I have a problem with iron. It's very common and allows you to make the very powerful iron armor VERY early in the game if you know what you're doing. Even a brand-new player might have full iron armor in a matter of days from starting the game. I myself spent more time playing the game before making my first crafting table than I did going from stone to iron tools (many times more, in fact). Now this very powerful iron armor (60% damage reduction) was nerfed when toughness was added to the game, but how much it's nerfed depends on the damage of an attack. It protects against zombies and skeletons just fine, but not creepers or vindicators. But making iron less common simply breaks other aspects of the game, as there are many recipes that rely on huge amounts of iron to work. My suggestion will fix all of these things without breaking anything.
Firstly, iron becomes much less common, and to replace it we have copper. You can make tools and armor with copper, and their power is between stone and iron. But more importantly, all of those non-equipment recipes that cost iron can now use copper instead. This includes buckets, minecarts, minecart rails, anvils, doors, bars, chains, lanterns, hoppers, pistons, and plenty more. You can make them with any metal, be it copper, iron, gold, or other.
Iron armor now has +1 toughness per piece, so that it offers good protection like it used to. For those who don't know, basic armor protection is 4% damage reduction per point of armor. So full iron armor (15 armor) offers 60% damage reduction. But the reduction is diminished by 2% per point of damage from an incoming attack. So if you get hit for 10 damage (less than a Vindicator attack), your 60% damage reduction is diminished to only 40%, and you take 6 damage (3 hearts). But with my suggestion to give toughness to Iron Armor, that means that Iron Armor is less affected by this reduction effect. For comparison, Diamond Armor provides +2 toughness per piece.
Iron ore would be more common in mountain biomes, and would occur at higher elevations (up to 96), making mountains a good place to scout for iron ore (which may appear on the surface), and providing the player a way to increase the amount of iron ore they encounter.
I would also want to add Pig Iron as a metal to the game. Piglins should give out Pig Iron ingots commonly in trade, enabling nether-only survival to build things such as hoppers, minecart rails, and other things which may cost large amounts of metal. But Pig Iron would not be craftable into equipment, and Piglins would not give out regular Iron ingots very often. This change will enable making structural metal available to the player in The Nether without giving them huge upgrades to their equipment for too cheap.
I did say that anvils can be made with both Copper and Pig Iron. This means that players can use these to extend the life of any enchanted tools they happen to find. I have other ideas for extending the capabilities of anvil repairing and enchanting, but I'll leave that for another suggestion.
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I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
Why make iron more rare when replacing most recipes?
Do you know why people build iron farms?
Clearly not to have endless amounts of iron armors.
I try to avoid building those farms becouse they are a lot of work and so do i think very abstract in the way they work.
But i'm also a "hopper child".
That is why i go nuts on iron mining.
You sad yourself that you have to know what you are doing in order to get full iron early on.
The same goes for diamonds. It may take way longer to stripmine full diamond but if you know what your doing you can skip iron armor completly for the most powerfull armor.
If you don't like playing with armor stronger then leather you can do so. There is nothing wrong about having challanges.
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My projects:
-are abandoned for now. I might pick 'em up in the future.
For now i'm working on a private modpack that suit's my own playstyle.
I am gonna stay in modded 1.12.2 untill my potato dies. No mercy! :Q
So nerf iron armor and replace every recipe that uses iron with copper? That'd only make the game more annoying and completely kill whatever use iron has since it'd then only have tools and armor.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
Why make iron more rare when replacing most recipes?
Do you know why people build iron farms?
Clearly not to have endless amounts of iron armors.
You didn't read my post, either. I addressed this issue and I made it as clear and obvious as possible. I don't know how you managed to miss it, when it was the majority of the suggestion.
If you don't like playing with armor stronger then leather you can do so. There is nothing wrong about having challanges.
Suggesting I just accept an abundance of OP tools and items and choose not to use them? That's not a reasonable suggestion and it doesn't counter my point in the slightest. But I'm confident that a person with your attitude toward the game could find employment at EA Games.
So nerf iron armor and replace every recipe that uses iron with copper? That'd only make the game more annoying and completely kill whatever use iron has since it'd then only have tools and armor.
How would it make the game more annoying? You haven't explained that part. If you're suggesting that it would be easier or harder to obtain the necessary ingredients, then I'd have to respond by saying not only did I very clearly address that (and the answer is no, that's not correct), but that you clearly read that part of my suggestion. What exactly is your gripe with my suggestion? What you've said doesn't make sense.
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I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
Suggesting I just accept an abundance of OP tools and items and choose not to use them? That's not a reasonable suggestion and it doesn't counter my point in the slightest.
Demanding we accept your belief that a mid-tier is overpowered simply due to it being common isn't a good argument, either.
But I'm confident that a person with your attitude toward the game could find employment at EA Games.
That kind of response is not going to convince anyone.
How would it make the game more annoying? You haven't explained that part.
I didn't think I had to, but alright. Another tier will just complicate things further and solve a problem that wasn't actually a problem in the first place. Copper has been suggested at least a dozen times as either a tier between stone and iron or as a flat-ut replacement for stone. Seriously, do a Forum search. There are five pages of copper suggestions. They all have the same problem: they only further divide the gap between stone and iron rather than solving something that doesn't need to be solved. Here's a quick mining speed chart for the majority of blocks according to the Wiki (in seconds), followed by how it would correlate to copper speed:
The times are far too close to each other to make a difference.
