I should clarify, I don't think the mechanics are too techy, as I agree, the mechanics are already there.
What I think may be too techy is the aesthetic, as it shows more of an "electric rail" feel, which might be outside the steam powered feel Notch might be going for.
They may seem too techy, which is something Notch has stated he wanted to stray from. Of course, only he knows how far "too far" is, but it's possible this is past that threshold.
Two, it could conflict with a different version of powered mine cart propulsion that actually works, or if combined trains ever happen. Especially the detectors, as a linked cart-train could contain both an occupied and non-occupied mine cart.
These are of course just hypothetical, and if aren't real concerns, then I'm all for it.
Increase natural cave formation and make it so they actually last further than a few meters /thread
The other ideas only serve to ruin the way some people enjoy the game and artificially extend play by slowing down the game. It would be like removing all the sniper rifles from an FPS because running and gunning is more fun for some people - it just wouldn't be cool - especially if you already have people who paid for the game and enjoy sniping.
A fair analogy ONLY if people enjoy strip mining. Read the rest of the thread, this argument has already been made.
Sorry if I restated some ideas... I didn't read some of your replies to what other people said. Anyways I think you should edit your first post to reflect some of the ideas that have been circulated in this thread so that people aren't confused. Also to clarify, I meant that building time is increased because it takes more time to gather the required materials in order to start building. Giant cobblestone castles aren't made out of thin air; it takes time to collect cobblestone. And what you are proposing is that it should take longer to mine things for everything but diamond.
"1) Make clean stone take a long time to mine, specifically with stone picks (30 seconds, estimate), noticeably with iron picks(10 seconds, estimate) and only a slight increase in difficulty with diamond picks(1 second estimate, or just keep it like it is)."
Diamond is obviously very rare so I'm assuming that most people will have to deal with the extended mining times you propose if your plans are implemented. But, you have already stated that you are willing to rescind the longer stone time idea so I guess that part of the question has already been answered. I'm only connecting the longer stone mining to the building aspect of the game.
I'm probably going to make a second post with a sum up of the ideas and well presented arguments of this thread.
By the way, clean stone and ONLY clean stone takes longer to mine in my suggestion. So "takes longer to mine things" is not accurate. Every other resource in the game mines at the same time, and is found in caves.
Secondly, proposal 3 specifically addresses the need to collect cobblestone.
Well let me sum up what I want to say. I love exploration. I love natural caves and I love being able to explore infinitely. What you suggest here ShadowStarshine is to remove the emphasis of strip mining to obtain resources in the game. While I'm not a Minecrafter who strip mines, I'd like to make it a point that many do use the process. They may not enjoy the strip mining, but they enjoy the rewards they obtain from strip mining. It's kind of like the ideology that the means justify the (LONG and BORING) process.
A worthy compromise in my opinion would be to keep the mining times the same as they are, but increase the number of caves. So people who don't want to strip mine don't have to and people who want to strip mine can if they want to. I really like exploring natural caves and I see the validity of your statements. However, rather than taking away one aspect of the game (mining), I think it would be a better idea to emphasize another aspect (exploring).
Furthermore, I find building to be the most fun aspect of Minecraft. You seem to suggest that exploration gives the most fun, but I think that I am most satisfied when I am finished building an extremely complex/large building out of natural resources. Not only did I take the time to mine out all of the resources I needed to create my building, but I also created a nice work of architecture, which is incredibly satisfying to me. This is the reason why creative mode is not as fun as survival in my opinion. I like to show some effort into my work: some proof that I spent a long time creating my work of art. Your suggestion for longer mining times only prolongs the process of gathering materials and frustrates those who want to build quicker.
Now at this point I can see the counterargument: that longer build times would only increase the happiness when one builds a giant building because more time is spent building it. However, at what point does spending time become wasting time? I believe that Minecraft is a good way to spend time right now. With prolonged mining times I think it would become close to the point of wasting time.
I hope you enjoyed reading my arguments and I hope that you take them into serious consideration. I tried to refrain from being like some of the other forum goers here because I understand how frustrating it is when people troll your ideas.
