mhm...
elderscrolls...
fallout...
Don't see anything there.
and are you dissing DnD?
I'm sorry, but if that is so, i hate you.
Sandbox is described as "You can do anything you want as long as it's inside the box". RPGs can boast all the open-endness they want but it's still a limited world. Not saying they're bad, just that they have their limits. Hell, even Minecraft isn't that limitless. Why do you think people ***** on this forum so much?
Quote from Rot Brain »
Notch said he doesnt like RPG's.
/thread
I'm pretty sure Notch played and liked Dragon Age. Therefore, you are a liar.
Quote from Deaven »
Quote from Maksago »
Don't force people to do things that WASTES THEIR ****ING TIME.
If you want to do something practical, get off Minecraft. Minecraft is a game. Games are for fun. Games are for wasting time.
This part bugged me on the Why your RPG ideas won't work for minecraft and on this one.
A bank will loan you money, and you decide how to spend it. Sometimes you waste it, sometimes you spend it well. It depends on what you think is worth buying. If you are not carefull, you will owe the bank a lot of money, and you might not be able to pay it back. Your debt to the bank increases every moment you owe them money.
Life is like a bank. It loans you time, and you decide how to spend it. Sometimes you will waste it, sometimes you will use it well. It depends on what you think is worth your time. For every moment you are alive, life is taking back time. You will run out of time, and that is when you die.
What is practical to someone might be impractical to someone else.
That is deep. Probably the best thing anybody could say about life.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Minecraft. The game where you can have fun building things, but only if you have fun like everyone else.*
A system of persistent growth already exists within Minecraft. Every block you place of your castle/mansion is progress and growth. Every swing at the cavern wall to unearth ore is progress. Every step you take into the unknown is progress.
I personally dislike a system that hinders the free movement and creative potential that this game provides.
There are many possible RPG elements that I believe WILL work in this game, but a vast majority should be ruled out. I don't want to have to hack at wood for 15 minutes to be competent enough to build a diamond axe. I should be able to do that through my own thought. I shouldn't feel like the game is placing an arbitrary nerf on me when I'm facing an enemy. Given the already random nature of encounters in Minecraft, I think this is an unnecessary addition.
Here's some things I wish to highlight.
If we are talking about a player designed adventure mode; the creator of the adventure should be able to employ any damned system he sees fit. He shouldn't be limited to "not have experience" because his players don't want it. It's his world and his adventure. If he wants an experience system; he should be allowed to have it and be hated for it. Now obviously, there should be obvious limits; but assuming that players are to be able to script their adventures; I don't think it's too questionable that they be able to script in their own systems anyway (depending on how powerful the scripting engine is).
People will find some way around an obstacle given the tools around them are powerful enough. Trying to cry and limit power is not going to do anything. Now; we are done talking about adventure mode.
In the presence of survival, almost none of the gameplay mechanics that make up traditional role playing games have a use here. We're talking about a game where the limits are with items at hand and player knowledge (and good old wiki). I don't want to be tied down by an RPG grind system where I have to chop 10 wood to get the wood axe then 25 wood to get the wood shovel then 50 wood to get the wood hoe then 100 wood to get the wood pickaxe. Then have to craft 10 wooden pickaxes to unlock a stone pickaxe, craft 10 stone pickaxes to unlock coal mining, craft 25 more stone pickaxes to unlock etc.
That is... for lack of a better term... COMPLETE ********.
A system of currency is also fickle. Even if money made prevalent use ingame. How does one balance it. How much is a block of wood worth? 3 gold coins? 5? 10? how about that iron? 15 gold? 20? Unless there is an arbitrary value placed on worth, a system of currency will not work. Sure... One can simply say... base it off rarity.
Which works in a way... A block of dirt is 1 gold... so is stone.... now coal? Ah. Coal is prevalent, found one every 16 stone. So... Ok, the cost of coal is 16 gold. Is this too much? Too little? according to rarity, just right... We shrug and move on... Now Iron... Ah! Iron, found once every 32 stone. Therefore it's cost is 32 gold. Still not bad right?
Redstone, prevalent and easy to find in lower elevations, it is about as rare as iron, but you find it in chunks of 3 or 4, so redstone is 8~12 gold... Not bad so far... Diamond... Here's a problem. Diamond is found about once every 1000 or so stone. By this logic, It should cost 1000 gold... wait... max stack size is 64... how do you... OK, it's too expensive and rare, you don't want people just buying it... Ok.. I'll take that... Now how about lapis? It's about as rare as diamond but drops in chunks of... say.. 8... Ok, That'll make each lapis 125 gold... Wait... That's almost 2 stacks of gold. You don't want anything more expensive than a stack due to coding reasons...
