Notch isn't against guns because he feels they're out of place.
TnT is out of place among everything else in Minecraft, and yet it remains.
Notch isn't against guns because they're too broken.
TnT is more powerful than any force in Minecraft. It can kill any mob instantly (even players), it can level entire mountains in a matter of seconds, and it's easy to obtain.
Notch is against guns because of you, the players.
Because people make dumb complaints such as "But I don't want Minecraft to be a FPS"
-You already play Minecraft from first-person.
-You have projectile weapons to shoot.
Minecraft is an FPS. Albeit a creative FPS, but it is inarguably a first-person shooter.
"Oh, but it's not an FPS if I don't use bows and arrows"
Again, a dumb conclusion.
Go play any FPS game, and press 1.
This is typically the melee weapon. Now, hold down the mouse button.
Hmm, a hand-held item repeatedly being swung to kill enemies in the world.
No, I'm sure Minecraft shows no similarity to this.
Notch will not put in guns because of the hundreds of children/man-children that will BAWWWW and send him complaint letters saying he's broken the game, when the game is in fact broken in so many ways already.
Player-made TnT cannons that can shoot 300+ tiles, thus destroying anything or anybody withing range instantly and with great ease? Sure!
A single item (bucket) that can facilitate the creation of an infinitely-flowing spring of lava which severely burns anything organic in it's path, and is extremely easy to grief with? Yeah!
Carry 3 sets of diamond armor, 8 sets of diamond swords, and the remainder of the inventory full of mushroom soup: you're an unstoppable killing machine! But that's okay, because you've earned it.
A single gun where you can't move while firing, doesn't instantly kill anything, and requires you to craft for every shot as counterpart to an already-existing projectile weapon? WHOOOOA now buddy, that doesn't fit in the game at ALL, and in fact is extremely overpowered. If we put this in, the game will become counter-strike in a matter of hours!
I wouldn't mind it so much if Notch would at least justify/defend his reasoning with a logical argument, and not just "because I said so"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Professional Underwater Lava-miner.
Also a massive mushroom mongler.
All I was referring to was the original post, I don't believe I critiqued any other ideas. As for your massive rant... Wow, you sure do have a lot to say... And based entirely on speculation as well.
@Drury
No you obviously don't know what's being proposed here.
Seriously.
Please read a thread before critiquing
BTW this is what we're proposing
Recipe for an Arquebus
Flint and steel = Torch
[]
[] []
Simple recipe but still expensive
[] [] []
[] []
[] []
Stats The Arquebus would have 100% accuracy.
But bear with me before protesting this, and let's take a peek at our contestants side by side before passing judgment...
The OP has found that the average Minecraft character can sprint about 7 tiles in one second
The op also agreed to a carrying restriction to be implemented to the Arquebus to avoid it being fired multiple times.
I'm also going to point out this, this gun is not point and click, it is fused based, meaning after you click it takes 3 seconds to fire like the real thing
Tell me now, how is this weapon overpowered or underpowered?
Really, if anything it's an alternative way of approaching ranged combat, something that needs variation in this game along with melee combat.
All I was referring to was the original post, I don't believe I critiqued any other ideas. As for your massive rant... Wow, you sure do have a lot to say... And based entirely on speculation as well.
Yeah...I guess it just rubbed me the wrong way is all, when it shouldn't have.
Because even without guns, I can still have a lot of fun with Minecraft.
Still, I wish we could get a reasonable explanation for them being barred.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Professional Underwater Lava-miner.
Also a massive mushroom mongler.
Before we even get into guns arrows need to be gimped. Currently you can rapid-fire the bow and arrow like it was a machine gun. Thats pretty devastating and unrealistic.
The problem I see with a gun is that it would also be overpowered. Even with a reload timer (and I really like the first posts solution) theres nothing stopping someone from making an entire inventory of guns.
