As some of you may already know, I've made several posts referring to the difficulty level of Minecraft and how it was...well... lacking. After talking, and debating with several members and friends here on the forums, I've refined my idea as much as possible to present you with the best explanation of the issue.
Goal
The goal of this petition is to inform Mojang that the game has become too easy, and provides little to no challenge anymore. Thus resulting in a "weak" game-play feeling. However, it should be noted that this petition is NOT to have these exact changes implemented, but rather this post be used as a base for ideas to work off of. Jeb can feel free to use to leave out anything here. At the most basic level, this petition calls for the following...
The addition of "Very Hard" and "Impossible" difficulties.
The reduction of the number of generated caves, by 1/2.
The introduction of stronger mobs, of some sort.
A more dynamic, and less "click click dead" combat system.
Why?
You may wonder, why would you want to make minecraft harder? Well... the reason is... Challenge.
Let me explain.
Why do we play a game in the first place? Not just video games, but any kind of game. Board game, Sports game, Card games, Driving Games ect. Why do we, as people play them? Do you know the answer? If not... I'll tell you. Challenge.
A challenge, is something that stands between YOU and VICTORY.
Let's pretend you and a friend are playing baseball, you are pitting your skills and cunning against that of others in order to try to win. This struggle, provides challenge, thus resulting in fun. After a long game with friends, if you find your self the winner...the feeling of "I won" will fill you with joy and satisfaction...Plus it'll make you feel bad-ass.
Now take that same baseball game, and let's say your 18 years old, and all the players on the other team are 5 years old...Typically speaking, it be a walk in the park for you. There would be no challenge, thus resulting in the victory feeling...stale and forgettable.
This is how minecraft currently plays. In the early days of alpha, while mobs were by no means perfect, they were a huge threat to your life as a player. We all played, and learned from our experiences, we make defenses to protect out homes and traps to stop them... Now however, this is almost pointless because once you get a full set of iron armor (which I've been told it can be easily gotten in an hour) the current mobs are nothing to worry about.
Minecraft, is a sandbox survival. But the survival part isn't anything to get worried over, it's a push over. And as the game becomes easier and easier, the "victory" feeling, loses it's power and becomes forgettable.
The goal of this petition is for Mojang, Or Jeb really, to understand the game is much too easy, and provides no challenge and strong satisfaction.
So...how?
The current system of the game, works like such.
12|
11| /How strong the player is near end game
10| /
9| /
8| /
7| /
6| /
5| /
4|-------------------------------------------------------Mob difficulty
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
While at the start, the mobs do provide a decent threat... They quickly become weak as the player progresses through the game.
If some how we could implement the following
12|
11| /How strong the player is near end game
10| /
9| /
8|-------------------------------------------------------Strong mobs *
7| /
6| /
5| /
4|-------------------------------------------------------Normal Mobs
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
That way, when you start, it's difficult, but as you grow stronger there are stronger mobs to challenge you.
* Strong Mobs, are NOT just health buffed normal mobs, they would be unique variations of our current foes. Such as...but not limited to the following ideas posted from fellow members
Armored Skeletons
Fire Spider
Fast Zombies
Jumping Spider
While these mobs would have higher health levels, their main power would come from things such as smarter AI tweaking, increased sight range, better aim and range for the skeletons. Other unique abilities could also be thought of, but again, they are not to be extreme.
[New Addition]
Perhaps slimes could be turned into stronger mobs?
-They always spit, instead of only when being punched.
-They are not hurt by arrows, and stay stuck in them. When defeated, they slime will drop the players arrows.
-They try to encircle the player, so they slimes will come from every side.
-4 mini slimes(The ones what don't do any damage) may reform to an bigger slime
Now with Strong mobs in mind...what about enchantments? As of now, they are, as the achievement system calls them. Overkill. But what if they were necessary? And not just silly?
16| / Max player strength by enchantments
15|------------------------------------------------------- Super dangerous mobs *
14| /
13| /
12| /
11| /Max player strength normally.
10| /
9| /
8|------------------------------------------------------- Strong mobs *
7| /
6| /
5| /
4|------------------------------------------------------- Normal Mobs
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
Make enchantments worth while.
