How is being able to make a long minecart track overpowered? Or how is being able to make a working water well with pistons over powered? Or how is making a cauldron to spice up your brewing room over powered? Or how is making iron bars to fence in a jail cell for zombies over powered? Or how is making a storage cart system with 16 storage carts (that is 80 iron ingots by the way) over powered? Or how is replacing all of your wooden doors with iron doors over powered? Or how is using iron blocks as a sliding piston door over powered?
How is ANY of that overpowered instead of fun and creative?
That's for all of the non-combat/defensive uses. While iron DOES have a lot of uses in that aspect... it's still overpowered to have so much of it. While my example is silly, imagine if all of those uses were put into a separate ore that retained the current rarity of iron, while iron tools, armor, and weapons were changed to have a lower frequency.
That isn't as good because it separates two of the main sides of Minecraft, but it lets you see how it could change the game. Passive or building uses generally are not overpowered; so maybe make the crafting recipes for tracks produce more while lowering the overall rarity?
Well, I think of it this way... Sure, it's not the same spread as other games, but it works for the purposes of this game. Especially looking at the poll; most people are very happy with the way things work.
I'm not trying to invalidate your opinion; I'm just saying that sometimes, when you're part of a minority, it further cements the idea that opinion is not always truth. I'm part of the majority, so I have an easier time justifying my opinion.
I've been in the minority though, specifically with the new terrain generation. I liked the 1.8/1.0 style, and I'm a little bummed that it's being so heavily tweaked, but I'm going to let it happen.
Well, maybe it's time to try a different game if Minecraft isn't providing you with the enjoyment you seek. I'm not trying to sound all "gtfo", but I think it's unfair to demand that a game change once you get bored of it.
What if the new stuff was implemented, then you got bored of that? Then you got bored of the next thing? At some point, there's some responsibility in just saying that you need a break from the game to let your creative juices refill (if that's where you get most of your fun from, I mean).
I'm not sure what else there would be, aside from just more health/damage. I'm all for that, but I think AI is a much more dynamic and interesting way of increasing difficulty.
As for the new stuff: it's not like I just want expansion packs pumped out every month, but simply making the game last longer would be nice. Even though I've done it all a million times, it's still fun to start from scratch and get to beat the End once more: it's what's AFTER that that gets boring. Rare and unique areas like mushroom islands and strongholds (even though those are necessary to get to the End) are a good start, but what about rare dungeons in other biomes, each with unique treasures and bosses?
As for mob AI, those current updates are simply making default mobs do things they always should have. New mobs, such as flying mobs, would add an interesting new aspect to exploring and surviving. The same goes with tunneling mobs, or wall-clutching mobs (frogs that perch on walls and jump from side to side, snatching at you with their tongue, the centipede-that-climbs-on-ceilings-suggestion that I've used oh so many times...)
That's for all of the non-combat/defensive uses. While iron DOES have a lot of uses in that aspect... it's still overpowered to have so much of it. While my example is silly, imagine if all of those uses were put into a separate ore that retained the current rarity of iron, while iron tools, armor, and weapons were changed to have a lower frequency.
That isn't as good because it separates two of the main sides of Minecraft, but it lets you see how it could change the game. Passive or building uses generally are not overpowered; so maybe make the crafting recipes for tracks produce more while lowering the overall rarity?
Sorry but iron is the most useful material, it has 20+ uses in the game including both Blocks and Items, that is why having stacks of it its good.
However, those players that just concentrate on lazy and half-assed survival of course just use them for tools and armors, which makes them think they have too much.
But if someday they start playing the real game, not just go kill some monsters they would understand how important iron is and how it fits with the amount.
In my mineshaft i´ve used a lot of iron to make a rail system so i can get to the main caves i´ve found easily, instead of walking down and taking 15 minutes i just use some redstone torches and with a minecart i travel what would take me 5 minutes in 30 seconds.
And i´ve used a lot of iron for that.
