If you'd be willing to take the time, ill like to discuss something that's been on my mind for a LONG TIME. Minecraft's Combat; how its boring, and could possibly be fixed! Some of you may remember me from my famous video such as, Minecraft is for Autistic Babbys, or maybe my minecraft review! In said review, i talked about how one of the main things wrong with minecraft at its released was how the combat was horrible, boring, and had no redeeming factors. today, im here to tell you (Yes, i'm talking to you Jeb) can fix it.
If anyone here is an avid gamer, they would know that 'Meta' is what is the best, most powerful, and possibly overpowered strategy or weapon/armor in the game. In Minecraft's case, the Meta is Diamond. As soon as you get diamond, or any other user in a multiplayer does, they are superior and out rank everyone else. This also means they can Gank/Grief other players on the server. Run up in Full Diamond armor and a Diamond Sword, and your dead in 3 hits. All the player can do is run for there life, until they meet there diamond coated doom. It also means that even if another player manages to get diamond at the same time, It will just end up in a stalemate of whoever gets the first hit in.
What i'm about to suggest will not fully address the problems i mentioned, because it is for one; only and idea and could easily be toyed with. I suggest that we split weapons and armor into 3 different category's; Heavy, Medium, Light. What this means in the case of weapons; Light weapons are Fast, but do half the damage of medium weapons, while heavy weapons are slow but do double damage. Basically, a greatsword, normal sword, and a dagger. What this means for armor; Heavy, Medium and Light; Heavy armor can sustain twice as many hits as Medium, while light armor can only sustain half of that.
Now this all sound well and good, but there's a problem, This means that players will just use all the heavy gear as it will become a new meta. So this is what we do; ALL ARMORS AND WEAPONS WILL SLOW THE PLAYER DEPENDENT UPON THE TYPE THEY ARE WEARING. Lets say an unarmored player moves at 100% speed. while wearing Light armor, the player moves at 90% speed, while wearing medium he moves at 75% speed, and while wearing Heavy armor, he moves at 50% speed. This means that even if the player is in full heavy armor, it doesn't mean he can easily kill a player in Light armor, since the Light armored player has more of a mobility bonus then the heavy armored player.
Another thing to note that If a player has the items in there inventory they need to have them equipped in order for the movement speed reduction to be in effect. Same goes with having a weapon on the hotbar, If its on the hotbar, they still receive a movement speed reduction. But if its a dagger, it will be hard to notice a %2 movement speed reduction.
So lets get a Chart going;
Player Movement
Nothing at 100% movement speed
Light Armor at 90% movement speed
Medium Armor at 75% movement speed
Heavy Armor at 50% movement speed
Player Damage
(this is based off diamond gear at its current damage base)
With Fists, 1 Damage
With Dagger, 3 Damage
With Sword, 7 Damage
With Greatsword, 14 Damage
Now this will change and solve the current problem with Minecraft's current combat meta in 2 ways;
1. Even if a player has full armor in Light Leather and Wooden Daggers OR Heavy Diamond and Diamond Greatsword, an unarmed and unarmored player can still run away from the player who has gear. This is one way to prevent not only ganking, but from one player teaming up on a while group and murdering them without any hope of escape.
2. If will give the player more choice on how they want to combat both other players and the mobs in the world. A Heavy armored player could be beaten by a Light armored player if they know what there doing. This means there is no true meta other then just getting diamond armor, you have choice, hell you could even go bareback with only a Greatsword like a TRUE VIKING, YAAARGG!
Thank you for reading this, and hopefully you can give me your input on what you think of my idea.
(Also to not, I'm not saying i'm the first one to come up with a Dagger, or a Greatsword, Heavy or Light Armor, I'm just suggesting a way to properly implement these tools into the game, thanks again!)
So basically if you're wearing the max. armor, you cant barely move?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
note: Then I mention a group of people in my posts, i mean the majority of information i have seen from that group, and my statement may not be accurate for every individual in that group.
This sounds like an interesting attempt at combat. I've always wondered what Minecraft would be like if armor slowed you down when you wore it. As long as they don't go overboard I'm game for this.
