You do realize a text advenrutre "game" back then is not the same as a "game" now, correct?
The amount of 10 year olds that can actually spell properly is virtually nonexistent.
lol *adventure
What is your definition of a game? You said earlier: "Anything that runs, doesn't even have to play well, just needs to run and be a game." Is a text adventure not that? Or is it an exception to your argument?
If you were to do a little more research on this subject, he even says himself multiple times that his dad bought the computer with a bunch of books elaborating on how to make games and programs, a couple of which aimed towards kids, and that he didn't experiment entirely on his own like you seem to be implying.
Oh and I copied and pasted that from the wikipedia page so its their words not mine.
Not many text adventure games back then had actual dialogue due to the incredibly low memory of the systems, most of them actually printed out "page 8 paragraph 1" or something along those lines for you to look up in a phrase book.
If you seriously want to try and tell me he made a full-fledged text adventure game before the hardware was all that capable then you are basically trying to sell me a dog turd and say it's gold.
What do you mean "before the hardware was all that capable"? He grew up in the 1980's, he's not ancient. Have you never heard of Zork?
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.Albert Camus
What is your definition of a game? You said earlier: "Anything that runs, doesn't even have to play well, just needs to run and be a game." Is a text adventure not that? Or is it an exception to your argument?
A text adventure is a game, however, it needs to have text and be an adventure. An input/output system with "0" >1 "1" >1 "2" >0 "<end>" does not a game make.
Oh and I copied and pasted that from the wikipedia page so its their words not mine.
Yeah, no, this is not how this works, buddy.
Wikipedia is not an all knowing source, and notch is not some genius programmer like you might think he is, he is a mediocre programmer at best and anyone who's taken a peek at making a mod for minecraft would know this, sorry to burst your bubble.
I can edit the wikipedia page to say he also invented the cheeseburger, shot full hole-in-ones at the world's hardest golf course, and was born with a unicorn present at the top of a mountain that descended from the heavens.
That does not make it remotely true and very much implies I am exaggerating.
What do you mean "before the hardware was all that capable"? He grew up in the 1980's, he's not ancient. Have you never heard of Zork?
Look at computers in the 1980s. Most of the common computers were simply not able to do it.
Admittedly I was confuding the C64 and C128, being that the C64 was not capable of full text readouts due to the low memory, and the C128 barely sold anything it's a wonder his dad was one of the few who bought one before the company went under.
I would stop being so defensive if I were you, I have many sources to back up my claims.
I think that if this article proves anything is that you should never argue with fm87.
Telling someone with childhood development education how childhood development worked "for us because we are special snowflakes(not)" is like trying to tell Gordon Ramsay how to cook, or Evil Kinevil to do stunts.
You would have better luck trying to convince Jacobdb that network security is as easy as putting up a firewall, or convincing BC/Quizzles that perl and basic are far superior in every single way to every other language out there, no exceptions.
Well, I watched Gordon Ramsay make scrambled eggs.
The thing looked like something my neighbor's dog might eat, I'd skip it.
Eggs are supposed to look like that, when they're dark yellow like typical scrambled eggs are, they're overcooked by quite a bit. Granted, he seems to like his a little fluffier than most people (assuming you're talking about the one where he burns toast).
This is also true for chicken, when it's got a thick outside when cutting with a knife, this means it is overcooked.
A lot of people forget that food keeps cooking even after you take it off the burner and put it on the plate.
Wikipedia is not an all knowing source, and notch is not some genius programmer like you might think he is, he is a mediocre programmer at best and anyone who's taken a peek at making a mod for minecraft would know this, sorry to burst your bubble.
I can edit the wikipedia page to say he also invented the cheeseburger, shot full hole-in-ones at the world's hardest golf course, and was born with a unicorn present at the top of a mountain that descended from the heavens.
That does not make it remotely true and very much implies I am exaggerating.
That's why I said "according to wikipedia" I am aware of the potential for inaccuracy however if you scroll down to "references" you'll see: ^ a b c Handy, Alex (23 March 2010). "Interview: Markus 'Notch' Persson Talks Making Minecraft". Gamasutra. Retrieved 26 June 2010. "my first own program when I was eight years old. It was an extremely basic text adventure game"
I think this discussion has arisen over the different perceptions of what a game actually is. In my opinion a game could be as simple as a "guess the number" program, which in Python, would be possible in a total of 7 lines.
import random
number = str(random.randint(1,10))
guess = raw_input("I am thinking of a number between 1 and 10 \n Take a guess")
if guess == number:
print "Correct"
else:
print "Incorrect"
On the other hand it seems that you see a game as something a lot more complex. Perhaps Skyrim or Crysis are better examples of "simple games?" <---- I am also exaggerating here.
Telling someone with childhood development education how childhood development worked "for us because we are special snowflakes(not)" is like trying to tell Gordon Ramsay how to cook, or Evil Kinevil to do stunts.
