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infinite worlds?


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#1

Jarritothellama
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:16 PM

If abondoned mine shafts,strongholds,etc. are going to be added,will we get infinite worlds?
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#2

Kiwikyler1
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:33 PM

No I don't think so... I don't think we will ever get infinite worlds.. :( but I do know that it could be possible to increase the world size :D

#3

electricblooz

Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:34 PM

First, even the PC does not have an infinite world, just a really really big one.

No,  infinite worlds are not possible on the xBox due to the RAM requirements of running both a server process and a client process, plus all the background stuff that xBox normally runs.

Yes, other programs supposedly have infinite worlds.  Other programs are not Minecraft and the computing requirements for these programs are much smaller than Minecraft's requirements.

IFF (stands for IF and ONLY IF) 4J, Mojang and M$ can work out a deal for non-player hosted servers (think along the lines of BF3's rent-a-server) then they might be able to increase the size of the world.  There are no details about this beyond the fact that it is conceptually possible.  (Just like it is conceptually possible to put a manned base on the moon).

#4

duranis
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:58 PM

View Postelectricblooz, on 18 September 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

(Just like it is conceptually possible to put a manned base on the moon).

lol you know in a couple of days time people are going to be posting that there is definitely going to be a manned base on the moon because they saw it posted and it was all official and everything... ;)

#5

wolfeuk
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:08 PM

View Postelectricblooz, on 18 September 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

First, even the PC does not have an infinite world, just a really really big one.

No,  infinite worlds are not possible on the xBox due to the RAM requirements of running both a server process and a client process, plus all the background stuff that xBox normally runs.

Yes, other programs supposedly have infinite worlds.  Other programs are not Minecraft and the computing requirements for these programs are much smaller than Minecraft's requirements.

IFF (stands for IF and ONLY IF) 4J, Mojang and M$ can work out a deal for non-player hosted servers (think along the lines of BF3's rent-a-server) then they might be able to increase the size of the world.  There are no details about this beyond the fact that it is conceptually possible.  (Just like it is conceptually possible to put a manned base on the moon).

i would say its more likely to do with memory, if you spawn in the middle of the map it only loads the chunks around you, so the xbox's ram is at its capacity, if you move forward it loads new chunks in front of you and deletes the chunks behind you, so its runs at the same capacity, all the time, if the map was 10 miles big it would still run at the same capacity, the only factor that will change depending on map size is the memory as it will need this to produce, load and save new chunks, the bigger the map the more memory it will need,
atleast that is my theory of it ;)

#6

george1710

Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:15 PM

View Postelectricblooz, on 18 September 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

First, even the PC does not have an infinite world, just a really really big one.

No,  infinite worlds are not possible on the xBox due to the RAM requirements of running both a server process and a client process, plus all the background stuff that xBox normally runs.

Yes, other programs supposedly have infinite worlds.  Other programs are not Minecraft and the computing requirements for these programs are much smaller than Minecraft's requirements.

IFF (stands for IF and ONLY IF) 4J, Mojang and M$ can work out a deal for non-player hosted servers (think along the lines of BF3's rent-a-server) then they might be able to increase the size of the world.  There are no details about this beyond the fact that it is conceptually possible.  (Just like it is conceptually possible to put a manned base on the moon).

World size has nothing to do with RAM buddy.
And besides, it shouldnt be a problem for 4j to make the world size bigger by simply loading new terrain every time you cross into a new map area, much like the nether is loaded. You would need more memory on your hard drive for that.

#7

wepickle07

Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:21 PM

View Postgeorge1710, on 18 September 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:



World size has nothing to do with RAM buddy.
And besides, it shouldnt be a problem for 4j to make the world size bigger by simply loading new terrain every time you cross into a new map area, much like the nether is loaded. You would need more memory on your hard drive for that.

4j studios said they can not do infinite maps due to the size of the ram

#8

McGizmo
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:26 PM

Technically there is no reason why the XBox couldn't run bigger worlds, officially there is no reason announced by 4J, so this can be anything in their concrete implementation .. lowest hurdle while porting, avoiding some performance bottlenecks now or in the future, some design decision they won't tell us, some MS policies like putting a limit on save game size at what  wolfe points.
(Memory is a very general term and usually means RAM, but i think you meant hard disk? And btw i think there were redstone experiments which proved that chunks were not unloaded, what you describe is simply the render distance and exists in every 3D renderer.)
We can just exclude what 4J has stated...

