace the existing scrolls - you can find scrolls in the world, but they will be less powerful and/or limited in use.

Here's an example quest to learn Fireball:
  • Part 1: find a particular artifact (like a tome or magical ashes) that only spawns in a wizard tower/archive, or is a rare drop from Ghasts or mages.
  • Part 2: research the artifact from part 1 to get at theory that you must prove via the TC3 research system.
  • Part 3: the discovery from part 2 tells you how to execute a ritual that will alter your magical and physical form to allow you to shoot fireballs from your hands. Randomized, but always with components that make sense for a fire-type spell. Something like: build an altar in a desert -> do the ritual at midday -> burn two pigs alive on the altar -> provide a sacrifice of 4 blaze powder -> use a ritual dagger to cut yourself while standing on the altar. Doing the ritual improperly will cause something bad to happen, like debuffs or explosive release of magical energy.
3) Spell slots and magical innate powers: Again, this ties into the above idea. You can only learn a maximum number of spells at a time. Something like 6-8. You can forget spells pretty easily if you choose, and you retain knowledge of the rituals to re-aquire them.

In addition, there could be passive abilities to fill these spell slots. Stuff like innate armor, underwater breathing/movement, or a full crafting grid in inventory. Largely like enchantments, but body-bound and not item-bound.

4) TC3 Aura -> AM Power Converter: Pretty self explanatory. Slowly drains a TC3 node of its aura to provide the player with Ars Magica power. Deactivated by redstone. Causes flux when active.

Hmmm. My input here? Almost all of this seems heavily dependent on meshing the two mods together so that they won't function separately. I don't like this, if only because it makes a much more complex mod relationship and can have unexpected consequences. Assuming the Essence mechanics get balanced better, how does it balance if you can leech off "Aura"? How do these spell quests enhance both mods together rather than just one or the other?

The idea of "learning" spells is interesting but isn't that what the Books are for? To have a hotlist of spells available to you through the book, rather than more UI elements to work in?

The quests are an interesting idea but perhaps a bit involved. I think there are too many steps to go through for a spell recipe when exploration is potentially more useful. Also, note, the spell recipes remain the same every game so you really only need to learn it *once*. (And while a randomization element or requirement for the recipe can curtail that, it also cuts the legs out from the basic Minecraft play of "if you know how to do it, then it works 100% of the time".)

#903

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:38 PM

View PostPetator, on 30 November 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Spoiler:

As reply to your spell system of not using items and them being permanent. I'm not sure if that would work due the following:

In multiplayer (taking in mind spells will be randomized) certain players will only have certain spells. Killing another player will reward you with their spells/books. Then you'll have access to spells you didn't have before. However you don't have their recipies so were you to lose them somehow you don't have them anymore.

You could even use spell scrolls as a matter of currency or trade. If you were to make them permanent there's no trading scrolls and/or recipies anymore.

So I would say non item spells are removing some of the multiplayer features, either it be coöperative or pvp.

#904

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:45 PM

Petator, my main issue with your suggestion is that it takes what is now a pretty complete system and changes it into something else. It also, as Maoyu says, takes away some possibilities in multi-player interaction. In my opinion it's better to focus on working with the system Mithion already has worked out and think of ways to improve that rather than suggesting a whole new way of doing things. (not that you can't suggest whatever you want, of course...)

Plus, I don't want to see Ars and Thaumcraft dependent on each other, just cooperative. :)
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#905

ibitmyeye3

Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:23 PM

Is there any straight up port to 1.4.5 in the works or is it going to be a large update? I wouldn't mind the port for the moment.

#906

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

It's a large update, ibitmyeye3. Mithion has commented (somewhere) that he's been working hard on it, rebalancing some things and adding new spells and other awesome stuff. I believe he's nearly done though we don't have a release date yet.
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#907

Parsec
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:14 AM

How do you find wisps? I've been looking for one for a while and can't find one, I have charm and everything.

#908

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:52 AM

Thaumcraft and Ars Magica... where to begin... While they are both a good interpretation of magic, TC is technically Alchemy: taking bits of evidence, researching it, and utilizing it through the application of an outside devise. AM is more organic. Else, it feels like it. That's what I first loved about it. Introducing a research mechanic might stunt that organic feel. While there are physical phlebotinum, it's minimal and only exists to manipulate the energy itself and less to infuse the energy into an actual physical form. Meh, I'm ranting at this point... I'll just go down the line...

