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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    I don't know the connection between the new commands "or" fluid dynamics,other than "new version of Minecraft." I mentioned carpet mod in the context of testing how much processing "stable" water (no new water blocks will be appearing) vs. dynamic water (a new source water block was just placed, where will it flow to?) What is the relative cost of each case on average, and how does the cost compare to an example of ten cows wandering in a pen?


    There will likely be a difference, but I don't expect it to be much compared to a pen of cows or wandering mobs. I suspect the new fluid dynamics will add more, but not much more overhead since "fluid dynamics" are already present and must make choices for what blocks are barriers vs. blocks popped off as entities and passing through air. The bulk of the cost equation can be defined now with the carpet mod and a good set of test scenarios. I'm working 60 hrs this week. Next week doesn't look so good. The person setting up a good test and reporting won't be me.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    I believe water coming through blocks is a "yes/ no" decision, one not requiring more power than the other. A tiny bit more processing power is dedicated to flowing *further*, and which way to do so. But it won't be any more processing power than dumping a bucket of water on some random spot on the uneven ground.

    People interested in water behavior and how much power it takes could use the Carpet Mod (showcased by gnembon in this video).



    I would suggest setting up different scenarios using running water and then the carpet mod to determine how much processing power is actually used between the *start* of dumping a bucket of water vs. water that has already completed running down a slope and runs no further. See if you can figure out if there is a difference in processing time used in "running" and "completed". As a *guess*, I wouldn't think having a "fence" in the way would matter vs. nothing being in the way, but if you set up a good test environment we can determine if my guess is accurate or not when we have a snapshot with this feature, presuming a Carpet Mod version would be quickly enough made for the snapshot.

    I also want to voice appreciation to @Vampire_Asunder. I also don't get the interest in expressing, on one hand, "I don't like anything since Minecraft 1.four_or_five_years_ago" and tying it with, "so I hate this new feature and I wish Mojang would focus on what players really want."

    People are *STILL* doing NEW game development for the Commodore 64 computer. See here: https://retro.moe/2015/02/01/coding-for-the-commodore-64-what-happened-in-the-last-25-years/

    And that is OK-FINE. I really respect Grian, and he's playing on a server with a minecraft version from before they had hunger bars. And that's cool. If you like that play, you *SHOULD* be doing that. Heck, want to be really cool? Do a series of videos promoting the differences between the *current* version and Minecraft 1.four_or_five_years_ago, and showcase the fun to be had on that version, and *specifics* on how Mojang could bring the fun *BACK* by returning those features to the current game. That would be useful and constructive for the community. "Every new version since 1.four_or_five_years_ago sucks so I hate this new feature and you should too..." Not so constructive. The game has moved on, WHILE ALLOWING PEOPLE WHO WISH TO ENJOY OLD VERSIONS. That's way cool. Very few games allow anything like that. If you want to stay back, do so, and enjoy. But Minecraft as a game has moved on. The bulk of the community has moved with it. I have attempted to build things underwater, and I've also enjoyed underwater builds from maps by some really good content creators. Underwater "coral" and "seaweed", sea wrecks, and so on. The "underwater air pockets" are horribly annoying. The Vanilla ocean floor is lifeless and dull. In my opinion, this change is necessary and a long time coming. I'm excited about it, but I'm open to constructive ideas on how this can work without harming current common underwater structures (such as with farms) or ways we play.

    But "Nah, I only play 1.whatever, the best Minecraft version ever, and this water physics thing suxxors" won't really win me over.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Spider climbing

    I support this, but you are not only talking about coding the model, you have the hitbox rotation, Flipping a model upside down should be pretty trivial, you don't do anything to the hitbox. Rotating the spider hitbox 90 could be a huge mess. If you rotate the hitbox, does it spin on the center? Would that cause the spider to "fall" attempting to climb, since its feet would no longer be against the wall? If you do the rotation "feet against the wall", does that mean a spider could pop into a barrier that then allows it to climb past certain partial blocks intended to act as a barrier? What are some other unintended consequences of rotating a hitbox?