I'll address your last statement first, yeah, it's nice you're not being a troll. I do appropriate thought out criticism. I do think though, that a few of your statements were addressed in the thread already, but I'll be nice and restate them.
They may not enjoy the strip mining, but they enjoy the rewards they obtain from strip mining. It's kind of like the ideology that the means justify the (LONG and BORING) process.
I understand that, but if I can offer an alternative that makes the rewards the same and the process more fun, I think it's a worthy suggestion.
A worthy compromise in my opinion would be to keep the mining times the same as they are, but increase the number of caves. So people who don't want to strip mine don't have to and people who want to strip mine can if they want to. I really like exploring natural caves and I see the validity of your statements. However, rather than taking away one aspect of the game (mining), I think it would be a better idea to emphasize another aspect (exploring).
I've stated that if people truly enjoy strip mining, the stone idea should be removed and only the expansion of cave ideas should be considered. I'd only want the stone idea in place so that people who would do it while simultaneously not enjoying it, would have a push into a direction they enjoy more.
Furthermore, I find building to be the most fun aspect of Minecraft. You seem to suggest that exploration gives the most fun
No I didn't. I suggested its more fun than strip mining. I LOVE building.
but I think that I am most satisfied when I am finished building an extremely complex/large building out of natural resources. Not only did I take the time to mine out all of the resources I needed to create my building, but I also created a nice work of architecture, which is incredibly satisfying to me. This is the reason why creative mode is not as fun as survival in my opinion. I like to show some effort into my work: some proof that I spent a long time creating my work of art. Your suggestion for longer mining times only prolongs the process of gathering materials and frustrates those who want to build quicker.
Now at this point I can see the counterargument: that longer build times would only increase the happiness when one builds a giant building because more time is spent building it. However, at what point does spending time become wasting time? I believe that Minecraft is a good way to spend time right now. With prolonged mining times I think it would become close to the point of wasting time.
In what way is there prolonged mining times. I need you to be specific because a lot of people replying are showing only part comprehension for some of the ideas. I don't actually think there is too long an increased time to do any building, except in the case of making large underground caverns which require diamond. Everything else is basically unaffected.
I feel the same way about building in Survival. It has enhanced meaning.
I agree, and as I've said, if people tell me they love strip mining and want to keep it in because it is fun for them, I'd drop the stone idea and declare it bad. I don't however feel bad for making a suggestion of removing an aspect of game play if people don't actually find it fun.
I myself strip mine. You ask, why? I use it to gather resources. Why, when cave exploring is so much more fun? Because exploring caves can be a huge pain in the ass sometimes. Its nice to have an alternative to spelunking so that you can take a break and do something other than constantly placing torches down and putting your life on the line. Even though I may not be having that much fun while strip-mining, I am sure having more than fun I would be exploring caves after an hour or so. And at the same time, I am getting something accomplished. I am getting those resources so I can prepare myself better for the next time I do go exploring and I am getting resources for my house.
Ok, just to make sure I have a feel of where you are coming from, could I paraphrase this as:
"It is nice to have an easier alternative of acquiring minerals that also progresses the game, rather than the only option being stressful and difficult."
As it stands, I play the same way you do. I do think the unfunness is certainly addressable, and perhaps better addressed by making caving better rather than making strip mining impossible. The original reason for that proposals existence would be for players who strip mine because it is there and easy, while simultaneously not enjoying it. You may ask "Well, why the hell would they do it then?". It's just the psychology of gamers. If you've ever played an Xbox game with a tedious achievement that says "collect 100 of whatever" and done it or know of others who have done it, you'd understand how it is in human nature to simply do what is available, whether or not you liked it. I'm, personally, one of those idiots. I hated Farcry 2 because I felt the need to collect the diamonds (diamonds again, ironic) which was a time consuming and boring process, and if the choice was removed from that game and my only choice was to go through the game with slightly inferior weaponry, the game would have strangely been better. So all in all, I think its a fair question to ask "Is strip mining fun" when making suggestions that may circumvent it.
