With the update, both the original launch system as well as avalin's new design are broken. Carts no longer boost each other, and because of the additional strength of powered rails, avalin's now sends the cart off the rails and completely onto the pressure plate. Adding one more rail to the design to space it back makes it too weak to activate the pressure plate.
This modified version fixes it...
That looks great, Buppus! It's certainly compact enough for my standards.
It sounds like 1.6.4 is still too broken to be a viable SMP option, but I'll try the new launcher in SSP as soon I can!
Instead of being steamed about 1.6, would anyone like to talk about high-traffic SMP station requirements?
What does a station need to do to work really well in SMP if it's going to be a primary method of transportation and not a novelty?
Can a station really replace portals? /home? /warp? Or is 8 m/s (11.3 m/s diagonally) simply too slow a speed to get around a world?
This station is a hub-and-spoke model, but I've been heavily considering remote-operated stations, where you program a destination into a redstone signal that follows you down the line, activating switches along the way. I think they're pretty much doable now. I'm not fond of loop systems where you have to pause and restart at several stops along your way. What other options are good?
Well, I've got the station up and running with the new launcher and it's very reliable so far - 100% success with various users in about 75 trials - some under very laggy conditions. The footprint is actually quite tiny, departure is instant, and the launcher room actually seems a bit empty and spacious now without the old glitch booster launchers in there.
One major annoyance is that apparently you can't place entities on lightstone blocks in 1.6 - meaning that when destinations were toggled the tracks sitting on lightstone popped off and could not be replaced until the lightstone was removed and replaced with another solid block. Besides that, the station is 100% functional.
As for your bigger question, I think we need to explore whether there have been changes to how portals interact with distances in the overworld. If I understand correctly, it used to require overworld portals to be well over 2km apart in order to link to different portals in the nether. I think that in most servers, the majority of destinations would be less than 2km from a central station, so unless your destinations are very long distances away, rail travel still provides a great deal of utility.
I've had a few thoughts about this myself, and the one idea that stands out is having a parallel station in the nether for fast travel out to those long-distance runs.
Another idea I've been working on is to network the "spokes" by creating a "rim/wheel" track that goes around the circumference of all the "spoke" terminals. The Way Stations concept I've already been using would fit perfectly into that scenario, and it doesn't require any stop/start. That way you have a large, yet very simple and user-friendly network of rail travel options.
I'm interested in your other ideas as well - it just seems a bit more complicated to have redstone following you everywhere in addition to the painstaking track laying that is necessary for the kind of thing we're doing.
This is very similar to buppus' one, but it cuts out a redundant rail. I think that this is as compact as it will get, the two windows are right next to each other! However, as powered rails have a smaller hitbox than unpowered, detector, and standard rails, you cannot put slabs in, or carts can not be inserted. Because of this, mobs and enter a wreak havoc. Entering the cart is also very awkward.
This is my other design. It is slightly larger, but allows for the windows to have slabs, and be at head height. It is more convenient, I prefer this one, but of course, it depends on size restrains.
You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board.
And after looking at your designs, I realized I can change out the first powered rail for an unpowered rail in mine to increase the hitbox for cart placement, as that was one of the drawbacks of my design.
In your first design, you could move the boarding window over one block to get a more accessible view of your cart once it's loaded, and that would also allow you to keep the original window spacing of this station. It's cool to see just how compact it can get though.
If you ask me, 1.6 player detection launching mechanisms are actually a lot easier than before!
That IS pretty exciting! I want to try more combinations of position and velocity and see if we can really characterize the ones that will land a cart in a launchable position.
I'm still running 1.5, since I've transitioned to mostly testing in SMP. It looks like some time next week is the earliest we can expect multiplayer to start working with 1.6.
1.6.6 is finally mostly good to go for SMP! I can upgrade!!
Well, refitting the station to use Availn's new smallest launcher was absolutely trivial. It works great in 1.6.6 SMP! (By implication, minecarts in 1.6.6, bukkit 818, seem mostly solid. I've only found one bug so far where I was trapped in a cart, unable to exit, and it was fixed by relogging.)
This station is now back to using only best-of-breed examples of all available minecart designs, and ready for anything a high-volume server can throw at it!
