Without reading through the entire 19 pages (I've spent enough time on enough game forums that I'm familiar with all of the arguments, pro and con, over the fairly incessant demand by some that guns be added to just about every game that doesn't already have them), I'll only say this:
Quote from tons0phun »
I have seen comments saying that Notch has said "No" to guns.
I deeply and sincerely hope this is true and that, if true, he sticks to it.
There are already plenty of shooters on the market, so gun fetishists have plenty of options. I sincerely, and kindly, wish that they'd leave the rest of the games alone. Especially this one. Anyone who wants a pixelated shooter can play Doom.
@leaveittosteve Out of interest was your article in favour of guns or in opposition to them?
Favor
Quote from Arlo »
Without reading through the entire 19 pages (I've spent enough time on enough game forums that I'm familiar with all of the arguments, pro and con, over the fairly incessant demand by some that guns be added to just about every game that doesn't already have them), I'll only say this:
Quote from tons0phun »
I have seen comments saying that Notch has said "No" to guns.
I deeply and sincerely hope this is true and that, if true, he sticks to it.
There are already plenty of shooters on the market, so gun fetishists have plenty of options. I sincerely, and kindly, wish that they'd leave the rest of the games alone. Especially this one. Anyone who wants a pixelated shooter can play Doom.
Ok, but merely having guns doesn't make the game a shooter, just like how having swords doesn't make it an RPG. Was there some reason that you absolutely refuse to have guns in the game? People who are proponents of guns in Minecraft are not all "gun fetishists." I could own several guns if I wanted to right now and I do not, and I barely even play shooters anymore (last one I was big into was Raven Shield probably). You must surely admit that given the fact that the technology in Minecraft is essentially at a 19th century level (mine carts, coal burning engines, "electricity", TNT, diamond tools, etc.) that guns are not that implausible and would actually fit reasonably given the fact that hunting and defense are elements of the game and people used firearms for those purposes in the 19th century.
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"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Last time I checked in the market there wasn't a game with low tech, open worlds as big as that of 8x the size of the Earth, modularly produced worlds that are never the same, a level up system in tools, a set of awesome building and physics mechanics, a robust set of enemies, a creator/developer who's constantly updating while keeping in touch with his community, and old flint lock/ matchlock weaponry.
Because in Minecraft many complex things have already been done or are capable with the game engine that it makes people wonder why not an ancient gun that was made during the early Middle Ages and finally massly propegated and produced in the late Middleages.
It's as simple as that. Not only that but don't you find it illogical that in the minecraft world they have figured out to do explosives, trains, jukeboxes, electricity through alchemy all through magic and science, but for some reason making a tube that launches projectiles becomes NASA level Rocket science?
But yes let's please drop it, it's something pretty pointless to debate
Can I kindly request that people stop using this argument, why is the fact that guns would fit in, because of the time period, seen as sufficient justification for putting guns into the game? I'm currently undecided on whether to put guns in the game so I'm not just being anti-guns, but this argument is a very poor one. For one thing it could be used to justify any number of other items which would clearly be unsuited to Minecraft, and for another why do people seem to think that Minecraft's level of technological advancement should follow the same pattern as that of Earth? So can we please drop it.
I wasn't saying there ought to be guns because Minecraft parallels real life technological development 100%, I was just saying that it's not implausible for them to exist. As it is now, every item in the game is in there on virtue of its being plausible (since you must collect the resources to build them), but, if you must have other arguments, here are some that were in my huge post that got lost when I was logged out:
1. Firearms have a definite distinct use from bows (namely hunting and more precision shooting - with more precision shooting, flying units such as dragons and a variety of new gameplay elements become more available)
2. They'd add a greater variety of choices in weaponry to the game
3. Despite rumblings, they would not be unbalanced because they'd be very costly and difficult to make, not to mention that solid iron or diamond armor would be all but impenetrable to bullets
Combine all three points and there is a gameplay addition that not only adds depth, but does not make the game a shooter, and, on top of all this, IT IS PLAUSIBLE. In my big post I said it was up to Notch what direction he wants to take the game but he has many reasons to consider firearms, since they would not be any more unbalanced than anything else in the game, are plausible, could add complexity to how players and NPCs interact, and counter the more difficult enemies that are sure to come.
