3. Its Adam and Eve there is no third person and don't mention that I am on my third warning for blowing up about someone mentioning stuff like that.
"Steve" is a metaphorical term for, instead of Adam and Eve, God created "Adam and Steve", a Gay couple. It is used in arguments against Homosexuals, saying that a Man-Man/Women-Women relationship wasn't intended by God.
Quote from XxEyesightxX »
2. Because God said not to and also this is BAD knowledge that fruit contained all the horrors and evils of the world we are now all faced to.
There is no such thing as "Bad" knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. What God wanted them to do was stay in the dark, to not learn about the world around them. If you do not have an understanding of what is going on in the world, whether good or bad, it is still ignorance. If we want to progress as a race, we must have an understanding of what bad is going on in the world, and that we must fix it.
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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
There is no such thing as "Bad" knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. What God wanted them to do was stay in the dark, to not learn about the world around them. If you do not have an understanding of what is going on in the world, whether good or bad, it is still ignorance. If we want to progress as a race, we must have an understanding of what bad is going on in the world, and that we must fix it.
You're misunderstanding it. By disobeying God, they realized what sin was and so caused evil to enter the world (or, if you prefer, the snake pressured them to get evil into the world, but it was still their choice, and in the end they did disobey God). We would never have had to progress as a race to fix anything because in the story Adam and Eve were in perfect harmony with themselves, each other, and nature. The darn snake messed that all up.
(Please note this is going by Catholic theology. I'm not saying that Adam and Eve happened, nor am I saying that this is all fact, so calling it a fairy tale or asking for proof is pointless.)
If there is a power in our universe, it's hard to pin down exactly what it's plans our for our species. There are tons of different religions out there, and no one religion has never provided all the answers. Not to mention a lot of religions lately have become filled with zealots who practice the opposite of what they preach (i.e. hypocracy).
I think people can believe whatever they want, if it's not hurting anyone. Unfortunately, my point of view is hardly shared, and I find myself surrounded by those who would force a very specific conversion on their fellow people (specific branches of Christianity, Islam, etc.) and I don't think that's right.
So do or say what you may. If you're really devoted to your religion, prove me wrong not by cutting me down with your own biased arguments, but with the positive attributes your religion is based upon.
You're misunderstanding it. By disobeying God, they realized what sin was and so caused evil to enter the world (or, if you prefer, the snake pressured them to get evil into the world, but it was still their choice, and in the end they did disobey God). We would never have had to progress as a race to fix anything because in the story Adam and Eve were in perfect harmony with themselves, each other, and nature. The darn snake messed that all up.
Still seems like the bible is trying to say ignorance is bliss and that free will and self awareness are sin.
You're misunderstanding it. By disobeying God, they realized what sin was and so caused evil to enter the world (or, if you prefer, the snake pressured them to get evil into the world, but it was still their choice, and in the end they did disobey God). We would never have had to progress as a race to fix anything because in the story Adam and Eve were in perfect harmony with themselves, each other, and nature. The darn snake messed that all up.
Still seems like the bible is trying to say ignorance is bliss and that free will and self awareness are sin.
Adam and Eve did have free will, but they chose to do what God told them to. They were perfectly happy obeying God. They certainly had ignorance of evil, but how is that a bad thing, really? How on earth can it possibly benefit them to know what evil is, and by extension be tempted to do it?
But the question is, did they have free will? If they had tried to go off on their own, do what they wanted to do, God might not have taken kindly to that. God created them, would he do as a puppet master created his puppets. Create them, and them control them to his will?
Excuse the nature of some of these questions, I am attempting to iron out some misunderstandings I have.
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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
Another big question, is why does God let people that Sin, and do not believe in him, to exist? He has the power to smite us down, and send us on the fast track to Hell, but why doesn't he?
I am also interested in peoples opinions on Pascals Wager.
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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
Now, I would like to raise a question.... and a statement. However much I don't believe in anything religious in nature, I would really like for there to be... something. Point being: it's cold, vast, dark, and rather boring out there.
And that brings me to my question, and this is seriously not a troll question:
Does anyone here believe in life outside of our planet. By this, I don't mean UFO's and Anal Probes. I mean green planets (or purple, or who knows?) with non-sentient life? Maybe a planet such as the one the dinosaurs experienced, where true intelligence wasn't even a glimmer in something's genes, but there were millions (billions) of other animals? Maybe there are intelligent aliens out there. Will I ever meet them? Probably not. More than anything else, I wish I would get the chance to pull an Enterprise. You know, explore the galaxy. There's so much to see, and I have only a speck of time to see it.