Solutions:
- Limit on how many guns one can hold in his inventory
- Make guns harder to craft
- Make guns take up more than 1 spot in the inventory
So with one or more of those solutions implemented theres still the issue of accuracy. Right now the bow and arrow is accurate to a T but because of its low power you have to compensate by arching the shot. With a gun I don't think there should be any arching involved but instead the accuracy should be horrible at long range. Like how early muskets were in real life.
I think guns can work just they need to be severely limited.
100% accuracy doesn't mean you always hit your target, it means it hits exactly where you aim.
None of that is hard to code, nor even time consuming.
Combat doesn't need variety so much as depth. Depth may include variety, but variety is not the real issue.
If you don't limit guns, they will be overpowering. The proposed arquebus is limited, but balanced. If guns are not limited, you end up with a glock, and that is overpowered. If you hit exactly where you aim at, there is no chance to dodge, and that is bad game design. If they have a high rate of fire, they are overpowering. If they reload without penalty, they become overpowering. If you think guns can work, but the proposed solutions are useless, show us a proposal that is balanced and fits the theme.
@Drury explain your reasoning, all your doing is screaming no "useless hard to code crap". How do you even know that hitscan is "hard to code crap"? How is it useless if at 32 blocks it can do 5 damage and it fires within 2-3 seconds? I think this is your bias and ego against firearms speaking not your reasoning skills. Also stop using adhominem please, threadshitting like that is against the rules BOYO.
@speedy shrimp
NVM we need to work on that from scratch. But either way if you read the stats it's not really op. It takes 2-3 seconds to fire, at a range of more than 35 blocks it's damage is the equivalent of a bow, it's ammo is not really easy to come around by if you have shitty luck and can't find creepers.
Something like this was proposed, I think we can work from that.
@Mystify, thanks bro, you might be a great foe, but you're one hell of an ally.
@ Drury They would not be useless with the limits i proposed. Right now I like the way arrows work as ranged weapons. If you want to shoot something far away you have to have the skill to lead and arch the shot. This is something snipers have to do in real life because of the distances they shoot at.
So, with the long range (for MC) weapon covered the gun will become the short to mid-range weapon. It will deal out a ton more damage but you have to be close.
@spartacuscat Oh I haven't read the whole thread. I'll read up on the proposed stats.
@speedy shrimp
Oh okay BTW I reposted them here on this page so don't venture off those other ones are old. That is unless you want to see how me an Mystify came to agree upon that thanks to the Op's intervention that is.
@Drury How will Minecraft become the wild west if what we're proposing is nothing compared to the might of the 30 30 Winchester repeater? Also who the hell proposed guns to explode? Not people proposing them, just people against them, no one wants to make them that intricate or complicated.
Also we already proved this gun is balanced. Not once have you refuted any of the stat's properties, Mystify's arguments, or mine.
Hell you even did an "implying implications" meme from /v/?
What the hell is up with that?
What's next?
You're going to start saying
>Implying I did that.
Edit: BTW the Arquebus was far from being as powerful as most modern rifles, you know nothing of what you're talking about by saying "Real guns" I already provided links showing their historical context and its contemporaries and variants during the mid Middle Ages and late Middle Ages.
None of that is hard to code, nor even time consuming.
I disagree. It would need much more models, more particles, more sounds, code that would freeze player while shooting (could be buggy), code to delay gun shots, code for everything else (like random explosions). Remember, it's the weakest weapon in game.
Any addition to the game requires models, but we get additions all the time. The need for a model is not a problem.
Particles are simple to code, esp. since he already has particles in-game
A couple of simple sounds is not much.
Code to freeze the player while shooting would be utterly simple. I doubt it would even take 5 minutes.
The idea did not include random explosions.
The proposed weapon is not the weakest in the game. You can only say that if you assume bows will never be fixed.
So we have what? A couple of models to add, and 5 minutes of code? Throw in a couple sounds? For an item that could see extensive use?