Next up, consider the community. You said, and I quote,
"Even a brand-new player might have full iron armor in a matter of days from starting the game."
A new player likely would not understand mining well enough to have full iron armor within a few Minecraft days. And even then, new players aren't the majority of the community. The majority knows about searching the Internet for answers, so they won't have problems mining. For most players, your "abundant overpowered tier" would be tossed aside for a full diamond set of tool within about 10 hours. Maybe even 20 for a set of diamond armor, too. Then there are those people who enchant Fortune on their pickaxes as soon as possible to maximize Diamond profits, so they may be able to reach a full set of diamond tools, armor and an enchantment table within six or so hours. You also have to consider that players can obtain iron tools and armor from chests and mobs scattered around the world. And finally, if Mojang added an entire tier above diamond that comes that is even more powerful, it's unlikely they'd think there's anything wrong with iron tools.
Next, let's mention Stone tools alone. Stone is plentiful, and it works well. Compare that to Iron Ore, which only generates up to 20 times per chunk. Whatever it can mine that causes it to drop itself, it mines in under two seconds. Stone tools have 131 durability compared to Iron's 250. The stone tool phase can last a long time, with or without a desire to upgrade. Adding another tier between just means a slight more amount of work to reach iron followed by diamond, and that's what makes it annoying. Instead of finding iron and immediately harvesting it, a player would have to search for copper instead.
And might I add, in a gameplay and realism sense, it makes no sense to add recipes that allow any metal ingot to be used for anything. Due to the way the crafting system works, you'd either need to completely redo it or add a new recipe for every combination of ingot. So for example, normal rails could be crafted with six iron ingots and a stick. or six copper ingots and a stick. Or six Netherite ingots and a stick. Or two gold ingots, three iron ingots and a Netherite ingot, with those three appearing in every possible configuration. It'd just take too long. Plus some recipes wouldn't make sense. Gold is a very soft and malleable ore. So is copper. Neither of them would be strong enough to make a piston work. They'd just dent themselves instead of pushing whatever. They'd be too soft to make good rails. And why would either of them be able to craft iron trapdoor and doors? And no, copper isn't even strong enough to make decent tools and/or armor. It's too soft. A copper tier would just be another weak gold tier if Mojang wanted any sense of reality.
At this point, I've lost the rest of my train of thought. But my point stands: stone and iron are both solid tiers as they currently stand. There is no reason to add a new tier without it being immediately redundant and making the jump to the actually powerful diamond take slightly longer. Not to mention it could be completely skipped if a creeper blew up some iron ore. I'd rather see copper have unique applications in redstone rather than being just a slightly-worse reskin of an already-existing tier.
(And unrelated to copper, but pig iron is just a form of crude iron. It has nothing to do with pigs. And it'd be redundant since piglins can already give players iron nuggets, up to 36 at a time.)
I don't think i miss understood and i did read all of it.
You don't like that iron is as common as it is now and you think the armor is too strong.
You suggestet adding copper as a tier below iron with most of the iron recipes like anvil ect.
And that is what i don't like. That change would be huge and confusing for many players.
It's really not a huge change. For one, you can still use iron for everything you could previously. I guarantee you nobody would be confused; the game already has had MANY changes made that were far more confusing. What exactly is confusing about making tools out of copper?
Plus i don't think that new players need more tiers than we have now.
Playing minecraft for the first hours is not easy.
The game has no ingame tutorial, many dangers and suprises.
I don't think we need more tiers either, I think we need more EFFECTIVE tiers. Because for a brand new player there's three tiers, and for the rest of us there's only two. The whole point of my suggestion is to stretch out the existing tiers so that they don't get covered in the blink of an eye. What new players experience isn't even relevant as my suggestion does nothing to make the game harder for them. I'm struggling to figure out how you think these words apply to my suggestion. Your statements are all over the place. We don't need more tiers? That's missing the point of my suggestion; frankly I don't even care if the copper can be used for another item tier (it just makes little sense to have it but not let players turn it into equipment {now THAT would be confusing to players}). THE POINT IS to spread out the EXISTING TIERS. The game is hard at first? Completely irrelevant. It has terrible ability to communicate things to new players? Also completely irrelevant. I have tons of ideas to fix those completely irrelevant problems, but I'm sure if I suggested them you'd probably say some random stuff about how it has negative effects that it objectively doesn't have, or something.
Demanding we accept your belief that a mid-tier is overpowered simply due to it being common isn't a good argument, either.
I did nothing of the sort. I merely suggested it to be true, there was no demand that you agree. It is a good argument, but here let me walk you through it. If all tiers were presented to the player sitting in a chest at the beginning of the game, that would be bad, yes? If the same chest were not available at the start of the game but hiding a short distance away from spawn, that would still be bad, but not as bad, yes? Because the problem is that there's no reason to have tiers when you just jump right past them in the beginning of the game. You can go ahead and try to convince me or anyone else that we shouldn't have tiers in the first place, and I'm willing to hear that suggestion, but as long as we accept that tiers are a good thing then we should also accept that those tiers should actually have some value as tiers, and not just be "technically there but not really" (I'm looking at you, wood tier). If you're with me so far, then yes, I've made a perfectly sound argument. You can disagree with the conclusion I had based on it (add copper) but the logic is solid.
[edited for chart spacing]
I didn't think I had to, but alright. Another tier will just complicate things further and solve a problem that wasn't actually a problem in the first place.