I hope some day people will understand iron is not just tools and armor and how reducing its amount would make it harder to use stuff like Long rail systems and other stuff that require 64, even 128 iron ingots to be accomplished.
Sorry but iron is the most useful material, it has 20+ uses in the game including both Blocks and Items, that is why having stacks of it its good.
However, those players that just concentrate on lazy and half-assed survival of course just use them for tools and armors, which makes them think they have too much.
But if someday they start playing the real game, not just go kill some monsters they would understand how important iron is and how it fits with the amount.
In my mineshaft i´ve used a lot of iron to make a rail system so i can get to the main caves i´ve found easily, instead of walking down and taking 15 minutes i just use some redstone torches and with a minecart i travel what would take me 5 minutes in 30 seconds.
And i´ve used a lot of iron for that.
I hope some day people will understand iron is not just tools and armor.
The point is that the tools and armor are overpowered because of how common it is. Also, a majority of points that people bring up for it are building projects. Creative is for building projects, not survival mode. If you want to make stuff in survival mode, then you have to face the fact that balancing survival mode for survival needs to come first.
The point is that the tools and armor are overpowered because of how common it is. Also, a majority of points that people bring up for it are building projects. Creative is for building projects, not survival mode. If you want to make stuff in survival mode, then you have to face the fact that balancing survival mode for survival needs to come first.
Just letting you know that this last response warrants a block from me. Please don't be offended if I don't respond to your posts.
*came back on to grab mcpatcher and this is what happens*
The point is that the tools and armor are overpowered because of how common it is. Also, a majority of points that people bring up for it are building projects. Creative is for building projects, not survival mode. If you want to make stuff in survival mode, then you have to face the fact that balancing survival mode for survival needs to come first.
The armor is arguably overpowered, but I have a hard time seeing how iron tools are too good. Stone tools have 132 uses and iron has 251, meaning that iron isn't even twice as good as stone. Iron is much less than half as common as stone. The mining speed boost is fairly small. To me, iron tools feel like stone tools 2.0.
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The armor is arguably overpowered, but I have a hard time seeing how iron tools are too good. Stone tools have 132 uses and iron has 251, meaning that iron isn't even twice as good as stone. Iron is much less than half as common as stone. The mining speed boost is fairly small. To me, iron tools feel like stone tools 2.0.
This i agre.
but The way to fix it would not be reducing iron, but to nerf armor.
Imagine how much you would affect people that use pistons, minecart tracks and other iron-based stuff.
I think that is the reason of why it is so common.
Iron is in great demand in minecraft´s economy, it is even more important and useful than diamond.
I agree with you that Iron has many uses and is one of the most important parts of the game. However, with mobs now dropping iron tools/ingots/armor (and gold items with pigmen) it is now possible to get everything except for redstone, lapis lazuli(which is only used as a dye), and diamonds without setting foot in a mine.
In a game called Minecraft, with mining being such an integral part of the game, this is unacceptable to me.
Ok...So as many of you know there has been a lot of debate over Iron. Mainly because it's too rare, resulting in the lower tier items becoming relatively useless after 1 hour of play.
To me... this issue is crazy, I remember back in the day...an hour of play resulted in MAYBE... 15ish bars of iron. And since the old armor system made armor break quickly as I was attacked by mobs. I had to use a lot to keep my armor defense high to stay alive. This made my value of iron very high. Not extreme. But it was something I would set down...and think about
"Should I make an iron tool?" ... "Do I need it?"
I never just made tons of them since I knew I needed to keep it for iron armor. That was a very cool gameplay feeling since it made me pick and choose based on my value of iron. Well... Iron now...Is like inflation to money, there's just so much of it, no one ever puts a 2nd thought on whether they should make iron items or not.
If the tiers of Minecraft are as fallows.
Wood
Stone
Iron
Diamond
Then why is it this...