Obviously you have some kind of deep obsession with the phrase "special snowflake" but this doesn't really fit a description of me. I haven't actually mentioned much about programming games myself. I started when I was 13 with TADS, (funnily enough) a development kit for making text adventures. And yes, I would call this programming, check their website http://www.tads.org/ if you don't believe me So I've done quite a bit of research on what a text adventure consists of and how to make them. I have no doubt you have far more knowledge in the area of a child's development and I'm not saying that I started programming before I was 10, however, I personally believe that just as with many other skills (I realise that doing something like soccer does not require the same mental capacity), programming should be started early on in one's life and that people should encourage it, like these people are: http://www.code.org/
Oh and in case you're interested (which I doubt), Will.i.am said "It's important for these kids, right now, starting at 8 years old, to read and write code.“
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.Albert Camus
That's why I said "according to wikipedia" I am aware of the potential for inaccuracy however if you scroll down to "references" you'll see: ^ a b c Handy, Alex (23 March 2010). "Interview: Markus 'Notch' Persson Talks Making Minecraft". Gamasutra. Retrieved 26 June 2010. "my first own program when I was eight years old. It was an extremely basic text adventure game"
This certainly isn't biased at all. Nope.
Hey, did you know I helped code Everquest 2 when I was 9? It's true! I said so, see? It's even cited by this post on my wiki page, where I typed out how I had helped code Everquest 2 when I was 9!
See the problem here?
I think this discussion has arisen over the different perceptions of what a game actually is. In my opinion a game could be as simple as a "guess the number" program, which in Python, would be possible in a total of 7 lines.
Emphasis required here. Your opinion of a game does not a game make.
I could say, in my opinion, "hello world" is a game, that does not make it a game.
On the other hand it seems that you see a game as something a lot more complex. Perhaps Skyrim or Crysis are better examples of "simple games?" <---- I am also exaggerating here.
How about pong? Breakout? Hangman? Connect 4? tic-tac-toe? Snake?
These all are simple to make and are defined as "games".
Obviously you have some kind of deep obsession with the phrase "special snowflake" but this doesn't really fit a description of me. I haven't actually mentioned much about programming games myself. I started when I was 13 with TADS, (funnily enough) a development kit for making text adventures. And yes, I would call this programming, check their website http://www.tads.org/ if you don't believe me So I've done quite a bit of research on what a text adventure consists of and how to make them.
Yes, you used a devkit, which is not at all what we are talking about, had you been reading the thread. Devkits are not part of any of this discussion.
Using a devkit is not the same thing as coding a game. The same way that dragging/dropping items in an in-game level editor for something does not mean you have "coded" a game.
I have no doubt you have far more knowledge in the area of a child's development and I'm not saying that I started programming before I was 10, however, I personally believe that just as with many other skills (I realise that doing something like soccer does not require the same mental capacity), programming should be started early on in one's life and that people should encourage it, like these people are: http://www.code.org/
Early yes, but that early, no. Programming in it's whole focuses on areas of the brain that are simply not developed until puberty/adolescence. It's not just "rare" for kids to have these developed before this point, it is quite literally impossible outside of a genetic defect of some kind or maybe a tumor.
Oh and in case you're interested (which I doubt), Will.i.am said "It's important for these kids, right now, starting at 8 years old, to read and write code.“
Because we all know he makes his money from computer science and is the go-to guy on this sort of thing.
Oh.............
And no, I am not ragging on him because of that. One of my favorite musicians has a degree in nuclear physics and was a nuclear physicist for a large chunk of her life (seriously, too).
I am merely suggesting that he is probably not the best person to be talking about this subject.
No. They cannot. They simply do not have the mental capacity to do so.
You can probably screw around with segments of code and get something that you might, at that age, think is a game, but is not.
This is not my opinion, this is science, your brain simply is not developed enough at that age to do something so complex. Even if you had a 1:1 step by step guide in front of you, you'd probably still screw it up.
Going off your post history you were not doing anything of the sort when you were 10.
Getting a "game" to run from something like RPG maker is not making/coding a game and is basically saying "I painted this image, even though i just found it on deviantart and used the 'fill' tool to change a couple colors".
There's so much fertilizer here I could supply the entire midwest's farming industry.
I know enough C for, lets say, a text adventure.
To that extent, I think you are right.
Sincerely,
Crazy 11 y/o.
1) How long have coded? I have coded for about 1-2 years. 2) What languages are you familiar with? I am familiar with the coding language C++, but I do know a bit of Java 4) Are you familiar with the terms CI and Source Control? Yes I am familiar with these terms. c: 4) How old are you? I am 14 years years old.
Hey, did you know I helped code Everquest 2 when I was 9? It's true! I said so, see? It's even cited by this post on my wiki page, where I typed out how I had helped code Everquest 2 when I was 9!
See the problem here?
Ah the old "call their sources bias", I put that on the same level as an Ad hominem argument.
Yes, you used a devkit, which is not at all what we are talking about, had you been reading the thread. Devkits are not part of any of this discussion.
Using a devkit is not the same thing as coding a game. The same way that dragging/dropping items in an in-game level editor for something does not mean you have "coded" a game.
Did. You. Even. Click. The. Link?
TADS is the programmer's power tool for IF authoring. It offers a robust and modern language that'll be instantly familiar to anyone who knows Javascript or C++, and a full-featured suite of development tools from text editing to debugging.