This isn't about adding another tier. It's about spacing apart existing tiers. Read the suggestion.
Copper has been suggested at least a dozen times as either a tier between stone and iron or as a flat-ut replacement for stone. Seriously, do a Forum search. There are five pages of copper suggestions. They all have the same problem: they only further divide the gap between stone and iron rather than solving something that doesn't need to be solved.
Actually the problem they ALL have (and I have most definitely done the search, quite thoroughly in fact) is that not one of them offers a REASON to add copper. Every single one of them (except for my own previous suggestion to add it) simply suggests that it would be cool, or that we should have more tiers just because. My suggestion (and my old one, and every suggestion I've ever made on these forums) is very careful to give a clear justification for the suggestion, and you just skipped past that and claimed I didn't.
Next up, consider the community. You said, and I quote,
"Even a brand-new player might have full iron armor in a matter of days from starting the game."
A new player likely would not understand mining well enough to have full iron armor within a few Minecraft days. And even then, new players aren't the majority of the community. The majority knows about searching the Internet for answers, so they won't have problems mining. For most players, your "abundant overpowered tier" would be tossed aside for a full diamond set of tool within about 10 hours. Maybe even 20 for a set of diamond armor, too. Then there are those people who enchant Fortune on their pickaxes as soon as possible to maximize Diamond profits, so they may be able to reach a full set of diamond tools, armor and an enchantment table within six or so hours. You also have to consider that players can obtain iron tools and armor from chests and mobs scattered around the world. And finally, if Mojang added an entire tier above diamond that comes that is even more powerful, it's unlikely they'd think there's anything wrong with iron tools.
All irrelevant, and NONE of your logic holds up. There being a problem with diamond tier being too low doesn't invalidate my suggestion; if anything it reinforces it--but is ultimately to be discussed on another topic. Me failing to suggest how to fix diamond tier isn't my bad, I am supposed to keep these suggestions succinct and limited in scope. Mojang addressing a problem with existing tiers does not mean they think there's no problems with existing tiers; far to the contrary it suggests they do see the problem. On the flip side, them adding a tier as a solution suggests my method (which is not focused on adding a tier) is not going too far with adding more tiers. And the very high popularity of their solution lends credibility to my own suggestion.
Next, let's mention Stone tools alone. Stone is plentiful, and it works well. Compare that to Iron Ore, which only generates up to 20 times per chunk. Whatever it can mine that causes it to drop itself, it mines in under two seconds. Stone tools have 131 durability compared to Iron's 250. The stone tool phase can last a long time, with or without a desire to upgrade. Adding another tier between just means a slight more amount of work to reach iron followed by diamond, and that's what makes it annoying. Instead of finding iron and immediately harvesting it, a player would have to search for copper instead.
That's not an argument against separating iron further, if anything it's an argument in favor of doing it. But you're getting tripped up on how close they already are and suggesting that pushing them apart will create some unforeseen chaos as a player scrambles to get the now rarer iron and is somehow unfulfilled in their search completely disregarding 1.) copper tier if it's added, and more importantly 2.) a player can thrive on stone tier and does not NEED iron tier to get by.
I think it would be good to improve iron tool durability and power a bit, but I left that out of the suggestion as it wasn't hugely important to the point and I wanted to keep it short. Those bits of tailoring can be done whenever, and can easily be the subject of a later suggestion. There is no need for such small details to be included in the post. If you're going to say there's not enough room between stone and iron tier, then you should also look at the distance from iron to diamond tier, and how much room there is to move iron tier.
And might I add, in a gameplay and realism sense, it makes no sense to add recipes that allow any metal ingot to be used for anything. Due to the way the crafting system works, you'd either need to completely redo it or add a new recipe for every combination of ingot.
If that were true, the game wouldn't have so many recipes that have dozens or hundreds of ways to put them together. That's completely false.
Gold is a very soft and malleable ore. So is copper. Neither of them would be strong enough to make a piston work.
Gold is soft, copper is not. Gold dosn't have to be included in the recipes; I merely offered it as a suggestion. Including copper for all structural metal (which DOES work in real life) is the important part. My suggestion actually improves realism: ignoring the fact that copper exists in real life (we don't want to add things just because they exist), many kinds of metal are virtually interchangeable for many jobs. Pistons are a great example. We tend to make the metal rod of a piston out of steel because it's a good option, but copper, bronze, brass, tin, zinc, aluminum, nickel, and many more metals and countless possible alloys are all workable options. Copper is one of the better ones--though in real life it was typically alloyed with other things due to its rarity. The Minoans are the only civilization to build large objects out of solid copper, because they were the only one to have an abundance of it.
At this point, I've lost the rest of my train of thought. But my point stands: stone and iron are both solid tiers as they currently stand. There is no reason to add a new tier without it being immediately redundant and making the jump to the actually powerful diamond take slightly longer.
They're not solid tiers; they're too close together progression-wise relative to the rather large difference (as you showed with numbers) in terms of performance. The suggestion I made will make it take longer to get to diamond (the intent, partially), and will not immediately become any more redundant than iron tier is already. On this point and this point alone we can agree to disagree, however if you truly feel that iron tier is in an okay spot right now I'd have to ask: do you support adding netherite, and if so, why?
Not to mention it could be completely skipped if a creeper blew up some iron ore.
I don't see any problem with this. It's one of those things that gives an edge to a player with more wisdom in the game.
