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Traps!


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#1

Homertime
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 12:56 AM

Everyone wants to stop grifters, but flags are a bit weird for the object to survive, so traps.

Poison chests

Poison
:stone: = Bucket (which will be added to the game)
:bookshelf: =Air

:bookshelf:  :sand:  :bookshelf:
:bookshelf:  :obsidian:  :bookshelf:
:bookshelf:  :stone:  :bookshelf:

Thinking the coal square is 4 pieces of coal (like the workbench)
I don't know if notch will add other idems that could make better poisons, but if there is, ill edit.

Now this poision can be used for poisioned chests, like so

:tnt: = poision

:wood:  :wood:  :wood:
:wood:  :tnt:  :wood:
:wood:  :wood:  :wood:

Like a normal chest, but with the poison in the middle. and can only be open by you

The poison will be a damage over time, 1 heart over 3 seconds OR when they leave the room.
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Another one can be an alarm system, which you can add to a door by right clicking it. When someone opens the door a message played in red saying:

"Alarm Activated"   not an evil idea, but its something
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another one is "hidden TNT" using dye(which will also be added to the game), when someone hits it (other than you)
it explodes instantly  but will do a smaller explosion then normal TNT.

  [iron] dye (different colors will make different TNT)
  
:bookshelf:  [iron]  :bookshelf:
:bookshelf:  :tnt:  :bookshelf:
:bookshelf:  :bookshelf:  :bookshelf:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY last idea, trip wires, when people enter the house trip wires and activate arrows to fire and hit the Trespasser if close enough.

:grass: = string
:opblock:= arrow

:bookshelf:  :bookshelf:  :bookshelf:
:opblock:  :grass:  :opblock:
:bookshelf:  :bookshelf:  :bookshelf:

When the trap is place (right click the floor)
a white line will appear front of the player, with arrows sticking to the wall, this and cover up to 10 blocks and do 3 hearts damage.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Post either ideas , insults, or what ever you want. (and point out spelling mistakes, I'm a every bad speller even with spell check.)

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#2

gordenfreechmen

Posted 09 June 2010 - 01:00 AM

These traps are a little much. Implying we do have a lot of griefers like this was presumably designed for, they could easily abuse traps like these (in example, replacing a chest with a poisoned one).

#3

Homertime
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 01:07 AM

Yea, is is true it might be much, and you could trick the owner of the house with replacing the chests, but we do need some sort of anti-grifting object.

And that what the alarm is for,so you know if someones doing somthing

#4

Mystify
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 03:28 AM

If doors can have alarms, then no griefer will ever open the door, they would just break through the wall, unless some measure makes that difficult for them. Placing traps in other peoples homes would be a measure used by greifers. Traps alone will do nothing to stop griefers. Nothing.

#5

Cliff_Racer
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 04:04 AM

Mystify said:

If doors can have alarms, then no griefer will ever open the door, they would just break through the wall, unless some measure makes that difficult for them. Placing traps in other peoples homes would be a measure used by greifers. Traps alone will do nothing to stop griefers. Nothing.
It is incredible how true you are here. Griefers spread chaos wherever they go, and traps would be another tool of misery in their arsenal. It is much like a double-edged sword.
I am NOT going to see friend requests, so stop sending them.

#6

8bit
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 06:33 AM

Here's some ideas.

Break away fake floor: This one is simple. You step on a block, and the block disappears under your feet. You fall down.

Block creator trigger: You can create this trigger and place it on top of another block, and when a player steps on it, it creates a new block in a designated area, up to, say, a 5 block radius away. You'd place the trap, and then right click on the trap, where there would be one slot. The slot could hold multiple copies of the same item (so, you could put 5 cobblestone blocks in, but not 2 dirt blocks AND 2 gravel blocks), and when you place the block creator, you would have a 'block setter' tool in your inventory, that would allow you to place where the blocks will appear. (These placements only appear visible to you, and look translucent green.) Thus, you could have it so that when someone steps on a block creator trigger, it creates an iron tomb around them. This could also be combined with the break away floor. You step on the break away floor, then you fall down a 1block wide hole, and land on a trigger that caps the hole.