Another big question, is why does God let people that Sin, and do not believe in him, to exist? He has the power to smite us down, and send us on the fast track to Hell, but why doesn't he?
I am also interested in peoples opinions on Pascals Wager.
Because it isn't very helpful giving your students a test where all the answers are wrong or right, but not both.
Imagine this universe/dimension/world/whatever-you-want-to-call-it as a test to a greater world, and then you're on the right track. I might be destined to right down this message right here, but yet I still have free will. It isn't impossible, when you get your mind off linear thinking.
Also, God could create a rock that he couldn't lift, and then lift it anyways. THERE IS NOTHING HE CANNOT DO.
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"Tell me this, when in the world did virtual posts gain the ability to crap?" -Monork2 on ROBLOX.com
After 10:30 PST, my IQ drops to around that of a shovel, please disregard anything I say after aforementioned time, it will likely not make any sense, and is best ignored.
Then it's not a rock He cannot lift, therefore He could not create a rock He could not lift.
THERE IS NOTHING HE CANNOT DO.
So could He come up with a task that He could not do? If could then there's a task He cannot do. If he can't, then that itself is a task He cannot do. If you want to claim omnipotence you're going to have to resolve the paradox it creates. It's logically self-refuting.
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Another big question, is why does God let people that Sin, and do not believe in him, to exist? He has the power to smite us down, and send us on the fast track to Hell, but why doesn't he?
I am also interested in peoples opinions on Pascals Wager.
The thing is, the main thing we (or at least I) try to put forth is forgivness.
God is always willing to give a second chance, always willing to wipe the slate clean and start over. Even till the very end, if you have to go through Hell and back again, he's always willing to give a second chance.
Where do you think the phrase "Forgive and Forget" came from?
Normally, I use the live and let live rule, but since you seem to demand it, I'll tell you what I think.
I DO think there is a form of a higher power. What I don't think is that I have any clue as to who or what this power is, why it made the universe, or what it wants me to do, or if it even acknowledges my existence. I don't believe in any one religion, because you can't prove any of them, the only thing I have proven to myself is that the universe requires an organizing intelligence to exist the way it does. I was raised Methodist, so their core values are usually the ones I live by.
Another big question, is why does God let people that Sin, and do not believe in him, to exist? He has the power to smite us down, and send us on the fast track to Hell, but why doesn't he?
I am also interested in peoples opinions on Pascals Wager.
The thing is, the main thing we (or at least I) try to put forth is forgivness.
God is always willing to give a second chance, always willing to wipe the slate clean and start over. Even till the very end, if you have to go through Hell and back again, he's always willing to give a second chance.
Where do you think the phrase "Forgive and Forget" came from?
That's true, hence Baptism and Confession. Two of many ways of saying you're sorry. and are willing to try to be a good person again.
I voted "atheist", but I see it as faulty language to say "I am an atheist". That's simply not the case. I'm not an atheist. I'm also not a theist. That doesn't make me an agnostic, though. I voted "atheist", not because it's what I am or what I believe, but because it's a way of saying "without theism".
It's a common error to define one's self with negative qualities, and that's a beef I have with a lot of self proclaimed "atheists". These people go around saying that this god or that god doesn't exist. That's fine, I guess, if that's their thing, but I don't have that sort of belief system. In fact, I don't have any beliefs at all about the existence of a god or gods (nor the belief that no belief is possible). All I've done is reject the premises of the arguments traditionally used to prove the proposition. Therefore, I am not a theist.
Why I clarify this is because of the common internet atheist, who themselves makes a lot of positive theological or metaphysical claims. I'm not the kind of atheist, and honestly, I sometimes wish there were a bit less of them around.
Hmm, we seem to be at an impasse here. Maybe we are using a different definition for 'sin'? In Orthodox parlance (and what we believe to be the approximate original meaning) sin means 'to miss the mark', to fail to be what one is meant to be. Taken this way, apostasy is an obvious sin; man is made to have God dwelling in him. To apostatize is to reject this union, just as fornication is to reject the union of your wife in the exclusive sense that monogamy indicates. The cultural intermingling is, I think, simply a sign like smelling of an odd perfume.
Ah, I see. I have always understood sin to refer to deliberate acts of evil (as it happens I don't actually believe in evil as such, but for the sake of the discussion). So for me a person who didn't understand that they were causing harm cannot said to have sinned. I can see how apostasy can be sinful to you now, even if I find the idea of someone being punished for failing to feel a certain way odd.
