Recently I joined a Towny server. I love Towny, it makes people form groups, and with groups there is impetus for conflict. I then decided to be a bandit for a while, scouring the map and stealing everything that wasn't tied down until I found a place I liked to settle. This wasn't against the rules, and I was having a good time sneaking around under others' noses, even managing to filch a guy's horse with diamond armor, riding it to the ocean and ditching it on the beach because I could, generally creating mayhem simply for fun. I was having a bit of a giggle, and started commentating on my actions.
Then they jumped on me.
Even though no one complaining was directly affected, they were pissed that I would dare to steal or kill other players (again, not against the rules on the server). Every time I protested they shouted me down and threatened to report me and have me banned. And that got me to thinking about griefing and how demonized its been made. I come here today, not only in defense of my actions, but in defense of griefing and stealing in general.
Let's start with a comparison: Garry's Mod. GMod is a sandbox, like Minecraft. If it is possible to do it within the laws of physics you can do it. The game is also immensely easy to code for. When Garry's Mod first came out, most people were just dicking around with the physics gun and building rocket chairs. Then they started making games to play inside GMod, Trouble in Terrorist Town, Obstacle Course, Zombie Survival, hell, even /Flappy Garry/ were added to the game by players. Garry's Mod started without conflict, without goals. And in a couple years the playerbase gave themselves dozens of different ways to play the same game, to give themselves conflicts to overcome and goals to accomplish.
Griefing can and often does serve a similar purpose in multiplayer Minecraft. In MP, it's easy to get people to cooperate to build massive towns and cities, to explore the Nether and kill the Enderdragon.
So what happens in these creative build servers or Towny servers when the biggest cathedral is built, or the town wall is finished, or when the enderdragon is dead?
Nothing, that's what. You've achieved your goal, beaten the game as far as that server is concerned. You log in daily to collect the daily quest for the fake money or you stare out the window and chat with other idle players while you watch spiders mill around outside at night. Soon you stop logging in at all. Things are peaceful and perfect, homeostasis is achieved and the player's interest is slackening towards death.
And then they come. Griefers They want to steal from you, batter down your walls and ruin your stuff. You protect it with server commands, but there still there. When you venture out into no man's land they'll kill you without blinking an eye. When you're inside your walls they'll lob arrows at the roofs for fun. It's terrible, and scary... and awfully exciting. There's a threat out there, someone to watch out for, someone to fight. Conflict has happened and will persist until you overcome and succumb. Griefing and banditry breathes new life into servers with waning player counts and keeps people involved, plus it has the added benefit of turning SMP into a massive roguelike, where you can't win, you can only survive.
I understand, some people don't want to be griefed, to see their things destroyed. I feel the same way sometimes, and I keep all my builds in single player where any loss is my own fault.
If you're on multiplayer though, something will happen, be it server failure, server death due to lack of players, or griefers. My suggestion is that you accept griefing and PvP in SMP as a necessary evil for maintaining conflict and driving the server's story as long as it works within the frameworks of the server's rules instead of railing against the very concepts of griefing and playerkilling as demonic forces out to ruin Minecraft.
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DtG: Neutral, just wants to see that big tree in the middle.
Your flavour text lacks zest. Perhaps you should add some intelligence, hmm?~
I agree but I refer to the demonization of griefing as a concept, that the idea that griefing could occur and that someone does grief is somehow evil and makes them a bad person, even if they're allowed to and follow griefing rules.
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DtG: Neutral, just wants to see that big tree in the middle.
Your flavour text lacks zest. Perhaps you should add some intelligence, hmm?~
Griefing is fine in servers where the rules specifically state griefing is allowed. Then you're playing and bulding at your own risk. Everywhere else, you shouldn't grief, ever. You're destroying people's work. Builds they might have spent hours or days working on.
My point is: It's incredibly impolite to grief, unless the creator of the build is aware of the fact that he is playing on a server where griefing is allowed.
I agree. You want to grief? Do it on your own server.
Minecraft is a game, not real life. And in games, you can be a bad guy, without being a bad guy in real life. In fact, many games are based upon that, like the Grand Theft Auto series, or the Thief series, where you have to sneak and steal. In a game you can be whatever you want to be.
Does GTA makes you a bad person? I don't think so. Some say that such games do make you more violent, but there is no scientific proof about that. There is always a big differences in what you do in games and what you do in real life.