(And unrelated to copper, but pig iron is just a form of crude iron. It has nothing to do with pigs. And it'd be redundant since piglins can already give players iron nuggets, up to 36 at a time.)
I'm aware of this. It's a crap metal that works fine as generic structural metal but starts to suck once you try to do anything important with it. The name of the suggested metal isn't important, but "pig iron" was too fitting NOT to use it.
"And it'd be redundant since piglins can already give players iron nuggets, up to 36 at a time.)"
A major part of my post was addressing that. You missed it.
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I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
Yeah so anyway. I've read enough. I don't like the idea and that's it. I gave reasons but they seem to not beeing relevant or logic. I don't want to talk you down on this. However: Those who decide how minecraft evolves don't need to counter your points.
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My projects:
-are abandoned for now. I might pick 'em up in the future.
For now i'm working on a private modpack that suit's my own playstyle.
I am gonna stay in modded 1.12.2 untill my potato dies. No mercy! :Q
This isn't about adding another tier. It's about spacing apart existing tiers. Read the suggestion.
"You can make tools and armor with copper"
Tier: a level or grade within the hierarchy of an organization or system.
Your suggestion is, by definition, adding a new tier. A tier, in terms of Minecraft, is a set of tools and/or armor that is added. You're suggesting spacing between tiers by adding a new one. The only way it wouldn't be a tier is if it was completely skippable like gold (and even then, I'd still call gold a tier.)
Detailed response coming later since it's currently 1AM and I'm tired.
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Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
For most players, your "abundant overpowered tier" would be tossed aside for a full diamond set of tool within about 10 hours. Maybe even 20 for a set of diamond armor, too.
10-20 hours? You can easily mine all the diamond you need in a tenth of that time even without using Fortune, even in a brand-new world; one of the first things I do when I start a new world is make a branch-mine at diamond level, upgrading to iron, then diamond as soon as I find them:
By the way, I just started a new world and timed myself to get diamond.
On my first try it took me 48 minutes to get a full set of diamond armor, weapons and tools, including a hoe. That's 35 diamonds in 48 minutes, including the time it took to collect wood, find a cave, dig down to level 12, fight off several skeletons, creepers, zombies, craft furnaces and smelt and craft a full set of iron armor, four iron pickaxes, and craft all of the diamond items.
That's 1 diamond every 1.4 minutes, (without Fortune III and Efficiency V).
I'm sorry, but diamonds are preposterously over-abundant.
Compare that to Iron Ore, which only generates up to 20 times per chunk.
There are actually over 100 iron ore per chunk - "20 times per chunk" is 20 veins per chunk, each of which averages 6-7 ores (intact veins, I found about 112 iron ore per chunk when analyzing a 1.8+ world), and I regularly find around 3 stacks per hour while caving for fun, without any intent to specifically find iron or other resources; I've even mined more than a thousand in a single sitting on multiple occasions, and regularly enough to make a level 4 beacon in a couple sessions - and iron ore is less common in 1.6.4 than it is in newer versions, especially 1.8+ (around 0.6% of all blocks vs 0.7-0.75%, note the older graphs below):
Also, I would not call iron armor "very powerful" especially since 1.9 - thanks to general armor penetration, one of the worst ideas Mojang has ever implemented (it should have been reserved for special attacks like poison, which has always ignored armor), even diamond armor is insufficient - on Normal difficulty a creeper deals up to 49 damage point-blank, which will reduce full diamond down to only 31% damage reduction (1% lost per point of damage) - allowing 33.81 damage through - you may as well just be wearing leather armor in an older version (prior to 1.9 leather armor provided a constant 28% damage reduction)!
Even Netherite (+3 toughness per piece) is ineffective unless enchanted, losing nearly half of its original protection (12 toughness reduces penetration to 0.8% per point of damage for 40.8% damage reduction and 29 damage taken). By contrast, prior to 1.9 you'd take 19.6 damage in full iron, which is still too close for comfort; the armor I wear (in 1.6.4, no penetration) reduces damage by 77.6% for a worst-case of about 11 damage taken. Of course, you can put Protection and/or Blast Protection on your armor which lets you easily survive in any type of armor (minimum of 64% for Protection, up to 80% with Blast Protection and/or a mixture) but that just shows how bad armor is.
That's blatantly misrepresenting my post. I didn't say "it doesn't involve adding another tier", I said "it's not about adding another tier". And it's not. You quoted the only part of my post where I even mentioned adding another tier, and failed to mention that:
a.) it was said in passing, and
b.) immediately afterward, I said: "But more importantly..." and proceeded to iterate the actual purpose of the post which has nothing to do with adding another tier
Tier: a level or grade within the hierarchy of an organization or system.
You posting the definition here is a deliberate insinuation that I am misrepresenting my own words, which is blatantly false and is in fact a misrepresentation on your part. That's very dishonest of you, it's a waste of time for other people to read your non-contributory post, it distracts from the actual topic, and it slanders me without basis or provocation.
Your suggestion is, by definition, adding a new tier. A tier, in terms of Minecraft, is a set of tools and/or armor that is added. You're suggesting spacing between tiers by adding a new one.
No, it's not. The copper tools and armor? I could take them or leave them; they're not relevant to the topic as I made abundantly clear not only in the original post but in several replies since then. You pretending it isn't so doesn't make it not so.
The only way it wouldn't be a tier is if it was completely skippable like gold (and even then, I'd still call gold a tier.)
