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  • 1

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    I believe water coming through blocks is a "yes/ no" decision, one not requiring more power than the other. A tiny bit more processing power is dedicated to flowing *further*, and which way to do so. But it won't be any more processing power than dumping a bucket of water on some random spot on the uneven ground.

    People interested in water behavior and how much power it takes could use the Carpet Mod (showcased by gnembon in this video).



    I would suggest setting up different scenarios using running water and then the carpet mod to determine how much processing power is actually used between the *start* of dumping a bucket of water vs. water that has already completed running down a slope and runs no further. See if you can figure out if there is a difference in processing time used in "running" and "completed". As a *guess*, I wouldn't think having a "fence" in the way would matter vs. nothing being in the way, but if you set up a good test environment we can determine if my guess is accurate or not when we have a snapshot with this feature, presuming a Carpet Mod version would be quickly enough made for the snapshot.

    I also want to voice appreciation to @Vampire_Asunder. I also don't get the interest in expressing, on one hand, "I don't like anything since Minecraft 1.four_or_five_years_ago" and tying it with, "so I hate this new feature and I wish Mojang would focus on what players really want."

    People are *STILL* doing NEW game development for the Commodore 64 computer. See here: https://retro.moe/2015/02/01/coding-for-the-commodore-64-what-happened-in-the-last-25-years/

    And that is OK-FINE. I really respect Grian, and he's playing on a server with a minecraft version from before they had hunger bars. And that's cool. If you like that play, you *SHOULD* be doing that. Heck, want to be really cool? Do a series of videos promoting the differences between the *current* version and Minecraft 1.four_or_five_years_ago, and showcase the fun to be had on that version, and *specifics* on how Mojang could bring the fun *BACK* by returning those features to the current game. That would be useful and constructive for the community. "Every new version since 1.four_or_five_years_ago sucks so I hate this new feature and you should too..." Not so constructive. The game has moved on, WHILE ALLOWING PEOPLE WHO WISH TO ENJOY OLD VERSIONS. That's way cool. Very few games allow anything like that. If you want to stay back, do so, and enjoy. But Minecraft as a game has moved on. The bulk of the community has moved with it. I have attempted to build things underwater, and I've also enjoyed underwater builds from maps by some really good content creators. Underwater "coral" and "seaweed", sea wrecks, and so on. The "underwater air pockets" are horribly annoying. The Vanilla ocean floor is lifeless and dull. In my opinion, this change is necessary and a long time coming. I'm excited about it, but I'm open to constructive ideas on how this can work without harming current common underwater structures (such as with farms) or ways we play.

    But "Nah, I only play 1.whatever, the best Minecraft version ever, and this water physics thing suxxors" won't really win me over.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    The differences are in emphasis and preference. I don't think it is likely Mojang will code for two kinds of each wooden fence, two kinds of each stair, two kinds of iron bars, and so on. Even if they use reskinning to emphasize how "different" they are, I feel it would be too much coding and confusion for too little gain. Hoppers now have a hit-box matching their visual outline in Bedrock 1.2.5, and this is likely to go to Java Edition also. I suspect this means water will flow around the bottom of hoppers as well. Would Mojang need to code for two kinds of hoppers? Two kinds of chests? Two kinds of enchanting tables? An extra set of skins for all these? Two kinds of pressure plates for 6 variety of wooden, stone, iron, gold? It isn't just fence. All non-full blocks that don't pop off in water will have to deal with this. Every last one. Beds? Farmland? Grass path? Cake? So many non-full block items!

    As far as the reaction to builds underwater, I'm overstating the case. It was just disappointing to see the work of people who made these underwater wrecks to explore, seaweed forests, and so on made to appear with all the "bubbles" around them, and how much better they would look without it. I'm glad this will be corrected.


    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope is also a good reference. They even sell a poster full of logical fallacies!

