What I want to see in Survival is different classes that do different stuff better (I know there's classes in Infiniminer, but I've never gotten it to work so I don't know), kind of like in Killing Floor but a little more forceful.
Say there's eight of you. Three of you are the "resource" class, who has extra storage and can mine stuff quicker. So you all run the **** off to find stuff. The two "builder" classes build stuff quicker and using less resources, so they chop down a tree or two and start building the defensive structure until the resourcers come back with stone. The "crafter" class guy is taking spare wood that the builders have collected to manufacture wooden bows and arrows, and will start making iron weapons as the resources come in (and steel later on). The two "soldier" classes can easily fight off natural predators (animals) protecting valuable resources, and are the only class that can use steel weapons (or higher, as I imagine a long game would require more than three tiers of weaponry).
If there's the inclusion of food as a resource? Farmers. The ability to trade gold for other resources? Traders.
What Notch has here is the potential to make a really great, very deep game. This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg I'm describing here. Think of everything a settlement needs, and imagine how it'd work in the game. Then add zombies.
Perfection.
More resources for higher tiers of weapon? Why not? A levelling system based on EXP earned in a game? Hell yeah. This should be like a mini RPG. That's what I'd love.
COUPLED WITH THIS, I think there should just be an editing-disabled version of Survival for pre-made maps (in my brain, I'm thinking about my No Mercy replica. :tongue.gif:)
Of course, each class should be able to do everything, but not as well as a specialist class. If your classes are too specialized, you risk boredom.
Personally, I'd combine Crafter and Trader. They sound like they'd have the least to do, so they'd be less useful on their own. Together, though, they'd be more useful.
I don't think every class should be able to do everything, but some classes should overlap (like builders and resourcers for example, who can do generally the same stuff but better than each other). This was my problem with Killing Floor; everyone could do everything well enough that, say, being a class other than the engineer didn't slow down welding doors shut enough that it was extremely useful to be an engineer. That, and welding doors wasn't a big part of the game anyway.
And I was thinking that, to avoid monotony and allow flexibility of play, allow people to respawn as a different class every... ten, fifteen minutes or something, but incur an EXP penalty for doing so.
I dislike this idea. Minecraft strikes me as the "simple rules, deep strategy" type of game. Adding classes lessens the contrast of that, which is bad.
The reasons games like Infiniminer and TF2 can pull off classes is because they're a lot simplier in other areas. TF2 is extremely simple. The goal is always to defend certain points. ALWAYs. Infiniminer is no where near as advanced an Minecraft in the ability to build things. I can see people building giant forts, mazes, underground fortresses in Minecraft. You'll never get that Infiniminer.
I think the real problem is class dependence. From what you described, you're basically forced to have one of each class or you'll lose vs a team that does.
Also consider FFA Survival. All of a sudden classes become a burden, really hurting the mode, since most people will be playing alone or in pairs, possibly teams of 3.
It sounds like you want Minecraft to be some 3d rougelike with crazy building. If you read Notch's Survival blog post, it appears Notch wants the game to go towards an action fast-paced simple direction (250ms attack speed, only 2 weapon/armour tiers, etc etc). You sound like you want drawn out, long, slow games.
The only way I'd even begin to consider classes a not horrible idea, is if there is a "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" class. Otherwise it really does seem like a terrible idea that will subtract from the game.
I don't really want to see fixed classes, although I do think that very... uh, solid and large skill packages should be picked.
'Farmer' is too many things in one. It doesn't offer enough choice.
'+5% move speed' is too minor and puny. I don't know about you, but choosing between things like this has always seemed so... boring. I don't really care about moving 5% faster, or having 1 more hit point, especially if the game's going to tend to be fast-paced or whatnot anyway.
So tell me what you think about things like;
[Double Carrying Capacity]
[Double HP]
[Double Knockback, Damage, or Attack Speed] (or whatever. Things related to attacking.)
[+50% Unburdened Movement Speed]
[+50% Unburdened Jumping Height]
[+100% Unburdened Swimming Speed]
[+30 seconds Underwater Breathing]
So the 'unburdened' ones mean if you aren't carrying a ton you'll move faster. Maybe you still get the bonus when carrying a lot, I'm not sure. Could also have something like
[-50% Effect of Weight] (so you can carry lots and suffer half-penalty)
Anyway, you might be able to pick like THREE of these from the start (there might be more to pick from, or some might cost two slots, etc) and through this you would decide upon your own various specializations. It would make things not quite so clear to your allies, but you could tell them "I'd like to do X"... or whatever.