Just make iron blocks, diamond blocks, harder to destroy. Not a trap, sure, but works the same way, to combat 'griefers'. (really, just making it easier to build than to destroy.) Right now it takes about 25 seconds to destroy an iron block with your bare hands. That's ridiculously low. It needs to be several minutes.

Mystify said:

If doors can have alarms, then no griefer will ever open the door, they would just break through the wall, unless some measure makes that difficult for them. Placing traps in other peoples homes would be a measure used by greifers. Traps alone will do nothing to stop griefers. Nothing.

Just make them relatively difficult to build. Not incredibly difficult, but to the point where it's really just not worth your while if your goal is to just destroy someone's structure. For example, the poisoned chest would require you to find a tree, cut down a couple lumber blocks, then kill at least 5 creepers.

Now, gathering wood is easy enough, but hunting creepers? That more or less requires you to make a bow and get arrows if you want to do it well, and without dying... that means getting more wood, crafting that wood a couple times, killing some spiders... killing spiders pretty much requires a stone or better sword unless you want a major chance of dying, so that requires you to get some more wood, build a wood pickaxe, break the some stone blocks with the pickaxe, use those stone blocks to create a sword...

At that point, I wouldn't call it griefing.

#7

Mystify
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 06:38 AM

*Greifer falls into trap, logs off, logs back in.*

#8

8bit
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 06:40 AM

Mystify said:

*Greifer falls into trap, logs off, logs back in.*

*griefer is still in trap*

#9

Mystify
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 06:54 AM

If they retain their position after they log off, it is even easier to abuse.

*griefer walks into base, starts pillaging.*
*owner shows up to defend his stuff*
*griefer logs out*
*owner goes back mining*
*griefer logs back in and continues pillaging*

He doesn't even have to walk back now.

There would also be the issue of what to do when someone builds over your spawn location. I can't think of any solution to that that can't be exploited.

#10

Riyuzakisan

Posted 09 June 2010 - 06:57 AM

Griefer gets out of said trap and goes on to replace someone's entire house floor with false floor tiles. What a pleasant Welcome Home surprise.
Posted Image

#11

8bit
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:06 AM

Mystify said:

If they retain their position after they log off, it is even easier to abuse.

*griefer walks into base, starts pillaging.*
*owner shows up to defend his stuff*
*griefer logs out*
*owner goes back mining*
*griefer logs back in and continues pillaging*

He doesn't even have to walk back now.

Most games already have a fix for this, and that is, after you log out, your character stays in the game for a little while.

Quote

There would also be the issue of what to do when someone builds over your spawn location. I can't think of any solution to that that can't be exploited.

If someone builds over the spawn point in creative, you just spawn on top of what they built.

Riyuzakisan said:

Griefer gets out of said trap and goes on to replace someone's entire house floor with false floor tiles. What a pleasant Welcome Home surprise.

1. make them somewhat difficult to build.
2. Increase disparity between pickaxe destruction rate, so that destroying an iron block with your bare hands takes a few minutes.

#12

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:25 AM

*griefer mines under you house, logs out, has his friend or alt account fill in the blocks he was in with. He logs back in and is spawned next to your treasure chest.*

*griefer watches a player. When he logs off, he runs up and kills them. runs into their house and has a field day*

It takes less than a minute to get wooden tools, so escaping a trap with your bare hands would not be necessary. Even a lazy griefer could get wood tools. In fact, once you have wood, it takes almost no time to get stone. So a greifer can easily get stone tools.So you can put in iron box traps, and even if he triggers them, all he has to do is mine out with stone tools, which are only 1 step below iron, and get your iron in the process, so they can now make iron pickaxes (on the spot if they want) and harvest the rest easily.

And if you are putting out diamond blocks you are just asking for them to get stolen.

This is ignoring other strategies like laddering or stairing up the side of you base and going through the roof. So you would also need to completely trap your roof, and all of your walls, etc. Traps alone will stop amateur griefers only. Unless you have something so far as a field that prevents people who are not you from entering, a traplike object will not save your stuff or your buildings. And now you have one of the worst possible implementation of land-claims that could possibly exist.

If you combine traps with other concepts, like reduced-destruction-speed-land-claims, you can get effective bases. But with traps alone you could make the temple of doom and it wouldn't stop people.