    The Devs decided the Ocean was too barren. I agree with that assessment. They decided to fill it with life and with things to explore. I applaud that decision. The Devs may have looked at what others have built of underwater bases, ruins, and so on. They may have attempted doing so on their own. Either way, if they decided it sucked badly, I would agree with this also. I've played and explored maps with underwater ruins, wrecked ships, and so on. It was a beauty to see stuff *there*, but what was there was pretty much an eyesore because "bubbles!"

    I don't agree that we should have two sets of everything, a "bubble" and a "no bubble" fence, "bubble/ no bubble" stairs, and so on. We should have "water physics", it should be consistent and simple within its own pattern of behavior. I believe that is the path they are going to take while creating new tools to deal with the new physics such as working airlocks, perhaps different behavior with sponges, and so on. We'll find out more as they get to Snapshot time for 1.14.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    Yeah, the discussion wandered away from "underwater building" towards "Farm Hate." I think "Farm Hate" merits its own thread. As far as water mechanics, this is going to happen in an upcoming version. It's on the slate.

    The Mojang development team also know who the major YouTube people are enough to fly many of them out to Sweden, meet with them at E3, talk with them at prior MineCons or otherwise interact with them. This would include Farm Builders such as Tango Tek and Mumbo Jumbo as well as builders such as Grian or promoters of mods and games such as LogDotZip. Your love or hate for those YouTubers who earn money from promoting Minecraft is not particularly relevant. What is relevant is that Mojang is likely to give consideration as to how these people currently build and what Mojang thinks they need, as well as for the teams creating things on Marketplace. If Mojang has a "what you do if" or "what would you need for building cool stuff underwater", the company has people making money off Minecraft and promoting this game to ask under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA's). The YouTube producers are not the end-all and be-all of the Minecraft community, but I think it's a good start for getting a fresh point-of-view on what nuts and bolts need to be created to have an Underwater release work well *AND* be promoted by the people who, as I said, earn a living off of doing their thing.

    "Nobody builds underwater" is flatly false. Enough people are making underwater builds and enjoying watching OTHERS create builds underwater that there is money riding on this. It's a thing. Recognize it rather than denying it exists or isn't relevant.

    "There shouldn't be farms" merits its own discussion elsewhere. But I can assure you the people who build farms as part of their real-life livelihood on YouTube will voice an opinion on what they will require to keep people subscribing and keep that ad revenue coming in. You may not agree with them (they don't often agree with one another). You may not watch them or like the YouTubers. But if you are not going to recognize a done deal and seek to positively participate in how water mechanics will be realized within a year or so, you should at least learn to live with disappointment as well as learn to lower your expectations.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 2

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth
    Quote from BoomBap»


    I don't think so... I use pipes in my modded world and well... It really takes the vanilla feel away. It makes it too simple. I like it that in vanilla you need to use hoppers, water etc. In vanilla you can do everything, but it's not so simple, that's what I like about vanilla. Ofc with this style, performance becomes an issue with large scale builds. But i think pipes and other tech stuff is better left for the tech-mod community, who use them in massive/complex builds. It would make items sorters and basic farms way too simple for regular players. Maybe a simple straight line pipe system to reduce the performance issue of hoppers cheking for items every tick would be good, but sorting pipes, round-robin pipes etc is something I would rather not see in vanilla.


    I understand your opinion, and to some extent, I agree with you. I do make Redstone filters on things as a matter-of-course, though they are bulky and not as "nice" as glass "pipes" with http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/CraftBook/Pipes. I'm not suggesting "pipes" be quite that technical. What I mainly hope for is that if water elevators for entities like villagers or ice-water pipes for items no longer work, I'd like for us to have some suitable replacement that still fits "Minecraft", but allows us to continue to create things like water elevators and ice-water pipes without the current problems and unintended consequences associated with those means of transport using water.
    Quote from Djarogames»

    Mob farms are structures abusing the game's design flaws for free items. Why should they be possible

    So YOU are telling ME what I do or do not care about? I care about underwater builds.