#9

Nose_Job_for_a_Cowboy

Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:30 PM

View Postwepickle07, on 18 September 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

4j studios said they can not do infinite maps due to the size of the ram
It wouldn't have anything to do with RAM if chunk rendering was handled in MCXBLA the way it is handled on the PC version.

View Postjaritothellama, on 18 September 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

If abondoned mine shafts,strongholds,etc. are going to be added,will we get infinite worlds?
No, as far as I know infinite worlds are technically impossible. The closest you could get is a looping world. I think you're asking if we'll ever get a PC-sized world, and the answer is no.

There is a lot of debate on whether MCPC's world actually has an edge or if it loops. Nobody truly knows, no one has ever made very much distance into the Far Lands before Minecraft crashed.

#10

Mustache_Guy
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:30 PM

View Postwepickle07, on 18 September 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

4j studios said they can not do infinite maps due to the size of the ram
Ac

View PostMcGizmo, on 18 September 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Technically there is no reason why the XBox couldn't run bigger worlds, officially there is no reason announced by 4J, so this can be anything in their concrete implementation .. l
Actually, they've never specifically said it was the RAM. They just keep saying "memory".

Quote

G4 interview with 4J CTO Paddy Burns

The big problem on the Xbox 360 is memory. It's not that the console is lacking in some way, but it is a seven-year-old piece of hardware that is being made to run a three-year-old PC game. Minecraft may not look very advanced, but it's a really deceptively complex one. Even the Xbox 360 version's smaller maps feature more than 100,000 fully customizable chunks of world for your console to keep track of.

"I think the thing that people tend to overlook is, you can change absolutely everything in a world. So you may start off with a world that seems like a normal computer game map, but you can change everything in there. It's not the same as loading a world from a disc," Burns explained.

"We did have to spend a lot of time trying to optimize our use of memory and to get the data size down so we could get as much as possible in there. I know there are comparisons about the PC version having a much, much bigger world, but it is just a different platform, and it doesn't have the same abilities. The Xbox does have three processors that we've been using to help speed things up, and people are saying that it is very good, because it IS running at 60 frames per second very smoothly. That was a real aim, to get this running as smoothly as possible."

In simple terms, your console is managing the Minecraft game client while it also hosts a server for online play over Xbox Live. Online connectivity is a great strength of the console version over the PC; both offer multiplayer, but it's all streamlined through the Xbox Live framework on the console side. You can just join in if you have a friend playing online, and vice versa.

That said, the possibility of one day seeing larger Minecraft worlds on the Xbox 360 isn't completely out of the question. Even now, 4J is looking ahead to how the game might take shape once the console game is up to date, gameplay features-wise, with the PC.

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#11

Nose_Job_for_a_Cowboy

Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:33 PM

View PostMcGizmo, on 18 September 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

And btw i think there were redstone experiments which proved that chunks were not unloaded,
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#12

McGizmo
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostMustache_Guy, on 18 September 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:



Actually, they've never specifically said it was the RAM. They just keep saying "memory".
I'll pointed out the memory vs RAM because i was a little bit confused by blooz saying "its due RAM" and wolf answering "no it is not, it is memory" ;), so thanks for the enlighting.
And thanks for the reference, however that is quite a bunch of business blabla, no technical explanation. There may be several reason why they could not get bigger worlds within their concrete existing implementation, still it is technically possible, at least with cut-backs elsewhere..

#13

Mustache_Guy
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostMcGizmo, on 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'll pointed out the memory vs RAM because i was a little bit confused by blooz saying "its due RAM" and wolf answering "no it is not, it is memory" Posted Image, so thanks for the enlighting.
And thanks for the reference, however that is quite a bunch of business blabla, no technical explanation. There may be several reason why they could not get bigger worlds within their concrete existing implementation, still it is technically possible, at least with cut-backs elsewhere..
Well, he basically said it's because the Xbox 360 isn't powerful enough. It's already running a decently large world, outputting in 720p, running at 60fps, and running the server and client of the game at the same time. The Xbox 360 is too old to keep up.

