I would really be irritated if all of the 1000's of torches I have put down would fizzle. This would change the game immensely. If it were an option, that would be okay.
Also, why would you make torches go out just to replace them with another light source that is permanent? Kind of counterproductive and a waste of time if you ask me. Adding something to make the game more rich (read any of the amazing ideas that this forum produces) would be much more enjoyable and would give so much more meaning to the game. My 2 cents.
My buddy and I were thinking about this yesterday. We both know it's not coming in 1.4 but we hypothesized that it would be feasible and not terribly burdensome to new players.
So let's say this is happening. As Notch and others have said, Lanterns will be a permanent lighting replacement for all current torches. New torches will eventually go out.
Some limitations:
*Until the Nether is officially functional in SMP, it's unlikely the Lantern would require glowstone in its crafting recipe.
*The Lantern will continue to be a placeable item, not a block, so that Lanterns replacing Torches in 1x2 mine shafts won't obstruct those shafts. The same can be said for Torches' ability to support sand, water, and lava. Although it's a quirk of the physics of the game, for now it's best to preserve that functionality.
*Torches will most probably simply disappear when they expire, instead of remain in place but extinguished, waiting to be re-lit. Why? Because you can't see them to relight them. Also consider how much lost time is involved in relighting Torches everywhere you've been. It's much simpler and time-saving to simply clear them away and let the player place new Torches as needed in his immediate work area.
*Torches need to last long enough for players to gather more supplies to replace them. One minecraft day is the practical minimum lifespan of a Torch under the new system. This means you can survive at least one full day before you have to have wood + coal and make new torches.
*Torches under the new system will not gain a health bar. Items and blocks with health bars are not stackable (or not ordinarily stackable). This would greatly reduce the functionality of Torches. For the same reason, you could no longer retrieve them. To do so might reset the consumption timer on the Torch so that it "forgets" that it was burning all night. This does represent a loss of function but perhaps not a large one, if permanent lighting is relatively easy to set up and/or Torches have a long lifespan.
BEST OPPORTUNITY COST FOR LANTERN - REDSTONE
From this we decided that a permanent Lantern would need to be readily craftable using materials available to the player at or near the time most of his torches started to go out. But what? It should be something ubiquitous, available, but only with some time and effort. It should be simple so that players can craft Lanterns in the field. It should also make some sense in the context of the 3x3 grid, and how Lanterns differ from Torches in real life.
We ran through a number of ideas and came up with a Lantern composed of glass, wood or iron, and redstone.
Why redstone? It's found in relative abundance, but only below a certain level. You have to mine in earnest before you can access it. It's also of limited use to players who are not building circuits or rail systems; the Lantern would revitalize interest in gathering redstone. Lastly, it makes sense - real life durable lights use electricity, which is a game function of redstone.
THE BEST TRANSITION FROM TORCH TO LANTERN
So how does this tie in with Torches? Well, for one thing, it helps determine what's the best lifespan for Torches under the new system. In brief, a Torch ideally should last about as long as it takes the average player to reach redstone level in his mining operations. If it turns out that it takes the average player 1 week to mine down to redstone, then a torch should last about that long. Maybe a bit shorter so the player is aware he will need to find a permanent solution to lighting fairly soon.
But not all players are "average" players. Some never go below the surface at all, instead content to grow wheat and cacti and trees, and build treehouses and make torches from charcoal. It may be a month or two before they go underground. Other players begin their first night spelunking and may even collect redstone on their first day. Nobody plays the same Minecraft, so to speak. So how to decide when to snuff the Torch?
You want it to last long enough to give the newbie time to get oriented, figure the world out, etc. However, you do NOT want torches to last so long that the unaware player will spend 2 weeks building a mansion, wheat farm, mining operation, etc. lit up by hundreds of torches, and they all start to wink out of a sudden and he can't keep up. You actually want torches to start sputtering out BEFORE a player has a chance to build a very large amount of stuff. So he will be motivated to think of solutions when the problem is still a small one.
Therein hangs the balance. It's pretty clear by day 3 or 4 what you need to do to not just survive, but thrive in survival Minecraft. You may not have any redstone at the moment, but you can make new Torches and try to keep things lit temporarily until you can find some. It means the player who might otherwise remain content to farm the surface must plan some mining or spelunking of some sort. Or if they are on multiplayer, arrange to trade surface resources like wood and wheat and sugarcane for redstone or finished lanterns.