Wood - Tons of wood, easy to get at start
Stone - Tons of Stone, but you need to get wood first to get started
Iron - Tons in caves :/
Diamond - Very Rare
Shouldn't it be like....
Wood - Tons and Easy
Stone - Tons
Iron - Somewhat Rare
Diamond - Very Rare
That makes more sense.
What do you all think we should do?
Should we lower the amount of iron? I vote yes. BUT....what do you all think?
I have so much iron stacks... much useless ! I think that reducing the number of iron by 2 would be right.
Yeah, iron armor should be nerfed a bit... probably armor in general. It's amount of protection provided by the current durability of the armor, not just a simple flat-rate till it's broken.
As for armor being more common thanks to mob drops... simply reduced the chance of mob rare drops to 1/100 chance, and even then make the drop damaged to a random value.
The point is that the tools and armor are overpowered because of how common it is. Also, a majority of points that people bring up for it are building projects. Creative is for building projects, not survival mode. If you want to make stuff in survival mode, then you have to face the fact that balancing survival mode for survival needs to come first.
Mostly because of the usefulness of said tools.
Take a look at the durability of each material. Wood: 60
Stone: 132
Iron: 251
Gold: 33
Diamond: 1562
I personally will not be able to endorse any type of reduction in availability to iron unless there is some type of stop-gap material introduced between Iron and Diamond. You can plow through your iron tools at just under half the speed of stone tools; but iron is vastly rarer then cobblestone already.
But; my perspective is skewed toward SMP play. Where what ever quantity of materials exists in a world is being split among 10+ players. So in a SSP world; this 'abundant everywhere' material? Take a tenth of it and throw the rest out; that's the 'average' allotment you could expect outside of the single player environment. I say average because you could just as well go cave-diving on your own as much as you could not be around when the other players are purging the world of available resources.
Does it? I've yet to stand around and slay hordes of mobs to see the drop rate, but is it really so great in spoils that it almost makes mining obsolete? Is it really?
I agree with you that Iron has many uses and is one of the most important parts of the game. However, with mobs now dropping iron tools/ingots/armor (and gold items with pigmen) it is now possible to get everything except for redstone, lapis lazuli(which is only used as a dye), and diamonds without setting foot in a mine.
In a game called Minecraft, with mining being such an integral part of the game, this is unacceptable to me.
But cant you see how this merely enables MORE styles of game play? For more people!!?? How is this not obvious? It is like the naysayers are staring a picture of a giant blue ox and a giant lumberjack and saying "I don't see the ox."
My wife, she hates going into caves. I love going into caves. Now there are more options for her!
And on another note, to those of you who are so quick to yell "IT'S SURVIVAL MAN, YOU GOTTA SURVIVE NOT BUILD!!" What the hell are you doing in between surviving, and how is there a time limit or something on the surviving which dictates that you need to look harder and longer for iron to survive? Once you find diamond do you just quit because why keep surviving? It is vexing and confusing. And if I am supposed to ONLY fight on survival, to survive, isn't the real point simply to die?
I choose to play survival to build under pressure, and within imposed constraints. It is challenging and fun, and the way (using a sample from this thread) I imagine most people play. Go to the screenshots subforum and you will find most people are impressed by builds done in legit survival on hard/hardcore mode, not creative.
Mostly because of the usefulness of said tools.
Take a look at the durability of each material. Wood: 60
Stone: 132
Iron: 251
Gold: 33
Diamond: 1562
I personally will not be able to endorse any type of reduction in availability to iron unless there is some type of stop-gap material introduced between Iron and Diamond. You can plow through your iron tools at just under half the speed of stone tools; but iron is vastly rarer then cobblestone already.
But; my perspective is skewed toward SMP play. Where what ever quantity of materials exists in a world is being split among 10+ players. So in a SSP world; this 'abundant everywhere' material? Take a tenth of it and throw the rest out; that's the 'average' allotment you could expect outside of the single player environment. I say average because you could just as well go cave-diving on your own as much as you could not be around when the other players are purging the world of available resources.