You're ignorance makes me weep... But that was besides the point anyway. I was talking about my own experiences at programming and saying that I wasn't trying to make out I was making games at the age of 10. Would you care to share your programming history?
Because we all know he makes his money from computer science and is the go-to guy on this sort of thing.
Is there anybody whose opinion you respect? Or do you just judge them if they say something to contradict you?
Oh and I labeled TADS incorrectly, I thought it stood for Text Adventure Development Kit but it actually stands for Text Adventure Development System.
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.Albert Camus
Ah the old "call their sources bias", I put that on the same level as an Ad hominem argument.
And by completely denying that you have a completely biased source, I can put this on the same level as "name calling".
Did. You. Even. Click. The. Link?
TADS is the programmer's power tool for IF authoring. It offers a robust and modern language that'll be instantly familiar to anyone who knows Javascript or C++, and a full-featured suite of development tools from text editing to debugging.
You're ignorance makes me weep...
Yes, it is a devkit....... And your point is?
You literally word for word described what a devkit/IDE is.
But that was besides the point anyway. I was talking about my own experiences at programming and saying that I wasn't trying to make out I was making games at the age of 10.
It helps to be specific in constructing your posts so you don't get thrown on a ride later on.
Would you care to share your programming history?
How is this relevant in any way?
Well alright then, if you insist (was a giant paragraph, decided to separate lazily, deal with it) I know I am forgetting a lot of other things I worked on but we would be here all day if I went to those lengths
I dabbled in LUA to make WoW addons back in 2005-2006 or so and had some books on networking with C++ that I only understood a tiny bit of and gave a tutorial on how to make a working chat lobby (it 'worked', sort of, looking at it now the code in the books is baaaaaaad), learned enough python to make some random programs by 2007 and had published several UI addons for WoW that were mildly successful (~7,500 downloads),
between mid 2007 and early 2008 I was exploring the world of PSP and PS2 homebrew and was part of the second (possibly 3rd) team to successfully bypass sony's firmware DRM check for newer games on the PSP (our method was worse than the other groups but it still worked), after this point I got on the bandwagon of tearing ROMS apart to look at the actual game structure for NES, SNES, genesis and N64 games which led to modding and ROM hacks,
from there in around 2009-2010ish I went back to python to try and make a 2D platformer but due to time constraints from my business was unable to get far, this was also around when I attempted to help with the PS3 flashing scene but due to my lack of a PS3 this didn't last long (plus as soon as I dropped from the group, geohot got the encryption key so there was no point in continuing), from that point in mid 2011 I started dabbling into java a bit when minecraft started to gain ground but I didn't stick with it long as it didn't interest me, after that in late 2011 early 2012 I started doing some more screwing around in python but ended up not bothering with it much as this was when I started moderating the forums here,
it wasn't until mid-late 2012 where I started experimenting with random IDEs and different languages to see if one really hooked me when I was bored but that didn't really happen until later 2012 when I finally decided on a mix of C# and C++ to do experimenting in my free time, from then until a few months ago I was mostly just experimenting with things like sending/receiving information, client/server structure, and other things in that area,
which brings us to now where I am stuck between a few projects I am having difficulty deciding on which to pursue, especially since android app development has recently caught my eye, and past experience with C# helped a bit here to where I have the capability to make some apps that I believe might be pretty decent since there is nothing like them out there,
however, I also have a few projects on the backburner such as a racing game in unity (which is proving difficult due to how I personally want to handle it), a 2d platformer in XNA (plays well, but I'm not creative enough to do level design for a platformer), a dungeon crawler in C# without XNA (more of an experiment, it plays well but the issue is how things are implemented, likely to abandon it), a text adventure in python, a text adventure in C#, a text adventure in C++, a text adventure android app in java, a pong clone android app in java, a breakout clone in XNA, a functional racing game with a single level in blender game engine with python scripting (likely to abandon as BGE is awful, but fun to play with), a turn based RPG in python with "graphics" (read:programmer art), a turn based RPG in C++ with no/placeholder graphics, a turn based RPG in XNA with a broken combat system because I can't the whole into math, a spectacle fighter prototype in unity, a spectacle fighter prototype in UDK (UDK seems nice if you can learn it but it is sooooooooooooooo annoying), a basic platformer with a win and lose state with C++ in Ogre (again, like BGE, fun to play with but annoying), a breakout clone addon for WoW that was a fully functional game, and last but not least my current project which is actually not a game, but an android app with windows/linux integration that I am developing for my own purposes and might release if it turns out well.
Not that much of this really matters, software doesn't interest me near as much as hardware does and was never my main goal, more of a hobby thing. Explaining my experiences there would have been a lot more interesting to read and expand upon. All of this was done in spare time, and from 2007 to onward and including now my spare time is/was EXTREMELY limited due to running a successful business, which was cut even shorter in 2010 when I met my current SO.
Is there anybody whose opinion you respect? Or do you just judge them if they say something to contradict you?
Respecting an opinion =/= agreeing with it.
Oh and I labeled TADS incorrectly, I thought it stood for Text Adventure Development Kit but it actually stands for Text Adventure Development System.