Quote from Drury »
Quote from Mystify »
Combat doesn't need variety so much as depth. Depth may include variety, but variety is not the real issue.
lolwut?
What is hard to understand? Combat should be expanded to have some depth to it(as in, Deep gameplay.) Variety can be a component of depth, but they are not synonymous.
Quote from Drury »
Quote from Mystify »
If you don't limit guns, they will be overpowering. The proposed arquebus is limited, but balanced. If guns are not limited, you end up with a glock, and that is overpowered. If you hit exactly where you aim at, there is no chance to dodge, and that is bad game design. If they have a high rate of fire, they are overpowering. If they reload without penalty, they become overpowering. If you think guns can work, but the proposed solutions are useless, show us a proposal that is balanced and fits the theme.
I know why you limit guns, you limit them because you know that if they'll be like all guns (real ones and videogame ones), they would become overpowered and overused. Then, Minecraft would turn into wild west-like game. And Notch don't approve that.
And yes, I forgot to say, it's impossible to balance guns. If they were too balanced, they would be too powerful - not too much (let's say, they would be just reskinned bows), but they would be useful. What if Notch says that they're too useful and thus they would be overused? Then your idea is scrapped. So you're proposing useless guns, just to see them in game.
So if they are unlimited, they are overpowered, but if you add limits, they are useless? There is no middle ground? I could argue that the bow is useless because some people could dodge arrows all day, and you have a limited supply of arrows. Or you could argue it is overpowered becuase it does damage at range, making swords useless. We spent most of this thread debating how to balance the weapon so that it is useful but not overpowered, and we achieved that. You are only immobilized for a short time when useing it, so you don't automatically become the pin cushion of the century. The enemy has a short enough time that they have a hard time dodging it, but a long enough time that it is possible to do so. It takes time in the crafting window to reload, but it is not something you are meant to reload in combat anyways. Present some actual arguments for why it can't be balanced, don't present a false dichotomy of "overpowered/useless" without any support.
You're wrong, the gun was setup so it can't be abused stats based, not just economics side.
Range 70 blocks total, but at more than 35 it loses the 5 damage it does and becomes the damage a Bow and Arrow does.
Firing rate is that of 2-3 seconds, and you can't follow your opponent while aiming. Keep in mind that a Minecraft character can cover about 7 blocks of distance in 1 single second.
Reloading the gun is only done through crafting just like the real thing would require you to have to prepare the concoction.
The ammunition recipe is that of one iron lump/ingot and 1 gunpowder, this creates only one bullet
How will this, then become "THE BIGGEST FAILURE OF GAMING HISTORY" when the gun is far from OP and used as a supplementary force in combat.
With that attitude, we shouldn't add anything to minecraft, because it might be a mistake. Its not like you can't remove/improve the guns if they do end up poorly. Its not like its a game that will ship as soon as we add guns, and we will be stuck with them forever. If you are going to argue against them, please use real arguments, not random assertions.
You make it just useful enough to be worth using but not so useful that its overpowered. This is what we call balancing. Balancing it so its somewhere in between the two extremes.
Notch isn't against guns because he feels they're out of place.
TnT is out of place among everything else in Minecraft, and yet it remains.
No, it isn't. TnT (not in this form) was used WAY before guns were.
Notch isn't against guns because they're too broken.
TnT is more powerful than any force in Minecraft. It can kill any mob instantly (even players), it can level entire mountains in a matter of seconds, and it's easy to obtain.
Not really. Creepers only drop 3 gunpowder at max, and rarely do they drop it.
Notch is against guns because of you, the players.
Because people make dumb complaints such as "But I don't want Minecraft to be a FPS"
-You already play Minecraft from first-person.
-You have projectile weapons to shoot.
Minecraft is an FPS. Albeit a creative FPS, but it is inarguably a first-person shooter.
No, it isn't.
Definition: First-person shooter (FPS) is a video game genre which centers the gameplay around gun- and projectile weapon-based combat through the first person perspective; i.e., the player experiences the action through the eyes of a protagonist.