[Ability to plant stuff]
[Ability to craft stone]
could also be done, if you wanted... locked abilities.
[Crafts wood twice as fast]
could also also be done, regardless of the locked abilities or not.
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"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
I don't know about this.. I mean, it practically means that you -need- a fixed amount of players on your server in order to being able to play the game. So that you have all the classes.
I don't know about this.. I mean, it practically means that you -need- a fixed amount of players on your server in order to being able to play the game. So that you have all the classes.
thats how it goes down i guess if it goes this way
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Quote from Kilgallon »
Quote from MomizerRox »
Quote from ZarroTsu »
Creepa stole ma bike. [SSSS]
Sooo... when's the next seecret Friday update topic going up? =[
Hopefully most of the classes will be optional things that make it easier for you.
Want bows? Get a bowyer or something of the sort.
HOWEVER, if you don't have someone who can make bows, then you can STILL FIGHT as long as you have some kind of weapon crafter! (Swords, or even simpler - clubs!)
EVEN STILL, if you have NO weapons and NO armour, you might have someone who's good at fist fighting or is really tough.
AND EVEN WITHOUT THAT, if NOBODY can fight, you have a really interesting challenge on your hands! Clearly if you have none of the above classes, you have a lot of speedy, or gathery, or buildy classes!
You need to build a fortress that can withstand attacks as opposed to aggressively fighting back!
Or maybe you'll be constantly on the run, building quick barricades or huts or taking shelter in caves on occasion.
So for everything you feel unable to do, you should be able to solve that problem through some different method.
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"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Why have someone else make a bow for you when you are capable of making one? and you get a bow as a default weapon. I do think it should be a sword or a wooden club.
And the Correct term is "Bow Crafter"
But turning off the ability to craft or attack will lead to interesting game-play.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Kilgallon »
Quote from MomizerRox »
Quote from ZarroTsu »
Creepa stole ma bike. [SSSS]
Sooo... when's the next seecret Friday update topic going up? =[
Why have someone else make a bow for you when you are capable of making one? and you get a bow as a default weapon. I do think it should be a sword or a wooden club.
And the Correct term is "Bow Crafter"
But turning off the ability to craft or attack will lead to interesting game-play.
Menen, I believe the bow will only be default for now, so that it can be tested before crafting is implemented.
And... uh, here, just let me show you.
1. I learned the term 'Bowyer' from Dwarf Fortress (maybe - it's the first source that comes to mind) which I trust. It's awesome!
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowyer and yes I know Wikipedia is not a source you would reference for a university professor but we are on a Minecraft forum so it's good enough.
3. Close, Snowman... Fletchers make arrows, as far as I know! But you were closer than Menen ;p
If this was Toggleable or scripted to recognise whether there were enough players to justify Classes, I'd like it.
Also Bowyers make the bows and the strings that tie with them, fletchers make the arrows and feathertails. Smiths make the heads. But thats taking it too far though.
A Crafter is enough. Crafters who build ALL equipment, from pickaxes, swords, right up to armour.
Menen, I believe the bow will only be default for now, so that it can be tested before crafting is implemented.
And... uh, here, just let me show you.
1. I learned the term 'Bowyer' from Dwarf Fortress (maybe - it's the first source that comes to mind) which I trust. It's awesome!
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowyer and yes I know Wikipedia is not a source you would reference for a university professor but we are on a Minecraft forum so it's good enough.
3. Close, Snowman... Fletchers make arrows, as far as I know! But you were closer than Menen ;p
The only way I'd even begin to consider classes a not horrible idea, is if there is a "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" class. Otherwise it really does seem like a terrible idea that will subtract from the game.
I was just thinking, what about exp for special things, like. Crafting exp, which you'd be able to gain by crafting, and the more you craft the better inventory or craft-bar you'd get, perhaps a character with a lvl 5 crafting skill could be able to craft 3x3 in his inventory?
Farming exp=Bigger harvests, animal husbandry and stuff. imo, that would solve this problem, without making it waay to complicated. You get better at what you do ;D
I think this idea is leaning in the right direction if classes or specialization is desired. The problem with classes is that it DOES limit how you can play, and also forces multiplayer playing on people who might otherwise prefer to play alone. This, I hear, is why that multiplayer final fantasy game failed to be a success, this is why I gave up my WoW account, and this is why I'd stop playing minecraft.
Having players improve at certain things through practice, though, could lend specialization to the game in an optional way.. players could group together with each of them being more experienced (and therefore better) at their certain tasks, and other players could just run around doing everything, and managing just fine, too.