With regard to the cultural intermingling thing, I was referring to it more from a anthropological point of view than a theological one. There has always (as I understand it) been a strong emphasis within hebrew culture of strict orthadoxy and the absolute preservation of cultural information (including, but not limited to, holy texts). Also marrying within the culture etc. From this point of view it seems obvious that a person embracing a foreign culture, particularly in the realm of religion, could be seen to have "sinned" (afterall, judaism is the religion of the true god etc.).
Its a possible origin for Apostasy as an idea, but as above I'm far from expert in this field. I might be talking bollox.
The word 'feeling' is a difficult word, since it both includes emotions, intuitions and all kinds of sensations and 'super'-sensations. I.e. 'I feel hot.' 'I feel that this is the right thing to do.' 'I feel angry.' 'I feel that God is speaking to me.' But again I'd emphasize that it's not about the feeling - there are those who never 'felt' God in a tangible way and yet remained faithful because they believed the promise (a matter of hope) or the people who taught them. Perhaps it is a matter of 'simplicity of heart' that allows such a thing.
3. Its Adam and Eve there is no third person and don't mention that I am on my third warning for blowing up about someone mentioning stuff like that.
"Steve" is a metaphorical term for, instead of Adam and Eve, God created "Adam and Steve", a Gay couple. It is used in arguments against Homosexuals, saying that a Man-Man/Women-Women relationship wasn't intended by God.
Quote from XxEyesightxX »
2. Because God said not to and also this is BAD knowledge that fruit contained all the horrors and evils of the world we are now all faced to.
There is no such thing as "Bad" knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. What God wanted them to do was stay in the dark, to not learn about the world around them. If you do not have an understanding of what is going on in the world, whether good or bad, it is still ignorance. If we want to progress as a race, we must have an understanding of what bad is going on in the world, and that we must fix it.
So you think that it is good that we now know how to kill, steal, destroy, betray, racism, genocide, and all the other mistakes that we have made countless times and STILL do not learn from it? This is exactly what came from the tree which is why I say "Too much knowledge is bad" it leads to this and other things.
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Gerrard Winstanley
"All men have stood for freedom... For freedom is the man that will turn the world upside down."
Obviously if Humans did not know how to do those things, the world would have been a better place.
But that is a hurdle that we as a species must leap, not rely on a God that we have no proof but our own to save us. If we go with your beliefs, Adam and Eve did what they did, there is no changing that. It's over, we have Evil in the world, but we must not rely on God to save us, but we have to take control and save ourselves.
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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
Example:
I never thought of that but I doubt Cliff or Peri are Christians so no use in doing that.
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"Steve" is a metaphorical term for, instead of Adam and Eve, God created "Adam and Steve", a Gay couple. It is used in arguments against Homosexuals, saying that a Man-Man/Women-Women relationship wasn't intended by God.
There is no such thing as "Bad" knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. What God wanted them to do was stay in the dark, to not learn about the world around them. If you do not have an understanding of what is going on in the world, whether good or bad, it is still ignorance. If we want to progress as a race, we must have an understanding of what bad is going on in the world, and that we must fix it.
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
You're misunderstanding it. By disobeying God, they realized what sin was and so caused evil to enter the world (or, if you prefer, the snake pressured them to get evil into the world, but it was still their choice, and in the end they did disobey God). We would never have had to progress as a race to fix anything because in the story Adam and Eve were in perfect harmony with themselves, each other, and nature. The darn snake messed that all up.
(Please note this is going by Catholic theology. I'm not saying that Adam and Eve happened, nor am I saying that this is all fact, so calling it a fairy tale or asking for proof is pointless.)
You heard that, green and red.
If there is a power in our universe, it's hard to pin down exactly what it's plans our for our species. There are tons of different religions out there, and no one religion has never provided all the answers. Not to mention a lot of religions lately have become filled with zealots who practice the opposite of what they preach (i.e. hypocracy).
I think people can believe whatever they want, if it's not hurting anyone. Unfortunately, my point of view is hardly shared, and I find myself surrounded by those who would force a very specific conversion on their fellow people (specific branches of Christianity, Islam, etc.) and I don't think that's right.
So do or say what you may. If you're really devoted to your religion, prove me wrong not by cutting me down with your own biased arguments, but with the positive attributes your religion is based upon.
Still seems like the bible is trying to say ignorance is bliss and that free will and self awareness are sin.