What would a Super Dangerous Mob be? They'd be fewer in numbers, but incredibly strong in terms of health, attack power, and AI. They can see you from far distances (if that applies, and have incredible path finding, or aim (if applies)
The ideas for Super Dangerous mobs are, and not limited too... (Nothing too extreme mind you) Elder Enderman - Perhaps a ancient warrior type? Obsidian Skeleton - Nuff said
Difficult Changes?
So how would these new changes work with difficulty settings? Something like so
Easy Difficulty
16| / Max player strength by enchantments
15| /
14| /
13| /
12|------------------------------------------------------- Super dangerous mobs *
11| /Max player strength normally.
10| /
9| /
8| /
7|------------------------------------------------------- Strong mobs *
6| /
5| /
4| /
3|------------------------------------------------------- Normal Mobs
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
Normal Difficulty
16| / Max player strength by enchantments
15| /
14| /
13|------------------------------------------------------- Super dangerous mobs *
12| /
11| /Max player strength normally.
10| /
9| /
8|------------------------------------------------------- Strong mobs *
7| /
6| /
5| /
4|------------------------------------------------------- Normal Mobs
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
Hard
16| / Max player strength by enchantments
15| /
14|------------------------------------------------------- Super dangerous mobs *
13| /
12| /
11| /Max player strength normally.
10| /
9|------------------------------------------------------- Strong mobs *
8| /
7| /
6| /
5|------------------------------------------------------- Normal Mobs
4| /
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
Very Hard
16| / Max player strength by enchantments
15|------------------------------------------------------- Super dangerous mobs *
14| /
13| /
12| /
11| /Max player strength normally.
10|------------------------------------------------------- Strong mobs *
9| /
8| /
7| /
6|------------------------------------------------------- Normal Mobs
5| /
4| /
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
Impossible
16|Max Player +En /--------------------------------------- Super dangerous mobs *
15| /
14| /
13| /
12|------------------------------------------------------- Strong mobs *
11| / Max Player Strength
10| /
9| /
8| /
7|------------------------------------------------------- Normal Mobs
6| /
5| /
4| /
3| /
2| /
1|/Start of game
_________________________________________________________
Gameplay time
By the way, Max Player Strength, means, Full Diamond Everything.
Impossible Difficulty...should be just what it says. Completely ridiculous impossible. Note...that doesn't mean it should be stupid. No instal kill arrows or 100 mph zombies. The game should (in a balanced way) punish the hell out of you.
Mob Spawning
The surface world will always have normal mobs, with a rare chance of spawning Strong Mobs. As you go deeper into the ground, the chance for strong mobs to spawn goes up. Therefor, the deeper you go, the harder it gets. Making diamonds actually "hard to get", and not just "difficult" by being time consuming.
Depth and Strong Mobs
Depth 60 Blocks (Surface) - 95% chance of normal mobs, 5% chance of strong mobs
Depth 1 Block (bedrock) - 5% chance of normal mobs, 95% chance of strong mobs
Or in graph form, since you all seem to like these. Normal mobs
Increased difficulty as you go deeper, makes mining for diamonds legitimately hard, and not just more time consuming.
Super Dangerous Mobs
Super Dangerous Mobs, can only spawn after you have created and started your first nether gate. (Kind of like you released evil into the world). The first time you open one, a super dangerous mob will come out, followed by some strong mobs. (armored zombie pigmen?) This will be your first major "battle" to keep on progressing through the game.
After the creation of your first gate, and the battle. Super Dangerous Mobs will have a small chance to spawn anywhere.
Small Changes
These are some smaller, yet important changes I feel will also add to the difficulty aspect.
As difficulty goes up past Normal...
The rate of fire of skeletons goes up slightly
Zombies move faster
A Creeper's "fuse" is slightly shorter
The Auto regeneration at full food bar, slows down slightly
Wrap Up
Hopefully...you've read this far. If you have, I hope you have enjoyed thinking about the possibilities of new dangers in minecraft, what challenge would await you? Perhaps you and some friends online could try the game on "Very Hard" or "Impossible" and work together to push back the hoards and survive! Or perhaps you will put the game on "Normal" to run an RP server. Or maybe your a bad ass and want to legit solo "Impossible" mode, so your hoard of treasure feels even more rewarding than before.