On the other hand, we could continue using stone age weaponry in a game where it's possible to build basic computers because some people are worried that it may have anything in common with all those yucky mainstream games (despite the numerous other elements that are already shared such as a numeral-based health system, armor, inventory, basic weaponry, etc.). The reasons for having firearms are more than the meager reasons for totally refusing them, unless it's just an artistic choice by Notch even after considering all these things.
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"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Erm, ... to be honest, a scope would make guns fun for me, but I think I risk being incredibly contradictory in saying that, as I earlier criticised suggestions thus far for them making guns seem overpowered, and a scop would make it ridiculously overpowered I think. But still, I think it would be awesome to be able to shoot things from a huge distance, like on top of a mountain or something.
Other than that, what about a type of ammunition that forced creepers to explode? Or perhaps a type that made spiders react as though in daylight? or one that made skeletons attack you with melee?
You probably shouldn't be concerned about firearms being overpowered, nor should anyone, even if they were semi-automatic, since basically everyone and their brother are equipped with armor that stands very little chance of being penetrated by something as inconsequential as a ~.32 caliber bullet (or lead ball, or shot, or whatever level of firearm is decided on). I'm of course talking about the diamond armor.
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"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Erm, ... to be honest, a scope would make guns fun for me, but I think I risk being incredibly contradictory in saying that, as I earlier criticised suggestions thus far for them making guns seem overpowered, and a scop would make it ridiculously overpowered I think. But still, I think it would be awesome to be able to shoot things from a huge distance, like on top of a mountain or something.
Not any worse than what would make guns fun for me.
As far as stylistic choice, there is not much you can do. the game doesn't nessarrliy need guns. but it would pretty cool if they were in there. If notch ever decides to put another ranged weapon in the game, i hope we saved Notch some time by making the stats already there.
Why do people think it would become a shooter? It wouldn't suddenly become Duke Nukem. People hear "guns" and they think a specific thing. You wouldn't be crafting freaking Thompsons and Kalashnikovs. We're talking about something like this...
It's a metal tube on a piece of wood. Just add a flint and iron with a simple mechanism. You can't run and gun with a muzzle loading, smoothbore, primitive firearm. If it takes ten seconds to load, the spiders will be on you long before you fire a second shot.
This is not a weapon that makes a game a shooter.
Quote from Wilks228 »
Another negative I have just thought of is that I think guns risk a reduction in the creative necessity of Minecraft. For example, I just spent about 3 hours or so collecting enough lava from a deep cave, in order to construct a gigantic lava moat in front of my main base, just to prevent skeletons from shooting me. If guns were in the game I think I probably would't have bothered, as it would have been all too easy to just shoot said skeletons. Thus in turn I think guns risk making the game more boring. Just a thought.
It would be no more difficult to shoot the skeletons with your bow. In fact, you'd have a longer range and cheaper ammunition with the bow. Why would you waste a wad of gunpowder, iron and paper on a skeleton?
I'd love to have this in the game. Ram down the load, squeeze the trigger. *snap* *sssssssssss* *boom* The powder burns in the pan for half a second. That moment would be sweet.
I should probably point out that I have never actually played the multiplayer aspect of the game ,and thus far have had no particular desire to; though I probably will when survival multiplayer becomes fully available. Therefore when I talk about my fears of the overpowered gun, I am more concerned about the drastic reduction in the difficulty of fights against Mobs, than being killed by other players.
Another negative I have just thought of is that I think guns risk a reduction in the creative necessity of Minecraft. For example, I just spent about 3 hours or so collecting enough lava from a deep cave, in order to construct a gigantic lava moat in front of my main base, just to prevent skeletons from shooting me. If guns were in the game I think I probably would't have bothered, as it would have been all too easy to just shoot said skeletons. Thus in turn I think guns risk making the game more boring. Just a thought.
