From this position... I can see both sides clearly.
There are only two downsides to pillaring as far as I can see it.
1. Unsightly pillars
2. Makes walls without ceilings kinda useless against players.
If those problems could be fixed that would be great. Otherwise I see pillaring as important-- I pillar up one or two blocks many times while making buildings. It's a convenient way to get around.
So I acknowledge that pillaring has some downsides, but I think removing pillaring is not the only answer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You are totally thinking about this signature right now. Read a book.
The funny thing is when i first started to play this game i kinda expected to beable to place a block underneath me when i jump and long behold i could. The mechanic for placing a block is simple if you are with 2 blocks of another and the space is free a block can be placed. So this pilliaring is only following the mechanic.
Its not a glitch and i think your possibly one of the first people to think of it as one. Pillaring is apart of the building mechanic and i garentee notch uses it when hes play MC. This will never go as it is what helps give MC its character.
If you dont believe me start a new world and play with out pilliaring. It feels different... you know like somethings missing.
You use it to get to higher ground quickly for a look at your surroundings.
Its used to escape caves youve fallen into. (with out it you shrewed if your pick breaks)
Its used for building those tall buildings and even for a quick escape from mobs while you compose yourself.
Not true at all, you shouldn't assume how people play. Me for instance, I've done it sometimes, but i tend to avoid pillaring, since it never feels like it really "fits" the gameplay, it's actually really goofy to just be able to rocket yourself into the sky.
There are only two downsides to pillaring as far as I can see it.
1. Unsightly pillars
2. Makes walls without ceilings kinda useless against players.
If those problems could be fixed that would be great.
1. If you make a pillar and you don't like it, tear it down when you're done using it, like I do. If someone else makes a pillar or anything unsightly and you don't like it, then either learn to cope or be the admin for your server so you can kick people who make unsightly things.
2. Everything in existence is useless against players. Outside of ascending a 1x1 shaft with walls of bedrock, pillaring only makes the process quicker, assuming they decide to go over instead of through your wall.
So those are both downsides, but they're not specific to pillaring.
On topic: pillaring is not a glitch per se, though it may be something considered unintended. The process is possible in real life (with slightly smaller and definitely light-weight blocks; some acrobats/others can do it, though not 64 meters up into the air). I could probably live without it for most purposes; I'd just make two pillars side by side, switching sides every step.
Quote from Satharis »
The fun in games is adapting to change, if games just stayed the same forever they'd grow stagnant and dull, something people just don't seem to get.
Quote from Satharis »
Not true at all, you shouldn't assume how people play.
Latter quote right back at you. Some people just don't seem to get that for some other people, the fun comes from being able to build things by oneself. With such ability, there can be fun forever, it doesn't matter if the game develops (EDIT:) changes (after some necessary minimum point).
Some people just "speed play" through games (any game, even this kind of building game) and then either cry for new content or get another game. It is not wrong, perfectly ok, but it would be nice if such persons at least understood their own limitation, accepted it and adapted themselves to that reality, instead of demanding more and more content. Or well, asking for more content is ok, but at least they should accept that the game is not necessarily bad even if it does not receive more content.
I can play games through fast (oh, the memories of non-stop Quake sessions), but I've learned years ago that I get much more enjoyment if I play in shorter "sessions", going through each feature thoroughly. Currently, in both the MMORPGs I play, after years of playing, I still haven't done some things some other players started doing in less than half a year. And I still have fun, even without needing to wait yet another expansion.
This Minecraft is something I have been waiting for a long time. I have found some games of the same type ("build things yourself") as flash games, but they are much more limited.
Right.. if you manage to play the same games forever without any sort of change, give me a call, then I'll agree with that statement. MMO's i can hardly say count anyway, MMO's are constantly updated, and they still tend to get boring to most people after awhile.
I'm sticking to what i said, it's like the booster thing, alot of people are throwing a fit over it, when in reality they need to realize things don't stay the same forever, if you aren't always ready to adapt to new changes you're gonna repeat the same hissyfit alot in life.
This strikes me as an unnecessary scaremongering thread. I don't see "pillaring" as a glitch but, rather, a useful feature that does not rely on some code working together to coincidentally give some unintended effect (like other glitches that have been removed do).
I'd like to make myself clear here; this thread was not intended as scaremongering. At the time, I thought it might actually be reasonable for him to get rid of it. I was giving my (sleep-deprived) opinion, and then asking if other people thought he would remove it, among other things.
But now Satharis has found this thread and its chance of dying peacefully has drastically decreased. Oh well, it'll be fun to watch. Though, admittedly, he's mirroring the point I thought I was making at first but being slightly more hostile about it.
Upon further inspection, I realized that even being unable to place blocks while jumping, you could easily pillar with a 2x1 pillar of blocks, in about the same amount of time, using similar mechanics to the bridgemaking that was mentioned earlier. How would you go about removing it if you thought it needed to be removed?
