Some people don't seem to realise what exactly it is that makes Minecraft special and unique. Think about it. Which part of Minecraft is unlike almost every other game out there? Is it the fact that you can swing a sword at monsters and collect loot from them? NO, there's NOTHING unique about that. What is unique about Minecraft is the fact that you can modify your environment for whatever whim or purpose, to the point of building complex contraptions and machines. This is the essence of Minecraft, and the only thing that makes it worth playing. Besides this, all Minecraft has is bad graphics. When you say mob farming should be removed, you basically haven't come to terms with what Minecraft is. You're asking to dilute the one thing that makes Minecraft unique, in order to make it more like every other unimaginative hack and slash out there. Stop judging Minecraft by the same standards as other games.
And stop talking about 'balance'. The only thing that matters is whether a game is fun or not. Can anyone explain how exactly someone making a mob farm in their game can possibly make your game less fun for you? If you can't, then you're basically suggesting that Notch should make the game less interesting for a significant portion of his customers, while not actually improving your gaming experience in any way. You don't sell a million copies of a game by making decisions like that.
You know, if we stopped responding to everyone that misunderstood why we're still here.. we wouldn't have anyone to argue with, including the guy that just posted.
I don't care about how much fun you're having and how unique Minecraft is. Mob traps are an exploit, cut and dry. I do enjoy reading how everyone rewords "Minecraft is a sandbox" "unique" "do what you want" "don't like it don't use it".
I don't care about how much fun you're having and how unique Minecraft is. Mob traps are an exploit, cut and dry. I do enjoy reading how everyone rewords "Minecraft is a sandbox" "unique" "do what you want" "don't like it don't use it".
A game is supposed to be fun you know.
Also, a unique game nowadays, sells, a game that doesn't sell dies. So it's important to have unique characteristics too.
Mob traps may be an exploit but guess what, they're good for the game, they keep the game interesting removing the boredom of going out for resources.
A similar thing happened with Diablo 2, one the most successful games in history if not THE most successful. Mephisto and Baal runs and Countess runs, Cow level... I sure as hell didn't see Blizzard actually fixing these, because most people did it to get good items in this lifetime. IMO these "exploits" are probably what kept the game alive for so long.
Remove mob traps, in example by making what people suggested, removing mobs drops from environment kills, and a LOT of people will stop playing, I have enough chores in my real life to launch another game and have even more chores.
And yes, don't like it, don't use it, really. Make your own server and forbid everyone from building them if you must. Complaining about a game mechanic that's completely optional for you to use makes no sense.
Saying that other people aren't playing the game the way it's meant to be played is also no excuse, mob traps are fun to make and study, just for the sake of it, personally I like them more than building castles or such, they're actually harder to make and demand more time than a lot of other crap you see posted all around.
"Fix" mob traps and you effectively make no change to the gameplay of the few who don't like them, on the other hand a lot of other people will just get disappointed, so, what is the benefit ?
Everything else you posted was a waste of time, both because it's been said a hundred times already and because it's not relevant to reply to what I was saying with that.
It being an exploit is the only thing I'm here for.
Fixing, fun, and uniqueness are all irrelevant to what I'm saying.
Everything else you posted was a waste of time, both because it's been said a hundred times already and because it's not relevant to reply to what I was saying with that.
It being an exploit is the only thing I'm here for.
Fixing, fun, and uniqueness are all irrelevant to what I'm saying.
Personally, I see them as an exploit. I see it as a lazy means to acquired materials, but it's a player's preference if they wanna use it or not. Call me old fashion, but if I need bones or sulfur, I go hunting.
The only reason I find it acceptable if its tied into a trap or moat of a structure.
I'm thankful that you understand where I'm coming from, as everyone else just misinterprets what I say.
Cool now I'd like you to see where I come from, an exploit isn't necessarily a bad thing, your suggestions all the way on the first page are pretty much killing mob farms, as I mentioned an example, "mobs not dropping items from environmental kills", will kill mob farms and really bring nothing (or in the case of some other ideas, very little) to the gameplay, except for the "different items dropping for players kills", all other ideas seem centered on hurting mob farms.
You wouldn't suggest these ideas if you didn't want to remove farms, you clearly don't like them, and when you suggest balance changes to hurt them, then say you have nothing against farms, makes no sense.
Disregarding what everyone else is saying by replying as you do only make you look like a troll.
I don't have a reason to offer a reasonable rebuttal to those points, as that's not the point of this discussion.
Yes they are, they are all reasons on why mob farms are important and should stay, they are all reasons why your ideas shouldn't be implemented since your ideas would hurt the farms.