Now...remember that the point of the petition is not to have these same 100% exact ideas, brought into the game. I implore jeb to pick over them, OR to come up with something he feels would be best for minecraft.
Support?
If you would like to sign this petition, please post, or send me a private message to let me know.
Although it has great intention, I know that Jeb+Jon will be content with the AI change even though it doesn't add much difficulty. I made my own mod for it, and that's most likely what everyone will have to resort to doing themselves also.
Maybe when Notch comes back he'll fill the void of no challenge.
I actually placed it in both, after consulting a friend, we were not sure which would be best, and some folks don't go to the suggestions, and some don't go to the 1.1 discussion.
Although it has great intention, I know that Jeb+Jon will be content with the AI change even though it doesn't add much difficulty. I made my own mod for it, and that's most likely what everyone will have to resort to doing themselves also.
Maybe when Notch comes back he'll fill the void of no challenge.
Did you want to sign?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
Well do remember it wasn't about them adding this exact idea, it was more of a guide to what kind of things they could do, the basics stay the game. Make the game more challenging
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
Yes, I'm signing just for making the game more difficult. I'm not relying on Mojang to make that promise though. They have failed me in that respect already!
It's a lovely game, but with no challenge it's still not much fun at all.
I think the real problem is being ignored here. More difficult mobs only adds extra clicks to the mouse. We don't need a difficulty overhaul, we need a combat overhaul with tweaked difficulty balance.
While I agree that minecraft should be harder not only in mob health, I don't think the solution you're providing is the best kind of solution.
Remember, minecraft is number one sandbox, and number two survival. Your solution shows a situation where the game becomes number one survival and number two sandbox. Not only that, but what you're suggesting would require an immense overhaul of the mob spawning code. This could take time better spent fixing SMP bugs. Which really **** me off.
Do I have a better solution? No. Do I like the gametype you're describing? Yes. I just don't think it would go well with many other players, based on the forums.
This really is needed, the games difficulty has taken far too much of a drop as of recent :sad.gif:
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[url=http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/713414-181-more-ores-v07-new-thread-with-update/][img]Fross wrote:
It's like Lego, but occasionally a terrorist sneaks in through your window and blows all of your **** to hell.
I tweaked the gen to completely eliminate caves. This is an overhang with some day-time mob spawn.
If you look closely in the shadow, that amounts to 8 skellies right near each other. Imagine this kind of combat.
However, I'm more about making the basic mobs difficult, not adding more. We have the technology!!!
No caves? Dayum.that combat would be EXTREMELY difficult,i like it.i assume you got rid of cave so hostile monsters do spawn in them and ores would be more difficult to acquire?
I believe your difficulty graphs need to be tweaked. Easy and normal difficulties should be easier than you have it, as not everyone wants a more difficult game, some enjoy light survival and mining while mostly focusing on building. Enchantments should not be required to beat super dangerous mobs AT ALL until you are in hard mode.
And one thing I will always disagree with is Skeleton accuracy needing to be better. They ALWAYS hit me, it's not hard no, just a nuisance. Better AI with the same accuracy would be okay for me. The reduction of caves is also something that should not be changed: people like to go spelunking!
There are some good ideas in this, but harder does not necessarily mean it should be more irritating and boring.
I also disagree that "super dangerous mobs" and "strong mobs" spawn rate. Strong mobs should always have a spawn rate of at least 5%. As the player goes deeper this percentage should increase slightly as the chance of a normal mob spawning decreases. I'd say the strong mobs shouldn't have a chance of spawning more than 15%. As for "super dangerous mobs" I like the idea of having them be "uniques" with a name floating above them. Let's say they are an obsidian skeleton, he would have a name like "Black-Bone" or something. And they should continually respawn in certain chunks, similar to how slimes are, only a bit more common and without the height limit. I say this because I like the idea of being able to return to their "lair" to battle them again.
All in all I think that some of your guidelines are a little too harsh and would change how people are playing on the lower difficulties too much.
As some of you may already know, I've made several posts referring to the difficulty level of Minecraft and how it was...well... lacking. After talking, and debating with several members and friends here on the forums, I've refined my idea as much as possible to present you with the best explanation of the issue.