A build another pilliar at the side of it to the same hight and destroy 3-4 blocks from each side alternating till your back on the ground.
... I didn't mean the pillar itself, I meant the ability to pillar. Being able to pillar that way makes it more difficult than just 'keep people from placing blocks while jumping'.
Also, majority has nothing to do with it, except for helping to guarantee that a legitimate replacement method would be added, like booster tracks.
The removal wouldn't make any difference because a person would then instead make a pillar 2 wide.
So while dropping a 1 block pillar below you isn't very realistic, from a gameplay stand point there isn't a good a good game play option that can remove this ability, other than just making the same thing more of an annoyance.
Personally I don't understand why he's removing these "glitches" at all.
Because it's a game that's going to be released to the public, and glitches make it look unpolished and unprofessional. It seems to me like pillaring would fall under the same category.
Glitches in the game are found by innovation and invention which make this game great. Some might be huge exploits in the game but you have to give credit for the ingenuity of players who find them.
You know what no-one has pointed out (that I saw while scanning the thread)? Removal of pillaring would, at the moment, have potential to break a world, think about it, right now if we get in a position like
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we can pillar our way out.
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If pillaring get removed then it is impossible to get out of that situation unless you happen to have a bucket of water with you or can get someone to come down and get you out with water (or a ladder). While it is a good idea to carry water with you when mining, not everyone does that (I know I don't do it all the time) and if you were playing SP and happened to be a bit absent minded it is quite possible that you could get yourself in a position where it is impossible to get out without using something like MCedit or INVedit (you can get yourself into that position now but it requires you having no placeable blocks of any kind in your inventory rather than just not having a particular item so it pretty much never comes up). This means that removing pillaring would also require a re-work of the chunk generation to ensure that bedrock could never have a hole deeper than you can jump or people would have to permanently have water or a few ladders with them while underground.
Add to all that the fact that it doesn't feel like a bug and is quite intuitive, you start your first game and you kinda expect to be able to jump and place a block under you without even thinking about it and we have the makings for something that is almost certainly not a glitch and (IMO) will not be removed. Compare other glitches, do you really expect that having water every other block while facing in a certain direction would allow you to climb quickly? Without thinking about how they worked, did anyone intuitively go "oh, placing two minecarts next to each other will make them go fast"? No, people had to look at the mechanics closely and test things a lot before these were found. Heck, most glitches in games are very counter-intuitive, just to take some examples from this thread
Mario's Wall Jump. At the time there was no intuitive "well obviously I can jump off walls", someone got lucky.
Missingno. Who the heck thought "If I talk to this one random guy and then fly to that city and surf on that coastline where no good pokemon for catching or training appear maybe something cool will happen"? No-one, that's who, somebody out there got lucky and then pieced it together.
TL:DR
Pillaring is an intuitive part of Minecraft which would be potentially game breaking if removed as opposed to water ladders and glitch boosters which are counter-intuitive and have no potential to break the game if removed. Pillaring is, therefore, very likely not be a glitch and not likely to get removed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I find myself in time of trouble/Mother Mary comes to me/Speaking words of wisdom/If you have stuff on you that you want to keep/make a chest and put everything into it./Now press F3
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
-Quite a few things that would make this too long of a reply-
TL:DR Pillaring is an intuitive part of Minecraft which would be potentially game breaking if removed as opposed to water ladders and glitch boosters which are counter-intuitive and have no potential to break the game if removed. Pillaring is, therefore, very likely not be a glitch and not likely to get removed.
This is a good response. I approve of this logic wholeheartedly, but I still enjoy theory and speculation as to what Notch would do if he wanted to remove it.
Pillaring needs two things: We must be able to place blocks while moving/falling and we must be able to jump higher than 1 block. Remove one of them and pillaring will be impossible. Removing the ability to jump higher than 1 block would be game breaking, but option 1 could in theory be removed.
Pillaring needs two things: We must be able to place blocks while moving/falling and we must be able to jump higher than 1 block. Remove one of them and pillaring will be impossible. Removing the ability to jump higher than 1 block would be game breaking, but option 1 could in theory be removed.
It's been established that you can essentially still pillar by making two stacks without any jumping during placement being involved, so that would be more of a nerf than a removal. Also I suggest you read The_White2086's post on the matter in this thread.
-Quite a few things that would make this too long of a reply-
TL:DR Pillaring is an intuitive part of Minecraft which would be potentially game breaking if removed as opposed to water ladders and glitch boosters which are counter-intuitive and have no potential to break the game if removed. Pillaring is, therefore, very likely not be a glitch and not likely to get removed.
This is a good response. I approve of this logic wholeheartedly, but I still enjoy theory and speculation as to what Notch would do if he wanted to remove it.