In my personal, asshole opinion, I think this all overtly complicated. I love the combat system as it is. I like that it isn't complicated, that I don't have to crunch numbers, or go traipsing around endless dungeons to find the best loot. I like that all I have to worry about is swingin my sword and shootin my bow. I don't have to constantly worry about upgrades or materia or whatever the hell else. If diamond armor slows you down, then how can you carry 2,304 pieces of obsidian that probably have a considerable amount of individual weight. Even better, how can you hold a bucket of lava without burning yourself. There is a level of realism that minecraft has no business shaking hands with.
I love that I can use mechanical intelligence to succeed, on hard mode no less, and prosper.
I say this: if you want in depth combat then you should go play a game more tailored to that kind of experience. It isn't right for me to make an assesment on what minecraft is or how it should be played, but I stand by the idea that minecraft should keep it's light natured combat.
I think that's too much complication for a game that isn't combat based. Minecraft is a building sandbox game, combat is just something to add action to that.
I think that's too much complication for a game that isn't combat based. Minecraft is a building sandbox game, combat is just something to add action to that.
No support. Go play an RPG.
So Minecraft shouldn't compete with Terraria? I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but at least make it competitive in all aspects with it's competitors.
Really PVP is bland in Minecraft. It could use some checks and balances and some true strategy.
I would be more than happy if they included pros and cons to the melee weapon. Long sword would add an extra block to hit range but would swing slower, normal would be normal, and dagger would be normal, but swing rate is faster, but does less damage.
If they could figure a proper way to craft them then it would greatly improve the combat aspect of the game. Oh and this is based on 1:1 ratio in SMP. SSP is still broken for some reason.
I think that's too much complication for a game that isn't combat based. Minecraft is a building sandbox game, combat is just something to add action to that.
No support. Go play an RPG.
It's a cliche fantasy, it's basically an rpg except they made it to where you can build your base however you want, that is where sandbox comes into play. I think combat is actually a large aspect of the game.
I'm not sure if I would like speed reduction, but I would like daggers, shields and great swords/halberds added.
The different variations on weapons would be good, but I don't think the armor should mess with your speed, new players would be posting all over the forums "WHY I NO WALK FAST!!!!1111" and it is just ridiculous considering you can carry tons (literally) of material, like cecilhowe said.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
ragnarock200: awesome, are those things with the creeper faces pistons or furnaces
Snowey1994: There dispensers
The different variations on weapons would be good, but I don't think the armor should mess with your speed, new players would be posting all over the forums "WHY I NO WALK FAST!!!!1111" and it is just ridiculous considering you can carry tons (literally) of material, like cecilhowe said.
Never let realism get in the way of gameplay. I would add slower speed to heavy armor but keep it to where you can carry stacks of obsidian, it's a goddamn game.
Besides, noobs complain about anything they don't understand, doesn't mean it will be a bad feature.
Never let realism get in the way of gameplay. I would add slower speed to heavy armor but keep it to where you can carry stacks of obsidian, it's a goddamn game.
Besides, noobs complain about anything they don't understand, doesn't mean it will be a bad feature.
I don't think it is a realism issue, actually, so much as a continuity thing. But you do have a point; it is a game, anything is possible!
In response to your view on this cecilhowe, You said you like minecraft's combat the way it is, simple. The truth about what i'm suggesting here is that it still keeps minecraft combat simple, you only have to look at the technical side of it if you want too. Its visual enough to other players to realize that a smaller weapon will more then likely be faster, and a bigger weapon will be slower. Another way to do armor very effectively would be to make Light armor a lighter tint, and heavy armor a darker tint. Its more common sense then intricate mathematics. You'll still be running up and hitting people with a sword, it just adds a few more variables that can be easily identified by other players. This isn't intended to make the game more realistic, its to give the combat more depth, rather they try to make it harder to understand. Easy to Learn, Hard to Master.
As well to everyone else, the reason I suggest the movement speed reduction is because having someone run around in full heavy armor would result in them being over powered so there has to be some kind of negative value. As I stated previously, to prevent someone in full heavy armor from griefing everyone in the spawn zone of a server.