Next up is publishing the new version, I guess. Station building has gotten a lot easier, which is good because of all the new tutorials and examples that are popping up. On the other hand, nobody has come close to the functional density and routing efficiency this station offers, so it's still relevant! Once I've gotten a new world save game, schematic and maybe a revised video up, let's make this station better!
How about adding features? What else does a high-traffic SMP station need?
Cart Storage/Dispenser:
With cart placement/launching so easy, and dispensers readily available it's hard to justify a cart storage system when you could just add a cart vending station. PEZ stacks or phflack's new storage idea are cool, but only add potential points of failure compared to just dropping a cart out of a dispenser, sadly.
Runaway cart handling:
This could be useful, but some careful thought is required! Does the launcher tend to throw out unoccupied carts? We can catch runaway carts at a number of locations, but that still doesn't catch a player that exits a cart, logs or is disconnected farther down the line. How foolproof can these things really be?
Because of the SMP bug where redstone torches frequently vanish if attached to the sides of blocks in a different chunk, I'm having to move the station a block or two over. What a pain!
With cart placement/launching so easy, and dispensers readily available it's hard to justify a cart storage system when you could just add a cart vending station. PEZ stacks or phflack's new storage idea are cool, but only add potential points of failure compared to just dropping a cart out of a dispenser, sadly.
Runaway cart handling:
This could be useful, but some careful thought is required! Does the launcher tend to throw out unoccupied carts? We can catch runaway carts at a number of locations, but that still doesn't catch a player that exits a cart, logs or is disconnected farther down the line. How foolproof can these things really be?
What else could we add?
phflack's dispenser is amazing (and annoying to make)! You can eliminate the need for a rapid pulse by cutting power to the second last track before powering the last track, and then powering the second last track again (my "lagproof" pez dispenser worked in this basis, but then I was reminded that pez dispensers just plain don't work in SMP). The main problem would be keeping it stocked. If carts are automatically dispensed to launchers, then at some point, one launcher will end up empty due to an empty dispenser. If a call button is introduced, then multiple departures calling a cart could cause problems, unless separate dispensers are made, which is when things start to clear up a bit.
Runaway cart handling should only really be done at station entrance and exits. Fitting it in while routing will bloat the whole thing, and nothing much can be done with an empty cart on the lines between stations.
What else? Well, I'm trying to make a version of Etho's cart shredder that doesn't burn you. That's really trivial though, as you could just break the cart yourself. But I just can't think of anything else!
What it is, simply, is a sloped track, leading into a track that curves around lava. If the cart lands on the sloped track without momentum, then it will go slow enough to only just nick the lava, leaving the player intact.
Strangely, 1.6.6 is a low point for minecarts. Power rails are out, and lots of people are making stations and tutorials, which is good, but most of what they're coming up with is pretty obvious, and the station designs are fairly repetitive. Maybe the design changes have "dumbed down" minecart station design and that explains the lack of too many clever new creative designs?
Also, no one has come up with a true SMP-proof multi-user pause station without conventional boosters. (i.e. no one can pause a cart on a detector rail or pressure plate, then reliably and selectively boost it off in a way that doesn't require a lot of maintenance to keep working in SMP.) That's disappointing.
There are some really nasty bugs that cause damage to minecart riders in 1.6.6:
- Clipping errors that cause you to hit solid blocks that aren't over the rails
- Unpredictable times when falling in a minecart causes damage to the rider, which kills a lot of fun roller-coaster designs.
- Sometimes damage happens to you, but is delayed until the cart comes to a stop. This is similar to falling damage in webs, where you can fall into a web, enter a minecart, sit in place for a half hour, then take the damage when you leave the minecart. The damage just gets delayed. It's a pretty annoying bug.
So, 1.6 has been mostly a letdown for minecarts, but it's MineCraft, so there's always another update on the horizon! 1.7 promises pistons, which should create some amazing new ways of moving things around! Assuming the damage glitches that hurt long-range travel are fixed, there will still be a need for minecart stations on servers that opt away from warps and portals. I expect this station will need a complete refit (yay building) to include all the fun ideas that pistons will create.