Ok well just put in some slavering dragons or Lovecraftian hell monsters in the world and then it becomes more reasonable again to craft guns (and large defenses like those you describe)
Perhaps some monsters could even be impenetrable to firearms
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"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
My first thought is a flintlock makes far more sense. For one thing, the game has flint and steel, for another, this is a game about punching trees, then eventually punching rocks into furnaces, which you use to make powered carts, to run on tracks that you made from steel, that you baked in an oven from rocks popped from walls with a tool you created with your fists. If anything, the most consistent gun for this game is one made of diamonds and leather, which fires a rare dropped material from a nightmare creature you can only kill with fists. Oh, wait, gunpowder already comes from a nightmare creature, so we're almost there.
Besides, the arquebus is not Medieval, it's a Renaissance weapon, and the game is not Medieval, it has powered mine carts and magic record players.
The hand cannon is Mediveal, and it's nothing but a small tube, sometimes with a stick out the back to brace it or held in a thick leather glove, and touched off by a completely separate match. Well, there's your leather gun. That weapon would be next to useless in comparison to the bow, except in huge numbers. Realistically, guns are stupid, if you buy the Medieval game argument. I don't.
I think crafting a rifle should look like the below.
[] []
I like the idea of crafting the ammo into the weapon with each firing, since it does control the rate of fire. I think the loading should be in order of how the ammo would actually be loaded. Weapon, powder, wadding (fabric), bullet (stone). I feel stone is the closest we have to lead, since both get heated into form.
[>>-i>] = Rifle
[>>-i>]
There could also be cartridges, making the weapon fire like the bow and arrows.
= red dust
[] []
Wha!? I here you yodeling. There's no bronze, but gold looks right, and stone was explained above. Red dust is so we have something like primer, although sand would make sense in the context of the TNT. This ammo is very pricey, so you should get a stack of ammo for crafting this to offset the price. Maybe 8, or 16 rounds. Yes, you use it in the same gun as the loose ammo gun. Just repeat to yourself, "I punched a tree. Now it's diamonds. I'm on a pig."
Loose ammo should fire a lot flatter than arrows, but shouldn't be less precise, and should do single hit kills on most stuff to offset slowness. All the arguments for the gun being imprecise miss the point that bows and arrows are realistically horribly imprecise, too, unless you have a lifetime of experience. Guns are easier to learn to a competent degree. The cartridge ammo should fire flatter, thus longer distances in less time, and hit harder than loose ammo.
One disadvantage for the gun will be that you can't see how you missed, as you can with the arrow. That alone should favor relatively close range use until the arc is determined. The speed of the bullet doesn't have to be perfectly realistic, so it can have much more arcing than a real bullet.
The bullet shouldn't have a max range, except for view distance, it should be like the bow in that it's only limited by speed and player ability to compensate for the arc. Since the gun would be pricey and complex it should be over all better.
I would actually like to see magic bullets that have different effects on monsters and animals. Teleporting ammo anyone?
Yeh the way I was thinking is that there would be ammunition made of different materials, with stone being terrible, iron being okay, and diamond being excellent. Then there could be a toolkit for creating conical rounds (as well as cartridges) to increase damage/range at the cost of more resources.
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"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Yeh the way I was thinking is that there would be ammunition made of different materials, with stone being terrible, iron being okay, and diamond being excellent. Then there could be a toolkit for creating conical rounds (as well as cartridges) to increase damage/range at the cost of more resources.
Like making a bullet mold from steel, then crafting a bullet, then the bullet with a casing to create a complete round.
I thought of a decent limitation for guns against skeletons. Skeletons are mostly air, so maybe guns should have a natural chance to miss skeletons even when right on target? Arrows should have this too, but to a lesser degree. If zombies get anything, they should be somewhat resistant, needing two shots instead of one from a gun. Spiders should be jumpy enough to naturally avoid shots, but maybe they could have Spidey Sense so they know when they're being aimed at, but not where from. That applies to spiders no matter what you are, or are not holding. Just looking at them with the cross hairs centered should be enough to set off Spidey Sense.