In any case, it might make more sense to more the reductions down to something along these lines;
Player Movement
Nothing at 100% movement speed
Light Armor at 90% movement speed
Medium Armor at 80% movement speed
Heavy Armor at 70% movement speed
EDIT; And I know minecraft really isn't about combat, but the one thing that primary annoys me when I come back to play it now that Jeb is working and updating it more often, is the lack of some kind of remotely interesting combat.
So Minecraft shouldn't compete with Terraria? I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but at least make it competitive in all aspects with it's competitors.
Really PVP is bland in Minecraft. It could use some checks and balances and some true strategy.
I would be more than happy if they included pros and cons to the melee weapon. Long sword would add an extra block to hit range but would swing slower, normal would be normal, and dagger would be normal, but swing rate is faster, but does less damage.
If they could figure a proper way to craft them then it would greatly improve the combat aspect of the game. Oh and this is based on 1:1 ratio in SMP. SSP is still broken for some reason.
A game should focus on one genre, if it tries to focus on more, it becomes bad.
It's a cliche fantasy, it's basically an rpg except they made it to where you can build your base however you want, that is where sandbox comes into play. I think combat is actually a large aspect of the game.
What does being fantasy has to do with it being another genre?
1.8 was a nice step into improved combat, but I do hope Jeb/Jon takes it further. An offhand shield for blocking arrows perhaps. Armor slowing you down would be nice (but %50 seems drastic.) Or maybe have other effects, like wearing heavier armor means more food consumption, slower swimming/climbing, etc.
I'm still surprised we can spam-click our swords to create a flurry of invincible wood/stone/iron/diamond shield. Bows were "nerfed" so they couldn't be rapid-fired, though each arrow was made stronger as a result. I feel as though swords should also have a short cooldown, but perhaps deal more damage. Or something.
But when all is said and done, Minecraft really isn't meant to appeal to combat. I mean, in 5 seconds you can shield yourself in a little stone box impervious to all evils of the world.
A game should focus on one genre, if it tries to focus on more, it becomes bad.
I entirely disagree. Without games dibbing in and out of known defined genres, we'd still all be playing Age of Empires and the original Zork via text commands.
Player Movement
Nothing at 100% movement speed
Light Armor at 90% movement speed
Medium Armor at 80% movement speed
Heavy Armor at 70% movement speed
I was iffy about your previous values but these I would be fine with. Wouldn't armor weight be based on defense? As in, light is leather, medium is iron and heavy is diamond?
Homem, the adventure in Minecraft comes first. The devs have stated it as so. This makes Minecraft an RPG with sandbox aspects to it and not the other way around. The main point is to survive and find the strongholds, and building is a secondary aspect. The survival part is wholly a RPG element.
So Homem, you can't say Minecraft should not try to be an RPG when it's core is based around an RPG, and building is just an alternative to the main purpose of the game.
Homem, the adventure in Minecraft comes first. The devs have stated it as so. This makes Minecraft an RPG with sandbox aspects to it and not the other way around. The main point is to survive and find the strongholds, and building is a secondary aspect. The survival part is wholly a RPG element.
So Homem, you can't say Minecraft should not try to be an RPG when it's core is based around an RPG, and building is just an alternative to the main purpose of the game.
Thank you! That's what I've always been trying to say. Really, classic(the buildingness) was added first simply because it was easier to add. The 'main focus' was adventure but building was the great simple additive.
Creative came before Survival... but Survival received all the attention for the longest time. I'm really not sure if Minecraft is more heavily weighed toward building or adventuring; updates typically contain bits of both. Take redstone lamps, for example. Great for building, does nothing for adventuring. Then you have zombie sieges; great for adventuring and does nothing for building.
(Actually, it won't be long before players take advantage of zombie sieges with grinders, but you get my point.)
I was iffy about your previous values but these I would be fine with. Wouldn't armor weight be based on defense? As in, light is leather, medium is iron and heavy is diamond?
I don't care what genre it is or w/e, adding a couple of weapon types would be freaking fantastic.