What you suggest, that the game is subject to change and coincidently that can hurt farms, well, then these changes should be avoided as much as possible, farms should stay as much as possible, they're one more thing to build if you want. It's not like the items that you get are that important anyway, AFAIK no mob drop diamonds/iron.
Again I'll use Diablo 2 as example, do you think that people would like it if blizzard decided that mephisto should no longer drop items ? It was certainly an exploit and was left alone. Same rule goes for mob farms in minecraft, leave them as they are and don't make changes that might hurt them, unless these changes actually make a lot of sense, like I can agree that lava should burn all wooden stuff (signs, ladders) and should go down.
I've built farms and studied them ever since I got this game, guess how many times I actually bothered using the items ? Zero. I'm a new player to this game and I'm still finding a lot of fun only with farms. They're much cooler to build than static castles :tongue.gif:
The player is ultimately responsible for the quality of their experience.
You can either make mob traps, or not. If you do, you can either learn to do it through experimentation, finding the best design, or you could read a tutorial. You could watch a tutorial on YouTube.
You could just watch YouTube videos instead of playing Minecraft.
i think they're fine, i've tried to make one. didn't work, though.
i don't think it's really an exploit or cheat. unless you're actually hacking in mob spawners. just making a little trap in your house or in a dungeon is fine.
TL;DR:
1)Removing mob traps makes TNT useless
2)Unlimited return/finite investment argument is fallacious.
I'm a cannon designer. I and many other people have spent many hours and a great deal of ingenuity building TNT cannons and it's amazing what we've come up with, you should check it out if you get a chance! Now cannons are pretty expensive in terms of TNT, a single shot of a cannon that is powerful enough to be worthwhile uses 7+ TNT, and the whole point of a cannon is to have something you can fire many times. The only legit way to get this quantity of TNT is through using mob farms. The other uses of TNT also require quantity to be worthwhile so you could say that the game would be unbalanced if there was no way to acquire lots of TNT, since this would make a block useless.
So I would first say that any fix to mob farms that makes it impossible to acquire large amounts of TNT is worse than no fix at all. I would be willing to accept it if some other method was introduced to farm sulphur (and lets be plain, "farming" is required), but it's hard to see what this method could be. Anything else would destroy one of the most inventive and amazing MC communities.
Secondly I hear this argument that once you have your mob farm up and running you can get an infinite amount of resource X and thus means mob farms are unbalanced since you are getting infinite reward for finite cost. This argument is mistaken because it does not take into account diminishing returns. The 50th stack of arrows a player gets from a mob trap is worthless, and the VALUE returned is finite and limited to what the player can actually use. So you have a finite investment and a finite return.
Is this investment/return ratio unbalanced? It's a matter of opinion, but its worth pointing out mob trap is a huge investment, not just in construction/cavern clearing time but in the time and initiative it takes to look up how to construct it, which indeed puts it out of the reach of a majority of players. It is many times more expensive than any of the other purely material investments you can make, which is presumably what the devs have balanced the game around. This tends to make me think that it is not in fact unbalanced.
Boosters are an exploit, as two minecarts should be able to pass each other without being accelerated to maximum momentum.
Each section of a mob trap however functions as intended. Monsters are intended to spawn in dark areas, intended to flow in water, intended to drown when submerged, etc.
I would say lava floating over ladders is the one potential exploit.
Booster are a glitch, and people using them is the exploit.
It's funny how people keep coming back with replies about morality and good vs bad, seeing as these two things are irrelevant.
You're still exploiting a poorly optimized spawning algorithm and dumb AI.
I hate that everyone thinks I'm trolling, because I'm definitely not. Either that, or I'm the most persistent troll this board has seen in a while. I don't know. Whatever you want to call me is fine.
I'm not gonna bother writing individual replies because nothing new has come up in the defense of mob traps yet.
-I'm not forcing anything on you. Play the game how you want it.
-I don't hate mob traps. Yes, I posted suggestions that were provoked by the discussion, but they're decent suggestions that flow with the rest of the game. Yes they'll probably force you to find a new way to work your mob traps.
-I don't care if mob traps are fixed. I don't know if I can actually say this enough. I don't care if mob traps are fixed. They don't affect me at all. I don't care if mob traps are fixed.
-I'm not forcing anything on you.
-I don't care if mob traps are fixed.
-I don't hate mob traps.
-I'm not trying to spoil your fun.
Stuff for you:
-e-yelling at me is dumb on your part.
-e-insulting me is, too.