    Take a more or less square book, pretend it is a "spider", see if you can come up with some simple rules for how to rotate the book around obstacles without introducing some messy hitbox collision bugs. I can't imagine anyone at Mojang would want to touch it. As it is, a spider "works" because it is a 2x1x2 entity that sees a ladder on every verticle surface, and so that is exactly how it behaves.

    Posted in: Suggestions
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    posted a message on Bounding Box Outline Reloaded Mod for Minecraft 1.12.2 & older

    I won't be able to chat tonight. I'm on the west coast, and I can try to chat tomorrow night. I'd like that. :)

    EDIT: I spent tonight playing Minecraft with my nephew who is visiting with my other sister, not his mom, three timezones away. I expect to be playing Minecraft with him tomorrow night (28 DEC 2017) as well. The visits are rare for him, so this is pretty much the only chance my nephew and I may get for some time. I'm also not clear when you may be available to chat, and I'm on the West coast working late daily until 31 DEC. I'll try to sort it out. I'm not sure what I can do other than hope you can sort out a way to do a Spigot plugin for your Forge mod the same way Village Maker has a Spigot plugin for their LiteLoader mod. I don't do Java development, my 44+ hrs' per week (with gusts up to 66+) makes it difficult for me to even consider Java development. But if you can use Village Marker's template to make that Spigot plugin, it would be a godsend I think for MP servers that would like to use your tool in that environment, presuming /ops are ok with it.

    Posted in: Minecraft Mods
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    posted a message on VoxelMap [1.12.2/1.11.2/1.10/1.9.4/1.8.9/1.7.10/1.6.4] - a minimap and worldmap

    Aye. I *have* a shortcut Desktop/.minecraft, but it sure as heck doesn't show up that way in the navigation bar. :)

    Posted in: Minecraft Mods
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    posted a message on VoxelMap [1.12.2/1.11.2/1.10/1.9.4/1.8.9/1.7.10/1.6.4] - a minimap and worldmap

    I'm currently going with Minecraft Bedrock on Realms for various reasons, but this mod has been very good for me. The two mentioned plugins/ mods, JourneyMapServer and worldinfo would have seriously helped had I been aware of them. Could these please be mentioned and linked on the VoxelMap front page? Had I known about them, I would very much have had them on my Java server at the time.

    Posted in: Minecraft Mods
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    True, this is only for Bedrock 1.2.5, but even anvils have a different hit-box. I would not be informed of the technical details, but I would hazard a guess that that "any water block encountering a non-full hit-box, leak around it according to the following rules..." I hope there will be exceptions to allow for some sort of "air lock" for entering and leaving an underwater base. But it isn't *JUST* hoppers that got a new hit-box for Bedrock 1.2.5. Anvils were also updated. It is possible the hitbox update is totally unrelated to the Aquatic Update, but having item hitboxes more closely adhere to the visual shape of a given block would make sense for a "water physics" update. Having water encounter a hopper from above, the hitbox on that face is 100%, and water will not flow down from above. But from any side, water could flow around the hit-box. A door that is closed will present a full hit-box across the face of the block if it hits from the flush side. If water comes from the back side or in the "open" position, water will flow up to the point it hits a full face. That is my guess to the approach, and I believe they will have an "exception list" for blocks such as an "airlock" which might be open to allow passage, but water is not meant to flow. Pure conjecture on my part, but it would be reasonable any "exception list" would be kept very, very small.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Who here still actively plays the game?

    Considering the one positive "yes" and five negative "no, not as much, never, nada, nope" vote options, it would appear this poll was intended to show more of a negative slant.

    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    The differences are in emphasis and preference. I don't think it is likely Mojang will code for two kinds of each wooden fence, two kinds of each stair, two kinds of iron bars, and so on. Even if they use reskinning to emphasize how "different" they are, I feel it would be too much coding and confusion for too little gain. Hoppers now have a hit-box matching their visual outline in Bedrock 1.2.5, and this is likely to go to Java Edition also. I suspect this means water will flow around the bottom of hoppers as well. Would Mojang need to code for two kinds of hoppers? Two kinds of chests? Two kinds of enchanting tables? An extra set of skins for all these? Two kinds of pressure plates for 6 variety of wooden, stone, iron, gold? It isn't just fence. All non-full blocks that don't pop off in water will have to deal with this. Every last one. Beds? Farmland? Grass path? Cake? So many non-full block items!