Currently, the only natural cobblestone is in dungeons. If you put cobblestone in cave entrances and etc., it would be harder to find dungeons than it is now.
Seriously? Read proposal 3. Same as the last guy I responded to, there is no excuse for only reading half of what I wrote and objecting to it.
That was me with the casual gamer angle. I don't mean casual in regards to monsters at all. I was mostly referring to your plan to increase the length of mining, in terms of people with time-based restrictions on their gaming; casual as in "not investing countless hours into a game". Adding extra time to basic mining cuts drastically into the amount of things that could be done by someone who only has X amount of time to spend on a game. Anyone who could only spend say, an hour or so for a Minecraft session would be forced to either explore caves, live on the surface with poor tools, or not bother playing. That restricts the type of experiences they could get out of the game, much moreso than others who have time to burn. Suggesting that they play on peaceful is further restricting their game experience to "look in a cave for a rock".
That was also me with the assertion that the extra time would be damaging to the game as a whole, which is not a false assertion; it's based on my comments above about casual gamers, and also the fact that the game is much more than a linear progression to acquire diamonds. Quite apart from strip-mining, this ruins people's ability to build underground or with mass amounts of stone with any kind of real progress. If you're not interested in finding diamonds then much of your game has become an exercise in holding a mouse button.
Ok, I can take this on a limited time gamer angle.
The assertion I think you were making, was that a lot of my suggestions drastically slow the speed of the game, which I think is untrue. I do agree, caving would take longer, but not by a large amount. Base cobblestone/wood/dirt can all be cleared away at the same pace it always has, and building takes the same amount of time.
It is unfair to say I am making basic mining impossible, where as it is more accurate to say I am making base mining different. I would say, my suggestion makes redstone/diamond take longer than the current flow of the game, but coal/iron at relatively the same pace.
I also don't buy it as a fact that any change to Minecraft that would slow the pace is automatically a bad thing. It is or it isn't, on its own merits.
I don't understand why anyone is forced to have poor tools when anyone can go into a cave and get iron relatively quickly, and basically at the same flow as the game stands now. Perhaps 5 minutes more preparation (weapons/armor/pig steaks), which I don't think is game changing or unfun.
Suggesting that they play on peaceful is further restricting their game experience to "look in a cave for a rock".
I specifically have issue with this statement. Not because it is untrue, but because you are making it sound like it is a bad result. If you want to play without conflict, and you were someone who plays on peaceful, is it so bad to go through a cave and grab minerals off of the walls and not be able to drill into random wall sections looking for minerals?
As fun as cave-diving is, it's not the whole focus of the game.
I know what you are trying to say, but don't blanket statement it. You know for a fact I'm not asserting it's the whole focus of the game. Everything I've ever built in the world I have now could be done with this proposed change with the same difficulty.
Actually no, that is not 100% true. I built a water tunnel through a mountain, and I would have needed a diamond pick. Which I already had when I made it, but regardless, I would have been forced to need one.
That's why you're getting so much flak and commentary about choice. It goes beyond a debate about the benefits of cave-diving over stripmines; their relative benefits/drawbacks are irrelevant compared to having the choice of which one you would like to use at any given time. The game is built to offer many different people a game that they can enjoy, whether it's PvP, exploration, building, monster-fighting, something else, or a taste of everything. Your suggestions at their heart are based almost entirely around removing strip-mining in favour of spelunking, when currently both of those options are available already.
I agree, and as I've said, if people tell me they love strip mining and want to keep it in because it is fun for them, I'd drop the stone idea and declare it bad. I don't however feel bad for making a suggestion of removing an aspect of game play if people don't actually find it fun.
I like your ideas on making caves more interesting, but not at the expense of someone else's gameplay. That's really not a necessary thing. If caving is more fun, then cave-oriented people will like them even more, and it may draw other people to check them out when they may not currently; but there's no need to force people who aren't into it to go there.
I agree, if there is people who dont want to cave and want to strip mine only, then just refining the proposal to making caves more fun is better.