-rewording the same old arguments isn't working in your favor. Apparently reworking my replies isn't effective either.
-"/thread" and "this is a stupid discussion" and "why is this still here" are just spamming the thread. Plus you're helping to keep the thread alive, which apparently isn't want you want. Thanks for contributing to the cause though.
-Nobody cares what I think. Does that mean I'll stop sharing it with you? Not as long as people keep playing that broken record.
-I really don't have any problems with 80% of the posters.
So how about we stop talking about exploiting for a few pages here and talk about mob traps being overpowered or underpowered or whatever it was you voted in the poll. It seems like any time the word exploit is mentioned, it's just a bunch of "Nuh-uh, sandbox". Sure you can say the same to me, that all I'm saying is "Yes, it's an exploit." Feel free to add your own internet lingo and misspellings and grammar mistakes to make me look dumb while you're at it. It won't be the first time.
So are mob traps overpowered? Definitely. You simply get too many items for free, with no effort to receive said items. "Everything is free, everything is infinite, blah blah." I know your argument already, I've already heard it. Sure, all the items are infinite, but can you get an effectively infinite supply of mob drops in the same time you can from a mob grinder? Any time you run out of arrows, just go sit in your mob trap while you browse the forum or walk your dog. Come back and look! 3 stacks of arrows, 2 and a half stacks of bonemeal, a stack of sulfur and a bunch of feathers and strings! Magically! How much effort and time did you just put into getting those items? None.
"Tree farms can be AFK'd, etc" Yep, they can. But do you get your logs automatically? Do the trees fall over onto a row of axes that chops them up into logs and deliver them to your inventory? No, because you have to actually do something to get those trees you just AFK'd. You have to put effort and time in. "Cutting down trees hardly takes any time." But it took time, whereas sitting at the end of a water current gathering items took none.
"What about cactus farms? Surely those are evil and you should hate those, too." Well, I don't hate them, but that doesn't make them not an exploit. Pretty sure the premise behind a cactus is that it can't grow adjacent to anything. Instead of checking where the next cactus block up will go, the growth function/algorithm spawns the new cactus and then checks if it's adjacent to any blocks. Taking advantage of this is, in fact, exploitative. No, automatic cactus farms aren't as useful as mob farms, but it's the same premise.
"So what about dirt.. you can use dirt to blah blah so it's overpowered blah blah." Yea, that thread already got locked for being a mockfest.
Now go ahead and pick apart my post and misquote me, because it's bound to happen.
I don't have a reason to offer a reasonable rebuttal to those points, as that's not the point of this discussion.
Um...that is exactly the point of this discussion - whether mob farms are "unbalanced" or "exploitive," and the nature of the game itself as a sandbox all but negates these concepts to begin with. The fact that you constantly refuse to respond to what you clearly cannot dissect logically or morally is all the proof necessary to determine that you don't have an argument to speak of.
I'm thankful that you understand where I'm coming from, as everyone else just misinterprets what I say.
Here's a basic fact of interpersonal communication: It is your responsibility to ensure your message is conveyed clearly.
In one message you say you're fine with them and they can stay:
I don't want them gone. In fact, I'm perfectly fine if they stay in the game.
while in another you say they're clearly overpowered and should be nerfed:
A mob farm is a structure built for the sole purpose of farming mob drops. Once set up, they yield infinitely many items at an astounding rate, depending on the size. Most mob traps advertised yield more than 5000 items per hour.
By the way, OP, the poll is still biased.
For the record, I voted for nerf/balanced.
You support measures suggested for the sole purpose of nerfing mob farms:
-Mobs drop nothing when killed by the environment.
-Spawning algorithms that decrease spawn rate when an absurd amount of them die in a given area.
-Mobs that can destroy blocks.
-Changes to liquid physics.
...despite their potential detrimental consequences regarding core game mechanics. And then you whine when people argue with your position. No one is "misinterpreting" what you say, you just suck at saying what you mean in a clear and concise manner.
Morality again. Sandbox means play how you want. Right, I understand that. Sandbox does not mean that you're not exploiting game mechanics when you are.
I am perfectly fine for them to stay in the game. In fact, I just posted that.
Before you misquote me, read the rest of what you quoted, and pay attention to the context:
"For the record, I voted for nerfed/balanced". So instead of realizing that those aren't even the poll options anymore, you misquote me. The poll was unfairly biased and the only option for me to choose was nerf/balance. I want balanced, not nerfed. Now that the poll is less biased, I chose Overpowered.
So next time don't pick and choose what you want to quote me on when balanced is right next to nerfed, and you're talking out of context.