    As far as the reaction to builds underwater, I'm overstating the case. It was just disappointing to see the work of people who made these underwater wrecks to explore, seaweed forests, and so on made to appear with all the "bubbles" around them, and how much better they would look without it. I'm glad this will be corrected.


    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope is also a good reference. They even sell a poster full of logical fallacies!

    The Devs decided the Ocean was too barren. I agree with that assessment. They decided to fill it with life and with things to explore. I applaud that decision. The Devs may have looked at what others have built of underwater bases, ruins, and so on. They may have attempted doing so on their own. Either way, if they decided it sucked badly, I would agree with this also. I've played and explored maps with underwater ruins, wrecked ships, and so on. It was a beauty to see stuff *there*, but what was there was pretty much an eyesore because "bubbles!"

    I don't agree that we should have two sets of everything, a "bubble" and a "no bubble" fence, "bubble/ no bubble" stairs, and so on. We should have "water physics", it should be consistent and simple within its own pattern of behavior. I believe that is the path they are going to take while creating new tools to deal with the new physics such as working airlocks, perhaps different behavior with sponges, and so on. We'll find out more as they get to Snapshot time for 1.14.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on VoxelMap [1.12.2/1.11.2/1.10/1.9.4/1.8.9/1.7.10/1.6.4] - a minimap and worldmap

    For the effort it took to move the map on effects, maybe it can be toggled to not move? That would seem easier than touching status effect icons.

    Posted in: Minecraft Mods
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    Yeah, the discussion wandered away from "underwater building" towards "Farm Hate." I think "Farm Hate" merits its own thread. As far as water mechanics, this is going to happen in an upcoming version. It's on the slate.

    The Mojang development team also know who the major YouTube people are enough to fly many of them out to Sweden, meet with them at E3, talk with them at prior MineCons or otherwise interact with them. This would include Farm Builders such as Tango Tek and Mumbo Jumbo as well as builders such as Grian or promoters of mods and games such as LogDotZip. Your love or hate for those YouTubers who earn money from promoting Minecraft is not particularly relevant. What is relevant is that Mojang is likely to give consideration as to how these people currently build and what Mojang thinks they need, as well as for the teams creating things on Marketplace. If Mojang has a "what you do if" or "what would you need for building cool stuff underwater", the company has people making money off Minecraft and promoting this game to ask under Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDA's). The YouTube producers are not the end-all and be-all of the Minecraft community, but I think it's a good start for getting a fresh point-of-view on what nuts and bolts need to be created to have an Underwater release work well *AND* be promoted by the people who, as I said, earn a living off of doing their thing.

    "Nobody builds underwater" is flatly false. Enough people are making underwater builds and enjoying watching OTHERS create builds underwater that there is money riding on this. It's a thing. Recognize it rather than denying it exists or isn't relevant.

    "There shouldn't be farms" merits its own discussion elsewhere. But I can assure you the people who build farms as part of their real-life livelihood on YouTube will voice an opinion on what they will require to keep people subscribing and keep that ad revenue coming in. You may not agree with them (they don't often agree with one another). You may not watch them or like the YouTubers. But if you are not going to recognize a done deal and seek to positively participate in how water mechanics will be realized within a year or so, you should at least learn to live with disappointment as well as learn to lower your expectations.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    Cactoni, lavato... I'm the one who gets to decide what normal, as intended working game physics suits my purpose as long as I don't violate server rules. Fortunately for me, I make the rules on my server. When my wife let's me.


    If signs no longer hold up lava, I will use what works as intended game physics.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth
    Quote from BoomBap»


    I don't think so... I use pipes in my modded world and well... It really takes the vanilla feel away. It makes it too simple. I like it that in vanilla you need to use hoppers, water etc. In vanilla you can do everything, but it's not so simple, that's what I like about vanilla. Ofc with this style, performance becomes an issue with large scale builds. But i think pipes and other tech stuff is better left for the tech-mod community, who use them in massive/complex builds. It would make items sorters and basic farms way too simple for regular players. Maybe a simple straight line pipe system to reduce the performance issue of hoppers cheking for items every tick would be good, but sorting pipes, round-robin pipes etc is something I would rather not see in vanilla.