Well, exactly. What if. If people don't like cave exploring, and people love strip mining, it's a bad idea. Granted. Feedback, however, on that specific point, is required.
There are surely people who do not wish to go cave exploring. I know a lot of people come close to shitting their pants when they explore caves. And even if the number of people that like cave exploring (which I must say, is probably higher), how does this idea add to their gameplay at all? As shown, it only takes away, as far as I can see.
Let those that don't like cave exploring speak. I don't want to presume for anyone.
To your question, the stone aspect doesn't add to the enjoyment, the intertwining caves from the surface do. The point of the stone aspect is to guide players to that fun goal. The 9 points I wrote in the OP were part of the reaction to the stone proposal which I thought could be positive things.
And there is something you may have missed. You need cobblestone to make furnaces.
As for the argument that this game is getting objectives and should be based like that, I played Grand Theft Auto for hours upon hours and I never completed the storyline. That game was still ridiculously fun.
You make a good point. Though I didn't say the game had to be played in terms of the over all objective. Only that there would be one, and that the argument that the game is good because it doesn't have one is an incorrect assumption.
I agree with basically everything you said in your post otherwise.
@Hypevosa
Your post seems to only address parts of my OP and intentionally ignores other parts as there are assertions of a flow of game play that my OP specifically disagrees with.
I don't think you are getting it, so I drew a picture just for you. You have two equally fun goals (or more, but two is all I need for now) that the player can achieve. The player doesn't have to achieve either if he does not want to. There is no reason for the player to be unhappy.
Looking at your diagram, I get what you are saying. I will state, though, that "Build" is far to vague and untrue. If you are saying "Building in places where stone exist", then granted, I give you that. But it doesn't prevent making wooden houses and such at the same pace the game current exists. Though your point is still valid. It certainly would cause a delay on stone carving based building.
But what if he doesn't like doing this? Then the player gets to walk away with a sad face. With minecraft the way it is, there is no reason for the player to walk away from the game because he has to do something he doesn't like.
Well, exactly. What if. If people don't like cave exploring, and people love strip mining, it's a bad idea. Granted. Feedback, however, on that specific point, is required.
Okay, I'm going to try to get to everyones comments today and address them. If I skip over yours, it's likely because I've already addressed someone who said exactly what you said already.
But first, I want to talk about a common argument I see popping up, why it is a bad argument and how you can state it in another way if it is what you mean.
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"It is a bad idea because it removes choice".
I stated this in a previous post, I'll probably amend this to the OP if I remake this thread with adjustments. Choices are not what make games good. Good choices are what make games good.
If in Mario 1, you could pass each level by going underground and slowly mining your way to the flag pole without encountering monsters, the game would be less fun. You can argue that you just don't play it like that then. You're not being forced to mine through the level. No, of course not, but when a game has a goal of a sort you do what you can to achieve it and you then rate the experience based on the enjoyment of doing so.
Not only does Survival have what I would call "soft-goals", which is gathering resources, Notch plans to implement, one day, a "hard-goal", which is an overarching narrative that could potentially end the game (Which he has stated he wants to be near impossible, but that the goal be there). There is nothing wrong with evaluating how the enjoyment levels of the choices we are presented provide us with fun. There are many choices we currently do not have. We do not have the ability to spawn resources (Without cheats). We do not have the ability to destroy blocks with our hands in a fraction of a second. These impositions are good things.
Now, what you should be doing, is evaluating the choice of strip mining. I don't think my opinion of strip mining is some ultimate truth that everyone should adhere to. My proposal is an idea based on my opinion, possibly shared by others, possibly not, that strip mining is a choice that detracts from the fun of the game.
However, if you post something like this:
For the record, I sort of enjoy the the mines I make myself.
Ores arn't that common, but when I stumble upon a vein of redstone, diamond, or even iron, It's like opening a little present burried very deep underground.
You have just made a conflicting, but extremely valid statement. If you want to defend strip mining, please do it on its own merits, like this guy did, and not on the fallacy that choice is ALWAYS good.
