While that is true, this ease must be counter balanced by cost, efficiency, or time spent building the needed systems. The old tube system had none of these.
To me, that is a fallacious argument - 'ease' need not be counter balanced by anything if that is what is intended. At that point, though, we're back to your 'Diamonds from nothing' point, which is quite valid.
I apologies for that, I was simply trying to point out the flaw in your logic. And again, that is personal preferance. With your way, you have little chance to anger M.E.T.A.L. They are a crowd you must never have as an enemy if you value your life.
I have no idea who or what that is. It sounds like I'd rather have it stay that way.
I never said there was anything wrong with it, just that the way he does things does not fit here(The liquid never leaves the transfer node, it goes strait from A to B, using the pipes as a guide line). Here you need to worry about the more often then not dangerous liquid flowing through your pipes.
Neither did I say something was wrong with it, I was just looking for the reason. Fair point.
Your right to call my bluff, I barely know more then a few facts about the code. (If you want to build a super fast farm, I'm the guy to see). That just seemed off, and more complicated then it needs to be.
It might well be more complicated. I hadn't actually coded it out, just spewed some pseudo-logic that sounded right. I am now pondering if I should make a mod to bring back tubes in that fashion. I wonder how annoying it would be to dev for.
Again I apologies, I was in a bit of a rush when I wrote that. We have all had times like that, have we not?
As for "What Azanor thinks", It has already been pointed out that he commented on this issue, and he has no intent to go back on his choice to change it. As for your little "Nostalgia tubes" mod, you do have every right to try and bring it back. All I ask is that you ask severs to not implement it.
Though your words seeped sarcasm when you used the word friend, I will still call you that. This has been a wonderful debate, and one I think needed to happen here, if only to get the thoughts of both sides.
Until we meet again, My friend.
Again, fair point. I myself tend to be a bit acidic and less than pleasant in the mornings. I apologize for sounding like a dirtbag. I doubt I'll ever get around to doing a Nostalgia Tubes mod, but if I do, I'd make sure to limit server load (if that was your intent). As to asking Server Admins to implement it, I run my own server for a few friends, and I like it that way (I don't like the public in general). This has been a debate, uncertain as to 'wonderful', but I should like random forum users to not include me as 'friend' by any definition without my approval.
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Also ( sorry, I just saw the Staff discussion ), the response I got via IRC was that it is impossible at the current moment without using glitches or mods to create a Thaumium capped Silverwood or Primal staff, you must use either Gold or Silver caps and that there is a new wand core 'in the works' to handle this.
Azanor, please correct me if IRC lurkers were lying.
Actually, what "we" think and what "you" think are two entirely different matters. I am [] with those that agree with the decision to nerf the tubes - they are simply boring. They weren't even in the mod as they were for that long - if not having that ezmode option doesn't suit you, there are plenty of other mods like AE and Thermal Expansion out there.
No, you misunderstand - regardless of what we think, he doesn't care. He's not changing it back. Boring tubes are nice. They allow me to not think about micro managing dull witted golems who perform the job less perfectly. Sometimes boring is good. Not everything in a game has to be 'hard won'. I use both AE and Thermal Expansion as well, but neither one has Boots of the Traveler. Possibly the single most awesome item in the mod. Either that or the Axe of the Stream. Tough call. (Those wand foci though... hrm.)
I rather like my golem, derpy as he is, as he looks wonderful and dashing with his little bow tie and top hat. As a result, all tubes should be removed! (That is essentially what [you're] saying, my friend). As for the decanting golems(I'm assuming that's what you meant, as the fill golem moves items from one spot and brings them [to] another), they have other uses. If I recall, [their] use is to move fluids from designated areas to the bound tank or container. Still very useful my friend. As for "No one uses it, so remove it", now the same could be said for tubes. You, who is so willing to call them redundant, could lose the very thing you love so dearly to one chanting your own mantra. I prefer the current system, as nether is "Useless". As I said, a golem is for filling dozens of jars while tubes are for filling a few.
First, when attempting to make an argument, don't attack the person - attack the idea. This is getting towards that 'personal' edge in tone. I hate golems, they look terrible and I avoid using them at any point possible (I generally don't even research them except by accident) - but that does not mean I want them out of the game completely, I do understand that others like them. I was merely illustrating the point that while golems had other things (cores) to fall back on, this nerf soundly cut tubes off at the knees, waist, shoulders and head.
Tell me: How many mods do you know of that let more [than] one fluid pass through a pipe at one time? (Extra utilities doesn't count, due to the systems he has in place.) This lag we had is the very reason why you set up separate lines for lava and water, or any other fluid [you're] moving. Let me go over [you're] suggested change: Each block update counts every time one essentia goes into a jar.