Well, I don't like them being all overcooked and dry. The taste is completely different.
Well honestly, this conversation is going to be exceptionally varied due to eggs themselves. They are one big mother trucker in terms of how easy they are to screw up, how differently they can be cooked, how they react with different kinds of oil (if you have peanut oil around, try making an omelet with it instead of butter or veg/olive, it's weird) among other things.
I think the way he has his is a bit watery, eggs are supposed to be fluffy and runny, but not quite to that extreme. I am almost wondering if that is just a UK or french-type style that he picked up in his training.
Either way, eggs are delicious but they suck because of reasons stated. Annoying? Yes. Delicious? Hell yes.
Scrambled eggs that are just a little well done taste fantastic. Just saying. I also recommend using water in an omelet instead of oil or butter, as it gets the omelet less fluffy and easier to cook. That's just my experience though.
Scrambled eggs that are just a little well done taste fantastic. Just saying. I also recommend using water in an omelet instead of oil or butter, as it gets the omelet less fluffy and easier to cook. That's just my experience though.
Water? Interesting..... I'll have to try this with my nonstick pan.
I've also heard of mixing eggs with a little bit of pancake batter to make absurdly fluffy omelets but I am unsure on that one (plus oh god the calories).
And by completely denying that you have a completely biased source, I can put this on the same level as "name calling".
How is this in any way a bad thing? You labeled it as biased without stating any reasons and you think I'm the one on the same level as name calling? You're so far down on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement they need to make a new level. It will be called: fm87 logic - blind contradiction, often used as a final resort.
Yes, it is a devkit....... And your point is?
You literally word for word described what a devkit/IDE is.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at to be honest. TADS is far from a point and click program for making games. If you bother to look at the example at the bottom of this page http://www.tads.org/t3doc/doc/t3QuickStart.htm you'll see what I mean. Personally I find Python a lot easier to understand. And are you adding an IDE to your list of exceptions now? It seems that your classification of making a game properly now is a full on first person shooter in binary code.
How is this relevant in any way?
Well alright then, if you insist (was a giant paragraph, decided to separate lazily, deal with it) I know I am forgetting a lot of other things I worked on but we would be here all day if I went to those lengths
I dabbled in LUA to make WoW addons back in 2005-2006 or so and had some books on networking with C++ that I only understood a tiny bit of and gave a tutorial on how to make a working chat lobby (it 'worked', sort of, looking at it now the code in the books is baaaaaaad), learned enough python to make some random programs by 2007 and had published several UI addons for WoW that were mildly successful (~7,500 downloads),
between mid 2007 and early 2008 I was exploring the world of PSP and PS2 homebrew and was part of the second (possibly 3rd) team to successfully bypass sony's firmware DRM check for newer games on the PSP (our method was worse than the other groups but it still worked), after this point I got on the bandwagon of tearing ROMS apart to look at the actual game structure for NES, SNES, genesis and N64 games which led to modding and ROM hacks,
from there in around 2009-2010ish I went back to python to try and make a 2D platformer but due to time constraints from my business was unable to get far, this was also around when I attempted to help with the PS3 flashing scene but due to my lack of a PS3 this didn't last long (plus as soon as I dropped from the group, geohot got the encryption key so there was no point in continuing), from that point in mid 2011 I started dabbling into java a bit when minecraft started to gain ground but I didn't stick with it long as it didn't interest me, after that in late 2011 early 2012 I started doing some more screwing around in python but ended up not bothering with it much as this was when I started moderating the forums here,
it wasn't until mid-late 2012 where I started experimenting with random IDEs and different languages to see if one really hooked me when I was bored but that didn't really happen until later 2012 when I finally decided on a mix of C# and C++ to do experimenting in my free time, from then until a few months ago I was mostly just experimenting with things like sending/receiving information, client/server structure, and other things in that area,
which brings us to now where I am stuck between a few projects I am having difficulty deciding on which to pursue, especially since android app development has recently caught my eye, and past experience with C# helped a bit here to where I have the capability to make some apps that I believe might be pretty decent since there is nothing like them out there,
however, I also have a few projects on the backburner such as a racing game in unity (which is proving difficult due to how I personally want to handle it), a 2d platformer in XNA (plays well, but I'm not creative enough to do level design for a platformer), a dungeon crawler in C# without XNA (more of an experiment, it plays well but the issue is how things are implemented, likely to abandon it), a text adventure in python, a text adventure in C#, a text adventure in C++, a text adventure android app in java, a pong clone android app in java, a breakout clone in XNA, a functional racing game with a single level in blender game engine with python scripting (likely to abandon as BGE is awful, but fun to play with), a turn based RPG in python with "graphics" (read:programmer art), a turn based RPG in C++ with no/placeholder graphics, a turn based RPG in XNA with a broken combat system because I can't the whole into math, a spectacle fighter prototype in unity, a spectacle fighter prototype in UDK (UDK seems nice if you can learn it but it is sooooooooooooooo annoying), a basic platformer with a win and lose state with C++ in Ogre (again, like BGE, fun to play with but annoying), a breakout clone addon for WoW that was a fully functional game, and last but not least my current project which is actually not a game, but an android app with windows/linux integration that I am developing for my own purposes and might release if it turns out well.