"Should Spell Recipes be obtainable via some sort of research system?" Yes and no. I thought the adventuring WAS the research. So that you don't have to sit in front fo a table for five minutes while you possibly fail at pulling any information out of what you found. (Looking at you TC...) I just don't want this mod to turn into TC3.5 and loose what it has now: Uniqueness. The reason TC gets bundled with Buildcraft and Industrial Craft is that someone went "Oh, TC is like these two, but with magic. Lets make them all compatable, ha-durr..." AM kinda buffs against that and, hopefully, will stand out and be complete in and of itself.

"Is a summonable mount something you would like to see in the mod?" Overwhelming 'meh'. Do what you want on that one. I personally would like summonable monsters to battle along your side, but there are other mods for that. Soooo, yeah. >.>;

"What would you like to see expanded on most in future updates after 1.4.5?" I guess what I'd want most is more developed around the Dryads and the different mages and the towers. Not... plot exactly. Maybe backstory. I'm not sure. I'm too happy with the mod as is. It just needs bug-testing, which I am happy to provide.

tl;dr - I want Ars Magica, not ThaumCraft 3.5, please.

Edit: I type way too fast for my own good. Yay, spelling and incomplete thoughts.
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#909

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:49 AM

My opinion on this whole Ars Thaum thing is that they should stay separate, so you can use them seperately. I've said this before on the Thaumcraft thread, but the magic in the two mods are different. Ars Magica magical energy lies in the caster him/herself, and Thaumcraft magic lies in the atmosphere and items. What could be possible, though, is some kind of inter-compatibility.

#910

Petator
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:25 AM

View PostGrammieFi, on 30 November 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Petator, my main issue with your suggestion is that it takes what is now a pretty complete system and changes it into something else. It also, as Maoyu says, takes away some possibilities in multi-player interaction. In my opinion it's better to focus on working with the system Mithion already has worked out and think of ways to improve that rather than suggesting a whole new way of doing things. (not that you can't suggest whatever you want, of course...)

Plus, I don't want to see Ars and Thaumcraft dependent on each other, just cooperative. Posted Image

Hmm... looking back at it, the way I started with a response to Lord_Ygnas in my post made the suggestions sound very different from what I intended. Sorry about that. Of my suggestions, the only one that was linked to Thaumcraft was the energy converter. The other three are absolutely separate from TC3, with the exception of the TC3 research system which -- to my understating -- is more of a Forge API than a strictly TC3 feature.

I agree that Thaumcraft and Ars Magica should remain completely independent. Fusing them would be stupid. What I would like to see is what Yurei said above: inter-compatability. As I said, it would be nice to see cooperation between mods to the same extent of a lot of tech mods -- RP, BC, and IC2 all have methods to convert power sources, and so you have more options with regards to power. Pipes are similar, but work best for certain tasks. That sort of thing.

Anyways, you make a good point; the current system is more or less complete, and my suggestion does change quite a lot. The most drastic changes are because I'd prefer an item-less system. Inventory is cumbersome and is already used for too many things. A take-all-comers set of gear these days is more than a quarter of your inventory space; spells add more items on top of that. Still, making an item-less system would take a lot of effort that would otherwise go towards new features. Maybe a simpler solution would be to make a bukkit-style command interface that can be used by Mumfrey's hotkey mod?

The main reason for my suggestions was because I was intrigued by two of the poll options: the one with the TC3 research system and the one about randomized spell recipes. It seems as if Mithion wants to make acquiring spells more varied and interesting. I feel like the current rune combination system is cool, but I'd like to move it to the overworld instead of being in a slightly different crafting table. It would make spellcraft feel more involved and magical.

So, to distill my suggestions into their purest form:
- A way to have hotkeys for spells you are carrying, for those who dislike casting through items.
- Move spell crafting from the inscription table to the overworld, to feel more involved, magical, and ritualistic.
- Some level of cooperation with Thaumcraft, but not to the extent that the two mods are inseperable.

#911

UberWaffe
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:23 AM

View PostPetator, on 01 December 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

... the TC3 research system which -- to my understating -- is more of a Forge API than a strictly TC3 feature. ...
Well, it was developed by Azanor for TC3, so it is not really anything Forge related.
It will just be compatible with Forge, given that TC3 is.
But you are right, in that using the TC3 research API (if it is released) doesn't mean that you need any of the other TC3 stuff.


View Post0AngelicDirt0, on 01 December 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

...
"Should Spell Recipes be obtainable via some sort of research system?" Yes and no. I thought the adventuring WAS the research. So that you don't have to sit in front of a table for five minutes while you possibly fail at pulling any information out of what you found. (Looking at you TC...) I just don't want this mod to turn into TC3.5 and loose what it has now: Uniqueness. The reason TC gets bundled with Buildcraft and Industrial Craft is that someone went "Oh, TC is like these two, but with magic. Lets make them all compatible, ha-durr..." AM kinda buffs against that and, hopefully, will stand out and be complete in and of itself.
...
Unless Ars Magica takes a serious direction change, I doubt it will lose its uniqueness.