Adam and Eve did have free will, but they chose to do what God told them to. They were perfectly happy obeying God. They certainly had ignorance of evil, but how is that a bad thing, really? How on earth can it possibly benefit them to know what evil is, and by extension be tempted to do it?
You heard that, green and red.
Excuse the nature of some of these questions, I am attempting to iron out some misunderstandings I have.
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
I am also interested in peoples opinions on Pascals Wager.
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait
A good idea, but I'll stick with my atheism.
Now, I would like to raise a question.... and a statement. However much I don't believe in anything religious in nature, I would really like for there to be... something. Point being: it's cold, vast, dark, and rather boring out there.
And that brings me to my question, and this is seriously not a troll question:
Does anyone here believe in life outside of our planet. By this, I don't mean UFO's and Anal Probes. I mean green planets (or purple, or who knows?) with non-sentient life? Maybe a planet such as the one the dinosaurs experienced, where true intelligence wasn't even a glimmer in something's genes, but there were millions (billions) of other animals? Maybe there are intelligent aliens out there. Will I ever meet them? Probably not. More than anything else, I wish I would get the chance to pull an Enterprise. You know, explore the galaxy. There's so much to see, and I have only a speck of time to see it.
Sadface. lol
Because it isn't very helpful giving your students a test where all the answers are wrong or right, but not both.
Imagine this universe/dimension/world/whatever-you-want-to-call-it as a test to a greater world, and then you're on the right track. I might be destined to right down this message right here, but yet I still have free will. It isn't impossible, when you get your mind off linear thinking.
Also, God could create a rock that he couldn't lift, and then lift it anyways. THERE IS NOTHING HE CANNOT DO.
Raise my dragons please!!
Then it's not a rock He cannot lift, therefore He could not create a rock He could not lift.
So could He come up with a task that He could not do? If could then there's a task He cannot do. If he can't, then that itself is a task He cannot do. If you want to claim omnipotence you're going to have to resolve the paradox it creates. It's logically self-refuting.
The thing is, the main thing we (or at least I) try to put forth is forgivness.
God is always willing to give a second chance, always willing to wipe the slate clean and start over. Even till the very end, if you have to go through Hell and back again, he's always willing to give a second chance.
Where do you think the phrase "Forgive and Forget" came from?
All Hail the Tail! viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28798
[simg]http://i.min.us/ilBwks.PNG[/simg]
I DO think there is a form of a higher power. What I don't think is that I have any clue as to who or what this power is, why it made the universe, or what it wants me to do, or if it even acknowledges my existence. I don't believe in any one religion, because you can't prove any of them, the only thing I have proven to myself is that the universe requires an organizing intelligence to exist the way it does. I was raised Methodist, so their core values are usually the ones I live by.
That's true, hence Baptism and Confession. Two of many ways of saying you're sorry. and are willing to try to be a good person again.
It's a common error to define one's self with negative qualities, and that's a beef I have with a lot of self proclaimed "atheists". These people go around saying that this god or that god doesn't exist. That's fine, I guess, if that's their thing, but I don't have that sort of belief system. In fact, I don't have any beliefs at all about the existence of a god or gods (nor the belief that no belief is possible). All I've done is reject the premises of the arguments traditionally used to prove the proposition. Therefore, I am not a theist.
Why I clarify this is because of the common internet atheist, who themselves makes a lot of positive theological or metaphysical claims. I'm not the kind of atheist, and honestly, I sometimes wish there were a bit less of them around.
The word 'feeling' is a difficult word, since it both includes emotions, intuitions and all kinds of sensations and 'super'-sensations. I.e. 'I feel hot.' 'I feel that this is the right thing to do.' 'I feel angry.' 'I feel that God is speaking to me.' But again I'd emphasize that it's not about the feeling - there are those who never 'felt' God in a tangible way and yet remained faithful because they believed the promise (a matter of hope) or the people who taught them. Perhaps it is a matter of 'simplicity of heart' that allows such a thing.
So you think that it is good that we now know how to kill, steal, destroy, betray, racism, genocide, and all the other mistakes that we have made countless times and STILL do not learn from it? This is exactly what came from the tree which is why I say "Too much knowledge is bad" it leads to this and other things.
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But that is a hurdle that we as a species must leap, not rely on a God that we have no proof but our own to save us. If we go with your beliefs, Adam and Eve did what they did, there is no changing that. It's over, we have Evil in the world, but we must not rely on God to save us, but we have to take control and save ourselves.
The Universe is cool enough without making up crap about it - Phil Plait