#13

8bit
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:34 AM

Mystify said:

*griefer mines under you house, logs out, has his friend

At that point it's not griefing, it's a well executed robbery.

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or alt account

Really? He's going to BUY two accounts?

Quote

*griefer watches a player. When he logs off, he runs up and kills them. runs into their house and has a field day*

Again, stalking someone is griefing? That's not griefing, that's intelligent, and a valid strategy.

Quote

It takes less than a minute to get wooden tools, so escaping a trap with your bare hands would not be necessary. Even a lazy griefer could get wood tools. In fact, once you have wood, it takes almost no time to get stone. So a greifer can easily get stone tools.So you can put in iron box traps, and even if he triggers them, all he has to do is mine out with stone tools, which are only 1 step below iron, and get your iron in the process, so they can now make iron pickaxes (on the spot if they want) and harvest the rest easily.

If iron blocks are also much harder to mine than iron ore, I don't think that would be much of an issue.

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And if you are putting out diamond blocks you are just asking for them to get stolen.

Putting out? You wouldn't be able to see them. If you put the trap a couple spaces underground, and put a fake block on top of it, even when it's closed, you'd only be able to see the cap, and it'd be flush with the rest of the ground.

Quote

This is ignoring other strategies like laddering or stairing up the side of you base and going through the roof. So you would also need to completely trap your roof, and all of your walls, etc.

How so? Once they are in your fort, they're going to need to move around it to 'grief', yes?

Quote

If you combine traps with other concepts, like reduced-destruction-speed-land-claims, you can get effective bases. But with traps alone you could make the temple of doom and it wouldn't stop people.

Well, how about combining traps with the magic idea I suggested in the other thread?

#14

Mystify
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:01 AM

It depends on what the motivation is to determine whether or not its greifing. if their motivation is just to mess you up, then its greifing. If its to steal your stuff for their own gain, its not. If you are stealing, you have to make it back out, so teleporting into the middle of their base is not that advantageous. Also, if you have a base with a large interior, do you really want to trap every single corridor of it? most defenses would be focused on the outside, so teleporting inside, especially if you can manage to teleport next to your goal, is advantageous for a greifer.

I admit an alt account is unlikely.

Who says griefer's can't be intelligent? They might even happen to run into somebody who just logged off, and its the same situation.

If iron blocks are so much harder to mine with a stone pickaxe, then if they do manage to place some in your base it will be a real annoyance to clear out. Even if it does take them a long time, after they get 1, they now have a iron pickaxe.

Are you really going to spend the 9-10 blocks of diamond(81-90 diamond) to make a single greifer trap? Its too expensive to use for this purpose. Even if you did, You now have then trapped next to it all, so they can put a weight on their mouse and go get a sandwich as they destroy massive amounts of diamonds, albeit slowly.

you don't need to move around when you make a hole directly down to your goal. Also, as I stated above, the interior of a base is likely to be less-well defended. And greifer's don't need to escape. They just need to get the goods and throw them on the ground so they despawn, encase the chest in iron, whatever.

Yes, coupled with the magic circles or some form of land-claim and they could be effective.

#15

Swingerzetta
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:09 AM

Is fun Really losing? Or is that just in DF? How long do you suppose you'll get to keep your stuff with everyone fighting and stealing all the time? Traps as an alternative to physical security measures such as claim flags can be used both ways, too. what's to stop someone from replacing everything in your house with traps?

The way I look at it is, what makes minecraft fun? I have a fairly long list of things, really, but I'm sure you've got your own. Then I can ask, would those elements still exist in a lawless minecraft multiplayer? For me, none of them would. not any of them.

Unless there is security, I will not be playing multiplayer survival with anyone but occasionally people I actually know in real life. I think this would be sortof a shame.

#16

8bit
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:21 AM

Mystify said:

It depends on what the motivation is to determine whether or not its greifing. if their motivation is just to mess you up, then its greifing. If its to steal your stuff for their own gain, its not. If you are stealing, you have to make it back out, so teleporting into the middle of their base is not that advantageous. Also, if you have a base with a large interior, do you really want to trap every single corridor of it? most defenses would be focused on the outside, so teleporting inside, especially if you can manage to teleport next to your goal, is advantageous for a greifer.