WIRING OR NO?
So should a redstone Lantern require a wiring system? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. It would be nice to say No and allow players to use them as liberally as they use Torches now. But it is not intuitive. The difficulty is how to place redstone wiring on the wall, where most people put Torches now. Perhaps a change to Redstone Wire placement is in order to allow you to mount and run wiring along the walls and ceiling. The obvious downside is, all the pre-existing Torches in Minecraft worlds everywhere currently do not have wiring! They would go out anyway! Which defeats the purpose of making this special exception for pre-existing Torches.
STACKABLE?
Finally, should Lanterns stack? I think they should. After all, you can carry a pack of light bulbs or LEDs with you. Perhaps you can't carry more than a few Coleman lanterns with you. Or glass-enclosed old-fashioned streetlamps. It's more reasonable to have them stack in a limited way (say 16) than not at all, because some applications you do need plenty of lanterns, e.g. lighting a long subway tunnel.
Notch wanted to replace all placed torches with lanterns (so that you don't whine and complain), and make all future placed torches burn out within a time frame. He also wanted them to be re-ignitable via F&S.
I don't really like the idea honestly, especially how lanterns will apparently require glowstone and I only really play SMP in which you can't enter the nether...
I do not think torches should die. They serve as the main light source for most buildings and caves. However I do support the idea of your player being able to carry, or place a lantern instead of placing a lantern every 2-3 blocks.
It's the worst idea that Notch ever came up with IMHO, to be honest. There's a reason (or five) why he hasn't bothered with this yet. If he implements this, no one will use torches again beyond the first few days in a new world. Doesn't matter how long they'd last. Everyone would use whatever the permanent lanterns would be as soon as they could, because those would be more efficient. No one would want to go around relighting torches.
Whoever would make the torch mod that turns them back to how they are now would have the most used mod ever though. That'd be the only advantage. That, and those who make texture packs turning lanterns back into at least looking like torches. :oP
before you rage let me explain.
you put torches everywhere you go, in every cave, down every mine, and suddenly there are no mobs, you have to make dark towers just to get the drops you want, and you also lose the fun of going on mob hunts.
but there is also the whole "I put those torches on the side of the mountain or high on that wall so they would look good, and it would be a pain to have to go back and relight them"
well if you took the time to put the torches up there then you can take the time to make some lanterns.
plus having to relight torches could create jobs on RP servers,like lamplighters, could be fun.
i think that you should have the option to turn the torch-turney-offey thing off or on, so early on you could have it off to build yourself up, and then you could turn it on when you get lanterns.
It requires the player to re-light or replace torches (however it will work), which is time taken away from actually building anything. In any but the best circumstances, the player will have to spend time fighting mobs out of their own base or mine passage before they can use them if they spent any significant amount of time away from them.
This.
I have limited time to play and if I have to spend a chunk of it re-lighting/replacing torches just because... That's less time spent playing.
Thirded. I go through a lot of torches. Having a cheap, permanent light source allows me to focus on playing in the sandbox. It's a convenience that more people would miss than may realize it. I wouldn't want to be forced to go to the Nether for glowstone or netherrack for permanent light either.
While I'm all for increasing difficulty, I don't think torches should die on peaceful.
That said, I don't think it would really add that much difficulty at all. It would just add tedious grind, where you have to sweep through your base and relight all of your torches every few ingame weeks. That doesn't sound hard. It doesn't even sound fun. It just sounds irritating.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I would really like in 1.7 is to log on to the forum and not see a wall of 'OMG u BroKe 'XXX' I hatezx U' _Zenity
I don't like the idea of torches dying. It would be just annoying and wouldn't make the gameplay any better.
And gameplay is the only part minecraft can brag about (other have graphics, music, plot, etc.).
But IF it gets implemented, it should be a separate option. You want it? Turn it on by clicking on the box and typing the duration in MC days.
Neither of the poll options reflect how I feel on the subject.
Without citing a source, I want to point out that Notch has laid out his design plan for the game by saying that he will eventually implement "realism" sliders. If the game is set to minimum realism, it will be essentially creative mode (place, remove any block instantly; no mobs; no damage). If the game is set to maximum realism, there will be many characteristics of gameplay that provide a survival aspect. Many of these characteristics have already been implemented, such as health, fall damage, enemy mobs, difficulty with acquiring certain blocks, etc. Several more of these characteristics have yet to be implemented, such as hunger and the burning-out of torches. What we should be arguing, then, is what impact temporary torches would have on the game from a survivability standpoint, and where this should be on the spectrum of realism.