The only thing detrimental about my suggestions was mobs not dropping items on environmental deaths. The other suggestions have no chance of negatively impacting the game other than making it harder or stopping people from designing mob traps the way they're designed now.
So, you misinterpret what I say, and decide to misquote me to prove your point.
Quote from asferot »
Quote from trunksbomb »
Quote from asferot »
My stance on this topic: I dont give a rats ass!!
My stance on your post: Don't post if you don't want to contribute!
Sorry, but I simply answered the question given in the title.
Sandbox does not mean that you're not exploiting game mechanics when you are.
You have yet to explain how "exploiting" (meaning "to use to your best ability") game mechanics is detrimental. That's what you're ****ing supposed to do.
"For the record, I voted for nerfed/balanced". So instead of realizing that those aren't even the poll options anymore, you misquote me. The poll was unfairly biased and the only option for me to choose was nerf/balance. I want balanced, not nerfed. Now that the poll is less biased, I chose Overpowered.
So next time don't pick and choose what you want to quote me on when balanced is right next to nerfed, and you're talking out of context.
I had no idea the poll options had changed. Regardless, "nerfed/balanced" means the same thing as "overpowered," as far as the poll's intent is concerned. If you think grinders need to be balanced, you clearly believe them to be overpowered.
Now, let's ignore that item, and take a look at your personal attack laced into your deflection. How the hell could I "misquote" you when I used Ctrl+C and Ctrl+F? You accuse me of "quoting you out of centext" when the context is self evident. Explain what "context" is absent in the quotes. I showed clear examples of you making contradictory statements.
The only thing detrimental about my suggestions was mobs not dropping items on environmental deaths. The other suggestions have no chance of negatively impacting the game other than making it harder or stopping people from designing mob traps the way they're designed now.
No mob drops from environmental deaths is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders.
Changing water flow mechanics to not push mobs and/or items (As was suggested before and could be the only thing you mean when including it as a suggestion) is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders, and would negatively impact other aspects of the game.
The only suggestion on the list that makes any sense whatsoever outside of attempts to kill mob farms is lava burning signs/ladders. That's just a material consistency issue.
If Notch could fix water flow in and around the odd blocks, that too would have an effect on the functioning of grinders but wouldn't outright kill the concept and again, is an issue of material consistency. Unfortunately from the way it sounded he hasn't put much effort into trying to fix that, or it would be extraordinarily difficult.
So, you misinterpret what I say, and decide to misquote me to prove your point.
Absolutely not. And you didn't even respond to the core of my post, which is that you're talking out both sides of your mouth. You keep saying "oh I'm ok with them!" but simultaneously suggest they need to be "rebalanced" (Synonymous for "nerfed," because you mean "downgraded") and offer up suggestions exclusively contrived for said "rebalancing."
Really, the only mechanical issues relevant to grinders that need to be addressed are wooden items burning and water flow over oddly shaped blocks. That's it. Grinders themselves, as has been pointed out repeatedly and, as usual with what you can't argue against, summarily dismissed as "irrelevant," are not in any way out of balance. They provide a steady stream of items that you're going to have a surplus of anyway no matter how you play. The only exception is sulfur, which is useless in small quantities, and cannot be obtained in mass quantities through any other means whatsoever.
So, in conclusion:
1. Explain the "context" I quoted you out of.
2. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced when they provide exactly one unique drop that is only useful in large quantities, and all other drops are likely to get tossed into the incinerator.
3. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced, while simultaneously claiming that they're just fine and dandy.
1. You say I contradict myself. However, I do not. I've been arguing two things this whole time- mob grinders are reliant on flawed game mechanics and that they need to be balanced. Quoting me on what I voted in a previous poll, while my vote supported my stance anyways, and trying to use that as me contradicting myself, is out of context.
2. Grinders are imbalanced in comparison to the rest of the game mechanics. If you play on a world long enough, you'll run out of your "finite supply" and what do you do then? Go back to your grinder and AFK some more "finite" loot. It's odd that you can infinitely gather such finite loot..
3. Again, you misunderstand. I argue that mob grinders are exploiting flawed game mechanics and that they are completely imbalanced as a game mechanic, and that they could/should be more balanced. Where you get "fine and dandy" is just me saying that I don't care whether they're in the game or not. There's no correlation to me caring if they're in the game or not to them being imbalanced.
Given exclusively your previous post, I fail to understand why you care enough to even discuss the topic at such length.