Not that much of this really matters, software doesn't interest me near as much as hardware does and was never my main goal, more of a hobby thing. Explaining my experiences there would have been a lot more interesting to read and expand upon. All of this was done in spare time, and from 2007 to onward and including now my spare time is/was EXTREMELY limited due to running a successful business, which was cut even shorter in 2010 when I met my current SO.
This was relevant because I had the suspicion that your motives were to try and rubbish the idea of starting programming at 10 to feel more secure about your own late start/non-existent start. After reading your life story (which I did read by the way) this doesn't seem to be the case.
Respecting an opinion =/= agreeing with it.
A sarcastic remark about how they shouldn't be listened to because they don't have a "PhD in computer science" is hardly respecting an opinion.
This topic is branching into so many places I can barely remember what the original discussion was about
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.Albert Camus
How is this in any way a bad thing? You labeled it as biased without stating any reasons and you think I'm the one on the same level as name calling? You're so far down on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement they need to make a new level. It will be called: fm87 logic - blind contradiction, often used as a final resort.
I stated quite well why I think it is biased.
It is a quote from notch, on notch's wiki page, referenced by an interview from him. Hence my comment about Everquest.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at to be honest. TADS is far from a point and click program for making games.
I never said it was a point and click program for making games. I said it was a devkit.
If you bother to look at the example at the bottom of this page http://www.tads.org/...3QuickStart.htm you'll see what I mean. Personally I find Python a lot easier to understand. And are you adding an IDE to your list of exceptions now? It seems that your classification of making a game properly now is a full on first person shooter in binary code.
I am not, but this is still a devkit. I am failing to see why you don't understand this.......
This was relevant because I had the suspicion that your motives were to try and rubbish the idea of starting programming at 10 to feel more secure about your own late start/non-existent start. After reading your life story (which I did read by the way) this doesn't seem to be the case.
Hahaha what? I am not that petty.
A sarcastic remark about how they shouldn't be listened to because they don't have a "PhD in computer science" is hardly respecting an opinion.
So I should respect a high school dropout working at mcdonald's opinion on why quantum science is a bad thing because he thinks it is on par with black magic, just as well as I should respect someone who is an expert in quantum dynamics?
Absolutely not.
Respect is earned, not given.
This topic is branching into so many places I can barely remember what the original discussion was about
Eggs, and how to cook them.
OP's eggs are undercooked, and thus not going to taste good at all. Add to the fact he is not seasoning them and did not make the pan hot enough and he is probably going to give someone salmonella. This wouldn't be so bad, however, he is also not seasoning his eggs which is leading us to all ask the question as to how he plans to cook them and make them taste even slightly palatable.
Given he has not replied after we asked where the seasoning was and why the pan was not hot, I am going to guess he is stuck up on these questions and has no answer for them, which probably leads down to the fact that this was another generic "I'll crack the eggs and you guys do everything else" post.
And thus we have learned there are different styles of cooking eggs all around the world.
It is a quote from notch, on notch's wiki page, referenced by an interview from him. Hence my comment about Everquest.
If we can't rely on information from Notch about his own life, what information can we use?
I am not, but this is still a devkit. I am failing to see why you don't understand this.......
A software development kit (SDK or "devkit") is typically a set of software development tools that allows for the creation of applications for a certain software package, software framework, hardware platform, computer system, video game console, operating system, or similar development platform.
I'm saying TADS is a programming language in itself.
A programming language is an artificial language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer.Programming languages can be used to create programs that control the behavior of a machine and/or to express algorithms precisely.
Sounds a lot like TADS to me.
Hahaha what? I am not that petty.
That's just my own theory about people who say "programming a game will be too hard for you" or "it takes years of work to make the simplest of games", but it's probably wrong, I'm not a psychologist
Respect is earned, not given.
So Will.i.am hasn't earned your respect?
Eggs, and how to cook them.
Where did eggs come into it? I'm pretty sure they just slipped in unnoticed somewhere :/
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.Albert Camus
If we can't rely on information from Notch about his own life, what information can we use?
He was probably exaggerating. Everyone does. Chances are he was actually a bit older, 10, 11 or 12. I will near-guarantee you don't remember much or anything from when you were actually 8, but likely remember a lot of things from when you were between 10 and 13.
We can use well-documented information on the brain development of children.
I'm saying TADS is a programming language in itself.
Devkits often have their own programming language.
Given this is a tool to make text adventures, I'd bet it does. UDK has unreal script, gamemaker has game maker language, etc.
That's just my own theory about people who say "programming a game will be too hard for you" or "it takes years of work to make the simplest of games", but it's probably wrong, I'm not a psychologist
Well.... It is hard to make games and it does take years to make even simple games. Simple in these terms not meaning "I made a game where you click a square that appears randomly", simple meaning a game that is not junkware/basically a flash game/timewaster.
Anyone who says it's easy to make games has likely never made one.
So Will.i.am hasn't earned your respect?
Why would some singer I've never heard of earn my respect?