<snip, this is getting too long>
One of the few who understands that "We don't like the change, but we understand why it needed to happen and support Azanor in his choice to nerf the living daylights out of tubes".
I hope this is enough of an answer for you, my friend.
Why doesn't Extra Utilities count? It's a fantastic mod, and it fills a lot of different holes from other mods.
You clearly have even less of an understanding of how the Minecraft code works than I do. Nothing in my change suggested that, and dear god, if that is how Azanor currently does it, I'll have to smack him for it.
I don't think anyone knows exactly why Azanor decided to change things as he did ( well, himself, of course). I don't understand, I think it's wrong, but it's Azanor's mod, so I have two options: Declare that I don't like it and see if he changes it (did that), or make a addon mod of my own to replace the feature. Anything else, including going back and forth with you, does not actually further my agenda in any way.
I'm still using the mod (it is still fantastic), I just like it a lot less.
Also, "my friend", I understand not everyone on the internet speaks fluent English, but please, please, study the homonyms. It took me 50% longer to reply to you compared to the below, because I had to fix things to figure out what you were actually saying.
And this is why when I proposed the magical essentia router, I made jarred zombie brains a major ingredient in it. The tubes don't know where the essentia should go; but the brains do, and figure out which tubes to send it through to get there.
You know, that's actually an idea I could get behind.
Why, conceptually speaking, cannot there be room for both systems? Let golemancers manage their essentia with golems and scorn the hissing tubes of the artificer. Let artificers build their sprawling tube networks managed by bound zombie brains, and disdain the scurrying minions of the golemancer. Why have multiple schools of magic if you cannot prefer one or another speciality?
I think you have missed the entire point. People are angry because they can no longer use tubes instead of golems, and golems are unreliable because:
[]
2) they can get stuck on things due to bad pathfinding, which includes things commonly found near infusion altars, which people put jars next to.
Oh, and golems are also inferior because they keep taking essentia from the first alembic, ignoring the ones higher in the stack until the bottom one no longer gets any essentia. So the higher ones tend to get full and then the furnace gets clogged, and it's just awful.
<snip> unreliable golems.
QFT. and multiple golems on the furnace do little to help.
@Essentia tubes debate: Isn't it still pretty easy to pipe the essentia from alchemic furnaces to jars and have golems organize it for you? I don't see what's so difficult about that... Even with the nerfing, it's still relatively simple to just pipe the items out using valves
I don't actually understand anything you're saying here, and I'm not going to try to interpret it. Can you expand?
Azanor has failed to talk about tubes. Logical conclusion, he doesn't care about what we think. More realistic conclusion, he doesn't want to talk about what is (apparently) a hotbed issue (because he's not going to change it back).
There has been some ideas I have been toying with and would like your opinion on them.
1. There is an obvious imbalance in research aspects gained. I'm considering two solutions: scanning only giving primals like the decon table or changing some of the low tier aspect combos (for example potentia being aer+ignem instead of ordo+ignem). Thoughts?
I fail to see how changing the scanning to only give primals would help to fix the imbalance. Could someone please enlighten me? (No, seriously, I don't get it. Someone explain please?)
As to changing aspect combos... Maybe? I'm not sure how large of an effect it would have.
2. "Wild" mana beans only giving random primal aspects, but adding a way to crossbreed them into compound versions that only bear a single type of bean most of the time.
This would be interesting, and could be great fun, but I'm not certain of the problem you're trying to solve.
Considering how close it was to essentia, how easy they were to make, and how simple they were to use, no one ever used a golem. Now each have there place: A golem is for big infusion altar rooms with dozens of jars to fill, while tubes are for small little systems like creating ignus for a furnace or perdeto for a bore.
Why would anyone want to use a golem for it? The tubes are a clearly better system. Why do we need a golem that does this task? Having less research with more effect would lead to a leaner and cleaner mod. -"Perfection is not when there is nothing left to add, but nothing left to take away."
As for the valves, you do need to know what your doing for a bigger system. If the pipes get clogged up with essentia, you need to unclog them. Place on a empty jar, and if there is nothing competing with it, it will rid you of the clog. As for the golem path finding, the poor souls still get a little tripped up on mob heads and the like. But the bug you have mention has been resolved, I believe.
I will admit, I never really understood a reason for valves. They seemed utterly pointless when the tubes handled everything well (more-or-less). Golems get tripped up on more than just mob heads, and sometimes it seems that walking over jars is painful for them (and to watch). I do believe that bug has been fixed, yes.
As for reverting the changes, that will likely never happen. The reason for the change was two fold: Large tube systems lagged servers and(The main reason he made the change) as soon as Azanor added tubes, he regretted it(How many people kicked there poor golems to the curb after they where added?). As I said, tubes where far too unbalanced, and this was a needed change. Did this change break per-existing tube systems? Yes, but any change he could have done would have.