The existing flawed mechanics will either eventually be fixed (Lava + wood) or may never see a fix (Water flow + odd blocks) due to their complexity. Either way, when the game finally exits Beta and is a complete package, there will undoubtedly be some form of grinder available as a result of the game's mechanics. May not be lava blade, or cactus, or drowning. They're here to stay in one form or another.
And finally, balance is irrelevant in a single-player sandbox game. In SMP the issue is exclusive to server admins policing their worlds, and players finding worlds with like-minded players to maximize their enjoyment. With the extraordinary diversity in gameplay styles this game allows, this is particularly critical.
I really have nothing more to add. Maybe later. I dunno.
There's no correlation to me caring if they're in the game or not to them being imbalanced.
I'm glad you got here.
Since you don't care for mob farms then why "fix" them ? Why hurt my fun of building them ? Why change the game mechanics to hurt them ?
Let's see, change game mechanics to remove farms and annoy everyone or leave them as they are and annoy no one ? Though choice huh.
BTW I agree they are overpowered, unbalanced and exploits, but I still like them and want them to stay as they are.
And finally, balance is irrelevant in a single-player sandbox game
Balanced game mechanics.
Quote from XMaulX »
I'm glad you got here.
Since you don't care for mob farms then why "fix" them ? Why hurt my fun of building them ? Why change the game mechanics to hurt them ?
I don't want to "fix" mob farms. They make no sense in their current form and need balancing if they are to stay in the game.
Let's see, change game mechanics to remove farms and annoy everyone or leave them as they are and annoy no one ? Though choice huh.
Change game mechanics that make sense to change from the big picture, not with mob grinders in mind. "You suggested those because of mob grinders." Yea, I know, but they would make sense even if mob grinders didn't exist.
BTW I agree they are overpowered, unbalanced and exploits, but I still like them and want them to stay as they are.
I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on the fact they are imbalanced exploits.
How do you suggest they become balanced?
*EDIT* Wow, I just realized that I have a block of non-transparent background in my avatar, and I've been using this thing for over a year now on various forums. Right between my goblin ponytail. That's stupid.
And stop talking about 'balance'. The only thing that matters is whether a game is fun or not. Can anyone explain how exactly someone making a mob farm in their game can possibly make your game less fun for you? If you can't, then you're basically suggesting that Notch should make the game less interesting for a significant portion of his customers, while not actually improving your gaming experience in any way. You don't sell a million copies of a game by making decisions like that.
I don't care about how much fun you're having and how unique Minecraft is. Mob traps are an exploit, cut and dry. I do enjoy reading how everyone rewords "Minecraft is a sandbox" "unique" "do what you want" "don't like it don't use it".
Regardless, it's an exploit and imbalanced, and it's likely that they will be changed due to other game mechanics changing or being added.
A game is supposed to be fun you know.
Also, a unique game nowadays, sells, a game that doesn't sell dies. So it's important to have unique characteristics too.
Mob traps may be an exploit but guess what, they're good for the game, they keep the game interesting removing the boredom of going out for resources.
A similar thing happened with Diablo 2, one the most successful games in history if not THE most successful. Mephisto and Baal runs and Countess runs, Cow level... I sure as hell didn't see Blizzard actually fixing these, because most people did it to get good items in this lifetime. IMO these "exploits" are probably what kept the game alive for so long.
Remove mob traps, in example by making what people suggested, removing mobs drops from environment kills, and a LOT of people will stop playing, I have enough chores in my real life to launch another game and have even more chores.
And yes, don't like it, don't use it, really. Make your own server and forbid everyone from building them if you must. Complaining about a game mechanic that's completely optional for you to use makes no sense.
Saying that other people aren't playing the game the way it's meant to be played is also no excuse, mob traps are fun to make and study, just for the sake of it, personally I like them more than building castles or such, they're actually harder to make and demand more time than a lot of other crap you see posted all around.
"Fix" mob traps and you effectively make no change to the gameplay of the few who don't like them, on the other hand a lot of other people will just get disappointed, so, what is the benefit ?
Everything else you posted was a waste of time, both because it's been said a hundred times already and because it's not relevant to reply to what I was saying with that.
It being an exploit is the only thing I'm here for.
Fixing, fun, and uniqueness are all irrelevant to what I'm saying.
Ok then, so it's an exploit, so what ?
It's good as is and must stay as is.
The only reason I find it acceptable if its tied into a trap or moat of a structure.
Nothing, just that they are an exploit and they're likely to change.
I'm thankful that you understand where I'm coming from, as everyone else just misinterprets what I say.