Where did eggs come into it? I'm pretty sure they just slipped in unnoticed somewhere :/
OP was talking about eggs, we asked for a hot pan and seasoning and he didn't reply back.
He was probably exaggerating. Everyone does. Chances are he was actually a bit older, 10, 11 or 12. I will near-guarantee you don't remember much or anything from when you were actually 8, but likely remember a lot of things from when you were between 10 and 13.
We can use well-documented information on the brain development of children.
I remember pushing someone of the top of the playground and not getting in trouble for it but that's probably a bit off topic :/
Devkits often have their own programming language.
Given this is a tool to make text adventures, I'd bet it does. UDK has unreal script, gamemaker has game maker language, etc.
After much wikipedia use I am quite certain TADS isn't a devkit. Text Adventure Development System (TADS) is a prototype-based domain-specific programming language and set of standard libraries for creating interactive fiction (IF) games.
Well.... It is hard to make games and it does take years to make even simple games. Simple in these terms not meaning "I made a game where you click a square that appears randomly", simple meaning a game that is not junkware/basically a flash game/timewaster.
Anyone who says it's easy to make games has likely never made one.
I feel like we're back at the start... what is a simple game? But what I meant was the people who tell those with no experience in programming to throw away their dreams of making a game because only after long years of research and hard work, if their lucky and they have the right type of mind they might, just might, be able to print "hello world" on the screen.
Why would some singer I've never heard of earn my respect?
he has a cool name
OP was talking about eggs, we asked for a hot pan and seasoning and he didn't reply back.
I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.Albert Camus
lol *adventure
What is your definition of a game? You said earlier: "Anything that runs, doesn't even have to play well, just needs to run and be a game." Is a text adventure not that? Or is it an exception to your argument?
Oh and I copied and pasted that from the wikipedia page so its their words not mine.
What do you mean "before the hardware was all that capable"? He grew up in the 1980's, he's not ancient. Have you never heard of Zork?
Yeah, no, this is not how this works, buddy.
Wikipedia is not an all knowing source, and notch is not some genius programmer like you might think he is, he is a mediocre programmer at best and anyone who's taken a peek at making a mod for minecraft would know this, sorry to burst your bubble.
I can edit the wikipedia page to say he also invented the cheeseburger, shot full hole-in-ones at the world's hardest golf course, and was born with a unicorn present at the top of a mountain that descended from the heavens.
That does not make it remotely true and very much implies I am exaggerating.
Look at computers in the 1980s. Most of the common computers were simply not able to do it.
Admittedly I was confuding the C64 and C128, being that the C64 was not capable of full text readouts due to the low memory, and the C128 barely sold anything it's a wonder his dad was one of the few who bought one before the company went under.
I would stop being so defensive if I were you, I have many sources to back up my claims.
You would have better luck trying to convince Jacobdb that network security is as easy as putting up a firewall, or convincing BC/Quizzles that perl and basic are far superior in every single way to every other language out there, no exceptions.
This is also true for chicken, when it's got a thick outside when cutting with a knife, this means it is overcooked.
A lot of people forget that food keeps cooking even after you take it off the burner and put it on the plate.
That's why I said "according to wikipedia" I am aware of the potential for inaccuracy however if you scroll down to "references" you'll see: ^ a b c Handy, Alex (23 March 2010). "Interview: Markus 'Notch' Persson Talks Making Minecraft". Gamasutra. Retrieved 26 June 2010. "my first own program when I was eight years old. It was an extremely basic text adventure game"
I think this discussion has arisen over the different perceptions of what a game actually is. In my opinion a game could be as simple as a "guess the number" program, which in Python, would be possible in a total of 7 lines.
On the other hand it seems that you see a game as something a lot more complex. Perhaps Skyrim or Crysis are better examples of "simple games?" <---- I am also exaggerating here.
Obviously you have some kind of deep obsession with the phrase "special snowflake" but this doesn't really fit a description of me. I haven't actually mentioned much about programming games myself. I started when I was 13 with TADS, (funnily enough) a development kit for making text adventures. And yes, I would call this programming, check their website http://www.tads.org/ if you don't believe me So I've done quite a bit of research on what a text adventure consists of and how to make them. I have no doubt you have far more knowledge in the area of a child's development and I'm not saying that I started programming before I was 10, however, I personally believe that just as with many other skills (I realise that doing something like soccer does not require the same mental capacity), programming should be started early on in one's life and that people should encourage it, like these people are: http://www.code.org/
Oh and in case you're interested (which I doubt), Will.i.am said "It's important for these kids, right now, starting at 8 years old, to read and write code.“
This certainly isn't biased at all. Nope.
Hey, did you know I helped code Everquest 2 when I was 9? It's true! I said so, see? It's even cited by this post on my wiki page, where I typed out how I had helped code Everquest 2 when I was 9!
See the problem here?
Emphasis required here. Your opinion of a game does not a game make.
I could say, in my opinion, "hello world" is a game, that does not make it a game.
How about pong? Breakout? Hangman? Connect 4? tic-tac-toe? Snake?
These all are simple to make and are defined as "games".
Yes, you used a devkit, which is not at all what we are talking about, had you been reading the thread. Devkits are not part of any of this discussion.