It has the newest launcher by availn and works in SMP!
Could you please provide a version that does not place tracks/redstone circuits on top of glowstone blocks? Whenever a cart passes near one of those blocks, the track breaks and it is rather difficult placing the tracks backs. The same thing occurs for some redstone torches/wires.
Of course, I'd understand if it's too much of an inconvenience. :smile.gif:
Could you please provide a version that does not place tracks/redstone circuits on top of glowstone blocks? Whenever a cart passes near one of those blocks, the track breaks and it is rather difficult placing the tracks backs. The same thing occurs for some redstone torches/wires.
Of course, I'd understand if it's too much of an inconvenience. :smile.gif:
I can definitely provide that version, but tracks on glowstone were fixed in 1.6.6, right? We've been using the station without problems. What version of Minecraft are you using?
I can definitely provide that version, but tracks on glowstone were fixed in 1.6.6, right? We've been using the station without problems. What version of Minecraft are you using?
:unsure.gif: My bad, I hadn't updated my Minecraft, everything's working fine now. :smile.gif: Thanks for the schematic!
Sorry for the double post, but I noticed this in the 1.7.3 update: Booster rails are no longer being powered magically without a power source.
Will this affect the station in any way? I noticed long strips of powered rail in some areas, but I'm not sure if you were using concealed torches or the powered rail glitch..
Soorry for the double post, but I noticed this in the 1.7.3 update: Booster rails are no longer being powered magically without a power source.
Will this affect the station in any way? I noticed long strips of powered rail in some areas, but I'm not sure if you were using concealed torches or the powered rail glitch.
Whoa, sorry for the slow response! It works fine in 1.7.2, and I'm waiting for a 1.7.3 bukkit to test there. With the station working, everyone has been out in the hinterlands laying track and building waystations.
Yes, I'm using torches hidden under all the rails.
I need to post an updated .schematic! Now that minecarts no longer cushion falls. (booo!) I have removed the falls from the launch mechanism. Other than that it hasn't had any major changes.
I expected pistons to have more of an impact on cart station design, but so far I haven't seen much use of them. Availn's launcher remains more compact and easy-to-use than any piston arrangement so far.
In 1.7.x, it's STILL an unsolved problem of how to both detect and pause carts on rails! (Something that became an unsolved problem with conventional boosters were broken.) That's really annoying for multi-user waystations.
I like the station and would love to see a video of the updated version :smile.gif:. If there is already one, could you please direct me to it?
With regards to a lack of use of pistons, I think that there are actually many uses for pistons in train stations! I think some of them are difficult to implement (though I am not hugely competent with the use of pistons, so it may be just me), but overall they can be really effective at performing tasks such as player detection (if someone is in a minecart or not) and selection of different destinations.
Look at this video for an example of player detection, and view some of his other videos for more ideas regarding piston uses within train stations.
I think that possibly pistons may also be able to solve your problem of pausing a minecart and detcting it at the same time, but I am not sure. Can you furter explain what you mean by this as I would like to try to come up with a solution in my test world.
That looks great, Buppus! It's certainly compact enough for my standards.
It sounds like 1.6.4 is still too broken to be a viable SMP option, but I'll try the new launcher in SSP as soon I can!
What does a station need to do to work really well in SMP if it's going to be a primary method of transportation and not a novelty?
Can a station really replace portals? /home? /warp? Or is 8 m/s (11.3 m/s diagonally) simply too slow a speed to get around a world?
This station is a hub-and-spoke model, but I've been heavily considering remote-operated stations, where you program a destination into a redstone signal that follows you down the line, activating switches along the way. I think they're pretty much doable now. I'm not fond of loop systems where you have to pause and restart at several stops along your way. What other options are good?
One major annoyance is that apparently you can't place entities on lightstone blocks in 1.6 - meaning that when destinations were toggled the tracks sitting on lightstone popped off and could not be replaced until the lightstone was removed and replaced with another solid block. Besides that, the station is 100% functional.
As for your bigger question, I think we need to explore whether there have been changes to how portals interact with distances in the overworld. If I understand correctly, it used to require overworld portals to be well over 2km apart in order to link to different portals in the nether. I think that in most servers, the majority of destinations would be less than 2km from a central station, so unless your destinations are very long distances away, rail travel still provides a great deal of utility.