-modsnip-
Cool now I'd like you to see where I come from, an exploit isn't necessarily a bad thing, your suggestions all the way on the first page are pretty much killing mob farms, as I mentioned an example, "mobs not dropping items from environmental kills", will kill mob farms and really bring nothing (or in the case of some other ideas, very little) to the gameplay, except for the "different items dropping for players kills", all other ideas seem centered on hurting mob farms.
You wouldn't suggest these ideas if you didn't want to remove farms, you clearly don't like them, and when you suggest balance changes to hurt them, then say you have nothing against farms, makes no sense.
Disregarding what everyone else is saying by replying as you do only make you look like a troll.
Yes they are, they are all reasons on why mob farms are important and should stay, they are all reasons why your ideas shouldn't be implemented since your ideas would hurt the farms.
What you suggest, that the game is subject to change and coincidently that can hurt farms, well, then these changes should be avoided as much as possible, farms should stay as much as possible, they're one more thing to build if you want. It's not like the items that you get are that important anyway, AFAIK no mob drop diamonds/iron.
Again I'll use Diablo 2 as example, do you think that people would like it if blizzard decided that mephisto should no longer drop items ? It was certainly an exploit and was left alone. Same rule goes for mob farms in minecraft, leave them as they are and don't make changes that might hurt them, unless these changes actually make a lot of sense, like I can agree that lava should burn all wooden stuff (signs, ladders) and should go down.
I've built farms and studied them ever since I got this game, guess how many times I actually bothered using the items ? Zero. I'm a new player to this game and I'm still finding a lot of fun only with farms. They're much cooler to build than static castles :tongue.gif:
You can either make mob traps, or not. If you do, you can either learn to do it through experimentation, finding the best design, or you could read a tutorial. You could watch a tutorial on YouTube.
You could just watch YouTube videos instead of playing Minecraft.
I vote not to take choices away from players.
i don't think it's really an exploit or cheat. unless you're actually hacking in mob spawners. just making a little trap in your house or in a dungeon is fine.
1)Removing mob traps makes TNT useless
2)Unlimited return/finite investment argument is fallacious.
I'm a cannon designer. I and many other people have spent many hours and a great deal of ingenuity building TNT cannons and it's amazing what we've come up with, you should check it out if you get a chance! Now cannons are pretty expensive in terms of TNT, a single shot of a cannon that is powerful enough to be worthwhile uses 7+ TNT, and the whole point of a cannon is to have something you can fire many times. The only legit way to get this quantity of TNT is through using mob farms. The other uses of TNT also require quantity to be worthwhile so you could say that the game would be unbalanced if there was no way to acquire lots of TNT, since this would make a block useless.
So I would first say that any fix to mob farms that makes it impossible to acquire large amounts of TNT is worse than no fix at all. I would be willing to accept it if some other method was introduced to farm sulphur (and lets be plain, "farming" is required), but it's hard to see what this method could be. Anything else would destroy one of the most inventive and amazing MC communities.
Secondly I hear this argument that once you have your mob farm up and running you can get an infinite amount of resource X and thus means mob farms are unbalanced since you are getting infinite reward for finite cost. This argument is mistaken because it does not take into account diminishing returns. The 50th stack of arrows a player gets from a mob trap is worthless, and the VALUE returned is finite and limited to what the player can actually use. So you have a finite investment and a finite return.
Is this investment/return ratio unbalanced? It's a matter of opinion, but its worth pointing out mob trap is a huge investment, not just in construction/cavern clearing time but in the time and initiative it takes to look up how to construct it, which indeed puts it out of the reach of a majority of players. It is many times more expensive than any of the other purely material investments you can make, which is presumably what the devs have balanced the game around. This tends to make me think that it is not in fact unbalanced.
Booster are a glitch, and people using them is the exploit.
It's funny how people keep coming back with replies about morality and good vs bad, seeing as these two things are irrelevant.
You're still exploiting a poorly optimized spawning algorithm and dumb AI.
I hate that everyone thinks I'm trolling, because I'm definitely not. Either that, or I'm the most persistent troll this board has seen in a while. I don't know. Whatever you want to call me is fine.
I'm not gonna bother writing individual replies because nothing new has come up in the defense of mob traps yet.
-I'm not forcing anything on you. Play the game how you want it.
-I don't hate mob traps. Yes, I posted suggestions that were provoked by the discussion, but they're decent suggestions that flow with the rest of the game. Yes they'll probably force you to find a new way to work your mob traps.
-I don't care if mob traps are fixed. I don't know if I can actually say this enough. I don't care if mob traps are fixed. They don't affect me at all. I don't care if mob traps are fixed.