"Oh, but it's not an FPS if I don't use bows and arrows"
Again, a dumb conclusion.
Go play any FPS game, and press 1.
This is typically the melee weapon. Now, hold down the mouse button.
Hmm, a hand-held item repeatedly being swung to kill enemies in the world.
No, I'm sure Minecraft shows no similarity to this.
That is an irrelevant argument, since you swing your arms for most hand actions.
Notch will not put in guns because of the hundreds of children/man-children that will BAWWWW and send him complaint letters saying he's broken the game, when the game is in fact broken in so many ways already.
It is balanced, mostly.
Player-made TnT cannons that can shoot 300+ tiles, thus destroying anything or anybody withing range instantly and with great ease? Sure!
But how much time and effort does that require?
A single item (bucket) that can facilitate the creation of an infinitely-flowing spring of lava which severely burns anything organic in it's path, and is extremely easy to grief with? Yeah!
It does in fact run out after a while, unless it is constantly going down a slope.
Carry 3 sets of diamond armor, 8 sets of diamond swords, and the remainder of the inventory full of mushroom soup: you're an unstoppable killing machine! But that's okay, because you've earned it.
Diamonds aren't really that easy to find. And even if you do, they aren't found in groups of more than 4-5.
A single gun where you can't move while firing, doesn't instantly kill anything, and requires you to craft for every shot as counterpart to an already-existing projectile weapon? WHOOOOA now buddy, that doesn't fit in the game at ALL, and in fact is extremely overpowered. If we put this in, the game will become counter-strike in a matter of hours!
Cry moar.
I wouldn't mind it so much if Notch would at least justify/defend his reasoning with a logical argument, and not just "because I said so"
The game was made by Notch. He can do whatever he wants with it.
TnT is out of place among everything else in Minecraft, and yet it remains.
Notch isn't against guns because they're too broken.
TnT is more powerful than any force in Minecraft. It can kill any mob instantly (even players), it can level entire mountains in a matter of seconds, and it's easy to obtain.
Notch is against guns because of you, the players.
Because people make dumb complaints such as "But I don't want Minecraft to be a FPS"
-You already play Minecraft from first-person.
-You have projectile weapons to shoot.
Minecraft is an FPS. Albeit a creative FPS, but it is inarguably a first-person shooter.
"Oh, but it's not an FPS if I don't use bows and arrows"
Again, a dumb conclusion.
Go play any FPS game, and press 1.
This is typically the melee weapon. Now, hold down the mouse button.
Hmm, a hand-held item repeatedly being swung to kill enemies in the world.
No, I'm sure Minecraft shows no similarity to this.
Notch will not put in guns because of the hundreds of children/man-children that will BAWWWW and send him complaint letters saying he's broken the game, when the game is in fact broken in so many ways already.
Player-made TnT cannons that can shoot 300+ tiles, thus destroying anything or anybody withing range instantly and with great ease? Sure!
A single item (bucket) that can facilitate the creation of an infinitely-flowing spring of lava which severely burns anything organic in it's path, and is extremely easy to grief with? Yeah!
Carry 3 sets of diamond armor, 8 sets of diamond swords, and the remainder of the inventory full of mushroom soup: you're an unstoppable killing machine! But that's okay, because you've earned it.
A single gun where you can't move while firing, doesn't instantly kill anything, and requires you to craft for every shot as counterpart to an already-existing projectile weapon? WHOOOOA now buddy, that doesn't fit in the game at ALL, and in fact is extremely overpowered. If we put this in, the game will become counter-strike in a matter of hours!
I wouldn't mind it so much if Notch would at least justify/defend his reasoning with a logical argument, and not just "because I said so"
Also a massive mushroom mongler.
It'd be greatly appreciated. Also to those saying guns are out of place you really need to take a history lesson
Here read up something here.