    I understand your opinion, and to some extent, I agree with you. I do make Redstone filters on things as a matter-of-course, though they are bulky and not as "nice" as glass "pipes" with http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/CraftBook/Pipes. I'm not suggesting "pipes" be quite that technical. What I mainly hope for is that if water elevators for entities like villagers or ice-water pipes for items no longer work, I'd like for us to have some suitable replacement that still fits "Minecraft", but allows us to continue to create things like water elevators and ice-water pipes without the current problems and unintended consequences associated with those means of transport using water.
    Quote from Djarogames»

    Mob farms are structures abusing the game's design flaws for free items. Why should they be possible

    So YOU are telling ME what I do or do not care about? I care about underwater builds.



    So... when *I* enjoy building creative means to avoid tedious but necessary activities in Minecraft, it's ok for you to tell ME what I shouldn't care about, but when someone tells YOU that you shouldn't care about things YOU enjoy, you won't allow that.

    Ok. Got it. So long as we are on the same page.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on New water physics announced at Minecon Earth

    "Mumbo Jumbo does giant and ridiculous projects for no reason at all." Actually, the 'why' isn't relevant to this discussion, but he does push the boundaries. And at the boundaries, we find out what makes or breaks Minecraft gameplay. I started watching his Hermitcraft series because I wanted to learn technical solutions to various problems so I can use them in my own builds. And I find his videos entertaining so I *keep* watching, but that's beside the point for this thread. I don't know about the "average" player. I know what I want to do, and what I want are two things: 1) cool stuff to explore and do in that vast, empty, lifeless ocean, which these changes propose to make possible and 2) I want to build my own cool stuff and have these new water effects be a part of that. My wife does a great deal of fishing. I'd love to build an aquarium for her. How do we go about that?

    "Fun? FUN?! FUN?! FUN?!" Yeah, I wouldn't place sea lanterns all over the ocean floor, or maybe I would if I had something to show. Not particularly relevant for this thread, in my opinion. Mumbo has had to deal with specific problems that EVERY player building underwater will encounter regardless of scale. Mumbo is pushing the boundaries of scope and scale, regardless of "fun" to do or "fun" to watch. Edge cases prove issues with technique and serve as use cases. And as far as the "fun" aspect... when Mumbo flies up in his Elytra and looks back on it, he's thrilled and excited to see what he's accomplished. I get that, because I get the same thing out of my builds. If I wasn't getting something out of it, I wouldn't be doing it. And for the purpose of this thread, I'd *really* like to get more out of underwater building than what current tech allows for, especially in the way of flora and fauna that exist underwater as well as dealing with "water bubbles" in non-solid blocks.

    Mumbo: "I'm probably going to cry because underwater builds are horrible."

    "What does LATE mean?"

    I can't remember what episode, I quickly scanned through Episode 0 for it, but Mumbo mentioned how EVERYONE seemed to have an underwater base in one or another earlier season. He decided it was time for him to finally do one. I downloaded Hermitcraft 4, and I did see some spectacular underwater builds there. By "late" I simply meant that this is his first underwater base, where other Hermits have already done one by this time and have moved on.

    "Farms are terrible." That would be a matter of opinion depending upon one's circumstances and interests in building. My wife hated the idea of building farms. She didn't want me to take away the "fun" of actually going out to mine the ore, harvesting the crops, getting the XP... it didn't take her long before, "how soon can we build an iron farm? How long before that Skele farm is up? Is the pumpkin/ melon farm ready yet?" It didn't take her long to decide some of the tasks were better automated or made more simple to allow both of us to do other things, and so it is.

    Along with the OP, I am concerned about water "pipes" and moving both items and entities both up and over using water streams. As long as we have those covered, I think we'll be ok. Bedrock currently has horrible dropper elevators. I seriously hope they cook up a better fix for item elevators like Java currently has. Official Vanilla "pipes" would go a long way and solve much of the angst over water mechanics.

    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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