That's not what i intended it to be, You can basically make all Light, Medium and Heavy armor out of all types of material, Light Diamond, Heavy Iron, Medium Leather. Its so that you can create the types of armor you want as you find more and more resources/ores.
If you'd be willing to take the time, ill like to discuss something that's been on my mind for a LONG TIME. Minecraft's Combat; how its boring, and could possibly be fixed! Some of you may remember me from my famous video such as, Minecraft is for Autistic Babbys, or maybe my minecraft review! In said review, i talked about how one of the main things wrong with minecraft at its released was how the combat was horrible, boring, and had no redeeming factors. today, im here to tell you (Yes, i'm talking to you Jeb) can fix it.
If anyone here is an avid gamer, they would know that 'Meta' is what is the best, most powerful, and possibly overpowered strategy or weapon/armor in the game. In Minecraft's case, the Meta is Diamond. As soon as you get diamond, or any other user in a multiplayer does, they are superior and out rank everyone else. This also means they can Gank/Grief other players on the server. Run up in Full Diamond armor and a Diamond Sword, and your dead in 3 hits. All the player can do is run for there life, until they meet there diamond coated doom. It also means that even if another player manages to get diamond at the same time, It will just end up in a stalemate of whoever gets the first hit in.
What i'm about to suggest will not fully address the problems i mentioned, because it is for one; only and idea and could easily be toyed with. I suggest that we split weapons and armor into 3 different category's; Heavy, Medium, Light. What this means in the case of weapons; Light weapons are Fast, but do half the damage of medium weapons, while heavy weapons are slow but do double damage. Basically, a greatsword, normal sword, and a dagger. What this means for armor; Heavy, Medium and Light; Heavy armor can sustain twice as many hits as Medium, while light armor can only sustain half of that.
Now this all sound well and good, but there's a problem, This means that players will just use all the heavy gear as it will become a new meta. So this is what we do; ALL ARMORS AND WEAPONS WILL SLOW THE PLAYER DEPENDENT UPON THE TYPE THEY ARE WEARING. Lets say an unarmored player moves at 100% speed. while wearing Light armor, the player moves at 90% speed, while wearing medium he moves at 75% speed, and while wearing Heavy armor, he moves at 50% speed. This means that even if the player is in full heavy armor, it doesn't mean he can easily kill a player in Light armor, since the Light armored player has more of a mobility bonus then the heavy armored player.
Another thing to note that If a player has the items in there inventory they need to have them equipped in order for the movement speed reduction to be in effect. Same goes with having a weapon on the hotbar, If its on the hotbar, they still receive a movement speed reduction. But if its a dagger, it will be hard to notice a %2 movement speed reduction.
So lets get a Chart going;
Player Movement
Nothing at 100% movement speed
Light Armor at 90% movement speed
Medium Armor at 75% movement speed
Heavy Armor at 50% movement speed
Player Damage
(this is based off diamond gear at its current damage base)
With Fists, 1 Damage
With Dagger, 3 Damage
With Sword, 7 Damage
With Greatsword, 14 Damage
Percentile Movement Reduction per item
Nothing, 100%
Light Armor; 90% : Head=1% : Armor=4% : Leggings=2% : Boots=1% : Dagger=2%
Medium Armor; 75% : Head=3% : Armor=9% : Leggings=5% : Boots=3% : Sword=5%
Heavy Armor; 50% : Head=7% : Armor=16% : Leggings=10% : Boots=7% : Greatsword=10%
Now this will change and solve the current problem with Minecraft's current combat meta in 2 ways;
1. Even if a player has full armor in Light Leather and Wooden Daggers OR Heavy Diamond and Diamond Greatsword, an unarmed and unarmored player can still run away from the player who has gear. This is one way to prevent not only ganking, but from one player teaming up on a while group and murdering them without any hope of escape.
2. If will give the player more choice on how they want to combat both other players and the mobs in the world. A Heavy armored player could be beaten by a Light armored player if they know what there doing. This means there is no true meta other then just getting diamond armor, you have choice, hell you could even go bareback with only a Greatsword like a TRUE VIKING, YAAARGG!
Thank you for reading this, and hopefully you can give me your input on what you think of my idea.