This is an article about a 15th century hand cannon or "Swivel Gun"
http://www.culture24.org.uk/history+%26 ... t/art79503
This is a brief about gunpowder based weaponry
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Pla ... raphID=kyf
Hungarians were notorious of using Muskets and Arquebuses as early as 1300s
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/thou/thou05.htm
A good essay on the matter
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm
And so much more you can all look up yourselves
@Zarma, yes the early handcannons, and rifles did suck in the rain, but when used properly proved to be devastating in many battles.
No it's not really a good argument, but it is his game there'd be no use in trying to argue with him if he's not interested in listening.
No you obviously don't know what's being proposed here.
Seriously.
Please read a thread before critiquing
BTW this is what we're proposing
Recipe for an Arquebus
Flint and steel = Torch
[]
[] []
Simple recipe but still expensive
[] [] []
[] []
[] []
Stats
The Arquebus would have 100% accuracy.
But bear with me before protesting this, and let's take a peek at our contestants side by side before passing judgment...
Bow and Arrow . . . . . . . . . . . . .Attribute. . .. . . . . . . . . . Arquebus
Unlimited . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Number of Uses. . .. . . . . . . . 10 - 20
Sticks, Silk,Flint, Feathers . . . . . Materials. . . . . . . .Wood, Steel, Torch, Blackpowder, Sticks, Coal,Planks
Yes/Sometimes . . . . . . . . .Ammo can be retrieved . . . . . . . . Never
55 Tiles, plus free-fall. . . . . . . . . . Range . . . . . . . . . . . . .70 Tiles total
2 Unarmored, 1 Armored . . . . . Health-Damage . . . . . . . .<35 tiles : 5 Unarmored, 2½ Armored
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >35 tiles : 2 Unarmored, 1 Armored
Small "twang", arrow . . . . . . . Evidence of Shot. . . . . . .Smoke, light, explosive-sound
None . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Reload Time. . . . . . . . . . 5 to 10 seconds
As fast as you click . . . . . . . . . Rate of Fire. . . . . .1 round every 2-3 seconds
Can move while shooting . . . . . . . . . Possible to move while shooting?. . . . . Cannot move while shooting
The OP has found that the average Minecraft character can sprint about 7 tiles in one second
The op also agreed to a carrying restriction to be implemented to the Arquebus to avoid it being fired multiple times.
I'm also going to point out this, this gun is not point and click, it is fused based, meaning after you click it takes 3 seconds to fire like the real thing
Tell me now, how is this weapon overpowered or underpowered?
Really, if anything it's an alternative way of approaching ranged combat, something that needs variation in this game along with melee combat.
Edit: I posted the old proposition, fix'd it now
Yeah...I guess it just rubbed me the wrong way is all, when it shouldn't have.
Because even without guns, I can still have a lot of fun with Minecraft.
Still, I wish we could get a reasonable explanation for them being barred.
Also a massive mushroom mongler.
The problem I see with a gun is that it would also be overpowered. Even with a reload timer (and I really like the first posts solution) theres nothing stopping someone from making an entire inventory of guns.
Solutions:
- Limit on how many guns one can hold in his inventory
- Make guns harder to craft
- Make guns take up more than 1 spot in the inventory
So with one or more of those solutions implemented theres still the issue of accuracy. Right now the bow and arrow is accurate to a T but because of its low power you have to compensate by arching the shot. With a gun I don't think there should be any arching involved but instead the accuracy should be horrible at long range. Like how early muskets were in real life.
I think guns can work just they need to be severely limited.
Also thanks for not leaving this thread entirely in the dark.
@speedy shrimp That can be arranged, the op and cheezyx were working on a good range for accuracy to be deviated.
None of that is hard to code, nor even time consuming.
Combat doesn't need variety so much as depth. Depth may include variety, but variety is not the real issue.