    So... when *I* enjoy building creative means to avoid tedious but necessary activities in Minecraft, it's ok for you to tell ME what I shouldn't care about, but when someone tells YOU that you shouldn't care about things YOU enjoy, you won't allow that.

    Ok. Got it. So long as we are on the same page.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 4

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    Life is change. It isn't *JUST* developers that want to build underwater. Mumbo Jumbo on Hermitcraft Season 5 is making an underwater base with an aquarium. It is awkward and painful to watch at times because of the current state of Minecraft design for underwater builds. And yet, he's doing it, he's having fun, AND Mumbo Jumbo is LATE to that game. Others have built underwater bases before in earlier Hermitcraft seasons. I've played with it a bit, and I'm interested in making a base out of an Underwater Monument. Those are supposed to be excellent XP farms, done correctly. Better than even Enderman farms. Mojang looks to bring life and exploration to the Oceans. I am among a very large number of "nobodies" looking to forward to these changes.

    We may have to agree to disagree, but this change to water physics and Ocean Life is necessary, if not overdue.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 2

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth
    Quote from WegieLord»

    I know but I also miss the communities that came with the versions. I can't play with people if I'm using an older version unless I want to host the server but even then you won't see any players

    So... keep everyone ELSE using the old gameplay you like when we could enjoy new features and gameplay? I don't really find anything morally compelling about forcing the ENTIRE Minecraft community to play the way I want as if my style of play is the only valid way to enjoy the game. Why not team up with the people who insist "everything after 1.7.2 sucks" and hang out with them? If "snooping" is turned on, Mojang knows what portion of people actually enjoys older versions. Show people why "older is better." Convince them to play your preferred version. If your vision of Minecraft is the correct one, why not persuade other players rather than demand Mojang keep with "older is better?"

    But when you say, "I feel like they are changing a game that is already finished and that they need to just leave alone" this really means "this game should stop growing and die." People are still developing software and hardware for the Commodore 64. Refer to https://retro.moe/2015/02/01/coding-for-the-commodore-64-what-happened-in-the-last-25-years/

    Microsoft paid a nice chunk of change for the Minecraft IP. They have a moral right and a financial obligation to make good on their purchase, and their intention is for a "100 year game." C64 game development, still happening 30 years later, is *not* likely to ever make money for anyone. And if Minecraft stays at "pick your version as finished", it isn't going to make any money either. Sometimes you have to learn to lower your expectations. Or perhaps even learn to face the new challenges that the world has to offer every day.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    I used a terrain generation mod that used slabs and stairs to "smooth" the terrain and make it more interesting. And look stupid because of the water bubbles. I also saw the same generator create underwater shipwrecks that ALSO looked stupid underwater because of the air bubbles. The generator also used leaf blocks for seaweed. It all looks just wrong. I'm currently using two iron doors side-by-side but set so that someone can simply walk through the gap between the iron door "airlock" but water won't flow through.

    Now Mojang is going to tackle the "mostly lifeless ocean" and make it interesting to explore for more than just the underwater monuments. I strongly support this action. But if they don't make changes with underwater physics, it will not only hamper players making things underwater... it will make it hard for Mojang to create shipwrecks and other underwater ruins to explore. If you are going to bother investing in Ocean as a biome worthy of exploration and interest, why not do it right? Underwater physics makes it possible to "do it right". I can't see why anyone would fight this.