I've had a few thoughts about this myself, and the one idea that stands out is having a parallel station in the nether for fast travel out to those long-distance runs.
Another idea I've been working on is to network the "spokes" by creating a "rim/wheel" track that goes around the circumference of all the "spoke" terminals. The Way Stations concept I've already been using would fit perfectly into that scenario, and it doesn't require any stop/start. That way you have a large, yet very simple and user-friendly network of rail travel options.
I'm interested in your other ideas as well - it just seems a bit more complicated to have redstone following you everywhere in addition to the painstaking track laying that is necessary for the kind of thing we're doing.
http://imgur.com/fNGsf&wERkml
This is very similar to buppus' one, but it cuts out a redundant rail. I think that this is as compact as it will get, the two windows are right next to each other! However, as powered rails have a smaller hitbox than unpowered, detector, and standard rails, you cannot put slabs in, or carts can not be inserted. Because of this, mobs and enter a wreak havoc. Entering the cart is also very awkward.
http://imgur.com/fNGsfl&wERkm
This is my other design. It is slightly larger, but allows for the windows to have slabs, and be at head height. It is more convenient, I prefer this one, but of course, it depends on size restrains.
Grrrr...
The New Boat Elevator
Simple Drowning Trap
Complex Drowning Trap
Note Blocks - The Blue Danube
Minecart Rider Detection System
And after looking at your designs, I realized I can change out the first powered rail for an unpowered rail in mine to increase the hitbox for cart placement, as that was one of the drawbacks of my design.
In your first design, you could move the boarding window over one block to get a more accessible view of your cart once it's loaded, and that would also allow you to keep the original window spacing of this station. It's cool to see just how compact it can get though.
If you ask me, 1.6 player detection launching mechanisms are actually a lot easier than before!
I'm still running 1.5, since I've transitioned to mostly testing in SMP. It looks like some time next week is the earliest we can expect multiplayer to start working with 1.6.
Well, refitting the station to use Availn's new smallest launcher was absolutely trivial. It works great in 1.6.6 SMP! (By implication, minecarts in 1.6.6, bukkit 818, seem mostly solid. I've only found one bug so far where I was trapped in a cart, unable to exit, and it was fixed by relogging.)
This station is now back to using only best-of-breed examples of all available minecart designs, and ready for anything a high-volume server can throw at it!
Next up is publishing the new version, I guess. Station building has gotten a lot easier, which is good because of all the new tutorials and examples that are popping up. On the other hand, nobody has come close to the functional density and routing efficiency this station offers, so it's still relevant! Once I've gotten a new world save game, schematic and maybe a revised video up, let's make this station better!
How about adding features? What else does a high-traffic SMP station need?
phflack's dispenser is amazing (and annoying to make)! You can eliminate the need for a rapid pulse by cutting power to the second last track before powering the last track, and then powering the second last track again (my "lagproof" pez dispenser worked in this basis, but then I was reminded that pez dispensers just plain don't work in SMP). The main problem would be keeping it stocked. If carts are automatically dispensed to launchers, then at some point, one launcher will end up empty due to an empty dispenser. If a call button is introduced, then multiple departures calling a cart could cause problems, unless separate dispensers are made, which is when things start to clear up a bit.
Runaway cart handling should only really be done at station entrance and exits. Fitting it in while routing will bloat the whole thing, and nothing much can be done with an empty cart on the lines between stations.
What else? Well, I'm trying to make a version of Etho's cart shredder that doesn't burn you. That's really trivial though, as you could just break the cart yourself. But I just can't think of anything else!
The New Boat Elevator
Simple Drowning Trap
Complex Drowning Trap
Note Blocks - The Blue Danube
Minecart Rider Detection System
http://imgur.com/UCCmp&NTpCs&0pMAO
What it is, simply, is a sloped track, leading into a track that curves around lava. If the cart lands on the sloped track without momentum, then it will go slow enough to only just nick the lava, leaving the player intact.