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Making something as integral to this game as mining into a tedious hassle is highly counter-productive to the game as a whole.
My proposal specifically states ways to make it not integral. This is a false assertion.
This idea will kill the game for people who actually like doing careful, planned underground work, wound it for people who prefer a more varied approach to resource gathering, and be seriously off-putting to casual gamers.
I'd love to know what % of people find it fun, I may have to make a poll. If a decent % do find enjoyment in strip mining, I'd personally be for scrapping the stone idea. You might think "Well everyone here says its fun". Actually, no. I think 2 people said it was fun. Everyone else is defending choice so far.
Aren't you just a peachy old fellow?
Anyways, as said before, to remove something that is in the ****ing title doesn't make sense. It's like making Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare about pissing on a tree, or Age of Empires involve you standing in a blizzard trying to find which way is up/
A condescending post with superfluous analogies. You've offered nothing of substance.
Ok ShadowStarshine, although I agree some people here are replying like little kids it's actually your fault. Well not really, but you're provoking it.
No. You're being purposely ignorant, and a smartass.
This sums up why perfectly to be honest.
You're so convinced of your own opinion that you refuse/deny to understand the point other people are trying to make (purposefully ignorant) and instead retort with semi-comical remarks and restating what you last said (smartass). This provokes annoyed responses even if the poster themselves don't really know why.
But anyways, don't bother commenting on that since it's oftopic.
Don't try and get a last word in and ask me not to comment. That is unfair.
I am not so convinced of my opinion that I'm unwilling to take in criticism. Like you said, many posters were acting like kids. The first replies to this post were full of blanket statements, insults, posts that ignored parts of my OP to support an untrue argument (ex. How would we make stoves!?) and other fallacies. The only way I could have been ignorant was to make assumptions that these terrible posts have some higher truth that I must somehow extrapolate out of the garbage of the rest of it.
Thank goodness the second half of replies have increased in worth exponentially and I now actually have conflicting viewpoints with some substance, which I will take seriously. So don't call me ignorant.
Am I a smart ass? Yes, a bit I am. I have a dry sense of wit and I've probably used it in some of my replies. Feel free to call me a smart ass, but given the poor quality of the original replies, can you blame me? I actually thought I used more intelligence responding than I wanted to, which is probably a result of mass debating human rights against religious folks all the time.
You walk around and see a big mountain you've never seen before with light coming out of it. You walk towards it and see a cave with lava quite close to the surface. You return to your little base get geared up and go out to explore. You find that this cavern doesn't seem to end, but being the smart explorer you are, you took 8 stacks of torches with you and are gradually descending into the earth (without doing any kind of mining mind you). At some point you return out of the cave as a champion with just a few more torches, no more arrows or swords or food but full of diamond, redstone, iron and gold ore. After dumping of your treasure you reequip yourself and go back into the cave. After stripping the mine of all it's resources you move on to the next hole and the story repeats itself.
Right now I like to mine using stone picks so when I go explore I take about 9 stone picks with me and one diamond pick. However in your idea of minecraft I really would only need to take 1 diamond pick with me as the path is already laid out for you, you just have to take the goodies.
Now, to be honest this does sound very fun. It sounds a LOT more fun then stripmining (reason I never do it). But here is the problem your idea presents. To encourage this grand adventure you want to make mining less important. You really do want to change this game into Exlorecraft.
This is pretty close, but a few things were a bit off. I didn't insinuate lava is closer to the surface than general.
I suppose the flow is closer in my mind to:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches. (pretty close to normal game flow so far)
Make weaponry/armor/health items (This is more important, due to going into caves)
Make signs/roadmarks so you don't get lost. (Also now more important)
Make a few picks and a few shovels.
Go into cave, fight monsters, picking out coal and iron. Go back when you want to make sure not to lose your important loot. Or heck, bring treasure chest so you can slap it down half way and securely put stuff in it.
Re-equipt, go down further. Repeat until near bottom.
Find bloodstone/diamond.
Somewhere in this mess, find dungeons/other narratives. Estimated time in real hours (3-4) (perhaps longer, if monsters give you big trouble, but of course you can set your own difficulty)
My current game flow, with getting diamond in mind is:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches.