-I'm not forcing anything on you.
-I don't care if mob traps are fixed.
-I don't hate mob traps.
-I'm not trying to spoil your fun.
Stuff for you:
-e-yelling at me is dumb on your part.
-e-insulting me is, too.
-rewording the same old arguments isn't working in your favor. Apparently reworking my replies isn't effective either.
-"/thread" and "this is a stupid discussion" and "why is this still here" are just spamming the thread. Plus you're helping to keep the thread alive, which apparently isn't want you want. Thanks for contributing to the cause though.
-Nobody cares what I think. Does that mean I'll stop sharing it with you? Not as long as people keep playing that broken record.
-I really don't have any problems with 80% of the posters.
So how about we stop talking about exploiting for a few pages here and talk about mob traps being overpowered or underpowered or whatever it was you voted in the poll. It seems like any time the word exploit is mentioned, it's just a bunch of "Nuh-uh, sandbox". Sure you can say the same to me, that all I'm saying is "Yes, it's an exploit." Feel free to add your own internet lingo and misspellings and grammar mistakes to make me look dumb while you're at it. It won't be the first time.
So are mob traps overpowered? Definitely. You simply get too many items for free, with no effort to receive said items. "Everything is free, everything is infinite, blah blah." I know your argument already, I've already heard it. Sure, all the items are infinite, but can you get an effectively infinite supply of mob drops in the same time you can from a mob grinder? Any time you run out of arrows, just go sit in your mob trap while you browse the forum or walk your dog. Come back and look! 3 stacks of arrows, 2 and a half stacks of bonemeal, a stack of sulfur and a bunch of feathers and strings! Magically! How much effort and time did you just put into getting those items? None.
"Tree farms can be AFK'd, etc" Yep, they can. But do you get your logs automatically? Do the trees fall over onto a row of axes that chops them up into logs and deliver them to your inventory? No, because you have to actually do something to get those trees you just AFK'd. You have to put effort and time in. "Cutting down trees hardly takes any time." But it took time, whereas sitting at the end of a water current gathering items took none.
"What about cactus farms? Surely those are evil and you should hate those, too." Well, I don't hate them, but that doesn't make them not an exploit. Pretty sure the premise behind a cactus is that it can't grow adjacent to anything. Instead of checking where the next cactus block up will go, the growth function/algorithm spawns the new cactus and then checks if it's adjacent to any blocks. Taking advantage of this is, in fact, exploitative. No, automatic cactus farms aren't as useful as mob farms, but it's the same premise.
"So what about dirt.. you can use dirt to blah blah so it's overpowered blah blah." Yea, that thread already got locked for being a mockfest.
Now go ahead and pick apart my post and misquote me, because it's bound to happen.
Um...that is exactly the point of this discussion - whether mob farms are "unbalanced" or "exploitive," and the nature of the game itself as a sandbox all but negates these concepts to begin with. The fact that you constantly refuse to respond to what you clearly cannot dissect logically or morally is all the proof necessary to determine that you don't have an argument to speak of.
Here's a basic fact of interpersonal communication: It is your responsibility to ensure your message is conveyed clearly.
In one message you say you're fine with them and they can stay:
while in another you say they're clearly overpowered and should be nerfed:
You support measures suggested for the sole purpose of nerfing mob farms:
...despite their potential detrimental consequences regarding core game mechanics. And then you whine when people argue with your position. No one is "misinterpreting" what you say, you just suck at saying what you mean in a clear and concise manner.
Morality again. Sandbox means play how you want. Right, I understand that. Sandbox does not mean that you're not exploiting game mechanics when you are.
I am perfectly fine for them to stay in the game. In fact, I just posted that.
Before you misquote me, read the rest of what you quoted, and pay attention to the context:
"For the record, I voted for nerfed/balanced". So instead of realizing that those aren't even the poll options anymore, you misquote me. The poll was unfairly biased and the only option for me to choose was nerf/balance. I want balanced, not nerfed. Now that the poll is less biased, I chose Overpowered.
So next time don't pick and choose what you want to quote me on when balanced is right next to nerfed, and you're talking out of context.
The only thing detrimental about my suggestions was mobs not dropping items on environmental deaths. The other suggestions have no chance of negatively impacting the game other than making it harder or stopping people from designing mob traps the way they're designed now.
So, you misinterpret what I say, and decide to misquote me to prove your point.
I don't know why people care. I for one, don't.