Alright OP, you trollin for some intellectual discussion? If so, you might want to go back and read what your responding to.
Classes refutement-
Actually, to be honest, there are quite a few people who are skilled at almost everything they try, and classes force players to decide a strength early on, one they may later regret. For example Shogun2:TW forces the player to make a choice early on in clan warfare, on which area they want to start with. If someone didn't know, they might choose a unit they don't like, such as katana samurai over Yari calvary, or a similar unit choice. This puts them behind, and forced to play in a way that is not necessarily fun for the player. That is bad.
Civs refutement-
Your idea that Civs are just a couple buildings with neutral mobs is silly. along with the idea of shops. Where do these items they trade come from? Do NPCs farm them somehow or just make them poof from air. Do they turn hostile if I commit mass-arson? Do the people do anything if I wall off half the town from the other half?
Human mobs-
This is a workable idea, if you did something similar to the sims and made them make special noises near other humans, but again, then we get into the civ refutement.
Grinding-
THe skinner box has no hold here. In the land of the minecraft, we prefer to be rewarded for building the enterprise, not for mining 10 to the 136th power blocks so I can use diamond picks. Grinding is a stalling tactic used by RPGs when they feel they lack content. In addition, you seem to have mistaken work for fun. I do not enjoy being forced to do repetitive tasks. I do so in minecraft because I need to do a little work to get the cool stuff, like fighting off a endless horde of spiders and zombies, going.
Equipment stuff-
And your suggesting once I get diamonds and can obliterate any enemy with the force of a half dozen stacks of arrows I should start over as a new class? Why? So I can grind and not enjoy having to do boring stuff?
Economy-
Economies are good and bad. There is a mod used in LoL that allows players to make chests that buy and sell things. That is good, since it allows players more avenues of creativity, and it doesn't involve things blinking into existence like traditional NPC economies. Traditional, blinky, economies on the other hand invariably lead to inflation. iConomy, in one now closed server led to people carrying huge stacks of food that turned every battle into an endurance match. It was annoying beyond reason.
Stats-
Are bad. See grinding. Stats that are pointless, or only serve as a barrier to fun are not good. In fact, they are bad.
Weapons variety-
And you should read the entire argument before you try to counter it in order to not look like an idiot. In addition, added with stats, you end up with endgame weapons that will eventually be used to obliterate the lower-levels if unbalanced, if balanced, they tend to blend into a punch of palette swapped swords.
Really bugs me how OP is a collaboration of poorly constructed rebuttals; almost as if this thread was more on looking for an excuse to argue against a well written post.
Some rebuttals completely disregard the RPG flaws Kira pointed out and go straight to insisting that RPG ideas should be implemented, especially the "argument" the unsupported conclusion to add massive varieties of weapons, which is why I didn't bother finishing replying to each part on my previous post.
Quote from Maksago »
All the "different" weapons aren't that different, all the new items are weaker,faster, long-reaching, complicated or stronger versions of something that already exists.
Then make different varieties of weapons. Maces, clubs, spears, swords, axes. There is just a few examples.
Save The RPGs for you local minecraft server set up exactly for this reason. So you RPGers go enjoy your minecraft servers that do exactly this and are even more inter active the ai ones would be. Here is want you wanted, so go for it.
you can't have RPG-like progression because in order to have that, the world you are in must be constructed to guide that progression. Minecraft has no guides, you explore whatever direction you want.
You can't have RPG-like NPCs because minecrft doesn't have communication between NPCs or anyway of implying that 9except possibly by just having 2 NPCs stand near each other. As or "they do things like go to shops, etc" what if you block their path or randomly tear down their building for supplies? Will they get angry? how will they show that? What if you build them a new BETTER shop? will they get happy? how would they even recognize it? The limits on AI are far more restrictive than the limits on the player's creativity. you can't possibly create an AI that IS smart enough to handle the player's potential creativity, so the only possible solution would be to limit the player's creativity, and that is completely unacceptable.
As for the "classes don't need to have penalties, just bonuses!" you're being naive. If you give a bonus to one option, you've just raised the bar for what features the player expects, it doesn't matter that the bar is higher than what the current bar is, to the player, a bar is simply, "this is the highest you can get" and everything else is judged off of that bar. Therefor every OTHER option will be seen as no longer meeting that bar.
Currently, i can be the best at anything I want to be, simply by changing which tool I'm using. If you pose classes, then I can only be the best at the particular option I selected at the beginning of the game. What if I change my mind and feel like becoming better at something else? I have to start my game over?