Personally I feel the research system can add far more good than bad.
Especially since it provides an astronomically important gameplay element: "Pacing the user"
Since this will get rather winded, spoiler:
Spoiler:

So that is essentially my position on it, and why I feel adding it won't lose the magic feel of the mod.
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#912

Maoyu
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

I just wanted to post a two tricks for anyone still using Minecraft 1.3.2 and Ars Magica Beta 4.0.0. (Such as myself.)

First off is the update nagging screen each time you launch the game. It's annoying in the first place and accidently hitting [Yes] is even worse. There's a way to cancel out the screen. Here's how you do so:
  • Make a backup of your minecraft.jar.

  • Launch the game and accept the update.

  • After the game is done updating and you're in the main menu: Quit the game.

  • Delete the updated minecraft.jar and place back your backup.

  • No more update nagging.
How does this work? The update check apparently isn't checking the actual jar file but one of the other files in the bin folder. So it'll think you already have the latest update while your jar is still at 1.3.2. Which that one runs perfectly fine on the other new files. If you want to update again, you can either delete the whole bin folder and run the game or chose to force the update under options at the launcher.

Next would be the bug that Ars Magica Beta 4.0.0 has: You may have noticed that if you changed buttons for Ars Magica they're reset to default next time they play. In fact, all custom buttons other mods may use as well. This is happening because options.txt is reverted to default each time starting/closing the game. So all your default options changes remain while all custom options changes are removed completely. And thus default for each mod when you start up the game again.

Here's my temporary fix for this:
  • Start up your game like you normally would.

  • Go straight to options and set your controls for Ars Magica and optionally other mods.

  • Do NOT close the game and go to the .minecraft folder.

  • Go to the properties of options.txt.

  • Set the file to Read Only.

  • Done, the buttons are saved permanently.
Beware: As the file is Read Only, the game will NOT save any options you change. They will only last till you quit the game. To change options normally again change the file back and undo the Read Only setting.

I hope anyone has use for this. Feel free to ask help if you can't figure it out. Also please do comment if any of the quick fixes cause glitches or any other problems after all. I haven't found any myself, but, if they do I don't want to post info that can cause peoples games to glitch.

#913

Mithion
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

View PostGrammieFi, on 30 November 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Spoiler:

This is exactly my stance on this - I would love to work with Azanor to make the mods interact more closely if they are both installed.  I won't set it up so that one requires the other.  I fear that if I use the API, you'll need TC installed in order to make use of it.  Plus, I have an idea for a research system that I think the TC research API won't be able to handle.  So I'm leaning towards not using the TC API for Ars research, but not so much as to remove the option from the poll.

View PostUberWaffe, on 01 December 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Spoiler:

This is a very neat system.  Currently I have implemented "Tiers" of spells, which are still rather linear, but much more powerful, and harder to obtain (as you need the Tier 1 spell to make Tier 2).  In your example, Dig, only the tier 2 spell can mine diamond and obsidian.  Each block mined costs an amount of mana based on what it is in addition to the base cost.  However, because of that, what if you get unlucky with the RNG and never find Dig I but have tons of Dig II recipes?  You can't make it.  So, that's why I feel some sort of research system is necessary, so you can discover spell recipes when the RNG doesn't like you.  Exploration still will be a big part of it, as the items needed for research will be found in towers, but you will be able to put each tower to better use and get more out of it.

With the research system I am planning, any linear feeling is going to change (I hope), cause there will be a LOT more than just some new spell recipes ;)

View PostKereminde, on 30 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Spoiler:

I actually was contacted by John Nephew (CEO of Atlas Games - owners of the Ars Magica Tabletop )about the name Ars Magica.  He asked that I change it, as it is their copyright, and the mod didn't really show any similarities other than the name.

John is a really cool guy, and we emailed back and forth a few times, and long story short, I have full copyright license to the Ars Magica tabletop game and all of its content, provided I meet certain criteria (which is why this update is taking so long).  He even mentioned that he was gonna give minecraft a try too and "...see what all the fuss is about"!  So no worries :)

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#914

Lord_Ygnas
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

Just to clarify: My own suggestions were not to make the TC3 and ArsMagica dependent on each other. That would be pointless, as many stated. What that was, however, to add a layer of cooperation between the two, adding certain features if both mods are installed - but such features that are completely 'additions' without which you can play like you always could have.