Make 10ish picks, 4ish shovels.
Dig a staircase into the bottom of the game.
Make more picks/shovels.
Dig sideways until I hit diamond.
Estimated time in real hours (.5-2) (depending how quick diamond shows up)
I would think that in my example game flow, finding diamond is still exciting.
Just not one I completely agree with (but seriously, get rid of that 30 second idea, cuz that's just wrong) =P
Sure. What do you think of, say, 6-8 seconds?
@Vindicar
I'm sorry, but you offered nothing of substance or really gave reasoning to your blanket statements.
@Hypevosa
This is another choice argument. If you feel strip mining is a positive choice in the game, offer reasoning.
@The guy who said it might discourage casual gamer (I lost where that was said)
That's a good point. Perhaps players who are into Facebook games (which is a large amount of revenue in the game industry) would be off put by having to deal with monsters. Although, I feel just putting it on peaceful for those players is still pretty good, and they can enjoy caving in safety. Do you still feel that would be off putting for them. If so, why?
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What I think may be too techy is the aesthetic, as it shows more of an "electric rail" feel, which might be outside the steam powered feel Notch might be going for.
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They may seem too techy, which is something Notch has stated he wanted to stray from. Of course, only he knows how far "too far" is, but it's possible this is past that threshold.
Two, it could conflict with a different version of powered mine cart propulsion that actually works, or if combined trains ever happen. Especially the detectors, as a linked cart-train could contain both an occupied and non-occupied mine cart.
These are of course just hypothetical, and if aren't real concerns, then I'm all for it.
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Thanks for the feedback thus far.
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A fair analogy ONLY if people enjoy strip mining. Read the rest of the thread, this argument has already been made.
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I'm probably going to make a second post with a sum up of the ideas and well presented arguments of this thread.
By the way, clean stone and ONLY clean stone takes longer to mine in my suggestion. So "takes longer to mine things" is not accurate. Every other resource in the game mines at the same time, and is found in caves.
Secondly, proposal 3 specifically addresses the need to collect cobblestone.
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I know, and if it wasn't for the fact that your avatar gave me 20 seconds of amusement I'd think your presence on this thread was useless.
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I'll address your last statement first, yeah, it's nice you're not being a troll. I do appropriate thought out criticism. I do think though, that a few of your statements were addressed in the thread already, but I'll be nice and restate them.
I understand that, but if I can offer an alternative that makes the rewards the same and the process more fun, I think it's a worthy suggestion.
I've stated that if people truly enjoy strip mining, the stone idea should be removed and only the expansion of cave ideas should be considered. I'd only want the stone idea in place so that people who would do it while simultaneously not enjoying it, would have a push into a direction they enjoy more.
No I didn't. I suggested its more fun than strip mining. I LOVE building.
In what way is there prolonged mining times. I need you to be specific because a lot of people replying are showing only part comprehension for some of the ideas. I don't actually think there is too long an increased time to do any building, except in the case of making large underground caverns which require diamond. Everything else is basically unaffected.
I feel the same way about building in Survival. It has enhanced meaning.
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Ok, just to make sure I have a feel of where you are coming from, could I paraphrase this as:
"It is nice to have an easier alternative of acquiring minerals that also progresses the game, rather than the only option being stressful and difficult."
As it stands, I play the same way you do. I do think the unfunness is certainly addressable, and perhaps better addressed by making caving better rather than making strip mining impossible. The original reason for that proposals existence would be for players who strip mine because it is there and easy, while simultaneously not enjoying it. You may ask "Well, why the hell would they do it then?". It's just the psychology of gamers. If you've ever played an Xbox game with a tedious achievement that says "collect 100 of whatever" and done it or know of others who have done it, you'd understand how it is in human nature to simply do what is available, whether or not you liked it. I'm, personally, one of those idiots. I hated Farcry 2 because I felt the need to collect the diamonds (diamonds again, ironic) which was a time consuming and boring process, and if the choice was removed from that game and my only choice was to go through the game with slightly inferior weaponry, the game would have strangely been better. So all in all, I think its a fair question to ask "Is strip mining fun" when making suggestions that may circumvent it.