Again, insinuating I said something I didn't say. Nowhere in the post did I say that the copper tier wasn't skippable. I didn't mention it because it's not relevant to the topic. If it were up to me, I'd make copper tier skippable, but once again, not relevant to the post.
It's not that huge of a difference against the majority of hits. Creepers (the ONLY big hit most players encounter on a regular basis) are easily mitigated by not being at the center of the blast. Having your center be as little as 1 tile away from the center of the creeper (your models could be almost touching) is enough to reduce the blast damage by nearly half. You can take zero damage despite having the ground beneath your feet blown out of the way. For skeletons, zombies, spiders, piglins, pillagers, enderman, ghast fireballs, slimes, magma cubes, phantoms, even vexes, the majority of even iron armor's damage reduction holds even on hard difficulty. So I'd still say it's very powerful--and it's no less useful than before, as everything below iron is comparatively nerfed as well. I'm not saying I think it's all the way it should be, just that iron armor is still quite good.
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I think it was actually a good move. I'd go so far as to say that the older high armor values were too good. For years I considered unenchanted iron armor to be all the damage reduction I'd ever need for normal gameplay. It wasn't the penetration that changed that, it was upping my game to bigger challenges.
^ above is proof yet again that the current forum editor is: What You See Is Not What You Get, and the old one was betetr in every way. I will die on that hill. Or they will reinstate the old forum editor and make me happy.
"I have tons of ideas to fix those completely irrelevant problems, but I'm sure if I suggested them you'd probably say some random stuff about how it has negative effects that it objectively doesn't have, or something."
It's pretty clear that you're not willing to take negative criticism. You've shut yourself out of hearing other's objections, and this is evident even in your wording.
I mention this not because of your actual suggestion, but because of your resistance to consider problems argued by other people. Instead, you dismiss them completely. If you weren't willing to adapt to the potential problems brought up by other people, what was your point of making the suggestion.
It's not that huge of a difference against the majority of hits. Creepers (the ONLY big hit most players encounter on a regular basis) are easily mitigated by not being at the center of the blast. Having your center be as little as 1 tile away from the center of the creeper (your models could be almost touching) is enough to reduce the blast damage by nearly half
Not according to actual tests I just did in 1.6.4 (Normal difficulty):
I started with clean stats, 0 damage taken:
This is the result of letting a creeper walk up to me and explode while both of use were standing still; I took 22 damage, or 8.8 after iron armor (visually shown as 4 hearts as health is rounded up but it is closer to 4 1/2):
I repeated the experiment (with full health) by going in a 1x1 hole and spawning a creeper, which dealt at least 47.5 damage, 19 in full iron armor (the damage taken stat increased by 48.8 but this includes fall damage I took afterwards), and while I barely survived I died from fall damage; even with Feather Falling IV it is unlikely that I would have survived and any other mobs could easily finish you off:
Note that according to the code creepers start their countdown, and stop moving, when they are within 3 blocks of a player (squared distance of 9), and at this distance damage taken is about half the maximum (the damage taken stat increased by 22 when I let one walk up to me while standing still and when I let one explode while both of use were in a 1x1 hole, the latter of which also killed me from fall damage after being blown into the air):
This is a table of the distance-damage values for a creeper explosion (taken from my own mod, which modifies their damage); the left column is vanilla, where 80% represents full diamond armor - even then you can lose nearly half your health in a worst-case scenario:
Damage for vanilla and modded / after max armor damage reduction / ratio after armor
D V (80%) M (66.7%) Ratio
0 49 (9.8) 36 (12.0) 1.22
1 37 (7.4) 31 (10.3) 1.39
2 27 (5.4) 26 ( 8.7) 1.61
3 19 (3.8) 21 ( 7.0) 1.84
4 11 (2.2) 16 ( 5.3) 2.41
5 5 (1.0) 11 ( 3.7) 3.67
6 1 (0.2) 6 ( 2.0) 10.00
You might say that you can just walk away from them but surely you get surprised by them every one in a while, then again, maybe you don't regularly kill/encounter hundreds of mobs per play session while caving in Swiss cheese caves, and I always want to be prepared for the worst-case scenario (this is also why shields are no excuse for not requiring good armor as they require that you use them and face the attacker, thus I probably wouldn't ever bother using them if I played in 1.9+, which would of course be modded to fit my own ideal vision of the game; you may notice in the table above that creepers deal less peak damage but far more at a distance, which when combined with weaker player armor (mob armor still has the original damage reduction) means you take up to 10 times more damage at the maximum damage distance but only 1.2 times point-blank - they also keep moving while counting down, as they did in vanilla until around 1.2, similar to how skeletons lost their ability to move while shooting until 1.9 restored it - you might have a very different opinion of creepers if they didn't just freeze and let you run out of the blast radius entirely before they explode (I also reduced this range from 7 to 5 blocks so you can't safely detonate them).
Also, the explosion mechanics with respect to blocks shielding you from damage are flawed; even blocks like tall grass and snow can absorb nearly all the damaging force of a blast despite having 0 blast resistance and being completely destroyed in the explosion (the game calculates entity damage before removing blocks), which explains your claim that "You can take zero damage despite having the ground beneath your feet blown out of the way" - but that doesn't happen all the time.
In any case, making iron rarer won't make much of a difference when it is easy to get full diamond armor before you even get iron (besides a pickaxe), or have to fight mobs; one of the first things I do in a new world is start a branch-mine at diamond level and I avoid caving until the end-game, aside from exploring any caves my mine runs into just enough to see if they lead anywhere (this is mainly because I want to save caving until then and after I've made all of my "caving gear", which is more than just armor).