Another way of adding specialization without forcing multiplayer or limiting people is to have the items required for a task be somewhat harder to get. If there's a choice between making a hoe, and making a sword, but not both, right away, then people get to choose which is more important to them, and in a group of players, maybe they'll choose different things. Of course, you wouldn't want this with tools as simple as hoes or swords, probably higher up on a tech tree, but that's just an example.
I disagree with the idea of classes. A "class" is an arbitrary mechanism devised in videogames. It isn't even accurate to what the word "class" means. If anything, they mean to say "profession". Even then, I'm not good at drawing because I'm an artist, I'm an artist because I'm good at drawing! It's our actions and our proficiencies which define what we do, what we choose as our professions. We've got a lot of different ways of playing this game. People will filter into their own gameplay styles on their own. We don't need a preconstructed system for that.
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
I rather see a minor skill system put into place, increasing in intervals at every skill level.
Each skill (Crafting, fighting, mining, ext.) Would have 10 levels, and a player only has 15 levels to split (Automatically lvl 1 in everything) between skills and can become specialized, if they max out the 15 levels, they can swap levels around by training one skill then the other skills, and it will derive first from the least used skill level besides itself when choosing which levels to take away, this way you can specialize, yet change when needed.
These levels would determine what they can do, for example a level 1 miner can mine stone, but cannot mine coal, which would be level 2, and iron which would be level 3 or 4, crafting could only make wood, then stone, then steel, then diamond.
Classes would be too stuck in one aspect for such a multitasking game (even in large multiplayer servers) and would railroad you into doing one task.
Say there's eight of you. Three of you are the "resource" class, who has extra storage and can mine stuff quicker. So you all run the **** off to find stuff. The two "builder" classes build stuff quicker and using less resources, so they chop down a tree or two and start building the defensive structure until the resourcers come back with stone. The "crafter" class guy is taking spare wood that the builders have collected to manufacture wooden bows and arrows, and will start making iron weapons as the resources come in (and steel later on). The two "soldier" classes can easily fight off natural predators (animals) protecting valuable resources, and are the only class that can use steel weapons (or higher, as I imagine a long game would require more than three tiers of weaponry).
If there's the inclusion of food as a resource? Farmers. The ability to trade gold for other resources? Traders.
What Notch has here is the potential to make a really great, very deep game. This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg I'm describing here. Think of everything a settlement needs, and imagine how it'd work in the game. Then add zombies.
Perfection.
More resources for higher tiers of weapon? Why not? A levelling system based on EXP earned in a game? Hell yeah. This should be like a mini RPG. That's what I'd love.
COUPLED WITH THIS, I think there should just be an editing-disabled version of Survival for pre-made maps (in my brain, I'm thinking about my No Mercy replica. :tongue.gif:)
Personally, I'd combine Crafter and Trader. They sound like they'd have the least to do, so they'd be less useful on their own. Together, though, they'd be more useful.
Other than that, I like it. I like it a lot.
And I was thinking that, to avoid monotony and allow flexibility of play, allow people to respawn as a different class every... ten, fifteen minutes or something, but incur an EXP penalty for doing so.
Relic of a bygone age.
The reasons games like Infiniminer and TF2 can pull off classes is because they're a lot simplier in other areas. TF2 is extremely simple. The goal is always to defend certain points. ALWAYs. Infiniminer is no where near as advanced an Minecraft in the ability to build things. I can see people building giant forts, mazes, underground fortresses in Minecraft. You'll never get that Infiniminer.
I think the real problem is class dependence. From what you described, you're basically forced to have one of each class or you'll lose vs a team that does.
Also consider FFA Survival. All of a sudden classes become a burden, really hurting the mode, since most people will be playing alone or in pairs, possibly teams of 3.
It sounds like you want Minecraft to be some 3d rougelike with crazy building. If you read Notch's Survival blog post, it appears Notch wants the game to go towards an action fast-paced simple direction (250ms attack speed, only 2 weapon/armour tiers, etc etc). You sound like you want drawn out, long, slow games.
The only way I'd even begin to consider classes a not horrible idea, is if there is a "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" class. Otherwise it really does seem like a terrible idea that will subtract from the game.
Classes make games boring because you cant do that much with just 1 Class.
I don't really want to see fixed classes, although I do think that very... uh, solid and large skill packages should be picked.
'Farmer' is too many things in one. It doesn't offer enough choice.
'+5% move speed' is too minor and puny. I don't know about you, but choosing between things like this has always seemed so... boring. I don't really care about moving 5% faster, or having 1 more hit point, especially if the game's going to tend to be fast-paced or whatnot anyway.