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Seriously? Read proposal 3. Same as the last guy I responded to, there is no excuse for only reading half of what I wrote and objecting to it.
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Read the original post. Again. Read proposal 3 specifically. This is a display of TERRIBLE comprehension.
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Ok, I can take this on a limited time gamer angle.
The assertion I think you were making, was that a lot of my suggestions drastically slow the speed of the game, which I think is untrue. I do agree, caving would take longer, but not by a large amount. Base cobblestone/wood/dirt can all be cleared away at the same pace it always has, and building takes the same amount of time.
It is unfair to say I am making basic mining impossible, where as it is more accurate to say I am making base mining different. I would say, my suggestion makes redstone/diamond take longer than the current flow of the game, but coal/iron at relatively the same pace.
I also don't buy it as a fact that any change to Minecraft that would slow the pace is automatically a bad thing. It is or it isn't, on its own merits.
I don't understand why anyone is forced to have poor tools when anyone can go into a cave and get iron relatively quickly, and basically at the same flow as the game stands now. Perhaps 5 minutes more preparation (weapons/armor/pig steaks), which I don't think is game changing or unfun.
I specifically have issue with this statement. Not because it is untrue, but because you are making it sound like it is a bad result. If you want to play without conflict, and you were someone who plays on peaceful, is it so bad to go through a cave and grab minerals off of the walls and not be able to drill into random wall sections looking for minerals?
I know what you are trying to say, but don't blanket statement it. You know for a fact I'm not asserting it's the whole focus of the game. Everything I've ever built in the world I have now could be done with this proposed change with the same difficulty.
Actually no, that is not 100% true. I built a water tunnel through a mountain, and I would have needed a diamond pick. Which I already had when I made it, but regardless, I would have been forced to need one.
I agree, and as I've said, if people tell me they love strip mining and want to keep it in because it is fun for them, I'd drop the stone idea and declare it bad. I don't however feel bad for making a suggestion of removing an aspect of game play if people don't actually find it fun.
I agree, if there is people who dont want to cave and want to strip mine only, then just refining the proposal to making caves more fun is better.
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Let those that don't like cave exploring speak. I don't want to presume for anyone.
To your question, the stone aspect doesn't add to the enjoyment, the intertwining caves from the surface do. The point of the stone aspect is to guide players to that fun goal. The 9 points I wrote in the OP were part of the reaction to the stone proposal which I thought could be positive things.
Pleeease be trolling.
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You make a good point. Though I didn't say the game had to be played in terms of the over all objective. Only that there would be one, and that the argument that the game is good because it doesn't have one is an incorrect assumption.
I agree with basically everything you said in your post otherwise.
@Hypevosa
Your post seems to only address parts of my OP and intentionally ignores other parts as there are assertions of a flow of game play that my OP specifically disagrees with.
Looking at your diagram, I get what you are saying. I will state, though, that "Build" is far to vague and untrue. If you are saying "Building in places where stone exist", then granted, I give you that. But it doesn't prevent making wooden houses and such at the same pace the game current exists. Though your point is still valid. It certainly would cause a delay on stone carving based building.
Well, exactly. What if. If people don't like cave exploring, and people love strip mining, it's a bad idea. Granted. Feedback, however, on that specific point, is required.
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But first, I want to talk about a common argument I see popping up, why it is a bad argument and how you can state it in another way if it is what you mean.
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"It is a bad idea because it removes choice".
I stated this in a previous post, I'll probably amend this to the OP if I remake this thread with adjustments. Choices are not what make games good. Good choices are what make games good.
If in Mario 1, you could pass each level by going underground and slowly mining your way to the flag pole without encountering monsters, the game would be less fun. You can argue that you just don't play it like that then. You're not being forced to mine through the level. No, of course not, but when a game has a goal of a sort you do what you can to achieve it and you then rate the experience based on the enjoyment of doing so.