Oh my god, I just now noticed your response to the weapons issue. You not only failed to address the issue raised, but literally gave an example of exactly the issue being raised. Mace hammer, spear, whatever the **** doesn't matter, you click on an enemy to use it. The only difference 90% of this junk will do is act as a reskinned sword that has different damage. Even in RPGS, when you have a wide variety of weapons, this variety only makes a cdifference because the player is LIMITED in what type of weapons they can even use effectively or at all. So attempting to make variety of weapons work requires placing LIMITS on the player.
TL;DR
LIMITS = BAD. Minecraft is about creativity. Limits are counterproductive to creativity.
RPGs = LIMITS. This is not debatable. It is a fact. In Minecrft, you can be the best at whatever your own skill at the game and the material you have gathered lets you be.
Since RPGs = LIMITS = BAD therefor RPGs = BAD. Mathematically proven.
Wow, I guess there really is no point arguing with narrow-minded people.
All you guys think is "I HAET RPGS THEY SHOULDN'T BE IN MEINCRAFT CUZ ITS NOT RPGCRAFT"
Ah, this little kid gambit.
"EYE AM GOING TO DESCRIBE THE OTHER PERSON'S ARGUMENT IN ALL CAPS AND MISSPELL SOME WORDZ SO I CAN MISREPRESENT ALL OF THE VALID ARGUMENTS THEY ARE MAKING AND MAKE THEM SOUND VOLATILE AND STUPID"
Stop that ****, that's not how you convey your ideas and thoughts. Other than making a ******** rant all you have been doing is accentuating the negative and complaining, and not explaining GOOD reasons why some RPG elements should be added into the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Trollcalling is the act of trying to convince other users that a poster is a troll and/or accusing other users of being trolls. This is a bannable offense. Please report trolling, do not advertise it or react to it.
Off Topic: No where did I say I wanted RPG elements, I was simply stating why the RPG elements would work. I do not want RPG elements in the main game, I only want them in Adventure Mode, if that ever comes.
Erm...it's a sandbox game. That means you build in it, and you aren't forced to stick to a story.
If you want to, join an RP server and RP to your heart's content.
Just about every single RPG that I have played, to continue on, after you finish all the side quests, you go and do more of the story line. I highly doubt that you would level up enough during the side quests to barely get through the main story, so you would have to grind.
Also, how would you start over in Minecraft? You would know exactly how to do it, and you'd get it done far faster than you would have if you didn't know what to do. In RPGs, the limiting factor is the level system, like getting x amount of experience to get to y level.
For the record: I support an RPG Maker/Starcraft Campaign Editor sort of system in Minecraft. IMO, that will bring Minecraft from its current severely-limited-and-eventually-boring possibilities into its full potential as a sandbox game, enabling control over far more than we already have as well as custom-tailored games for every player or even entire servers.
That said, RPG elements do not fit the vanilla game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from yoshi9048 »
If this thread were a girlfriend, it'd do everything but anal.
Choo CHOO!
Here comes the Adventure Mode Train!
Choo CHOO!
You guys need to stop thinking this is going to effect Survival, when Adventure would be a much, MUCH, MUCH better candidate.
Congratulations on completely misunderstanding adventure mode. If you actually bothered to read what it was rather than basing your thoughts solely off the title, you wouldn't be mentioning it. Adventure mode is the same as the "Dungeons and Levers" mode. It means that you cannot edit blocks, just use levers buttons etc and use items. There may be a randomly generated dungeon option, but it will be oriented mostly around puzzle solving and user generated content. NOWHERE does it mention anything along the lines of leveling, classes, or civilizations.
For the record: I support an RPG Maker/Starcraft Campaign Editor sort of system in Minecraft. IMO, that will bring Minecraft from its current severely-limited-and-eventually-boring possibilities into its full potential as a sandbox game, enabling control over far more than we already have as well as custom-tailored games for every player or even entire servers.
That said, RPG elements do not fit the vanilla game.
Nobody?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from yoshi9048 »
If this thread were a girlfriend, it'd do everything but anal.
On the other hand, you can't beat Lavos on your first encounter (Ocean Palace) in Chrono trigger without some serious level grinding (or very heavy glitch abuse that isn't really possible without Tool assistance).
Find me one JRPG suggestion. JUST ONE. ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM will do.
You can't compare a JRPG like Chrono Trigger to a western RPG, of which Minecraft already has the backbone for.
Anyway, what makes Kira and PyroNox a better judge of what works in a sandbox game than myself? Post count? Minecraft ALREADY has RPG elements in it. A few more will NOT ruin the game.
I'm not saying sandbox survival should have a storyline or a final boss, not that that would actually ruin the game any more than having normal enemies.