The goal of this petition is to inform Mojang that the game has become too easy, and provides little to no challenge anymore. Thus resulting in a "weak" game-play feeling. However, it should be noted that this petition is NOT to have these exact changes implemented, but rather this post be used as a base for ideas to work off of. Jeb can feel free to use to leave out anything here. At the most basic level, this petition calls for the following...
You may wonder, why would you want to make minecraft harder? Well... the reason is... Challenge.
Let me explain.
Why do we play a game in the first place? Not just video games, but any kind of game. Board game, Sports game, Card games, Driving Games ect. Why do we, as people play them? Do you know the answer? If not... I'll tell you. Challenge.
A challenge, is something that stands between YOU and VICTORY.
Let's pretend you and a friend are playing baseball, you are pitting your skills and cunning against that of others in order to try to win. This struggle, provides challenge, thus resulting in fun. After a long game with friends, if you find your self the winner...the feeling of "I won" will fill you with joy and satisfaction...Plus it'll make you feel bad-ass.
Now take that same baseball game, and let's say your 18 years old, and all the players on the other team are 5 years old...Typically speaking, it be a walk in the park for you. There would be no challenge, thus resulting in the victory feeling...stale and forgettable.
This is how minecraft currently plays. In the early days of alpha, while mobs were by no means perfect, they were a huge threat to your life as a player. We all played, and learned from our experiences, we make defenses to protect out homes and traps to stop them... Now however, this is almost pointless because once you get a full set of iron armor (which I've been told it can be easily gotten in an hour) the current mobs are nothing to worry about.
Minecraft, is a sandbox survival. But the survival part isn't anything to get worried over, it's a push over. And as the game becomes easier and easier, the "victory" feeling, loses it's power and becomes forgettable.
The goal of this petition is for Mojang, Or Jeb really, to understand the game is much too easy, and provides no challenge and strong satisfaction.
The current system of the game, works like such.
While at the start, the mobs do provide a decent threat... They quickly become weak as the player progresses through the game.
If some how we could implement the following
That way, when you start, it's difficult, but as you grow stronger there are stronger mobs to challenge you.
* Strong Mobs, are NOT just health buffed normal mobs, they would be unique variations of our current foes. Such as...but not limited to the following ideas posted from fellow members
While these mobs would have higher health levels, their main power would come from things such as smarter AI tweaking, increased sight range, better aim and range for the skeletons. Other unique abilities could also be thought of, but again, they are not to be extreme.
-They always spit, instead of only when being punched.
-They are not hurt by arrows, and stay stuck in them. When defeated, they slime will drop the players arrows.
-They try to encircle the player, so they slimes will come from every side.
-4 mini slimes(The ones what don't do any damage) may reform to an bigger slime
Now with Strong mobs in mind...what about enchantments? As of now, they are, as the achievement system calls them. Overkill. But what if they were necessary? And not just silly?
Make enchantments worth while.
What would a Super Dangerous Mob be? They'd be fewer in numbers, but incredibly strong in terms of health, attack power, and AI. They can see you from far distances (if that applies, and have incredible path finding, or aim (if applies)
The ideas for Super Dangerous mobs are, and not limited too... (Nothing too extreme mind you)
Elder Enderman - Perhaps a ancient warrior type?
Obsidian Skeleton - Nuff said
So how would these new changes work with difficulty settings? Something like so
Easy Difficulty
Normal Difficulty
Hard
Very Hard
Impossible
By the way, Max Player Strength, means, Full Diamond Everything.
Impossible Difficulty...should be just what it says. Completely ridiculous impossible. Note...that doesn't mean it should be stupid. No instal kill arrows or 100 mph zombies. The game should (in a balanced way) punish the hell out of you.
The surface world will always have normal mobs, with a rare chance of spawning Strong Mobs. As you go deeper into the ground, the chance for strong mobs to spawn goes up. Therefor, the deeper you go, the harder it gets. Making diamonds actually "hard to get", and not just "difficult" by being time consuming.
Depth and Strong Mobs
Or in graph form, since you all seem to like these.
Normal mobs
Strong mobs
Increased difficulty as you go deeper, makes mining for diamonds legitimately hard, and not just more time consuming.