Like many have said, torches dying would be annoying. More specific than that, this would be dangerous. At least two posters have referred to the fact that this would rob them of the safe feeling they have in established areas such as bases and mines, and I think that this could be an excellent quality in Minecraft. One of the greatest achievements of Minecraft as a game is its often terrifying environment. Additionally, it's a great design choice to require something to be maintained in order to fight against waning interest in the game. After too long, a player might become bored in his usual routine since there is no variation and no challenge; temporary torches solve both of these problems.
I think that the idea of a lantern element have since been abandoned due to a general community backlash. This is a shame because, like I pointed out above, I think that most of the outrage is due to a misconception as to the implementation of the "feature" and of the general design philosophy that Notch has chosen. I am not so optimistic as to say that this thread nor any amount of campaigning could reverse this decision, but hopefully after careful and thoughtful discussion, we can convince several people that lanterns wouldn't be the worst addition to Minecraft.
When this idea was originally tossed around I was all for it, but now it's just another one of those things where I think it's ok if they add it, as long as there is a way to not have it enabled. I don't want to have to worry about reigniting my torches, I play Minecraft for the sandbox qualities of it and not for the survivalist qualities.
Well said. I agree. This is why we need a seperate survival mode and a building mode. Forget peaceful and just have normal and hard for the survival.
I don't like the idea of torches dying. It would be just annoying and wouldn't make the gameplay any better.
And gameplay is the only part minecraft can brag about (other have graphics, music, plot, etc.).
But IF it gets implemented, it should be a separate option. You want it? Turn it on by clicking on the box and typing the duration in MC days.
Finite torches: [] Duration in days: X
I've seen several people make nearly this exact post. I don't think that this solution is at all consistent with the design philosophy of Minecraft up to this point; Notch wants to create as consistent an experience as possible for each player. The only options available that effect gameplay in any way are the standard "difficulty" levels that every game has. One of the main reasons that I don't think that Notch will implement lanterns in the way that you and others suggest is that communication about achievements (which are soon to be implemented!) becomes more difficult the more options you have. "So you built the entire stadium yourself? What difficulty were you on? What was your torch duration? Did you use InvEdit? [etc.]" Also, given the choice to make torches die or not, with no apparent benefit to choosing the former, I'm not sure that many players would take advantage of this feature.
The way that I have interpreted Notch's design philosophy is that he is going to have a realism slider so that there are a certain number of options; for example, a 1 on the slider would be Creative mode, and a 9 would involve every Survival mechanic. This way, experiences in SSP could be easily communicated ("I was playing on realism 7 when... "), and it would be easy to identify servers which provide the gaming experience that you are looking for. There are some disadvantages to this system, namely that this would rob the player of the ability to individually pick from the various survival features, but I suspect that this would be available for more hardcore players (such as those who post on this forum) via mods.
Also, why would you make torches go out just to replace them with another light source that is permanent? Kind of counterproductive and a waste of time if you ask me. Adding something to make the game more rich (read any of the amazing ideas that this forum produces) would be much more enjoyable and would give so much more meaning to the game. My 2 cents.
(In a nutshell, sorry I dont have time I will go to bed now bye)
So let's say this is happening. As Notch and others have said, Lanterns will be a permanent lighting replacement for all current torches. New torches will eventually go out.
Some limitations:
*Until the Nether is officially functional in SMP, it's unlikely the Lantern would require glowstone in its crafting recipe.
*The Lantern will continue to be a placeable item, not a block, so that Lanterns replacing Torches in 1x2 mine shafts won't obstruct those shafts. The same can be said for Torches' ability to support sand, water, and lava. Although it's a quirk of the physics of the game, for now it's best to preserve that functionality.
*Torches will most probably simply disappear when they expire, instead of remain in place but extinguished, waiting to be re-lit. Why? Because you can't see them to relight them. Also consider how much lost time is involved in relighting Torches everywhere you've been. It's much simpler and time-saving to simply clear them away and let the player place new Torches as needed in his immediate work area.
*Torches need to last long enough for players to gather more supplies to replace them. One minecraft day is the practical minimum lifespan of a Torch under the new system. This means you can survive at least one full day before you have to have wood + coal and make new torches.