I'm not saying ALL RPG elements would fit Minecraft, but that's because Minecraft isn't an RPG; But some of them would definitely fit Minecraft, because it's already got other, complementary RPG elements.
Sandbox is described as "You can do anything you want as long as it's inside the box". RPGs can boast all the open-endness they want but it's still a limited world. Not saying they're bad, just that they have their limits. Hell, even Minecraft isn't that limitless. Why do you think people ***** on this forum so much?
I'm pretty sure Notch played and liked Dragon Age. Therefore, you are a liar.
That is deep. Probably the best thing anybody could say about life.
*Everyone else meaning me and me only.
A system of persistent growth already exists within Minecraft. Every block you place of your castle/mansion is progress and growth. Every swing at the cavern wall to unearth ore is progress. Every step you take into the unknown is progress.
I personally dislike a system that hinders the free movement and creative potential that this game provides.
There are many possible RPG elements that I believe WILL work in this game, but a vast majority should be ruled out. I don't want to have to hack at wood for 15 minutes to be competent enough to build a diamond axe. I should be able to do that through my own thought. I shouldn't feel like the game is placing an arbitrary nerf on me when I'm facing an enemy. Given the already random nature of encounters in Minecraft, I think this is an unnecessary addition.
Here's some things I wish to highlight.
If we are talking about a player designed adventure mode; the creator of the adventure should be able to employ any damned system he sees fit. He shouldn't be limited to "not have experience" because his players don't want it. It's his world and his adventure. If he wants an experience system; he should be allowed to have it and be hated for it. Now obviously, there should be obvious limits; but assuming that players are to be able to script their adventures; I don't think it's too questionable that they be able to script in their own systems anyway (depending on how powerful the scripting engine is).
People will find some way around an obstacle given the tools around them are powerful enough. Trying to cry and limit power is not going to do anything. Now; we are done talking about adventure mode.
In the presence of survival, almost none of the gameplay mechanics that make up traditional role playing games have a use here. We're talking about a game where the limits are with items at hand and player knowledge (and good old wiki). I don't want to be tied down by an RPG grind system where I have to chop 10 wood to get the wood axe then 25 wood to get the wood shovel then 50 wood to get the wood hoe then 100 wood to get the wood pickaxe. Then have to craft 10 wooden pickaxes to unlock a stone pickaxe, craft 10 stone pickaxes to unlock coal mining, craft 25 more stone pickaxes to unlock etc.
That is... for lack of a better term... COMPLETE ********.
A system of currency is also fickle. Even if money made prevalent use ingame. How does one balance it. How much is a block of wood worth? 3 gold coins? 5? 10? how about that iron? 15 gold? 20? Unless there is an arbitrary value placed on worth, a system of currency will not work. Sure... One can simply say... base it off rarity.
Which works in a way... A block of dirt is 1 gold... so is stone.... now coal? Ah. Coal is prevalent, found one every 16 stone. So... Ok, the cost of coal is 16 gold. Is this too much? Too little? according to rarity, just right... We shrug and move on... Now Iron... Ah! Iron, found once every 32 stone. Therefore it's cost is 32 gold. Still not bad right?
Redstone, prevalent and easy to find in lower elevations, it is about as rare as iron, but you find it in chunks of 3 or 4, so redstone is 8~12 gold... Not bad so far... Diamond... Here's a problem. Diamond is found about once every 1000 or so stone. By this logic, It should cost 1000 gold... wait... max stack size is 64... how do you... OK, it's too expensive and rare, you don't want people just buying it... Ok.. I'll take that... Now how about lapis? It's about as rare as diamond but drops in chunks of... say.. 8... Ok, That'll make each lapis 125 gold... Wait... That's almost 2 stacks of gold. You don't want anything more expensive than a stack due to coding reasons...
See the issue here?
The TL;DR version?
Survival - No
Adventure - Yes
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Alright OP, you trollin for some intellectual discussion? If so, you might want to go back and read what your responding to.
Classes refutement-
Actually, to be honest, there are quite a few people who are skilled at almost everything they try, and classes force players to decide a strength early on, one they may later regret. For example Shogun2:TW forces the player to make a choice early on in clan warfare, on which area they want to start with. If someone didn't know, they might choose a unit they don't like, such as katana samurai over Yari calvary, or a similar unit choice. This puts them behind, and forced to play in a way that is not necessarily fun for the player. That is bad.
Civs refutement-
Your idea that Civs are just a couple buildings with neutral mobs is silly. along with the idea of shops. Where do these items they trade come from? Do NPCs farm them somehow or just make them poof from air. Do they turn hostile if I commit mass-arson? Do the people do anything if I wall off half the town from the other half?