"I never support [Just Another Equipment Tier]. Not only is it MANDATORY[/b] for it to have a basis for existing (beyond "IT'D BE COOL"), but it MUST AVOID[/b] stepping on the toes of existing content."
It's pretty clear that you're not willing to take negative criticism. You've shut yourself out of hearing other's objections, and this is evident even in your wording.
Far to the contrary, negative criticism is exactly what I want, and you guys aren't giving it to me. I want you to give clear reasons for me to fix or reject my suggestion, but what you guys have been doing is equivalent to spinning a wheel to figure out what response you'll give. I'm not going to accept a comment merely because it's negative; it needs to actually contribute to this post or else it has no reason to be here. Even a simple "I don't like this idea", while largely unproductive, is still better than the responses I've gotten thus far because at least it doesn't pretend to offer a criticism while not actually doing so.
If I make X argument and you say X argument is wrong because Y argument relating to X argument, then that is at minimum using correct syntax of an argument against my post, even if you put almost no thought at all into it.
But if I make X argument and you say Y argument is wrong because of A reasoning related to B, then you're not making a criticism of my post, you're just shouting angry misguided words at the page and filling up forum space with useless comments.
The one and only time I actually received any actual criticism here (from TheMasterCaver), I welcomed it and discussed it. But with the rest of you guys it's like up is down, left is right, short is long. The things you're saying regarding my post don't actually regard my post.
Not according to actual tests I just did in 1.6.4 (Normal difficulty):
Note that according to the code creepers start their countdown, and stop moving, when they are within 3 blocks of a player (squared distance of 9), and at this distance damage taken is about half the maximum (the damage taken stat increased by 22 when I let one walk up to me while standing still and when I let one explode while both of use were in a 1x1 hole, the latter of which also killed me from fall damage after being blown into the air):
This is a table of the distance-damage values for a creeper explosion (taken from my own mod, which modifies their damage); the left column is vanilla, where 80% represents full diamond armor - even then you can lose nearly half your health in a worst-case scenario:
Damage for vanilla and modded / after max armor damage reduction / ratio after armor
D V (80%) M (66.7%) Ratio
0 49 (9.8) 36 (12.0) 1.22
1 37 (7.4) 31 (10.3) 1.39
2 27 (5.4) 26 ( 8.7) 1.61
3 19 (3.8) 21 ( 7.0) 1.84
4 11 (2.2) 16 ( 5.3) 2.41
5 5 (1.0) 11 ( 3.7) 3.67
6 1 (0.2) 6 ( 2.0) 10.00
You might say that you can just walk away from them but surely you get surprised by them every one in a while,
Interesting. I'm probably wrong about the exact distance but I know that once you get the hang of moving away from creepers, it's generally pretty easy. Learning to prevent them from damaging your property is MUCH more difficult than simply preventing them from damaging yourself. I'm not saying it isn't difficult for new players, but it's not even a skill I practice and I'm still good at it.
"I never support [Just Another Equipment Tier]. Not only is it MANDATORY for it to have a basis for existing (beyond "IT'D BE COOL"), but it MUST AVOID stepping on the toes of existing content."
You said this on the End Ore/Dragon Ore thread.
And I am proud to say that I have upheld that promise phenomenally in this suggestion. But if you feel otherwise, please explain so in the comments. I wish only to improve my suggestion so that it can be as good as possible!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
In any case, making iron rarer won't make much of a difference when it is easy to get full diamond armor before you even get iron (besides a pickaxe),
Yeah I know that. I'd love to also make diamonds harder to get. But even if diamonds remain the same, moving iron tier back would still have a pretty big impact on many players' games, especially newer players, because they often will find plenty of iron long before they find out how to search for diamonds. I had played the game for months before I found out where diamonds come from. It was fine. What made me sad was when I found out that diamonds are actually really abundant, they're just placed deep enough underground that I never thought to look there. Branch mining isn't fun. I think diamonds should spawn perhaps once per ~10 chunks, but they should occur in cave systems and exposed to air, or at least occur at significantly higher elevations.
I played a 1.8 game in which I had reduced diamond vein size by 1, and then I increased the max height to 32. It caused diamonds to be much less common in branch mining, but significantly more common to find while caving, in particular they showed up in caves that also reached the surface.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
Far to the contrary, negative criticism is exactly what I want, and you guys aren't giving it to me. I want you to give clear reasons for me to fix or reject my suggestion, but what you guys have been doing is equivalent to spinning a wheel to figure out what response you'll give. I'm not going to accept a comment merely because it's negative; it needs to actually contribute to this post or else it has no reason to be here. Even a simple "I don't like this idea", while largely unproductive, is still better than the responses I've gotten thus far because at least it doesn't pretend to offer a criticism while not actually doing so.
If I make X argument and you say X argument is wrong because Y argument relating to X argument, then that is at minimum using correct syntax of an argument against my post, even if you put almost no thought at all into it.
But if I make X argument and you say Y argument is wrong because of A reasoning related to B, then you're not making a criticism of my post, you're just shouting angry misguided words at the page and filling up forum space with useless comments.
The one and only time I actually received any actual criticism here (from TheMasterCaver), I welcomed it and discussed it. But with the rest of you guys it's like up is down, left is right, short is long. The things you're saying regarding my post don't actually regard my post.