Using a devkit is not the same thing as coding a game. The same way that dragging/dropping items in an in-game level editor for something does not mean you have "coded" a game.
Early yes, but that early, no. Programming in it's whole focuses on areas of the brain that are simply not developed until puberty/adolescence. It's not just "rare" for kids to have these developed before this point, it is quite literally impossible outside of a genetic defect of some kind or maybe a tumor.
Because we all know he makes his money from computer science and is the go-to guy on this sort of thing.
Oh.............
And no, I am not ragging on him because of that. One of my favorite musicians has a degree in nuclear physics and was a nuclear physicist for a large chunk of her life (seriously, too).
I am merely suggesting that he is probably not the best person to be talking about this subject.
I know enough C for, lets say, a text adventure.
To that extent, I think you are right.
Sincerely,
Crazy 11 y/o.
2) What languages are you familiar with? I am familiar with the coding language C++, but I do know a bit of Java
4) Are you familiar with the terms CI and Source Control? Yes I am familiar with these terms. c:
4) How old are you? I am 14 years years old.
An example of my coding can be seen here:
Ah the old "call their sources bias", I put that on the same level as an Ad hominem argument.
Did. You. Even. Click. The. Link?
TADS is the programmer's power tool for IF authoring. It offers a robust and modern language that'll be instantly familiar to anyone who knows Javascript or C++, and a full-featured suite of development tools from text editing to debugging.
You're ignorance makes me weep... But that was besides the point anyway. I was talking about my own experiences at programming and saying that I wasn't trying to make out I was making games at the age of 10. Would you care to share your programming history?
Is there anybody whose opinion you respect? Or do you just judge them if they say something to contradict you?
Oh and I labeled TADS incorrectly, I thought it stood for Text Adventure Development Kit but it actually stands for Text Adventure Development System.
Yes, it is a devkit....... And your point is?
You literally word for word described what a devkit/IDE is.
It helps to be specific in constructing your posts so you don't get thrown on a ride later on.
How is this relevant in any way?
Well alright then, if you insist (was a giant paragraph, decided to separate lazily, deal with it) I know I am forgetting a lot of other things I worked on but we would be here all day if I went to those lengths
I dabbled in LUA to make WoW addons back in 2005-2006 or so and had some books on networking with C++ that I only understood a tiny bit of and gave a tutorial on how to make a working chat lobby (it 'worked', sort of, looking at it now the code in the books is baaaaaaad), learned enough python to make some random programs by 2007 and had published several UI addons for WoW that were mildly successful (~7,500 downloads),
between mid 2007 and early 2008 I was exploring the world of PSP and PS2 homebrew and was part of the second (possibly 3rd) team to successfully bypass sony's firmware DRM check for newer games on the PSP (our method was worse than the other groups but it still worked), after this point I got on the bandwagon of tearing ROMS apart to look at the actual game structure for NES, SNES, genesis and N64 games which led to modding and ROM hacks,
from there in around 2009-2010ish I went back to python to try and make a 2D platformer but due to time constraints from my business was unable to get far, this was also around when I attempted to help with the PS3 flashing scene but due to my lack of a PS3 this didn't last long (plus as soon as I dropped from the group, geohot got the encryption key so there was no point in continuing), from that point in mid 2011 I started dabbling into java a bit when minecraft started to gain ground but I didn't stick with it long as it didn't interest me, after that in late 2011 early 2012 I started doing some more screwing around in python but ended up not bothering with it much as this was when I started moderating the forums here,
it wasn't until mid-late 2012 where I started experimenting with random IDEs and different languages to see if one really hooked me when I was bored but that didn't really happen until later 2012 when I finally decided on a mix of C# and C++ to do experimenting in my free time, from then until a few months ago I was mostly just experimenting with things like sending/receiving information, client/server structure, and other things in that area,
which brings us to now where I am stuck between a few projects I am having difficulty deciding on which to pursue, especially since android app development has recently caught my eye, and past experience with C# helped a bit here to where I have the capability to make some apps that I believe might be pretty decent since there is nothing like them out there,
however, I also have a few projects on the backburner such as a racing game in unity (which is proving difficult due to how I personally want to handle it), a 2d platformer in XNA (plays well, but I'm not creative enough to do level design for a platformer), a dungeon crawler in C# without XNA (more of an experiment, it plays well but the issue is how things are implemented, likely to abandon it), a text adventure in python, a text adventure in C#, a text adventure in C++, a text adventure android app in java, a pong clone android app in java, a breakout clone in XNA, a functional racing game with a single level in blender game engine with python scripting (likely to abandon as BGE is awful, but fun to play with), a turn based RPG in python with "graphics" (read:programmer art), a turn based RPG in C++ with no/placeholder graphics, a turn based RPG in XNA with a broken combat system because I can't the whole into math, a spectacle fighter prototype in unity, a spectacle fighter prototype in UDK (UDK seems nice if you can learn it but it is sooooooooooooooo annoying), a basic platformer with a win and lose state with C++ in Ogre (again, like BGE, fun to play with but annoying), a breakout clone addon for WoW that was a fully functional game, and last but not least my current project which is actually not a game, but an android app with windows/linux integration that I am developing for my own purposes and might release if it turns out well.