If you don't limit guns, they will be overpowering. The proposed arquebus is limited, but balanced. If guns are not limited, you end up with a glock, and that is overpowered. If you hit exactly where you aim at, there is no chance to dodge, and that is bad game design. If they have a high rate of fire, they are overpowering. If they reload without penalty, they become overpowering. If you think guns can work, but the proposed solutions are useless, show us a proposal that is balanced and fits the theme.
@speedy shrimp
NVM we need to work on that from scratch. But either way if you read the stats it's not really op. It takes 2-3 seconds to fire, at a range of more than 35 blocks it's damage is the equivalent of a bow, it's ammo is not really easy to come around by if you have shitty luck and can't find creepers.
Something like this was proposed, I think we can work from that.
@Mystify, thanks bro, you might be a great foe, but you're one hell of an ally.
So, with the long range (for MC) weapon covered the gun will become the short to mid-range weapon. It will deal out a ton more damage but you have to be close.
@spartacuscat Oh I haven't read the whole thread. I'll read up on the proposed stats.
Oh okay BTW I reposted them here on this page so don't venture off those other ones are old. That is unless you want to see how me an Mystify came to agree upon that thanks to the Op's intervention that is.
Wrong.
I would have to make the game myself.
Saying "its impossible, man!" is just giving up and a throw-away comment. Its possible to balance anything in a game, you just have to work at it.
Also we already proved this gun is balanced. Not once have you refuted any of the stat's properties, Mystify's arguments, or mine.
Hell you even did an "implying implications" meme from /v/?
What the hell is up with that?
What's next?
You're going to start saying
>Implying I did that.
Edit: BTW the Arquebus was far from being as powerful as most modern rifles, you know nothing of what you're talking about by saying "Real guns" I already provided links showing their historical context and its contemporaries and variants during the mid Middle Ages and late Middle Ages.
Any addition to the game requires models, but we get additions all the time. The need for a model is not a problem.
Particles are simple to code, esp. since he already has particles in-game
A couple of simple sounds is not much.
Code to freeze the player while shooting would be utterly simple. I doubt it would even take 5 minutes.
The idea did not include random explosions.
The proposed weapon is not the weakest in the game. You can only say that if you assume bows will never be fixed.
So we have what? A couple of models to add, and 5 minutes of code? Throw in a couple sounds? For an item that could see extensive use?
What is hard to understand? Combat should be expanded to have some depth to it(as in, Deep gameplay.) Variety can be a component of depth, but they are not synonymous.
So if they are unlimited, they are overpowered, but if you add limits, they are useless? There is no middle ground? I could argue that the bow is useless because some people could dodge arrows all day, and you have a limited supply of arrows. Or you could argue it is overpowered becuase it does damage at range, making swords useless. We spent most of this thread debating how to balance the weapon so that it is useful but not overpowered, and we achieved that. You are only immobilized for a short time when useing it, so you don't automatically become the pin cushion of the century. The enemy has a short enough time that they have a hard time dodging it, but a long enough time that it is possible to do so. It takes time in the crafting window to reload, but it is not something you are meant to reload in combat anyways. Present some actual arguments for why it can't be balanced, don't present a false dichotomy of "overpowered/useless" without any support.
You're wrong, the gun was setup so it can't be abused stats based, not just economics side.
Range 70 blocks total, but at more than 35 it loses the 5 damage it does and becomes the damage a Bow and Arrow does.
Firing rate is that of 2-3 seconds, and you can't follow your opponent while aiming. Keep in mind that a Minecraft character can cover about 7 blocks of distance in 1 single second.
Reloading the gun is only done through crafting just like the real thing would require you to have to prepare the concoction.
The ammunition recipe is that of one iron lump/ingot and 1 gunpowder, this creates only one bullet
How will this, then become "THE BIGGEST FAILURE OF GAMING HISTORY" when the gun is far from OP and used as a supplementary force in combat.
You make it just useful enough to be worth using but not so useful that its overpowered. This is what we call balancing. Balancing it so its somewhere in between the two extremes.
See the bold.
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