And remember, ideally, just because it would be possible to use TC3's research API, doesn't mean it would make the mod dependent on it. If the using it meant it would make ArsMagica dependent on TC3, I don't think the devs would be willing to use it in the first place.

From the above suggestions following my post, I've not seen a single one that would even remotely look like making one mod dependent on another. So, people, don't panic. After all it is possible to toggle some features, depending on whether another mod is detected or not (either by fancy code or simply by modular extensions).

Edit: Ninja'd! Seems I was wrong about the TC3's research API, so don't mind me.

Edited by Lord_Ygnas, 01 December 2012 - 02:02 PM.

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#915

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

View PostMithion, on 01 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I fear that if I use the API, you'll need TC installed in order to make use of it.  Plus, I have an idea for a research system that I think the TC research API won't be able to handle.  So I'm leaning towards not using the TC API for Ars research, but not so much as to remove the option from the poll.

As far as I know, using an API from a mod does not make it so you have to have that mod installed in order to have that API work in your mod. For an example, several of the tech mods use the Railcraft API, but none require you to have Railcraft installed in order for the mod to work. I'm no coder, but this is my observation for how mod API's work. So, if you were to use Thaumcraft's API I don't believe that would mean users would have to have Thaumcraft installed in order for Ars to work.

Of course, if you have your own ideas for a research system, that is all fine and good too.
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#916

dapenguin101
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:19 PM

awesome.dapenguin was here.Posted Image

#917

Mithion
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostGrammieFi, on 01 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Spoiler:

Good to know.  I'm not familiar with too many of the APIs out there, so I was unaware of this.  I'll still need to see the extent of what TCs API offers though.

*goes a-reading*

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#918

UberWaffe
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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:34 PM

View PostMithion, on 01 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

...
I have an idea for a research system that I think the TC research API won't be able to handle.  So I'm leaning towards not using the TC API for Ars research, but not so much as to remove the option from the poll.
Could I ask what this idea/feature for the research system might be? Sounds interesting.
(Also, the TC3 method certainly isn't the only take on it.)
If the TC3 system cannot be adapted, then certainly make your own.
One uses coding libraries (which are what API's are essentially) to make your life easier and the coding quicker.
If the API cannot do what you want, and cannot be adapted, or would just be too much effort to adapt, then don't use it.

(As a sidenote, my ultimate idea for magical research is probably this: http://www.minecraft.../page__st__1680
But it turns out that it is too hard to implement into Minecraft.
Oh darn.)


View PostMithion, on 01 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

With the research system I am planning, any linear feeling is going to change (I hope), cause there will be a LOT more than just some new spell recipes Posted Image
Already sounds epic.Posted Image

View PostMithion, on 01 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

This is a very neat system.
Well, thanks. Posted Image
But I only really explained the concept of using research to pace the user.
And how research need not just unlock more recipes and items.
That and I generally just like the idea that a truly powerful wizard can do epic things with even the most simple of spells.


View PostMithion, on 01 December 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I actually was contacted by John Nephew (CEO of Atlas Games - owners of the Ars Magica Tabletop )about the name Ars Magica.  He asked that I change it, as it is their copyright, and the mod didn't really show any similarities other than the name.

John is a really cool guy, and we emailed back and forth a few times, and long story short, I have full copyright license to the Ars Magica tabletop game and all of its content, provided I meet certain criteria (which is why this update is taking so long).  He even mentioned that he was gonna give minecraft a try too and "...see what all the fuss is about"!  So no worries Posted Image
See. The mod is already getting famous!
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#919

EclipsionDrake

Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

*stretches the old digits*

As far as a research system is concerned, as someone further back pointed out talking about "once you learn something it should always work that way" and "randomizing recipes"

you could always use a system to where the recipe would remain the same, but you would not even be able to use that recipe, i.e. it would be uncraftable, until you researched it. basically it would just go through a system of (check has user researched spell=true/false) if true then you could use it, false you couldn't. shouldn't be too complicated in terms of coding as far as i can tell. not sure what your current idea is though Mithion, you may already be thinking this lol

Can't wait for 1.4.5 either way :)
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#920

Bellaabzug21

Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:40 AM

Petator, the problem with your idea is that the mod would have to be completely reworked in order for such a thing to happen. Possibly when both Ars Magica and Thaumcraft 3 both go open source, there will be some very talented person willing to write out such a mod, but as of now that is not possible.

Mithion, I believe that if you use the mod api from TC3, in Ars Magica, then the Ars Magica mod will require the TC3 mod api to be installed.
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