*Torches under the new system will not gain a health bar. Items and blocks with health bars are not stackable (or not ordinarily stackable). This would greatly reduce the functionality of Torches. For the same reason, you could no longer retrieve them. To do so might reset the consumption timer on the Torch so that it "forgets" that it was burning all night. This does represent a loss of function but perhaps not a large one, if permanent lighting is relatively easy to set up and/or Torches have a long lifespan.
BEST OPPORTUNITY COST FOR LANTERN - REDSTONE
From this we decided that a permanent Lantern would need to be readily craftable using materials available to the player at or near the time most of his torches started to go out. But what? It should be something ubiquitous, available, but only with some time and effort. It should be simple so that players can craft Lanterns in the field. It should also make some sense in the context of the 3x3 grid, and how Lanterns differ from Torches in real life.
We ran through a number of ideas and came up with a Lantern composed of glass, wood or iron, and redstone.
Why redstone? It's found in relative abundance, but only below a certain level. You have to mine in earnest before you can access it. It's also of limited use to players who are not building circuits or rail systems; the Lantern would revitalize interest in gathering redstone. Lastly, it makes sense - real life durable lights use electricity, which is a game function of redstone.
THE BEST TRANSITION FROM TORCH TO LANTERN
So how does this tie in with Torches? Well, for one thing, it helps determine what's the best lifespan for Torches under the new system. In brief, a Torch ideally should last about as long as it takes the average player to reach redstone level in his mining operations. If it turns out that it takes the average player 1 week to mine down to redstone, then a torch should last about that long. Maybe a bit shorter so the player is aware he will need to find a permanent solution to lighting fairly soon.
But not all players are "average" players. Some never go below the surface at all, instead content to grow wheat and cacti and trees, and build treehouses and make torches from charcoal. It may be a month or two before they go underground. Other players begin their first night spelunking and may even collect redstone on their first day. Nobody plays the same Minecraft, so to speak. So how to decide when to snuff the Torch?
You want it to last long enough to give the newbie time to get oriented, figure the world out, etc. However, you do NOT want torches to last so long that the unaware player will spend 2 weeks building a mansion, wheat farm, mining operation, etc. lit up by hundreds of torches, and they all start to wink out of a sudden and he can't keep up. You actually want torches to start sputtering out BEFORE a player has a chance to build a very large amount of stuff. So he will be motivated to think of solutions when the problem is still a small one.
Therein hangs the balance. It's pretty clear by day 3 or 4 what you need to do to not just survive, but thrive in survival Minecraft. You may not have any redstone at the moment, but you can make new Torches and try to keep things lit temporarily until you can find some. It means the player who might otherwise remain content to farm the surface must plan some mining or spelunking of some sort. Or if they are on multiplayer, arrange to trade surface resources like wood and wheat and sugarcane for redstone or finished lanterns.
WIRING OR NO?
So should a redstone Lantern require a wiring system? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. It would be nice to say No and allow players to use them as liberally as they use Torches now. But it is not intuitive. The difficulty is how to place redstone wiring on the wall, where most people put Torches now. Perhaps a change to Redstone Wire placement is in order to allow you to mount and run wiring along the walls and ceiling. The obvious downside is, all the pre-existing Torches in Minecraft worlds everywhere currently do not have wiring! They would go out anyway! Which defeats the purpose of making this special exception for pre-existing Torches.
STACKABLE?
Finally, should Lanterns stack? I think they should. After all, you can carry a pack of light bulbs or LEDs with you. Perhaps you can't carry more than a few Coleman lanterns with you. Or glass-enclosed old-fashioned streetlamps. It's more reasonable to have them stack in a limited way (say 16) than not at all, because some applications you do need plenty of lanterns, e.g. lighting a long subway tunnel.
A proposed recipe:
[] []
[] []
where = 1 redstone dust.
tl;dr what do you think?
Glowstone for the one good light source?
It takes forever to get the resources for a nether gate, and it's dangerous to get the glowstone there.
How about a setting? The setting would let you turn torch dying on or off.
There's yet more to come!
Check it out, give me feedback.