Your "X and Y arguments" make no sense. And it certainly doesn't help your case considering you've resorted to saying things like:
"But I'm confident that a person with your attitude toward the game could find employment at EA Games."
"but I'm sure if I suggested them you'd probably say some random stuff about how it has negative effects that it objectively doesn't have, or something."
"You can disagree with the conclusion I had based on it (add copper) but the logic is solid." (after using some example about how anything would be overpowered if it was given to the player in a chest at the beginning of the game"
"All irrelevant, and NONE of your logic holds up." (in response to my paragraph about how diamond's power makes iron expendable, which certainly relates to the topic seeing as you claimed iron was too powerful, yet diamond is uncommon at the most and much more powerful)
Literally accusing me of slander:
"You posting the definition here is a deliberate insinuation that I am misrepresenting my own words, which is blatantly false and is in fact a misrepresentation on your part. That's very dishonest of you, it's a waste of time for other people to read your non-contributory post, it distracts from the actual topic, and it slanders me without basis or provocation."
And overall, claiming just about anything that doesn't support your idea is either false, off-topic or doesn't hold up in your eyes (with TheMasterCaver being the notable exception to this).
If you want "genuine criticism" instead of "mindless babble", maybe you should lower your standards for replies substantially. My overly-long post you accused me of lying in took about three hours of brainstorming and research. And you shut it down, telling me I'm wrong without ever properly explaining why. There were just massive walls of text with vague responses and attacks on my integrity.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
"All irrelevant, and NONE of your logic holds up." (in response to my paragraph about how diamond's power makes iron expendable, which certainly relates to the topic seeing as you claimed iron was too powerful, yet diamond is uncommon at the most and much more powerful)
The existence of a more powerful tier does not invalidate a claim that a previous tier is overpowered. Also, I didn't suggest nerfing iron tier, I suggested making it more difficult to obtain.
Literally accusing me of slander:
You literally slandered me, multiple times.
Maybe you should lower your standards for replies substantially, and settle for mindless babble instead of genuine criticism.
FTFY
My overly-long post you accused me of lying in took about three hours of brainstorming and research. And you shut it down, telling me I'm wrong without ever properly explaining why. There were just massive walls of text with vague responses and attacks on my integrity.
I'm sorry I belittled your time to such an extent, but I don't understand why it's so difficult just to make a simple comment about a simple post. I explained it clearly, and also showed all of the areas in your post which were supposed to have an explanation but were either lacking one or the explanation given didn't hold up. All you're doing now is claiming that I did exactly what you have done, and claim you have done exactly what I did.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I want ocean content(thanks Möjang!), nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).
It's very bold of you to not explain how I tried lying to damage your reputation before editing my quote so it says the exact opposite of what I'm saying and then accusing me of spending the whole time attacking you instead of just pointing out whenever you did. I don't like making posts that are off-topic. That's my thing: I like to debate minor changes like this. I find it fun to spend three hours writing a forum post about how my experience relates to what I've seen and heard from other people about iron. And I certainly can't plain insult someone over the Internet. I am way too empathetic, and the few times it's happened, I've returned a few minutes/seconds later to edit or delete the post.
And frankly, I'd like to just bury the hatchet now so this thread doesn't derail anymore. The topic is about whether a new Copper tier (or as you say, a new set of tools and armor that are all copper) would be a fit for the game. I still don't think it is. Rather than adding a new set of tools and armor in an attempt to slow down progression and simply making iron rarer so people have to search it out before leaping to diamond, I'd rather put that extra effort somewhere else.
Something that may help you understand why I've explained and thought the way I have is that I prioritize newer players over veterans. I know new blood will keep the game alive and fresh, and I'm very well aware that experienced players will figure out how to exploit game mechanics to have an easy time regardless. I've had hard mode-locked worlds where I went without iron for months because I couldn't focus long enough to strip-mine. And all through that time, a simple shield kept me alive, whether or not I had a base. Because I had experience, I knew how mobs would act, so the game still had very little difficult. But a new player isn't going to be able to do that. They're going to need that iron armor to protect them until they upgrade to diamond. And who knows how long that may take? Even with hundreds of hours under my belt, I still struggle with picking out spots for mines and branch-mining properly for diamonds. A new player won't know anything about what I do know unless they go out of their way. Unless the game outright told them, some new players wouldn't be able to figure out that, as per your suggestion, iron spawns most frequently in mountain peaks.
And sure, while many people will still have fun even with copper, the same could be said about stone tools. Or wooden tools, for that matter. They'd miss out on so much over what seems like such a small change. And that's not a risk I'm willing to take.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
And here's why. Copper is such a little known metal for the use of arms and armor smithing, that it's better known for its use in creating the material that later made it obsolete in such uses: bronze. But more on that in a moment.
Now, I love history, but I was surprised to even see that a few historians decided to make up a "Copper age" that only lasted a little over a thousand years, a sliver of humanity's history of smithing. And the same I'm sure would happen for players with similar arms and armor of the same material; a brief time spent in use, if ever spent at all, just to be subsumed by its historical better: bronze.
Now, the thing about bronze is that, as I hinted at earlier, it is an alloy. We do now have an alloy in game, that being Netherite. Adding alloys could make for interesting, complex gameplay, but does not fit in minecraft in it's current form.
Were the game a more realistic venture in recreating the passage of metallurgical innovation, adding such niche armors, and requiring intensive searching for their creation, would certainly be worthwhile.