I agree on the need for a stop-gap material between Iron and diamond.
However, I have to disagree with your assessment of Iron on SMP. I play on a major server and have never found any trouble at all finding copious amounts of iron in cave systems. Even in old maps. Sure if you look right around spawn there's not much but travel outwards for a minute or two and you'll find plenty of Iron still available.
I actually have a full stack of Iron Blocks on an SMP server right now just sitting there waiting. In addition I have 2 full stacks of rail. So I have to say that on SMP Iron is also not a major issue.
Also, there seems to be a major tear in the community regarding this, "Iron Issue". I'm glad that this has sparked so much interest. With such varying opinions on both sides maybe the Mojang team will have a look at it.
That's for all of the non-combat/defensive uses. While iron DOES have a lot of uses in that aspect... it's still overpowered to have so much of it. While my example is silly, imagine if all of those uses were put into a separate ore that retained the current rarity of iron, while iron tools, armor, and weapons were changed to have a lower frequency.
That isn't as good because it separates two of the main sides of Minecraft, but it lets you see how it could change the game. Passive or building uses generally are not overpowered; so maybe make the crafting recipes for tracks produce more while lowering the overall rarity?
You're using the word "overpowered" without any understanding of what it means.
Something being overpowered in a game means one of two things-
-it's existence trivializes what is supposed to be a challenge
-it's existence makes other items/classes/powers in the game irrelevant, because it is always better. (ie, it is a dominant strategy)
As for the first, Minecraft is balanced around iron. If the game was going to be made harder, it wouldn't be by making us go to stone tools, it would be by just buffing the monsters. Iron is the middle tier tool, which makes it a logical place to balance around. Otherwise, it would be too easy for people who have found diamond. Minecraft also has difficulty levels, if you don't like where 'normal' is balanced at.
For the second- it's still very possible to run out of iron, meaning that stone tools are still relevant. Stone is also virtually omnipresent, so it's sheer abundance gives it something that iron doesn't have. If you run out of iron while out exploring, you can just grab some stone. Diamond tools are also much better than iron tools, so you'll obviously be using those if you have the diamonds for it. The only irrelevant class of tools is wood, but that's okay. There's no room on the ladder for anything lower than stone (since stone is near omnipresent anyway), so wood is fine purely as a "use once just to get a stone pick" tier of tools.
Finally, to cap this off- don't confuse difficult with time consumption. Making players spend twice as much time branch mining to get iron doesn't make the game harder.
I think people need to quickly realize Minecraft is not engineered towards what they personally enjoy, and that the game is created to appeal to a wide audience of players.
But cant you see how this merely enables MORE styles of game play? For more people!!?? How is this not obvious? It is like the naysayers are staring a picture of a giant blue ox and a giant lumberjack and saying "I don't see the ox."
My wife, she hates going into caves. I love going into caves. Now there are more options for her!
And on another note, to those of you who are so quick to yell "IT'S SURVIVAL MAN, YOU GOTTA SURVIVE NOT BUILD!!" What the hell are you doing in between surviving, and how is there a time limit or something on the surviving which dictates that you need to look harder and longer for iron to survive? Once you find diamond do you just quit because why keep surviving? It is vexing and confusing. And if I am supposed to ONLY fight on survival, to survive, isn't the real point simply to die?
I choose to play survival to build under pressure, and within imposed constraints. It is challenging and fun, and the way (using a sample from this thread) I imagine most people play. Go to the screenshots subforum and you will find most people are impressed by builds done in legit survival on hard/hardcore mode, not creative.
I agree with you. We all now have a lot more options regarding what we want to do and how we choose to collect resources. Not to mention how this will drastically change certain maps (Skyblock anyone?). Do we make a mob trap, go beast and fight mobs at the surface, or go underground? Now we can choose!
The only thing is many of us experienced Minecrafters have been building for quite a while and already have multiple mob traps.