Some more pics:
http://imgur.com/UCCmp&NTpCsl&0pMAO
http://imgur.com/UCCmp&NTpCs&0pMAOl
It cannot really do much damage to a station if something fails, the worst it could do is kill a player.
The New Boat Elevator
Simple Drowning Trap
Complex Drowning Trap
Note Blocks - The Blue Danube
Minecart Rider Detection System
Here's the download for the 1.6.6 refit. Sorry it took so long! You can download a 1.6.6 schematic here, or a 1.6.6 test world containing the station!
It has the newest launcher by availn and works in SMP!
Neat cart shredder!
Strangely, 1.6.6 is a low point for minecarts. Power rails are out, and lots of people are making stations and tutorials, which is good, but most of what they're coming up with is pretty obvious, and the station designs are fairly repetitive. Maybe the design changes have "dumbed down" minecart station design and that explains the lack of too many clever new creative designs?
Also, no one has come up with a true SMP-proof multi-user pause station without conventional boosters. (i.e. no one can pause a cart on a detector rail or pressure plate, then reliably and selectively boost it off in a way that doesn't require a lot of maintenance to keep working in SMP.) That's disappointing.
There are some really nasty bugs that cause damage to minecart riders in 1.6.6:
- Clipping errors that cause you to hit solid blocks that aren't over the rails
- Unpredictable times when falling in a minecart causes damage to the rider, which kills a lot of fun roller-coaster designs.
- Sometimes damage happens to you, but is delayed until the cart comes to a stop. This is similar to falling damage in webs, where you can fall into a web, enter a minecart, sit in place for a half hour, then take the damage when you leave the minecart. The damage just gets delayed. It's a pretty annoying bug.
So, 1.6 has been mostly a letdown for minecarts, but it's MineCraft, so there's always another update on the horizon! 1.7 promises pistons, which should create some amazing new ways of moving things around! Assuming the damage glitches that hurt long-range travel are fixed, there will still be a need for minecart stations on servers that opt away from warps and portals. I expect this station will need a complete refit (yay building) to include all the fun ideas that pistons will create.
Could you please provide a version that does not place tracks/redstone circuits on top of glowstone blocks? Whenever a cart passes near one of those blocks, the track breaks and it is rather difficult placing the tracks backs. The same thing occurs for some redstone torches/wires.
Of course, I'd understand if it's too much of an inconvenience. :smile.gif:
I can definitely provide that version, but tracks on glowstone were fixed in 1.6.6, right? We've been using the station without problems. What version of Minecraft are you using?
:unsure.gif: My bad, I hadn't updated my Minecraft, everything's working fine now. :smile.gif: Thanks for the schematic!
Sorry for the double post, but I noticed this in the 1.7.3 update: Booster rails are no longer being powered magically without a power source.
Will this affect the station in any way? I noticed long strips of powered rail in some areas, but I'm not sure if you were using concealed torches or the powered rail glitch..
Whoa, sorry for the slow response! It works fine in 1.7.2, and I'm waiting for a 1.7.3 bukkit to test there. With the station working, everyone has been out in the hinterlands laying track and building waystations.
Yes, I'm using torches hidden under all the rails.
I need to post an updated .schematic! Now that minecarts no longer cushion falls. (booo!) I have removed the falls from the launch mechanism. Other than that it hasn't had any major changes.
I expected pistons to have more of an impact on cart station design, but so far I haven't seen much use of them. Availn's launcher remains more compact and easy-to-use than any piston arrangement so far.
In 1.7.x, it's STILL an unsolved problem of how to both detect and pause carts on rails! (Something that became an unsolved problem with conventional boosters were broken.) That's really annoying for multi-user waystations.
With regards to a lack of use of pistons, I think that there are actually many uses for pistons in train stations! I think some of them are difficult to implement (though I am not hugely competent with the use of pistons, so it may be just me), but overall they can be really effective at performing tasks such as player detection (if someone is in a minecart or not) and selection of different destinations.
Look at this video for an example of player detection, and view some of his other videos for more ideas regarding piston uses within train stations.
I think that possibly pistons may also be able to solve your problem of pausing a minecart and detcting it at the same time, but I am not sure. Can you furter explain what you mean by this as I would like to try to come up with a solution in my test world.