Like he said though, it could be possible with the Battlefield 3 style servers.
Lucifer - "So you're willing to die for a pile of cockroaches? Why?"
Gabriel - "Because dad was right. They are better than us."
Lucifer - "They are broken, flawed, abortions!"
Gabriel - "Damn right they're flawed, but a lot of them try to do better."

#14

electricblooz

Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostMcGizmo, on 18 September 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'll pointed out the memory vs RAM because i was a little bit confused by blooz saying "its due RAM" and wolf answering "no it is not, it is memory" Posted Image, so thanks for the enlighting.

I interpreted their statement about memory to mean "working memory"  (which could include a virtual page file, yes).  In my experience, most people understand it better if you just say "RAM."  Additionally, I remember a rather large argument about world size viz the size of world save db's from the PC.  I wanted people to understand that just because you have a 250gb HD in your xBox does not mean you have enough "room" for a PC-size world, even though PC save files are only about 250mb.

I think _Cowboy has the right of it.  Unlike the PC, our entire world (every chunk) loads on game start; it's just that chunks do not render beyond a certain distance.  Why they choose to implement like that, I don't know.  Bottom line, however, remains the same; it is not currently possible to substantively increase the world size.  Changes to server process hosting, ANVIL format, etc. will change this situation; but, that is not what they are working on right now.

#15

Nose_Job_for_a_Cowboy

Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:55 PM

View Postelectricblooz, on 18 September 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

I interpreted their statement about memory to mean "working memory"  (which could include a virtual page file, yes).  In my experience, most people understand it better if you just say "RAM."  Additionally, I remember a rather large argument about world size viz the size of world save db's from the PC.  I wanted people to understand that just because you have a 250gb HD in your xBox does not mean you have enough "room" for a PC-size world, even though PC save files are only about 250mb.

I think _Cowboy has the right of it.  Unlike the PC, our entire world (every chunk) loads on game start; it's just that chunks do not render beyond a certain distance.  Why they choose to implement like that, I don't know.  Bottom line, however, remains the same; it is not currently possible to substantively increase the world size.  Changes to server process hosting, ANVIL format, etc. will change this situation; but, that is not what they are working on right now.
I don't think the whole map is loaded when you create a new world. I believe once a chunk is discovered, it never unloads. This hasn't thoroughly been tested yet, to my knowledge. I'm going to start a new world, not travel anywhere, save, then load it after the update. If the map doesn't have any of the new features, it's fairly safe to say the whole world is loaded after creation. If not, then a chunk must be discovered before it is permanently loaded in the memory.

And, who knows, maybe you have to load chunks each time you start playing for them to never unload. That hasn't been tested yet either, the only thing we know for sure is that chunks don't unload after being discovered within the same session of gameplay.

#16

george1710

Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:12 PM

View Postwepickle07, on 18 September 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

4j studios said they can not do infinite maps due to the size of the ram

Oreily? source?

#17

Mustache_Guy
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:17 PM

View Postgeorge1710, on 18 September 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Oreily? source?
http://www.g4tv.com/...nd-console-gap/

He didn't specifically say RAM, but memory. That usually means RAM.
Lucifer - "So you're willing to die for a pile of cockroaches? Why?"
Gabriel - "Because dad was right. They are better than us."
Lucifer - "They are broken, flawed, abortions!"
Gabriel - "Damn right they're flawed, but a lot of them try to do better."

#18

icantfindanamenottaken

Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:49 PM

I wish they would just implement a single player larger world. Cut the fps down to 30 , remove split screen and online friends for this world. And atleast have it be around 3500 x 3500 .

#19

DeadChaosss

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:24 PM

I really do not see the point of bigger worlds.  You cannot do much on a bigger map that you can't do on one the size we have.  What you really want is some way to take your character with all your stuff and go on expeditions to new places and bring it back.  That does not require bigger maps.  It can be done by several other features that are far more interesting.  One could be docks and ships with ships being anything in the dock which is a defigned player built structure.  Ships could then be launched to new maps/ other save games and placed back in the dock when it comes back.  Server portals would also do this nicely if you have a friend willing to help.

Solving this with just bigger maps would be boring in comparison.

#20

Robborboy

Posted 18 September 2012 - 06:56 PM

So...about those Minecraft clone indie games that have infinite worlds.....