Minecraft is a game, not real life. And in games, you can be a bad guy, without being a bad guy in real life. In fact, many games are based upon that, like the Grand Theft Auto series, or the Thief series, where you have to sneak and steal. In a game you can be whatever you want to be.
Does GTA makes you a bad person? I don't think so. Some say that such games do make you more violent, but there is no scientific proof about that. There is always a big differences in what you do in games and what you do in real life.
That last post didn't work at all, sorry. (I couldn't get it to let me insert text after the quote.)
I don't see those situations as being similar at all. Killing an NPC in Grand Theft Auto isn't hurting another person. Griefing someone's base in Minecraft IS hurting another real, live person.
Doing something to hurt another real live flesh-and-blood person IS something you're doing "in real life" -- even if you're using the medium of a video game to do it.
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I don't support griefing one bit (with the exclusion of faction and pvp servers) and don't allow griefing on my servers.
Really, if you think about it, all you're doing is hurting the player from hard earned achievements; such as finishing his/her home or making them lose their valuables. Just some idiot sneaks up, takes your crap and runs. It's pathetic.
Even when I do "grief" on a friend's server, I never leave serious damage. I find it inconsiderate, and just being a total jerk.
So I think we've all confirmed what we already knew and unofficially agreed upon long ago. Griefing for the sake of griefing makes you a bad person. Griefing when allowed under server rules for the sake of PVP or Factions and the like, is a known and accepted risk.
I think griefing is acceptable in some cases. It does add excitement, it does add a challenge. Which is good. But, it also adds anger, and seeing hard work torn down.
I think that griefing is absolutely fine only if they do it in the following circumstances:
They cannot be using hacks or mods to do this. It is completely and utterly breaking every unwritten law of any game.
They must do it while the player is online. If they are offline, all you are doing is giving them a reason not to leave the server, thus a reason not to join it.
They must be on an equal standing with the victim. If you are a king executing a peasant, what demonstration of power is that? It is an abuse of power, unless the peasant deserves it. If a king wins a noble fight against a terrible warrior, they have earned a lot of honor. Same with griefing.
They must be doing it with the expectation and intention of receiving a grief-attack right back
They must know the victim will accept it, or at least handle it well.
It is NOT acceptable if you do what these say not to do, at least in my opinion.
But if you kill someone in an online shooting game, you do also something bad to that player, namely shooting him (or her of course).
But that's the point of the game, and (correct me if I'm wrong) they don't actually lose anything (like a build they worked hard on).
If you're on a server where part of the point of being on the server is that everyone is going to run around griefing each other, then that would be a different case. That's like signing up for a UHC game -- there's nothing wrong with killing other players when the whole point of the game is to kill other players and everyone knows it.
If that had been the case on the OP's server, though, then presumably there wouldn't be people complaining. Apparently people don't see the server as a place where griefing people and being griefed is the fun of the game, even if there are no explicit rules against it.
The main point of my comment, though, is that the fact that it's a video game doesn't change the fact that there are real people on the other side of the screen and thus things done in-game to other people are things done to real-life flesh-and-blood people. That makes it a fundamentally different situation than a game like GTF where you're doing things to NPCs, in which your actions don't have any effect on another person. In a multiplayer game your actions DO effect other people and thus it isn't a separate moral universe -- real-world morality applies. (Which of course can mean shooting your friends in an online shooter, because wanting to get shot at and to shoot at you is the whole reason they're playing. Wouldn't be very much fun if you all just hung around not shooting!)
There's a difference between griefing on different servers. Ones that allow it, then hey that is a threat you have to face. If it isn't, then griefing should not be done. Always a bad apple in the bunch eh?
Like I said: I write only about allowed griefing, not about unwanted griefing.
In my opinion it is the responsibility of the operator to clearly state in the rules that griefing is not allowed, if he (or she) doesn't want that. On a server with all different kind of players you can not rely on so called gentlemen rules.
If a server doesn't want something, it has to rule that, simple as that. And if a server does not rule that griefing is forbidden, then griefing is allowed and part of the game. Even if the informal culture on a server is against it.
You can not expect players to play the way you want them to play, without stating that. Every player is different, has his own vision of what is fun or not and has the ability to influence the culture on a server. So if you want something from every player as operator, you have to communicate that clearly and without doubt.