    While one person complains of broken farms because of the water physics, I read someone else complaining farms are possible at all. If Mojang is going to get noise no matter what they do, they will (and should) do what they find is in their best interest for Minecraft to be that "100 year" game. As to farms anyway, this is going to affect ice/ water pipes. This is where you build a one-tile wide "pipe" with ice as the "floor" then use water to push items in a direction, then have the items "skip" under a half-slab into the next segment of water. This is actually more of an "item transport" issue than explicitly "farms", but that solution isn't without it's problems. Refer to Mumbo Jumbo's Season 5 where his base is so huge the items in the pipes collect at the edges of unloaded chunks. When he finally enters the chunk, a bajillion items from the pipe get stuck over hoppers that can't *possibly* collect them fast enough and the item entity count brings the server to its knees. Someone had to go in with a lava bucket to kill the "ridiculous item count" so the server would function again. THIS is *NOT* a "100 year" solution to the problem of item transortation within the game.

    Then again, neither are lengthy hopper chains. http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/CraftBook/Pipes offers a mod that turns glass into "pipes". I had a huge base, but I don't recall "pipes" causing the problems Mumbo had this year. Perhaps Mojang could work on in-game vanilla "pipes" to solve the item transport issues... a version of a "hopper" in function but made to move many items across long distances. Woudl this sound like more of a "100 year" solution than continuing to use "water-ice pipes" or expensive hopper chains in Vanilla?

    This is a done deal. I don't think the community could change this course, and in my opinion it is the *right* course. A better question would be to ask what *specific* concerns we need to have addressed for good underwater building if we have water physics?


    1. Item Transport (using water-ice in place of hopper chains).
    2. Air-locks (A constantly flooded underwater base is no fun).
    3. Infinite water supplies should work as expected.
    4. Water elevators and conveyors for mobs should work as expected, or have a means to move mobs. These don't work in the Nether... what if this were solved without water so we could use it in the Nether on Blaze farms? Sure, I'd love to trade in water conveyance for something better to move villagers and mobs including Blaze!

    What are some other things we do with water that could use a better solution, and what might that solution be?


    I wouldn't worry so much about "wash farms", though I expect flooding will still uproot crops. After creating a "normal" farm, you are better off either creating a cheap nano-farm for crops with a ton of bone-meal or using Villagers for "slave labor". A wash farm really isn't *that* much easier than normal farms. You still have to plant, why not harvest at the same time? What kind of positive "100 year" solutions can we target rather than "why not just keep everything the same as Version X forever?"

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on removal of the 'ite' blocks

    I agree it isn't a compelling argument against slabs and stairs.

    I think a compelling argument in favor is "I need more variety in stairs and slabs that are not flammable!" I'd "like" *-ite blocks to have non-spawnable stairs and slabs, but I could get by well enough if *-ite blocks looked good against concrete colors *AND* concrete supplied stairs and slabs as non-spawnable roofing options.

    Red sandstone, sandstone, cobble, stone brick, stone slabs (but not matching stairs), nether brick, brick, quartz, and pur-pur. I think that completes the non-flammable roofing options. On one of my early servers, I built a barn with a wooden roof and had it look nice. Unfortunately, there was a bug in that version that didn't put out fires in the rain, and my barn burnt down repeatedly from lightning strikes. Since that time, I swore off any roof out of flammable material. "Limitations inspire creativity" doesn't wash against lightning repeatedly burning down my stuff. I really think stairs and slabs would go a long way to soothing the *-ite hate.

    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 2

    posted a message on removal of the 'ite' blocks

    The idea of having 16 variants might work, but my hope is for consistent behavior across types. Stone is a "type". All "stone" should behave such that they all have stairs and slabs, they all have "cobble", and so on. But at this point, I think we'll be lucky if we got anywhere near slabs and stairs just for the *-ite variants. There is a whole fuss on this topic on redit. I can't find the link, but Grum appears against adding anything to do with the *-ite blocks. "Limitations inspire creativity!" Yeah. Ok, but without color and stylistically matching *-ite blocks with everything else, they are an eyesore as the OP suggested, and without the stairs and slab shapes, functionally limiting. This makes those too "ugly" in the default texture for most people to want to use them, and too functionally limiting to use. Perhaps Mojang needs to be more creative with their limitations.

    Posted in: Suggestions
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