Not that much of this really matters, software doesn't interest me near as much as hardware does and was never my main goal, more of a hobby thing. Explaining my experiences there would have been a lot more interesting to read and expand upon. All of this was done in spare time, and from 2007 to onward and including now my spare time is/was EXTREMELY limited due to running a successful business, which was cut even shorter in 2010 when I met my current SO.
Respecting an opinion =/= agreeing with it.
Same basic deal.
Well honestly, this conversation is going to be exceptionally varied due to eggs themselves. They are one big mother trucker in terms of how easy they are to screw up, how differently they can be cooked, how they react with different kinds of oil (if you have peanut oil around, try making an omelet with it instead of butter or veg/olive, it's weird) among other things.
I think the way he has his is a bit watery, eggs are supposed to be fluffy and runny, but not quite to that extreme. I am almost wondering if that is just a UK or french-type style that he picked up in his training.
Either way, eggs are delicious but they suck because of reasons stated. Annoying? Yes. Delicious? Hell yes.
Thinking about coming a mod to simply not moderate.
I've also heard of mixing eggs with a little bit of pancake batter to make absurdly fluffy omelets but I am unsure on that one (plus oh god the calories).
How is this in any way a bad thing? You labeled it as biased without stating any reasons and you think I'm the one on the same level as name calling? You're so far down on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement they need to make a new level. It will be called: fm87 logic - blind contradiction, often used as a final resort.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at to be honest. TADS is far from a point and click program for making games. If you bother to look at the example at the bottom of this page http://www.tads.org/t3doc/doc/t3QuickStart.htm you'll see what I mean. Personally I find Python a lot easier to understand. And are you adding an IDE to your list of exceptions now? It seems that your classification of making a game properly now is a full on first person shooter in binary code.
A sarcastic remark about how they shouldn't be listened to because they don't have a "PhD in computer science" is hardly respecting an opinion.
This topic is branching into so many places I can barely remember what the original discussion was about
It is a quote from notch, on notch's wiki page, referenced by an interview from him. Hence my comment about Everquest.
I never said it was a point and click program for making games. I said it was a devkit.
I am not, but this is still a devkit. I am failing to see why you don't understand this.......
Hahaha what? I am not that petty.
So I should respect a high school dropout working at mcdonald's opinion on why quantum science is a bad thing because he thinks it is on par with black magic, just as well as I should respect someone who is an expert in quantum dynamics?
Absolutely not.
Respect is earned, not given.
Eggs, and how to cook them.
OP's eggs are undercooked, and thus not going to taste good at all. Add to the fact he is not seasoning them and did not make the pan hot enough and he is probably going to give someone salmonella. This wouldn't be so bad, however, he is also not seasoning his eggs which is leading us to all ask the question as to how he plans to cook them and make them taste even slightly palatable.
Given he has not replied after we asked where the seasoning was and why the pan was not hot, I am going to guess he is stuck up on these questions and has no answer for them, which probably leads down to the fact that this was another generic "I'll crack the eggs and you guys do everything else" post.
And thus we have learned there are different styles of cooking eggs all around the world.
If we can't rely on information from Notch about his own life, what information can we use?
A software development kit (SDK or "devkit") is typically a set of software development tools that allows for the creation of applications for a certain software package, software framework, hardware platform, computer system, video game console, operating system, or similar development platform.
I'm saying TADS is a programming language in itself.
A programming language is an artificial language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer. Programming languages can be used to create programs that control the behavior of a machine and/or to express algorithms precisely.
Sounds a lot like TADS to me.
That's just my own theory about people who say "programming a game will be too hard for you" or "it takes years of work to make the simplest of games", but it's probably wrong, I'm not a psychologist
So Will.i.am hasn't earned your respect?
Where did eggs come into it? I'm pretty sure they just slipped in unnoticed somewhere :/
We can use well-documented information on the brain development of children.
Devkits often have their own programming language.
Given this is a tool to make text adventures, I'd bet it does. UDK has unreal script, gamemaker has game maker language, etc.
Well.... It is hard to make games and it does take years to make even simple games. Simple in these terms not meaning "I made a game where you click a square that appears randomly", simple meaning a game that is not junkware/basically a flash game/timewaster.
Anyone who says it's easy to make games has likely never made one.
Why would some singer I've never heard of earn my respect?
OP was talking about eggs, we asked for a hot pan and seasoning and he didn't reply back.
He is presumed dead.
I remember pushing someone of the top of the playground and not getting in trouble for it but that's probably a bit off topic :/
After much wikipedia use I am quite certain TADS isn't a devkit. Text Adventure Development System (TADS) is a prototype-based domain-specific programming language and set of standard libraries for creating interactive fiction (IF) games.
I feel like we're back at the start... what is a simple game? But what I meant was the people who tell those with no experience in programming to throw away their dreams of making a game because only after long years of research and hard work, if their lucky and they have the right type of mind they might, just might, be able to print "hello world" on the screen.
he has a cool name
Ah I see
...said the blind man
...to his deaf daughter