I somewhat agree with you, but on the other hand...
First, we can not expect server operators to be lawyers, who are able to clearly state rules, what is allowed and what is not. And if they were, who would want to read such rules?
Second, it is actually quite fun and interesting to let rules develop themselves. Written rules versus unwritten ones. Both should be followed. If you join server, it is your task to find out, what kind of informal rules are there, and yours to decide if you will follow them, try to change them or openly oppose them so risking with consequences.
There are much more rules in life and play than laws and other written rules. They change and develope. Sometimes they are quite cruel or strange or just plain stupid. That's what life is.
Yeah, but that is not so easy. It would be quite normal to allow griefing, but with serious limitations. You know, old and good kindergarten rules. Pick someone your own size. Play rough, but only among friends. Stop when asked to. Troll, but do not grief. Do not ruin hard work. All those little rules which are not too easy to write out in right way.
And sure, if you do not like operators style of enforcing rules, you can always leave that server and maybe start your own. But of course, you should get your entrance fee or member fee back.
Yeah, but that is not so easy. It would be quite normal to allow griefing, but with serious limitations. You know, old and good kindergarten rules. Pick someone your own size. Play rough, but only among friends. Stop when asked to. Troll, but do not grief. Do not ruin hard work. All those little rules which are not too easy to write out in right way.
And sure, if you do not like operators style of enforcing rules, you can always leave that server and maybe start your own. But of course, you should get your entrance fee or member fee back.
You kinda just spelled out all the basic rules in a nut shell, so I fail to see your point.
As for unwritten rules, it has been a long standing unwritten rule to NEVER grief for ANY reason unless otherwise stated as being ok. Just because you can do it doesn't give you permission or reason TO do it. I don't grief other people because I don't want someone to do it to me, so Id rather not give anyone a reason.
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Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
That's why I only build nice stuff on SP, on MP there is too much risk.
Plus, I agree with the OP, it's much more fun to be a nomad, or a bandit, fighting others for the sake of it and pillaging for loot.
After all, it's one thing you can't do in SP, even on LAN, without creating grudges with friends. However, you can build peacefully with friends on a realm, LAN, or private server being able to trust the people you know.
I'd flip it around: grieving is ok as long as there isn't a rule against it.
Well I hope we are never on the same server.
Griefing is only a possibility because there is ZERO way to protect your things. So it has always been an understanding to not be a... male body part...
There is no reason for griefing out side of being a lame, sorry excuse of a human being. Once again, hailing to the saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should". So unless the server rules say its ok, don't be a piece of trash by doing it just because "The rules didn't say I couldn't!" Its a cheap excuse to justify poor behavior.
Grieifing is cool, if you don't like it, don't play on a server that doesn't have griefing protection. Simple.
The fact that such a thing is even necessary is deplorable. If the server allows it, that is fine and dandy. You know the risk, and accept the outcome. But when a server doesn't specifically state, "no griefing", it just makes to look like a piece of trash for needlessly destroying someone's hard work for your own kicks and giggles.
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Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
This subtle difference is what the OP is pointing at. Grieving per se isn't purely to cause misery to other people. It's to add excitement and just general messing about. I wouldn't mind being grieft on a server that has no explicit rule against it. In fact, I take that possibility into account when building my things and I'll have great satisfaction in hunting the little bandit down. That's just part of the multiplayer experience and, after all, it's a sandbox game. People will play however they choose to and it's the server owners'/admins' responsibility to lay out rules and enforce them, so there is really no point in preventive shaming of a playstyle that is fully compliant with the rules of the server.
Which again hails back to what I said before. If the server allows it, that is fine and dandy. Have fun, grief away, no one has any issue with that. The issue comes when you grief on any other server whether they state it as being disallowed or not. Unless it specifically states grifing is allowed, its just common decency to NOT do it. It should never be assumed that grifing is allowed just because the server rules don't state otherwise
That's what I've been saying the whole time.
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Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
Seems to me it comes down to the general life rule, "Don't be a jerk."
If you think the person you're griefing isn't going to be OK with it it -- that they're going to see it as destruction of their hard work rather than as part of the challenge of the game -- then it doesn't matter that the server rules allow it. Deliberately making someone unhappy for your own amusement is in general a jerk move and should therefore be avoided.
Then they jumped on me.