(Also to not, I'm not saying i'm the first one to come up with a Dagger, or a Greatsword, Heavy or Light Armor, I'm just suggesting a way to properly implement these tools into the game, thanks again!)
Hey.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155932
Crates
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239467
Item Scrolling
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174539
I love that I can use mechanical intelligence to succeed, on hard mode no less, and prosper.
I say this: if you want in depth combat then you should go play a game more tailored to that kind of experience. It isn't right for me to make an assesment on what minecraft is or how it should be played, but I stand by the idea that minecraft should keep it's light natured combat.
No support. Go play an RPG.
So Minecraft shouldn't compete with Terraria? I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but at least make it competitive in all aspects with it's competitors.
Really PVP is bland in Minecraft. It could use some checks and balances and some true strategy.
I would be more than happy if they included pros and cons to the melee weapon. Long sword would add an extra block to hit range but would swing slower, normal would be normal, and dagger would be normal, but swing rate is faster, but does less damage.
If they could figure a proper way to craft them then it would greatly improve the combat aspect of the game. Oh and this is based on 1:1 ratio in SMP. SSP is still broken for some reason.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155932
Crates
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239467
Item Scrolling
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174539
I'm not sure if I would like speed reduction, but I would like daggers, shields and great swords/halberds added.
Snowey1994: There dispensers
Besides, noobs complain about anything they don't understand, doesn't mean it will be a bad feature.
I don't think it is a realism issue, actually, so much as a continuity thing. But you do have a point; it is a game, anything is possible!
In response to your view on this cecilhowe, You said you like minecraft's combat the way it is, simple. The truth about what i'm suggesting here is that it still keeps minecraft combat simple, you only have to look at the technical side of it if you want too. Its visual enough to other players to realize that a smaller weapon will more then likely be faster, and a bigger weapon will be slower. Another way to do armor very effectively would be to make Light armor a lighter tint, and heavy armor a darker tint. Its more common sense then intricate mathematics. You'll still be running up and hitting people with a sword, it just adds a few more variables that can be easily identified by other players. This isn't intended to make the game more realistic, its to give the combat more depth, rather they try to make it harder to understand. Easy to Learn, Hard to Master.
As well to everyone else, the reason I suggest the movement speed reduction is because having someone run around in full heavy armor would result in them being over powered so there has to be some kind of negative value. As I stated previously, to prevent someone in full heavy armor from griefing everyone in the spawn zone of a server.
In any case, it might make more sense to more the reductions down to something along these lines;
Player Movement
Nothing at 100% movement speed
Light Armor at 90% movement speed
Medium Armor at 80% movement speed
Heavy Armor at 70% movement speed
EDIT; And I know minecraft really isn't about combat, but the one thing that primary annoys me when I come back to play it now that Jeb is working and updating it more often, is the lack of some kind of remotely interesting combat.
Hey.
A game should focus on one genre, if it tries to focus on more, it becomes bad.
What does being fantasy has to do with it being another genre?
I'm still surprised we can spam-click our swords to create a flurry of invincible wood/stone/iron/diamond shield. Bows were "nerfed" so they couldn't be rapid-fired, though each arrow was made stronger as a result. I feel as though swords should also have a short cooldown, but perhaps deal more damage. Or something.
But when all is said and done, Minecraft really isn't meant to appeal to combat. I mean, in 5 seconds you can shield yourself in a little stone box impervious to all evils of the world.
I entirely disagree. Without games dibbing in and out of known defined genres, we'd still all be playing Age of Empires and the original Zork via text commands.
I don't care what genre it is or w/e, adding a couple of weapon types would be freaking fantastic.
So Homem, you can't say Minecraft should not try to be an RPG when it's core is based around an RPG, and building is just an alternative to the main purpose of the game.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155932
Crates
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239467
Item Scrolling
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174539
(Actually, it won't be long before players take advantage of zombie sieges with grinders, but you get my point.)
That's not what i intended it to be, You can basically make all Light, Medium and Heavy armor out of all types of material, Light Diamond, Heavy Iron, Medium Leather. Its so that you can create the types of armor you want as you find more and more resources/ores.
Hey.