I deeply and sincerely hope this is true and that, if true, he sticks to it.
There are already plenty of shooters on the market, so gun fetishists have plenty of options. I sincerely, and kindly, wish that they'd leave the rest of the games alone. Especially this one. Anyone who wants a pixelated shooter can play Doom.
Favor
Ok, but merely having guns doesn't make the game a shooter, just like how having swords doesn't make it an RPG. Was there some reason that you absolutely refuse to have guns in the game? People who are proponents of guns in Minecraft are not all "gun fetishists." I could own several guns if I wanted to right now and I do not, and I barely even play shooters anymore (last one I was big into was Raven Shield probably). You must surely admit that given the fact that the technology in Minecraft is essentially at a 19th century level (mine carts, coal burning engines, "electricity", TNT, diamond tools, etc.) that guns are not that implausible and would actually fit reasonably given the fact that hunting and defense are elements of the game and people used firearms for those purposes in the 19th century.
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Last time I checked in the market there wasn't a game with low tech, open worlds as big as that of 8x the size of the Earth, modularly produced worlds that are never the same, a level up system in tools, a set of awesome building and physics mechanics, a robust set of enemies, a creator/developer who's constantly updating while keeping in touch with his community, and old flint lock/ matchlock weaponry.
Mr Wilks. what would make guns fun for you if they were going to be added to minecraft?
Because in Minecraft many complex things have already been done or are capable with the game engine that it makes people wonder why not an ancient gun that was made during the early Middle Ages and finally massly propegated and produced in the late Middleages.
It's as simple as that. Not only that but don't you find it illogical that in the minecraft world they have figured out to do explosives, trains, jukeboxes, electricity through alchemy all through magic and science, but for some reason making a tube that launches projectiles becomes NASA level Rocket science?
But yes let's please drop it, it's something pretty pointless to debate
I wasn't saying there ought to be guns because Minecraft parallels real life technological development 100%, I was just saying that it's not implausible for them to exist. As it is now, every item in the game is in there on virtue of its being plausible (since you must collect the resources to build them), but, if you must have other arguments, here are some that were in my huge post that got lost when I was logged out:
1. Firearms have a definite distinct use from bows (namely hunting and more precision shooting - with more precision shooting, flying units such as dragons and a variety of new gameplay elements become more available)
2. They'd add a greater variety of choices in weaponry to the game
3. Despite rumblings, they would not be unbalanced because they'd be very costly and difficult to make, not to mention that solid iron or diamond armor would be all but impenetrable to bullets
Combine all three points and there is a gameplay addition that not only adds depth, but does not make the game a shooter, and, on top of all this, IT IS PLAUSIBLE. In my big post I said it was up to Notch what direction he wants to take the game but he has many reasons to consider firearms, since they would not be any more unbalanced than anything else in the game, are plausible, could add complexity to how players and NPCs interact, and counter the more difficult enemies that are sure to come.
On the other hand, we could continue using stone age weaponry in a game where it's possible to build basic computers because some people are worried that it may have anything in common with all those yucky mainstream games (despite the numerous other elements that are already shared such as a numeral-based health system, armor, inventory, basic weaponry, etc.). The reasons for having firearms are more than the meager reasons for totally refusing them, unless it's just an artistic choice by Notch even after considering all these things.
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
You probably shouldn't be concerned about firearms being overpowered, nor should anyone, even if they were semi-automatic, since basically everyone and their brother are equipped with armor that stands very little chance of being penetrated by something as inconsequential as a ~.32 caliber bullet (or lead ball, or shot, or whatever level of firearm is decided on). I'm of course talking about the diamond armor.
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Not any worse than what would make guns fun for me.
As far as stylistic choice, there is not much you can do. the game doesn't nessarrliy need guns. but it would pretty cool if they were in there. If notch ever decides to put another ranged weapon in the game, i hope we saved Notch some time by making the stats already there.
Why in the hell would anyone tacticool a flintlock?
What kind of world do we live in?