Even though no one complaining was directly affected, they were pissed that I would dare to steal or kill other players (again, not against the rules on the server). Every time I protested they shouted me down and threatened to report me and have me banned. And that got me to thinking about griefing and how demonized its been made. I come here today, not only in defense of my actions, but in defense of griefing and stealing in general.
Let's start with a comparison: Garry's Mod. GMod is a sandbox, like Minecraft. If it is possible to do it within the laws of physics you can do it. The game is also immensely easy to code for. When Garry's Mod first came out, most people were just dicking around with the physics gun and building rocket chairs. Then they started making games to play inside GMod, Trouble in Terrorist Town, Obstacle Course, Zombie Survival, hell, even /Flappy Garry/ were added to the game by players. Garry's Mod started without conflict, without goals. And in a couple years the playerbase gave themselves dozens of different ways to play the same game, to give themselves conflicts to overcome and goals to accomplish.
Griefing can and often does serve a similar purpose in multiplayer Minecraft. In MP, it's easy to get people to cooperate to build massive towns and cities, to explore the Nether and kill the Enderdragon.
So what happens in these creative build servers or Towny servers when the biggest cathedral is built, or the town wall is finished, or when the enderdragon is dead?
Nothing, that's what. You've achieved your goal, beaten the game as far as that server is concerned. You log in daily to collect the daily quest for the fake money or you stare out the window and chat with other idle players while you watch spiders mill around outside at night. Soon you stop logging in at all. Things are peaceful and perfect, homeostasis is achieved and the player's interest is slackening towards death.
And then they come. Griefers They want to steal from you, batter down your walls and ruin your stuff. You protect it with server commands, but there still there. When you venture out into no man's land they'll kill you without blinking an eye. When you're inside your walls they'll lob arrows at the roofs for fun. It's terrible, and scary... and awfully exciting. There's a threat out there, someone to watch out for, someone to fight. Conflict has happened and will persist until you overcome and succumb. Griefing and banditry breathes new life into servers with waning player counts and keeps people involved, plus it has the added benefit of turning SMP into a massive roguelike, where you can't win, you can only survive.
I understand, some people don't want to be griefed, to see their things destroyed. I feel the same way sometimes, and I keep all my builds in single player where any loss is my own fault.
If you're on multiplayer though, something will happen, be it server failure, server death due to lack of players, or griefers. My suggestion is that you accept griefing and PvP in SMP as a necessary evil for maintaining conflict and driving the server's story as long as it works within the frameworks of the server's rules instead of railing against the very concepts of griefing and playerkilling as demonic forces out to ruin Minecraft.
DtG: Neutral, just wants to see that big tree in the middle.
Your flavour text lacks zest. Perhaps you should add some intelligence, hmm?~
DtG: Neutral, just wants to see that big tree in the middle.
Your flavour text lacks zest. Perhaps you should add some intelligence, hmm?~
I agree. You want to grief? Do it on your own server.
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That last post didn't work at all, sorry. (I couldn't get it to let me insert text after the quote.)
I don't see those situations as being similar at all. Killing an NPC in Grand Theft Auto isn't hurting another person. Griefing someone's base in Minecraft IS hurting another real, live person.
Doing something to hurt another real live flesh-and-blood person IS something you're doing "in real life" -- even if you're using the medium of a video game to do it.
Really, if you think about it, all you're doing is hurting the player from hard earned achievements; such as finishing his/her home or making them lose their valuables. Just some idiot sneaks up, takes your crap and runs. It's pathetic.
Even when I do "grief" on a friend's server, I never leave serious damage. I find it inconsiderate, and just being a total jerk.
Well this was informative...
Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
Alpha 1.0.4
I think griefing is acceptable in some cases. It does add excitement, it does add a challenge. Which is good. But, it also adds anger, and seeing hard work torn down.
I think that griefing is absolutely fine only if they do it in the following circumstances:
They cannot be using hacks or mods to do this. It is completely and utterly breaking every unwritten law of any game.
They must do it while the player is online. If they are offline, all you are doing is giving them a reason not to leave the server, thus a reason not to join it.
They must be on an equal standing with the victim. If you are a king executing a peasant, what demonstration of power is that? It is an abuse of power, unless the peasant deserves it. If a king wins a noble fight against a terrible warrior, they have earned a lot of honor. Same with griefing.
They must be doing it with the expectation and intention of receiving a grief-attack right back
They must know the victim will accept it, or at least handle it well.