You have yet to explain how "exploiting" (meaning "to use to your best ability") game mechanics is detrimental. That's what you're ****ing supposed to do.
I had no idea the poll options had changed. Regardless, "nerfed/balanced" means the same thing as "overpowered," as far as the poll's intent is concerned. If you think grinders need to be balanced, you clearly believe them to be overpowered.
Now, let's ignore that item, and take a look at your personal attack laced into your deflection. How the hell could I "misquote" you when I used Ctrl+C and Ctrl+F? You accuse me of "quoting you out of centext" when the context is self evident. Explain what "context" is absent in the quotes. I showed clear examples of you making contradictory statements.
No mob drops from environmental deaths is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders.
Changing water flow mechanics to not push mobs and/or items (As was suggested before and could be the only thing you mean when including it as a suggestion) is exclusive to the idea of killing grinders, and would negatively impact other aspects of the game.
The only suggestion on the list that makes any sense whatsoever outside of attempts to kill mob farms is lava burning signs/ladders. That's just a material consistency issue.
If Notch could fix water flow in and around the odd blocks, that too would have an effect on the functioning of grinders but wouldn't outright kill the concept and again, is an issue of material consistency. Unfortunately from the way it sounded he hasn't put much effort into trying to fix that, or it would be extraordinarily difficult.
Absolutely not. And you didn't even respond to the core of my post, which is that you're talking out both sides of your mouth. You keep saying "oh I'm ok with them!" but simultaneously suggest they need to be "rebalanced" (Synonymous for "nerfed," because you mean "downgraded") and offer up suggestions exclusively contrived for said "rebalancing."
Really, the only mechanical issues relevant to grinders that need to be addressed are wooden items burning and water flow over oddly shaped blocks. That's it. Grinders themselves, as has been pointed out repeatedly and, as usual with what you can't argue against, summarily dismissed as "irrelevant," are not in any way out of balance. They provide a steady stream of items that you're going to have a surplus of anyway no matter how you play. The only exception is sulfur, which is useless in small quantities, and cannot be obtained in mass quantities through any other means whatsoever.
So, in conclusion:
1. Explain the "context" I quoted you out of.
2. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced when they provide exactly one unique drop that is only useful in large quantities, and all other drops are likely to get tossed into the incinerator.
3. Explain how you can argue that grinders are unbalanced, while simultaneously claiming that they're just fine and dandy.
2. Grinders are imbalanced in comparison to the rest of the game mechanics. If you play on a world long enough, you'll run out of your "finite supply" and what do you do then? Go back to your grinder and AFK some more "finite" loot. It's odd that you can infinitely gather such finite loot..
3. Again, you misunderstand. I argue that mob grinders are exploiting flawed game mechanics and that they are completely imbalanced as a game mechanic, and that they could/should be more balanced. Where you get "fine and dandy" is just me saying that I don't care whether they're in the game or not. There's no correlation to me caring if they're in the game or not to them being imbalanced.
Given exclusively your previous post, I fail to understand why you care enough to even discuss the topic at such length.
The existing flawed mechanics will either eventually be fixed (Lava + wood) or may never see a fix (Water flow + odd blocks) due to their complexity. Either way, when the game finally exits Beta and is a complete package, there will undoubtedly be some form of grinder available as a result of the game's mechanics. May not be lava blade, or cactus, or drowning. They're here to stay in one form or another.
And finally, balance is irrelevant in a single-player sandbox game. In SMP the issue is exclusive to server admins policing their worlds, and players finding worlds with like-minded players to maximize their enjoyment. With the extraordinary diversity in gameplay styles this game allows, this is particularly critical.
I really have nothing more to add. Maybe later. I dunno.
I'm glad you got here.
Since you don't care for mob farms then why "fix" them ? Why hurt my fun of building them ? Why change the game mechanics to hurt them ?
Let's see, change game mechanics to remove farms and annoy everyone or leave them as they are and annoy no one ? Though choice huh.
BTW I agree they are overpowered, unbalanced and exploits, but I still like them and want them to stay as they are.
Balanced game mechanics.
I don't want to "fix" mob farms. They make no sense in their current form and need balancing if they are to stay in the game.
Change game mechanics that make sense to change from the big picture, not with mob grinders in mind. "You suggested those because of mob grinders." Yea, I know, but they would make sense even if mob grinders didn't exist.
I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on the fact they are imbalanced exploits.
How do you suggest they become balanced?
*EDIT* Wow, I just realized that I have a block of non-transparent background in my avatar, and I've been using this thing for over a year now on various forums. Right between my goblin ponytail. That's stupid.