I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, is a suicide bomber an IRL griefer?

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Who says griefer's can't be intelligent? They might even happen to run into somebody who just logged off, and its the same situation.

I'm not saying they can't be intelligent. In fact, I've watched some youtube videos of some pretty clever griefing tactics. That said, in a game like this (survival) I think intelligence should be rewarded, whatever the motive. Creative mode is different, because people aren't playing to out smart other players, they're playing to be creative, but survival isn't about creativity. (Creative intelligence, yes, and often creative liberties can be taken, however, creativity itself is not the primary goal.)

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If iron blocks are so much harder to mine with a stone pickaxe, then if they do manage to place some in your base it will be a real annoyance to clear out. Even if it does take them a long time, after they get 1, they now have a iron pickaxe.

Wait, how do you make an iron block into an iron pickaxe?

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Are you really going to spend the 9-10 blocks of diamond(81-90 diamond) to make a single greifer trap?

It would take 6.

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Its too expensive to use for this purpose.

I think it depends on how developed your group is. If you control a bunch of mines, and have a bunch of people collecting resources for you, it might not be, and that case is the only one where you'd really need to set up a diamond trap, and even then it might be a bit overkill.

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Even if you did, You now have then trapped next to it all, so they can put a weight on their mouse and go get a sandwich as they destroy massive amounts of diamonds, albeit slowly.

I just don't think that would occur all that often. 'Griefing' would be hard, and that would dissuade 99% of griefers. Further, griefers would need to pay for an account, and risk having their paid account name permanently tarred.

I play Team Fortress 2 a lot. It's REALLY easy to grief in TF2. Stand in front of a sniper. Play medic, uber spies. Play scout, jump in the right way when the exit opens from your spawn, trapping your team. Play engie, set up a teleport than teleports your team mates backwards- Stand by the tele and taunt when they come out. Grab the enemy intel, take it back to your base, just sit around, not capping. Despite that, in my hundreds of hours of play time, I have only encountered two, maybe three, griefers.

#17

Mystify
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:40 AM

A suicide bomber is making a statement. I doubt that is true of greifers.

you can craft an iron block back into 9 iron, and then add some sticks, and you have 3 iron pickaxes. All it requires is a way to get a workbench(1 log), a place to put it(the empty spot where the block they just mined was) and a handle(2 sticks)

If greifing is not a major problem, then traps to stop them are pointless. Traps to defend your base against mobs/attackers is cool, but you still need more than traps alone.

Just to make sure no one is confused, I am not against traps. Just the opposite. I am just saying htat traps alone are not an effective countermeasure.

#18

Swingerzetta
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Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:45 AM

I suppose it's true that we'll really have to see how things play out before determining what's needed. Minecraft creative has a lot of greifers, but that requires a payed account to play, doesn't it? Also, this place got it's popularity from 4-chan. You know what they're like.
I also suspect TF2 is more expensive than minecraft, and there's less greifing potential without the element of creativity.

#19

Riyuzakisan

Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:34 PM

@8bit
It doesn't take much to get stone tools, which can easily take out iron blocks. What griefer on multiplayer survival would try to destroy iron blocks with their bare hands? (only stupid ones) They might even go as far as getting iron tools to mess things up even worse. It's not organized robbery, it's griefing in survival mode. Organized robbery is staking about near the person's house such as in an underground area and tunneling right up against their basement wall, so when they log out the robbers dig down the wall and loot the house from the bottom up. Or rig it with explosives =P
Posted Image

#20

gordenfreechmen

Posted 09 June 2010 - 08:13 PM

No wall is going to be safe. If a griefer is that desperate, they would destroy valuable iron, gold, etc. blocks with their bare hands. That gives you no return material. All trap ideas have their problems. Poison Chests, like I said, could easily be replaced or put in an area that one could be poisoned. TNT as disguised cloth seems like what a giant twinkie is to a fat man is to a dedicated griefer. Trip wires are all around bad. If griefers cant see them, there's no stopping normal users from getting killed from them.

tl;dr: These are easily exploitable all around.

P.S. its griefer, not grifter