Super Dangerous Mobs, can only spawn after you have created and started your first nether gate. (Kind of like you released evil into the world). The first time you open one, a super dangerous mob will come out, followed by some strong mobs. (armored zombie pigmen?) This will be your first major "battle" to keep on progressing through the game.
After the creation of your first gate, and the battle. Super Dangerous Mobs will have a small chance to spawn anywhere.
These are some smaller, yet important changes I feel will also add to the difficulty aspect.
As difficulty goes up past Normal...
Hopefully...you've read this far. If you have, I hope you have enjoyed thinking about the possibilities of new dangers in minecraft, what challenge would await you? Perhaps you and some friends online could try the game on "Very Hard" or "Impossible" and work together to push back the hoards and survive! Or perhaps you will put the game on "Normal" to run an RP server. Or maybe your a bad ass and want to legit solo "Impossible" mode, so your hoard of treasure feels even more rewarding than before.
Now...remember that the point of the petition is not to have these same 100% exact ideas, brought into the game. I implore jeb to pick over them, OR to come up with something he feels would be best for minecraft.
If you would like to sign this petition, please post, or send me a private message to let me know.
Current Signatures
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
But, wasnt this thread posted like a week ago?
I see... but you should have just edited and bumped, but well... lets see how this goes.
I really liked the idea from the start, so i hope we get a lot of signs and some day get it known by the devs.
It wasn't a petition then
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
Although it has great intention, I know that Jeb+Jon will be content with the AI change even though it doesn't add much difficulty. I made my own mod for it, and that's most likely what everyone will have to resort to doing themselves also.
Maybe when Notch comes back he'll fill the void of no challenge.
I actually placed it in both, after consulting a friend, we were not sure which would be best, and some folks don't go to the suggestions, and some don't go to the 1.1 discussion.
Did you want to sign?
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
this is definitively needed.
Ill elaborate it more after a quick shower.
Well do remember it wasn't about them adding this exact idea, it was more of a guide to what kind of things they could do, the basics stay the game. Make the game more challenging
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
It's a lovely game, but with no challenge it's still not much fun at all.
I completely support this idea.
If you look closely in the shadow, that amounts to 8 skellies right near each other. Imagine this kind of combat.
However, I'm more about making the basic mobs difficult, not adding more. We have the technology!!!
Have to completly agree with all of this, maybe you will a good thing doing here
Remember, minecraft is number one sandbox, and number two survival. Your solution shows a situation where the game becomes number one survival and number two sandbox. Not only that, but what you're suggesting would require an immense overhaul of the mob spawning code. This could take time better spent fixing SMP bugs. Which really **** me off.
Do I have a better solution? No. Do I like the gametype you're describing? Yes. I just don't think it would go well with many other players, based on the forums.
This really is needed, the games difficulty has taken far too much of a drop as of recent :sad.gif:
It's like Lego, but occasionally a terrorist sneaks in through your window and blows all of your **** to hell.
No caves? Dayum.that combat would be EXTREMELY difficult,i like it.i assume you got rid of cave so hostile monsters do spawn in them and ores would be more difficult to acquire?
And one thing I will always disagree with is Skeleton accuracy needing to be better. They ALWAYS hit me, it's not hard no, just a nuisance. Better AI with the same accuracy would be okay for me. The reduction of caves is also something that should not be changed: people like to go spelunking!
There are some good ideas in this, but harder does not necessarily mean it should be more irritating and boring.
I also disagree that "super dangerous mobs" and "strong mobs" spawn rate. Strong mobs should always have a spawn rate of at least 5%. As the player goes deeper this percentage should increase slightly as the chance of a normal mob spawning decreases. I'd say the strong mobs shouldn't have a chance of spawning more than 15%. As for "super dangerous mobs" I like the idea of having them be "uniques" with a name floating above them. Let's say they are an obsidian skeleton, he would have a name like "Black-Bone" or something. And they should continually respawn in certain chunks, similar to how slimes are, only a bit more common and without the height limit. I say this because I like the idea of being able to return to their "lair" to battle them again.
All in all I think that some of your guidelines are a little too harsh and would change how people are playing on the lower difficulties too much.