Like diamonds!... oh wait
viewtopic.php?f=1034&t=237167
My mods: viewtopic.php?f=1032&t=236778&p
Whoever would make the torch mod that turns them back to how they are now would have the most used mod ever though. That'd be the only advantage. That, and those who make texture packs turning lanterns back into at least looking like torches. :oP
My humble LPs can be found here.
before you rage let me explain.
you put torches everywhere you go, in every cave, down every mine, and suddenly there are no mobs, you have to make dark towers just to get the drops you want, and you also lose the fun of going on mob hunts.
but there is also the whole "I put those torches on the side of the mountain or high on that wall so they would look good, and it would be a pain to have to go back and relight them"
well if you took the time to put the torches up there then you can take the time to make some lanterns.
plus having to relight torches could create jobs on RP servers,like lamplighters, could be fun.
i think that you should have the option to turn the torch-turney-offey thing off or on, so early on you could have it off to build yourself up, and then you could turn it on when you get lanterns.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Thirded. I go through a lot of torches. Having a cheap, permanent light source allows me to focus on playing in the sandbox. It's a convenience that more people would miss than may realize it. I wouldn't want to be forced to go to the Nether for glowstone or netherrack for permanent light either.
That said, I don't think it would really add that much difficulty at all. It would just add tedious grind, where you have to sweep through your base and relight all of your torches every few ingame weeks. That doesn't sound hard. It doesn't even sound fun. It just sounds irritating.
And gameplay is the only part minecraft can brag about (other have graphics, music, plot, etc.).
But IF it gets implemented, it should be a separate option. You want it? Turn it on by clicking on the box and typing the duration in MC days.
Finite torches: [] Duration in days: X
Without citing a source, I want to point out that Notch has laid out his design plan for the game by saying that he will eventually implement "realism" sliders. If the game is set to minimum realism, it will be essentially creative mode (place, remove any block instantly; no mobs; no damage). If the game is set to maximum realism, there will be many characteristics of gameplay that provide a survival aspect. Many of these characteristics have already been implemented, such as health, fall damage, enemy mobs, difficulty with acquiring certain blocks, etc. Several more of these characteristics have yet to be implemented, such as hunger and the burning-out of torches. What we should be arguing, then, is what impact temporary torches would have on the game from a survivability standpoint, and where this should be on the spectrum of realism.
Like many have said, torches dying would be annoying. More specific than that, this would be dangerous. At least two posters have referred to the fact that this would rob them of the safe feeling they have in established areas such as bases and mines, and I think that this could be an excellent quality in Minecraft. One of the greatest achievements of Minecraft as a game is its often terrifying environment. Additionally, it's a great design choice to require something to be maintained in order to fight against waning interest in the game. After too long, a player might become bored in his usual routine since there is no variation and no challenge; temporary torches solve both of these problems.
I think that the idea of a lantern element have since been abandoned due to a general community backlash. This is a shame because, like I pointed out above, I think that most of the outrage is due to a misconception as to the implementation of the "feature" and of the general design philosophy that Notch has chosen. I am not so optimistic as to say that this thread nor any amount of campaigning could reverse this decision, but hopefully after careful and thoughtful discussion, we can convince several people that lanterns wouldn't be the worst addition to Minecraft.
Well said. I agree. This is why we need a seperate survival mode and a building mode. Forget peaceful and just have normal and hard for the survival.
I've seen several people make nearly this exact post. I don't think that this solution is at all consistent with the design philosophy of Minecraft up to this point; Notch wants to create as consistent an experience as possible for each player. The only options available that effect gameplay in any way are the standard "difficulty" levels that every game has. One of the main reasons that I don't think that Notch will implement lanterns in the way that you and others suggest is that communication about achievements (which are soon to be implemented!) becomes more difficult the more options you have. "So you built the entire stadium yourself? What difficulty were you on? What was your torch duration? Did you use InvEdit? [etc.]" Also, given the choice to make torches die or not, with no apparent benefit to choosing the former, I'm not sure that many players would take advantage of this feature.
The way that I have interpreted Notch's design philosophy is that he is going to have a realism slider so that there are a certain number of options; for example, a 1 on the slider would be Creative mode, and a 9 would involve every Survival mechanic. This way, experiences in SSP could be easily communicated ("I was playing on realism 7 when... "), and it would be easy to identify servers which provide the gaming experience that you are looking for. There are some disadvantages to this system, namely that this would rob the player of the ability to individually pick from the various survival features, but I suspect that this would be available for more hardcore players (such as those who post on this forum) via mods.