Lagging servers I can understand (I will come back to this momentarily), but "Oh, no, Alchemy golems are useless now"? Good. Take it out. One less thing for people to research and deal with. Golems already to a boatload of things, losing one core would still have them useful. Additionally, didn't Azanor just add an automagic cauldron device that requires no water? One less thing for a Fill golem to do. (This is to illustrate that I don't think he regretted it just because of the loss of golem usefulness).
Were tubes unbalanced? Not to me. Tubes made the crazy essentia system bearable. I could put whatever I needed in there, and it would carry it however far in a reasonable amount of time, and rarely would fuel be wasted. Golems are both slow and, to me, visually unappealing. I would not want so many little things scurrying around my base.
As to lagging servers, I will preface this with "I haven't actually read the code", so this is entirely speculation (additionally, my MC-specfic java is fairly weak). My first assumption is that Azanor modeled his code after how the book entry explains it. If this is true, I suspect that the code was absolutely horrendous - each piece of tube needing to request what it needed every tick or so? Awful.
A better way to have done it (in code) would be to have the Alembics 'push' - Each block update on a tube node would cause it to alert the Alembics to redo a list of jars connected to the tubes; The tubes themselves, after all, really don't need to do anything - they just connect the Alembics to the jars. Each tick (or second or whatever), the Alembics check to see if they have any essentia, if not, return. If they do, search the list for a matching jar and fill it. If none exist, find the first empty and use it.
This would (again, assuming the code is currently laid out as the Thaumonomicon describes the process) both decrease the server load (quite drastically, I would think) and not change how the Tubes operate (to us users, anyways).
I wanted to express how absolutely breaking and horrible the essentia tube changes are. The tubes are now essentially worthless, as they can only connect to a single jar at a time (and really, the valves don't help at all). I have yet to try the (hopefully revised) golems, which I stopped using due to a combination of incredibly annoying pathfinding and a bug that caused them to only draw a single point of essentia from an alembic at a time. This is a change so comprehensively terrible, I cannot fathom what possible workflow or user story you could have been aiming for with the new design.
The rest of the update, as far as I can tell, is overwhelmingly awesome. I truly hope you revert the essentia tube changes.
Sorry for the sudden silence all, I ended up fubar-ing my install of MC somehow (probably mod testing). I am somewhat back, and I will have an update video later today going over what my plans are ( probably no Minecraft in the coming weeks, change of pace ). I will have some other videos coming up, so stick around!
Greetings all, and thanks for stopping by. I play a custom set of mods (not a modpack) that I curate for myself and a few friends. Come along as we explore the world, find interesting things to do, and in general, strip-mine the world dry until we blow it up.
I currently have one finished series, and one active series (brief break this week for RL stuff) - and a Full Play of Deathspank - up live, with others things in the works.
If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know here or via twitter @Phill_Duno666 .
Thanks, and I hope to see you soon!
Edit: Like an idiot, I forgot a link to my youtube channel. I'm terrible at this. (Thanks Youssarian!)
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To me, that is a fallacious argument - 'ease' need not be counter balanced by anything if that is what is intended. At that point, though, we're back to your 'Diamonds from nothing' point, which is quite valid.
I have no idea who or what that is. It sounds like I'd rather have it stay that way.
Neither did I say something was wrong with it, I was just looking for the reason. Fair point.
It might well be more complicated. I hadn't actually coded it out, just spewed some pseudo-logic that sounded right. I am now pondering if I should make a mod to bring back tubes in that fashion. I wonder how annoying it would be to dev for.
Again, fair point. I myself tend to be
a bitacidic and less than pleasant in the mornings. I apologize for sounding like a dirtbag. I doubt I'll ever get around to doing a Nostalgia Tubes mod, but if I do, I'd make sure to limit server load (if that was your intent). As to asking Server Admins to implement it, I run my own server for a few friends, and I like it that way (I don't like the public in general). This has been a debate, uncertain as to 'wonderful', but I should like random forum users to not include me as 'friend' by any definition without my approval.--------
Also ( sorry, I just saw the Staff discussion ), the response I got via IRC was that it is impossible at the current moment without using glitches or mods to create a Thaumium capped Silverwood or Primal staff, you must use either Gold or Silver caps and that there is a new wand core 'in the works' to handle this.
Azanor, please correct me if IRC lurkers were lying.
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No, you misunderstand - regardless of what we think, he doesn't care. He's not changing it back. Boring tubes are nice. They allow me to not think about micro managing dull witted golems who perform the job less perfectly. Sometimes boring is good. Not everything in a game has to be 'hard won'. I use both AE and Thermal Expansion as well, but neither one has Boots of the Traveler. Possibly the single most awesome item in the mod. Either that or the Axe of the Stream. Tough call. (Those wand foci though... hrm.)