So tell me what you think about things like;
[Double Carrying Capacity]
[Double HP]
[Double Knockback, Damage, or Attack Speed] (or whatever. Things related to attacking.)
[+50% Unburdened Movement Speed]
[+50% Unburdened Jumping Height]
[+100% Unburdened Swimming Speed]
[+30 seconds Underwater Breathing]
So the 'unburdened' ones mean if you aren't carrying a ton you'll move faster. Maybe you still get the bonus when carrying a lot, I'm not sure. Could also have something like
[-50% Effect of Weight] (so you can carry lots and suffer half-penalty)
Anyway, you might be able to pick like THREE of these from the start (there might be more to pick from, or some might cost two slots, etc) and through this you would decide upon your own various specializations. It would make things not quite so clear to your allies, but you could tell them "I'd like to do X"... or whatever.
[Ability to plant stuff]
[Ability to craft stone]
could also be done, if you wanted... locked abilities.
[Crafts wood twice as fast]
could also also be done, regardless of the locked abilities or not.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMsExmLc4_w
thats how it goes down i guess if it goes this way
Hopefully most of the classes will be optional things that make it easier for you.
Want bows? Get a bowyer or something of the sort.
HOWEVER, if you don't have someone who can make bows, then you can STILL FIGHT as long as you have some kind of weapon crafter! (Swords, or even simpler - clubs!)
EVEN STILL, if you have NO weapons and NO armour, you might have someone who's good at fist fighting or is really tough.
AND EVEN WITHOUT THAT, if NOBODY can fight, you have a really interesting challenge on your hands! Clearly if you have none of the above classes, you have a lot of speedy, or gathery, or buildy classes!
You need to build a fortress that can withstand attacks as opposed to aggressively fighting back!
Or maybe you'll be constantly on the run, building quick barricades or huts or taking shelter in caves on occasion.
So for everything you feel unable to do, you should be able to solve that problem through some different method.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
And the Correct term is "Bow Crafter"
But turning off the ability to craft or attack will lead to interesting game-play.
No, the correct term is Fletcher.
And... uh, here, just let me show you.
1. I learned the term 'Bowyer' from Dwarf Fortress (maybe - it's the first source that comes to mind) which I trust. It's awesome!
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowyer and yes I know Wikipedia is not a source you would reference for a university professor but we are on a Minecraft forum so it's good enough.
3. Close, Snowman... Fletchers make arrows, as far as I know! But you were closer than Menen ;p
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... fter&go=Go
5. As you can see, it doesn't exist. ... And I don't know why these are numbered.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Also Bowyers make the bows and the strings that tie with them, fletchers make the arrows and feathertails. Smiths make the heads. But thats taking it too far though.
A Crafter is enough. Crafters who build ALL equipment, from pickaxes, swords, right up to armour.
Oooh Pickaxes - toools.....
Oh, thought fletchers also made bows.
You learn something new every day. :biggrin.gif:
Like a duck?
I think this idea is leaning in the right direction if classes or specialization is desired. The problem with classes is that it DOES limit how you can play, and also forces multiplayer playing on people who might otherwise prefer to play alone. This, I hear, is why that multiplayer final fantasy game failed to be a success, this is why I gave up my WoW account, and this is why I'd stop playing minecraft.
Having players improve at certain things through practice, though, could lend specialization to the game in an optional way.. players could group together with each of them being more experienced (and therefore better) at their certain tasks, and other players could just run around doing everything, and managing just fine, too.
Another way of adding specialization without forcing multiplayer or limiting people is to have the items required for a task be somewhat harder to get. If there's a choice between making a hoe, and making a sword, but not both, right away, then people get to choose which is more important to them, and in a group of players, maybe they'll choose different things. Of course, you wouldn't want this with tools as simple as hoes or swords, probably higher up on a tech tree, but that's just an example.
Each skill (Crafting, fighting, mining, ext.) Would have 10 levels, and a player only has 15 levels to split (Automatically lvl 1 in everything) between skills and can become specialized, if they max out the 15 levels, they can swap levels around by training one skill then the other skills, and it will derive first from the least used skill level besides itself when choosing which levels to take away, this way you can specialize, yet change when needed.
These levels would determine what they can do, for example a level 1 miner can mine stone, but cannot mine coal, which would be level 2, and iron which would be level 3 or 4, crafting could only make wood, then stone, then steel, then diamond.
Classes would be too stuck in one aspect for such a multitasking game (even in large multiplayer servers) and would railroad you into doing one task.