Not only does Survival have what I would call "soft-goals", which is gathering resources, Notch plans to implement, one day, a "hard-goal", which is an overarching narrative that could potentially end the game (Which he has stated he wants to be near impossible, but that the goal be there). There is nothing wrong with evaluating how the enjoyment levels of the choices we are presented provide us with fun. There are many choices we currently do not have. We do not have the ability to spawn resources (Without cheats). We do not have the ability to destroy blocks with our hands in a fraction of a second. These impositions are good things.
Now, what you should be doing, is evaluating the choice of strip mining. I don't think my opinion of strip mining is some ultimate truth that everyone should adhere to. My proposal is an idea based on my opinion, possibly shared by others, possibly not, that strip mining is a choice that detracts from the fun of the game.
However, if you post something like this:
You have just made a conflicting, but extremely valid statement. If you want to defend strip mining, please do it on its own merits, like this guy did, and not on the fallacy that choice is ALWAYS good.
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My proposal specifically states ways to make it not integral. This is a false assertion.
I'd love to know what % of people find it fun, I may have to make a poll. If a decent % do find enjoyment in strip mining, I'd personally be for scrapping the stone idea. You might think "Well everyone here says its fun". Actually, no. I think 2 people said it was fun. Everyone else is defending choice so far.
A condescending post with superfluous analogies. You've offered nothing of substance.
Don't try and get a last word in and ask me not to comment. That is unfair.
I am not so convinced of my opinion that I'm unwilling to take in criticism. Like you said, many posters were acting like kids. The first replies to this post were full of blanket statements, insults, posts that ignored parts of my OP to support an untrue argument (ex. How would we make stoves!?) and other fallacies. The only way I could have been ignorant was to make assumptions that these terrible posts have some higher truth that I must somehow extrapolate out of the garbage of the rest of it.
Thank goodness the second half of replies have increased in worth exponentially and I now actually have conflicting viewpoints with some substance, which I will take seriously. So don't call me ignorant.
Am I a smart ass? Yes, a bit I am. I have a dry sense of wit and I've probably used it in some of my replies. Feel free to call me a smart ass, but given the poor quality of the original replies, can you blame me? I actually thought I used more intelligence responding than I wanted to, which is probably a result of mass debating human rights against religious folks all the time.
This is pretty close, but a few things were a bit off. I didn't insinuate lava is closer to the surface than general.
I suppose the flow is closer in my mind to:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches. (pretty close to normal game flow so far)
Make weaponry/armor/health items (This is more important, due to going into caves)
Make signs/roadmarks so you don't get lost. (Also now more important)
Make a few picks and a few shovels.
Go into cave, fight monsters, picking out coal and iron. Go back when you want to make sure not to lose your important loot. Or heck, bring treasure chest so you can slap it down half way and securely put stuff in it.
Re-equipt, go down further. Repeat until near bottom.
Find bloodstone/diamond.
Somewhere in this mess, find dungeons/other narratives.
Estimated time in real hours (3-4) (perhaps longer, if monsters give you big trouble, but of course you can set your own difficulty)
My current game flow, with getting diamond in mind is:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches.
Make 10ish picks, 4ish shovels.
Dig a staircase into the bottom of the game.
Make more picks/shovels.
Dig sideways until I hit diamond.
Estimated time in real hours (.5-2) (depending how quick diamond shows up)
I would think that in my example game flow, finding diamond is still exciting.
Sure. What do you think of, say, 6-8 seconds?
@Vindicar
I'm sorry, but you offered nothing of substance or really gave reasoning to your blanket statements.
@Hypevosa
This is another choice argument. If you feel strip mining is a positive choice in the game, offer reasoning.
@The guy who said it might discourage casual gamer (I lost where that was said)
That's a good point. Perhaps players who are into Facebook games (which is a large amount of revenue in the game industry) would be off put by having to deal with monsters. Although, I feel just putting it on peaceful for those players is still pretty good, and they can enjoy caving in safety. Do you still feel that would be off putting for them. If so, why?
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