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'Ease of use' does not 'unbalanced' make.
First, when attempting to make an argument, don't attack the person - attack the idea. This is getting towards that 'personal' edge in tone. I hate golems, they look terrible and I avoid using them at any point possible (I generally don't even research them except by accident) - but that does not mean I want them out of the game completely, I do understand that others like them. I was merely illustrating the point that while golems had other things (cores) to fall back on, this nerf soundly cut tubes off at the knees, waist, shoulders and head.
Why doesn't Extra Utilities count? It's a fantastic mod, and it fills a lot of different holes from other mods.
You clearly have even less of an understanding of how the Minecraft code works than I do. Nothing in my change suggested that, and dear god, if that is how Azanor currently does it, I'll have to smack him for it.
I don't think anyone knows exactly why Azanor decided to change things as he did ( well, himself, of course). I don't understand, I think it's wrong, but it's Azanor's mod, so I have two options: Declare that I don't like it and see if he changes it (did that), or make a addon mod of my own to replace the feature. Anything else, including going back and forth with you, does not actually further my agenda in any way.
I'm still using the mod (it is still fantastic), I just like it a lot less.
Also, "my friend", I understand not everyone on the internet speaks fluent English, but please, please, study the homonyms. It took me 50% longer to reply to you compared to the below, because I had to fix things to figure out what you were actually saying.
You know, that's actually an idea I could get behind.
This.
QFT. and multiple golems on the furnace do little to help.
I don't actually understand anything you're saying here, and I'm not going to try to interpret it. Can you expand?
Azanor has failed to talk about tubes. Logical conclusion, he doesn't care about what we think. More realistic conclusion, he doesn't want to talk about what is (apparently) a hotbed issue (because he's not going to change it back).
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I fail to see how changing the scanning to only give primals would help to fix the imbalance. Could someone please enlighten me? (No, seriously, I don't get it. Someone explain please?)
As to changing aspect combos... Maybe? I'm not sure how large of an effect it would have.
This would be interesting, and could be great fun, but I'm not certain of the problem you're trying to solve.
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I disagree with all of this.
Why would anyone want to use a golem for it? The tubes are a clearly better system. Why do we need a golem that does this task? Having less research with more effect would lead to a leaner and cleaner mod. -"Perfection is not when there is nothing left to add, but nothing left to take away."
I will admit, I never really understood a reason for valves. They seemed utterly pointless when the tubes handled everything well (more-or-less). Golems get tripped up on more than just mob heads, and sometimes it seems that walking over jars is painful for them (and to watch). I do believe that bug has been fixed, yes.
Lagging servers I can understand (I will come back to this momentarily), but "Oh, no, Alchemy golems are useless now"? Good. Take it out. One less thing for people to research and deal with. Golems already to a boatload of things, losing one core would still have them useful. Additionally, didn't Azanor just add an automagic cauldron device that requires no water? One less thing for a Fill golem to do. (This is to illustrate that I don't think he regretted it just because of the loss of golem usefulness).
Were tubes unbalanced? Not to me. Tubes made the crazy essentia system bearable. I could put whatever I needed in there, and it would carry it however far in a reasonable amount of time, and rarely would fuel be wasted. Golems are both slow and, to me, visually unappealing. I would not want so many little things scurrying around my base.
As to lagging servers, I will preface this with "I haven't actually read the code", so this is entirely speculation (additionally, my MC-specfic java is fairly weak). My first assumption is that Azanor modeled his code after how the book entry explains it. If this is true, I suspect that the code was absolutely horrendous - each piece of tube needing to request what it needed every tick or so? Awful.
A better way to have done it (in code) would be to have the Alembics 'push' - Each block update on a tube node would cause it to alert the Alembics to redo a list of jars connected to the tubes; The tubes themselves, after all, really don't need to do anything - they just connect the Alembics to the jars. Each tick (or second or whatever), the Alembics check to see if they have any essentia, if not, return. If they do, search the list for a matching jar and fill it. If none exist, find the first empty and use it.
This would (again, assuming the code is currently laid out as the Thaumonomicon describes the process) both decrease the server load (quite drastically, I would think) and not change how the Tubes operate (to us users, anyways).
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The rest of the update, as far as I can tell, is overwhelmingly awesome. I truly hope you revert the essentia tube changes.
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I currently have one finished series, and one active series (brief break this week for RL stuff) - and a Full Play of Deathspank - up live, with others things in the works.
If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know here or via twitter @Phill_Duno666 .
Thanks, and I hope to see you soon!
Edit: Like an idiot, I forgot a link to my youtube channel. I'm terrible at this. (Thanks Youssarian!)