I like people who remove massive quotes instead of just repeating the massive post. Makes the forum look nicer.
Honestly, other than the situation I proposed, removal of pillaring would just mean that you would carry twice as much dirt when building straight up and build like this
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etc basically causing every pillar to take three times as long to build and twice as long to dismantle. Also, getting out of 1*1 holes made out of material other than bedrock would always involve digging stairs upward. Pretty much, without pillaring everything takes longer to do
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I find myself in time of trouble/Mother Mary comes to me/Speaking words of wisdom/If you have stuff on you that you want to keep/make a chest and put everything into it./Now press F3
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
You know what no-one has pointed out (that I saw while scanning the thread)? Removal of pillaring would, at the moment, have potential to break a world, think about it, right now if we get in a position like
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we can pillar our way out.
[]
If pillaring get removed then it is impossible to get out of that situation unless you happen to have a bucket of water
--snip--
This is exactly what I was thinking when I first read this thread. I have already been in positions where I was mining around bedrock and dropped into a two-deep hole. The only way I could get out was to use "pillaring". If that was not available, I would basically have to go find an editor to remove a bedrock block or move my position.
Thanks for taking the time to visually demonstrate what I've been trying to tell people. I'm often too lazy for emoticon diagrams. /notsarcasm
4am Saturday morning. To tired to play minecraft. Batman isn't downloaded yet (lost my game disc and wanted to replay it... sigh, piracy at it's best, replacing stuff I already paid for once) and too lazy to get out of my chair and go to bed. I needed something to entertain me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I find myself in time of trouble/Mother Mary comes to me/Speaking words of wisdom/If you have stuff on you that you want to keep/make a chest and put everything into it./Now press F3
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
I'm not going to argue one way or another on how pillaring effects gameplay, or whether or not Notch intends to keep it, but it IS a glitch. It was not intentionally coded into the game, and therefore fits the one and only criteria for a glitch. (Well, technically 'bug', but nobody uses the original definition of a glitch anymore) I know this is the internet and all, but it really bugs me when people use their own special definitions for words, and cause all sorts of stupid arguments because everybody else has their own definitions.
Not all glitches are detrimental to gameplay. Not all glitches must be fixed. Abuse of glitches may be considered cheating to some, but only ever in the context of multiplayer competition.
If you want to say that pillaring is an improvement to Minecraft, say that! Don't say it isn't a glitch because that's just plain illiterate.
I'm not going to argue one way or another on how pillaring effects gameplay, or whether or not Notch intends to keep it, but it IS a glitch. It was not intentionally coded into the game, and therefore fits the one and only criteria for a glitch. (Well, technically 'bug', but nobody uses the original definition of a glitch anymore) I know this is the internet and all, but it really bugs me when people use their own special definitions for words, and cause all sorts of stupid arguments because everybody else has their own definitions.
Not all glitches are detrimental to gameplay. Not all glitches must be fixed. Abuse of glitches may be considered cheating to some, but only ever in the context of multiplayer competition.
If you want to say that pillaring is an improvement to Minecraft, say that! Don't say it isn't a glitch because that's just plain illiterate.
Do we know for a fact that is wasn't intended to work like that? Word of Notch? Twitter post? Development Blog? If You can post a link to somewhere that Notch has said that it wasn't intended in the programming then it definitely counts as a glitch. At the moment, all I have to go by is my own brain and my brain says that it doesn't feel like a glitch or bug.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I find myself in time of trouble/Mother Mary comes to me/Speaking words of wisdom/If you have stuff on you that you want to keep/make a chest and put everything into it./Now press F3
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
There are only two downsides to pillaring as far as I can see it.
1. Unsightly pillars
2. Makes walls without ceilings kinda useless against players.
If those problems could be fixed that would be great. Otherwise I see pillaring as important-- I pillar up one or two blocks many times while making buildings. It's a convenient way to get around.
So I acknowledge that pillaring has some downsides, but I think removing pillaring is not the only answer.
Not true at all, you shouldn't assume how people play. Me for instance, I've done it sometimes, but i tend to avoid pillaring, since it never feels like it really "fits" the gameplay, it's actually really goofy to just be able to rocket yourself into the sky.
1. If you make a pillar and you don't like it, tear it down when you're done using it, like I do. If someone else makes a pillar or anything unsightly and you don't like it, then either learn to cope or be the admin for your server so you can kick people who make unsightly things.
2. Everything in existence is useless against players. Outside of ascending a 1x1 shaft with walls of bedrock, pillaring only makes the process quicker, assuming they decide to go over instead of through your wall.
So those are both downsides, but they're not specific to pillaring.
Right.. if you manage to play the same games forever without any sort of change, give me a call, then I'll agree with that statement. MMO's i can hardly say count anyway, MMO's are constantly updated, and they still tend to get boring to most people after awhile.