It is NOT acceptable if you do what these say not to do, at least in my opinion.
Inactive account. See Bio.
But that's the point of the game, and (correct me if I'm wrong) they don't actually lose anything (like a build they worked hard on).
If you're on a server where part of the point of being on the server is that everyone is going to run around griefing each other, then that would be a different case. That's like signing up for a UHC game -- there's nothing wrong with killing other players when the whole point of the game is to kill other players and everyone knows it.
If that had been the case on the OP's server, though, then presumably there wouldn't be people complaining. Apparently people don't see the server as a place where griefing people and being griefed is the fun of the game, even if there are no explicit rules against it.
The main point of my comment, though, is that the fact that it's a video game doesn't change the fact that there are real people on the other side of the screen and thus things done in-game to other people are things done to real-life flesh-and-blood people. That makes it a fundamentally different situation than a game like GTF where you're doing things to NPCs, in which your actions don't have any effect on another person. In a multiplayer game your actions DO effect other people and thus it isn't a separate moral universe -- real-world morality applies. (Which of course can mean shooting your friends in an online shooter, because wanting to get shot at and to shoot at you is the whole reason they're playing. Wouldn't be very much fun if you all just hung around not shooting!)
I somewhat agree with you, but on the other hand...
First, we can not expect server operators to be lawyers, who are able to clearly state rules, what is allowed and what is not. And if they were, who would want to read such rules?
Second, it is actually quite fun and interesting to let rules develop themselves. Written rules versus unwritten ones. Both should be followed. If you join server, it is your task to find out, what kind of informal rules are there, and yours to decide if you will follow them, try to change them or openly oppose them so risking with consequences.
There are much more rules in life and play than laws and other written rules. They change and develope. Sometimes they are quite cruel or strange or just plain stupid. That's what life is.
And sure, if you do not like operators style of enforcing rules, you can always leave that server and maybe start your own. But of course, you should get your entrance fee or member fee back.
You kinda just spelled out all the basic rules in a nut shell, so I fail to see your point.
As for unwritten rules, it has been a long standing unwritten rule to NEVER grief for ANY reason unless otherwise stated as being ok. Just because you can do it doesn't give you permission or reason TO do it. I don't grief other people because I don't want someone to do it to me, so Id rather not give anyone a reason.
Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
Alpha 1.0.4
Plus, I agree with the OP, it's much more fun to be a nomad, or a bandit, fighting others for the sake of it and pillaging for loot.
After all, it's one thing you can't do in SP, even on LAN, without creating grudges with friends. However, you can build peacefully with friends on a realm, LAN, or private server being able to trust the people you know.
Well I hope we are never on the same server.
Griefing is only a possibility because there is ZERO way to protect your things. So it has always been an understanding to not be a... male body part...
There is no reason for griefing out side of being a lame, sorry excuse of a human being. Once again, hailing to the saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should". So unless the server rules say its ok, don't be a piece of trash by doing it just because "The rules didn't say I couldn't!" Its a cheap excuse to justify poor behavior.
Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
Alpha 1.0.4
The fact that such a thing is even necessary is deplorable. If the server allows it, that is fine and dandy. You know the risk, and accept the outcome. But when a server doesn't specifically state, "no griefing", it just makes to look like a piece of trash for needlessly destroying someone's hard work for your own kicks and giggles.
Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
Alpha 1.0.4
No, I hate the players. If it weren't for grifers, then grief protection wouldn't be necessary. So yes, I do hate the players.
I do think the game should have built in land claiming as was originally planned long ago, however.
Which again hails back to what I said before. If the server allows it, that is fine and dandy. Have fun, grief away, no one has any issue with that. The issue comes when you grief on any other server whether they state it as being disallowed or not. Unless it specifically states grifing is allowed, its just common decency to NOT do it. It should never be assumed that grifing is allowed just because the server rules don't state otherwise
That's what I've been saying the whole time.
Cast aside your festive doylaks: dragon stuff is about to happen.
Multiplayer is lonely once you understand how it actually works.
Alpha 1.0.4
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If you think the person you're griefing isn't going to be OK with it it -- that they're going to see it as destruction of their hard work rather than as part of the challenge of the game -- then it doesn't matter that the server rules allow it. Deliberately making someone unhappy for your own amusement is in general a jerk move and should therefore be avoided.