Also about stylistic choice, well Notch has alot from history to draw from
(pictures coming up in a few)
Edit: Those pictures were too big, but you guys got the point
Edit: I found a Knight using an Arquebus
Sure but you would've wasted alot of iron, and gunpowder
It's a metal tube on a piece of wood. Just add a flint and iron with a simple mechanism. You can't run and gun with a muzzle loading, smoothbore, primitive firearm. If it takes ten seconds to load, the spiders will be on you long before you fire a second shot.
This is not a weapon that makes a game a shooter.
It would be no more difficult to shoot the skeletons with your bow. In fact, you'd have a longer range and cheaper ammunition with the bow. Why would you waste a wad of gunpowder, iron and paper on a skeleton?
I'd love to have this in the game. Ram down the load, squeeze the trigger. *snap* *sssssssssss* *boom* The powder burns in the pan for half a second. That moment would be sweet.
Ok well just put in some slavering dragons or Lovecraftian hell monsters in the world and then it becomes more reasonable again to craft guns (and large defenses like those you describe)
Perhaps some monsters could even be impenetrable to firearms
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Besides, the arquebus is not Medieval, it's a Renaissance weapon, and the game is not Medieval, it has powered mine carts and magic record players.
The hand cannon is Mediveal, and it's nothing but a small tube, sometimes with a stick out the back to brace it or held in a thick leather glove, and touched off by a completely separate match. Well, there's your leather gun. That weapon would be next to useless in comparison to the bow, except in huge numbers. Realistically, guns are stupid, if you buy the Medieval game argument. I don't.
I think crafting a rifle should look like the below.
I like the idea of crafting the ammo into the weapon with each firing, since it does control the rate of fire. I think the loading should be in order of how the ammo would actually be loaded. Weapon, powder, wadding (fabric), bullet (stone). I feel stone is the closest we have to lead, since both get heated into form.
[>>-i>] = Rifle
[>>-i>]
There could also be cartridges, making the weapon fire like the bow and arrows.
Wha!? I here you yodeling. There's no bronze, but gold looks right, and stone was explained above. Red dust is so we have something like primer, although sand would make sense in the context of the TNT. This ammo is very pricey, so you should get a stack of ammo for crafting this to offset the price. Maybe 8, or 16 rounds. Yes, you use it in the same gun as the loose ammo gun. Just repeat to yourself, "I punched a tree. Now it's diamonds. I'm on a pig."
Loose ammo should fire a lot flatter than arrows, but shouldn't be less precise, and should do single hit kills on most stuff to offset slowness. All the arguments for the gun being imprecise miss the point that bows and arrows are realistically horribly imprecise, too, unless you have a lifetime of experience. Guns are easier to learn to a competent degree. The cartridge ammo should fire flatter, thus longer distances in less time, and hit harder than loose ammo.
One disadvantage for the gun will be that you can't see how you missed, as you can with the arrow. That alone should favor relatively close range use until the arc is determined. The speed of the bullet doesn't have to be perfectly realistic, so it can have much more arcing than a real bullet.
The bullet shouldn't have a max range, except for view distance, it should be like the bow in that it's only limited by speed and player ability to compensate for the arc. Since the gun would be pricey and complex it should be over all better.
I would actually like to see magic bullets that have different effects on monsters and animals. Teleporting ammo anyone?
that could add some interesting gameplay.
*humming to self* OW! what the hell was that!?!?!?!?
or they could live in villages. and you stumble across one...
i approve of this firearm, as it is balanced to the other weapons, though i would still like to see a cannon or crossbow before this.
"When we release a pure bugfix update, people get VERY upset ("NOTHING CHANGED!").. Adding features gives us much happier users. But I do realize that it's only happier users in the short term." - Notch
Like making a bullet mold from steel, then crafting a bullet, then the bullet with a casing to create a complete round.
If a Modder, or Notch himself were to recognize it, it'd be so sweet!
IDK but people have been modding the **** out of it dude, check out some of the mainstream ones in the wiki
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Client_mods
We also have the runecraft mod in the works and it being constantly updated