I'm sticking to what i said, it's like the booster thing, alot of people are throwing a fit over it, when in reality they need to realize things don't stay the same forever, if you aren't always ready to adapt to new changes you're gonna repeat the same hissyfit alot in life.
But now Satharis has found this thread and its chance of dying peacefully has drastically decreased. Oh well, it'll be fun to watch. Though, admittedly, he's mirroring the point I thought I was making at first but being slightly more hostile about it.
Upon further inspection, I realized that even being unable to place blocks while jumping, you could easily pillar with a 2x1 pillar of blocks, in about the same amount of time, using similar mechanics to the bridgemaking that was mentioned earlier. How would you go about removing it if you thought it needed to be removed?
Also, majority has nothing to do with it, except for helping to guarantee that a legitimate replacement method would be added, like booster tracks.
So while dropping a 1 block pillar below you isn't very realistic, from a gameplay stand point there isn't a good a good game play option that can remove this ability, other than just making the same thing more of an annoyance.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0OtPNZX22RvZVeq4-dHa8GYKOc5lojKX
Glitches in the game are found by innovation and invention which make this game great. Some might be huge exploits in the game but you have to give credit for the ingenuity of players who find them.
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we can pillar our way out.
[]
If pillaring get removed then it is impossible to get out of that situation unless you happen to have a bucket of water with you or can get someone to come down and get you out with water (or a ladder). While it is a good idea to carry water with you when mining, not everyone does that (I know I don't do it all the time) and if you were playing SP and happened to be a bit absent minded it is quite possible that you could get yourself in a position where it is impossible to get out without using something like MCedit or INVedit (you can get yourself into that position now but it requires you having no placeable blocks of any kind in your inventory rather than just not having a particular item so it pretty much never comes up). This means that removing pillaring would also require a re-work of the chunk generation to ensure that bedrock could never have a hole deeper than you can jump or people would have to permanently have water or a few ladders with them while underground.
Add to all that the fact that it doesn't feel like a bug and is quite intuitive, you start your first game and you kinda expect to be able to jump and place a block under you without even thinking about it and we have the makings for something that is almost certainly not a glitch and (IMO) will not be removed. Compare other glitches, do you really expect that having water every other block while facing in a certain direction would allow you to climb quickly? Without thinking about how they worked, did anyone intuitively go "oh, placing two minecarts next to each other will make them go fast"? No, people had to look at the mechanics closely and test things a lot before these were found. Heck, most glitches in games are very counter-intuitive, just to take some examples from this thread
Mario's Wall Jump. At the time there was no intuitive "well obviously I can jump off walls", someone got lucky.
Missingno. Who the heck thought "If I talk to this one random guy and then fly to that city and surf on that coastline where no good pokemon for catching or training appear maybe something cool will happen"? No-one, that's who, somebody out there got lucky and then pieced it together.
TL:DR
Pillaring is an intuitive part of Minecraft which would be potentially game breaking if removed as opposed to water ladders and glitch boosters which are counter-intuitive and have no potential to break the game if removed. Pillaring is, therefore, very likely not be a glitch and not likely to get removed.
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
I like people who remove massive quotes instead of just repeating the massive post. Makes the forum look nicer.
Honestly, other than the situation I proposed, removal of pillaring would just mean that you would carry twice as much dirt when building straight up and build like this
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etc basically causing every pillar to take three times as long to build and twice as long to dismantle. Also, getting out of 1*1 holes made out of material other than bedrock would always involve digging stairs upward. Pretty much, without pillaring everything takes longer to do
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
This is exactly what I was thinking when I first read this thread. I have already been in positions where I was mining around bedrock and dropped into a two-deep hole. The only way I could get out was to use "pillaring". If that was not available, I would basically have to go find an editor to remove a bedrock block or move my position.
- sunperp
4am Saturday morning. To tired to play minecraft. Batman isn't downloaded yet (lost my game disc and wanted to replay it... sigh, piracy at it's best, replacing stuff I already paid for once) and too lazy to get out of my chair and go to bed. I needed something to entertain me.
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be
Not all glitches are detrimental to gameplay. Not all glitches must be fixed. Abuse of glitches may be considered cheating to some, but only ever in the context of multiplayer competition.
If you want to say that pillaring is an improvement to Minecraft, say that! Don't say it isn't a glitch because that's just plain illiterate.
Do we know for a fact that is wasn't intended to work like that? Word of Notch? Twitter post? Development Blog? If You can post a link to somewhere that Notch has said that it wasn't intended in the programming then it definitely counts as a glitch. At the moment, all I have to go by is my own brain and my brain says that it doesn't feel like a glitch or bug.
write down the coordinates that it tells you/Die and respawn/Write down the new coordinates/Walk to the first set of coordinates/pick up your stuff and walk back to the second set/Let it be