I'm just concerned that the game will get too easy for experienced players who now have automatically generating iron and gold farms for easy access to unlimited weapons,armor,tools, and ingots.
That's for all of the non-combat/defensive uses. While iron DOES have a lot of uses in that aspect... it's still overpowered to have so much of it. While my example is silly, imagine if all of those uses were put into a separate ore that retained the current rarity of iron, while iron tools, armor, and weapons were changed to have a lower frequency.
That isn't as good because it separates two of the main sides of Minecraft, but it lets you see how it could change the game. Passive or building uses generally are not overpowered; so maybe make the crafting recipes for tracks produce more while lowering the overall rarity?
As for the new stuff: it's not like I just want expansion packs pumped out every month, but simply making the game last longer would be nice. Even though I've done it all a million times, it's still fun to start from scratch and get to beat the End once more: it's what's AFTER that that gets boring. Rare and unique areas like mushroom islands and strongholds (even though those are necessary to get to the End) are a good start, but what about rare dungeons in other biomes, each with unique treasures and bosses?
As for mob AI, those current updates are simply making default mobs do things they always should have. New mobs, such as flying mobs, would add an interesting new aspect to exploring and surviving. The same goes with tunneling mobs, or wall-clutching mobs (frogs that perch on walls and jump from side to side, snatching at you with their tongue, the centipede-that-climbs-on-ceilings-suggestion that I've used oh so many times...)
Sorry but iron is the most useful material, it has 20+ uses in the game including both Blocks and Items, that is why having stacks of it its good.
However, those players that just concentrate on lazy and half-assed survival of course just use them for tools and armors, which makes them think they have too much.
But if someday they start playing the real game, not just go kill some monsters they would understand how important iron is and how it fits with the amount.
In my mineshaft i´ve used a lot of iron to make a rail system so i can get to the main caves i´ve found easily, instead of walking down and taking 15 minutes i just use some redstone torches and with a minecart i travel what would take me 5 minutes in 30 seconds.
And i´ve used a lot of iron for that.
I hope some day people will understand iron is not just tools and armor and how reducing its amount would make it harder to use stuff like Long rail systems and other stuff that require 64, even 128 iron ingots to be accomplished.
The point is that the tools and armor are overpowered because of how common it is. Also, a majority of points that people bring up for it are building projects. Creative is for building projects, not survival mode. If you want to make stuff in survival mode, then you have to face the fact that balancing survival mode for survival needs to come first.
Just letting you know that this last response warrants a block from me. Please don't be offended if I don't respond to your posts.
*came back on to grab mcpatcher and this is what happens*
The armor is arguably overpowered, but I have a hard time seeing how iron tools are too good. Stone tools have 132 uses and iron has 251, meaning that iron isn't even twice as good as stone. Iron is much less than half as common as stone. The mining speed boost is fairly small. To me, iron tools feel like stone tools 2.0.
If I helped in any way, don't click that little green +, instead tell me how much you liked the post. (Only those who are incapable of earning rep the hard way have to beg for it in their signatures).
This i agre.
but The way to fix it would not be reducing iron, but to nerf armor.
Armor is overpowered, not iron itself.
I agree with you that Iron has many uses and is one of the most important parts of the game. However, with mobs now dropping iron tools/ingots/armor (and gold items with pigmen) it is now possible to get everything except for redstone, lapis lazuli(which is only used as a dye), and diamonds without setting foot in a mine.
In a game called Minecraft, with mining being such an integral part of the game, this is unacceptable to me.
I have so much iron stacks... much useless ! I think that reducing the number of iron by 2 would be right.
As for armor being more common thanks to mob drops... simply reduced the chance of mob rare drops to 1/100 chance, and even then make the drop damaged to a random value.
That's a ridiculous notion. :|
Bumping this post for truth. Good post.
Yes, but this makes mining nearly obsolete.