Human mobs-
This is a workable idea, if you did something similar to the sims and made them make special noises near other humans, but again, then we get into the civ refutement.
Grinding-
THe skinner box has no hold here. In the land of the minecraft, we prefer to be rewarded for building the enterprise, not for mining 10 to the 136th power blocks so I can use diamond picks. Grinding is a stalling tactic used by RPGs when they feel they lack content. In addition, you seem to have mistaken work for fun. I do not enjoy being forced to do repetitive tasks. I do so in minecraft because I need to do a little work to get the cool stuff, like fighting off a endless horde of spiders and zombies, going.
Equipment stuff-
And your suggesting once I get diamonds and can obliterate any enemy with the force of a half dozen stacks of arrows I should start over as a new class? Why? So I can grind and not enjoy having to do boring stuff?
Economy-
Economies are good and bad. There is a mod used in LoL that allows players to make chests that buy and sell things. That is good, since it allows players more avenues of creativity, and it doesn't involve things blinking into existence like traditional NPC economies. Traditional, blinky, economies on the other hand invariably lead to inflation. iConomy, in one now closed server led to people carrying huge stacks of food that turned every battle into an endurance match. It was annoying beyond reason.
Stats-
Are bad. See grinding. Stats that are pointless, or only serve as a barrier to fun are not good. In fact, they are bad.
Weapons variety-
And you should read the entire argument before you try to counter it in order to not look like an idiot. In addition, added with stats, you end up with endgame weapons that will eventually be used to obliterate the lower-levels if unbalanced, if balanced, they tend to blend into a punch of palette swapped swords.
Some rebuttals completely disregard the RPG flaws Kira pointed out and go straight to insisting that RPG ideas should be implemented, especially the
"argument"the unsupported conclusion to add massive varieties of weapons, which is why I didn't bother finishing replying to each part on my previous post.Nothing a little dynamite could not fix
All you guys think is "I HAET RPGS THEY SHOULDN'T BE IN MEINCRAFT CUZ ITS NOT RPGCRAFT"
THIS, THIS, THIS!
Ah, this little kid gambit.
"EYE AM GOING TO DESCRIBE THE OTHER PERSON'S ARGUMENT IN ALL CAPS AND MISSPELL SOME WORDZ SO I CAN MISREPRESENT ALL OF THE VALID ARGUMENTS THEY ARE MAKING AND MAKE THEM SOUND VOLATILE AND STUPID"
Stop that ****, that's not how you convey your ideas and thoughts. Other than making a ******** rant all you have been doing is accentuating the negative and complaining, and not explaining GOOD reasons why some RPG elements should be added into the game.
It's still only and opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0OtPNZX22RvZVeq4-dHa8GYKOc5lojKX
If you want to, join an RP server and RP to your heart's content.
Just about every single RPG that I have played, to continue on, after you finish all the side quests, you go and do more of the story line. I highly doubt that you would level up enough during the side quests to barely get through the main story, so you would have to grind.
Also, how would you start over in Minecraft? You would know exactly how to do it, and you'd get it done far faster than you would have if you didn't know what to do. In RPGs, the limiting factor is the level system, like getting x amount of experience to get to y level.
That said, RPG elements do not fit the vanilla game.
Congratulations on completely misunderstanding adventure mode. If you actually bothered to read what it was rather than basing your thoughts solely off the title, you wouldn't be mentioning it. Adventure mode is the same as the "Dungeons and Levers" mode. It means that you cannot edit blocks, just use levers buttons etc and use items. There may be a randomly generated dungeon option, but it will be oriented mostly around puzzle solving and user generated content. NOWHERE does it mention anything along the lines of leveling, classes, or civilizations.
Wiki topic
Edit: Or were you making up your own mode that you decided to call Adventure Mode? I doubt it since you implied that Notch had confirmed it.
tl;dr.
for both of the threads.
Nobody?
Find me one JRPG suggestion. JUST ONE. ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM will do.
You can't compare a JRPG like Chrono Trigger to a western RPG, of which Minecraft already has the backbone for.
Anyway, what makes Kira and PyroNox a better judge of what works in a sandbox game than myself? Post count? Minecraft ALREADY has RPG elements in it. A few more will NOT ruin the game.
I'm not saying sandbox survival should have a storyline or a final boss, not that that would actually ruin the game any more than having normal enemies.
I'm not saying ALL RPG elements would fit Minecraft, but that's because Minecraft isn't an RPG; But some of them would definitely fit Minecraft, because it's already got other, complementary RPG elements.
List?
And if you read, I support RPG elements...Just not in the current vanilla game.