Sorry, but that is both stupid and wrong
IRON ARMOR is overpowered, but IRON ITSELF is not
Reducing iron will un-balance the game for other playstyles other than
Hurr durr, iron sword, *click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click**click*
Which is the playstyle of 75% of all the people agreeing with this...
THE FIX IS...
DUN DUN DUN......
NERFING ARMOR!
Does it? I've yet to stand around and slay hordes of mobs to see the drop rate, but is it really so great in spoils that it almost makes mining obsolete? Is it really?
Nerf Iron ARMOR
Watch the complaining stop entirely about the situation.
But cant you see how this merely enables MORE styles of game play? For more people!!?? How is this not obvious? It is like the naysayers are staring a picture of a giant blue ox and a giant lumberjack and saying "I don't see the ox."
My wife, she hates going into caves. I love going into caves. Now there are more options for her!
And on another note, to those of you who are so quick to yell "IT'S SURVIVAL MAN, YOU GOTTA SURVIVE NOT BUILD!!" What the hell are you doing in between surviving, and how is there a time limit or something on the surviving which dictates that you need to look harder and longer for iron to survive? Once you find diamond do you just quit because why keep surviving? It is vexing and confusing. And if I am supposed to ONLY fight on survival, to survive, isn't the real point simply to die?
I choose to play survival to build under pressure, and within imposed constraints. It is challenging and fun, and the way (using a sample from this thread) I imagine most people play. Go to the screenshots subforum and you will find most people are impressed by builds done in legit survival on hard/hardcore mode, not creative.
I agree on the need for a stop-gap material between Iron and diamond.
However, I have to disagree with your assessment of Iron on SMP. I play on a major server and have never found any trouble at all finding copious amounts of iron in cave systems. Even in old maps. Sure if you look right around spawn there's not much but travel outwards for a minute or two and you'll find plenty of Iron still available.
I actually have a full stack of Iron Blocks on an SMP server right now just sitting there waiting. In addition I have 2 full stacks of rail. So I have to say that on SMP Iron is also not a major issue.
Also, there seems to be a major tear in the community regarding this, "Iron Issue". I'm glad that this has sparked so much interest. With such varying opinions on both sides maybe the Mojang team will have a look at it.
You're using the word "overpowered" without any understanding of what it means.
Something being overpowered in a game means one of two things-
-it's existence trivializes what is supposed to be a challenge
-it's existence makes other items/classes/powers in the game irrelevant, because it is always better. (ie, it is a dominant strategy)
As for the first, Minecraft is balanced around iron. If the game was going to be made harder, it wouldn't be by making us go to stone tools, it would be by just buffing the monsters. Iron is the middle tier tool, which makes it a logical place to balance around. Otherwise, it would be too easy for people who have found diamond. Minecraft also has difficulty levels, if you don't like where 'normal' is balanced at.
For the second- it's still very possible to run out of iron, meaning that stone tools are still relevant. Stone is also virtually omnipresent, so it's sheer abundance gives it something that iron doesn't have. If you run out of iron while out exploring, you can just grab some stone. Diamond tools are also much better than iron tools, so you'll obviously be using those if you have the diamonds for it. The only irrelevant class of tools is wood, but that's okay. There's no room on the ladder for anything lower than stone (since stone is near omnipresent anyway), so wood is fine purely as a "use once just to get a stone pick" tier of tools.
Finally, to cap this off- don't confuse difficult with time consumption. Making players spend twice as much time branch mining to get iron doesn't make the game harder.
I agree with you. We all now have a lot more options regarding what we want to do and how we choose to collect resources. Not to mention how this will drastically change certain maps (Skyblock anyone?). Do we make a mob trap, go beast and fight mobs at the surface, or go underground? Now we can choose!
The only thing is many of us experienced Minecrafters have been building for quite a while and already have multiple mob traps.
I'm just concerned that the game will get too easy for experienced players who now have automatically generating iron and gold farms for easy access to unlimited weapons,armor,tools, and ingots.