Though, adding too many tiers and recipes required would only complicate matters, and quite needlessly so if players are just more likely to opt for the better and easier to obtain option that requires only one resource. In the case of copper, and it's stronger product, this is iron.
So, in all, such smaller, more time and resource intensive tiers would be interesting for maybe some mod that saw you forge your way through history, pun intended. But, as had been previously pointed out by me and others before, most players would go the more efficient route of completely subverting these additions by just skipping over them and going to iron. Even if bronze, and thus copper, were required to mine iron, this would only require them to have a pickaxe of such materials at the very least.
These tiers, as interesting as they could be, would serve only to add a few minor steps, those being obtaining copper to get bronze for mining iron, in between actually using and wearing leather or gold tiers and iron. The whole suits of copper, and bronze, armors would go wholly ignored as all that would be sought is the pickaxe now required for the tier above.
But, my real problem wasn't even with your suggestion. It was with you, how you handled criticism, and then proceeded to belittle those who provided it.
I have a problem with iron. It's very common and allows you to make the very powerful iron armor VERY early in the game if you know what you're doing. Even a brand-new player might have full iron armor in a matter of days from starting the game. I myself spent more time playing the game before making my first crafting table than I did going from stone to iron tools (many times more, in fact). Now this very powerful iron armor (60% damage reduction) was nerfed when toughness was added to the game, but how much it's nerfed depends on the damage of an attack. It protects against zombies and skeletons just fine, but not creepers or vindicators. But making iron less common simply breaks other aspects of the game, as there are many recipes that rely on huge amounts of iron to work. My suggestion will fix all of these things without breaking anything.
Firstly, iron becomes much less common, and to replace it we have copper. You can make tools and armor with copper, and their power is between stone and iron. But more importantly, all of those non-equipment recipes that cost iron can now use copper instead. This includes buckets, minecarts, minecart rails, anvils, doors, bars, chains, lanterns, hoppers, pistons, and plenty more. You can make them with any metal, be it copper, iron, gold, or other.
Iron armor now has +1 toughness per piece, so that it offers good protection like it used to. For those who don't know, basic armor protection is 4% damage reduction per point of armor. So full iron armor (15 armor) offers 60% damage reduction. But the reduction is diminished by 2% per point of damage from an incoming attack. So if you get hit for 10 damage (less than a Vindicator attack), your 60% damage reduction is diminished to only 40%, and you take 6 damage (3 hearts). But with my suggestion to give toughness to Iron Armor, that means that Iron Armor is less affected by this reduction effect. For comparison, Diamond Armor provides +2 toughness per piece.
Iron ore would be more common in mountain biomes, and would occur at higher elevations (up to 96), making mountains a good place to scout for iron ore (which may appear on the surface), and providing the player a way to increase the amount of iron ore they encounter.
I would also want to add Pig Iron as a metal to the game. Piglins should give out Pig Iron ingots commonly in trade, enabling nether-only survival to build things such as hoppers, minecart rails, and other things which may cost large amounts of metal. But Pig Iron would not be craftable into equipment, and Piglins would not give out regular Iron ingots very often. This change will enable making structural metal available to the player in The Nether without giving them huge upgrades to their equipment for too cheap.
I did say that anvils can be made with both Copper and Pig Iron. This means that players can use these to extend the life of any enchanted tools they happen to find. I have other ideas for extending the capabilities of anvil repairing and enchanting, but I'll leave that for another suggestion.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).Why make iron more rare when replacing most recipes?
Do you know why people build iron farms?
Clearly not to have endless amounts of iron armors.
I try to avoid building those farms becouse they are a lot of work and so do i think very abstract in the way they work.
But i'm also a "hopper child".
That is why i go nuts on iron mining.
You sad yourself that you have to know what you are doing in order to get full iron early on.
The same goes for diamonds. It may take way longer to stripmine full diamond but if you know what your doing you can skip iron armor completly for the most powerfull armor.
If you don't like playing with armor stronger then leather you can do so. There is nothing wrong about having challanges.
My projects:
-are abandoned for now. I might pick 'em up in the future.
For now i'm working on a private modpack that suit's my own playstyle.
I am gonna stay in modded 1.12.2 untill my potato dies. No mercy! :Q
So nerf iron armor and replace every recipe that uses iron with copper? That'd only make the game more annoying and completely kill whatever use iron has since it'd then only have tools and armor.
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
You didn't read my post. I said a new player, not a new world played by a veteran player.
You didn't read my post, either. I addressed this issue and I made it as clear and obvious as possible. I don't know how you managed to miss it, when it was the majority of the suggestion.
Suggesting I just accept an abundance of OP tools and items and choose not to use them? That's not a reasonable suggestion and it doesn't counter my point in the slightest. But I'm confident that a person with your attitude toward the game could find employment at EA Games.
How would it make the game more annoying? You haven't explained that part. If you're suggesting that it would be easier or harder to obtain the necessary ingredients, then I'd have to respond by saying not only did I very clearly address that (and the answer is no, that's not correct), but that you clearly read that part of my suggestion. What exactly is your gripe with my suggestion? What you've said doesn't make sense.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).I don't think i miss understood and i did read all of it.
You don't like that iron is as common as it is now and you think the armor is too strong.
You suggestet adding copper as a tier below iron with most of the iron recipes like anvil ect.
And that is what i don't like. That change would be huge and confusing for many players.
Plus i don't think that new players need more tiers than we have now.
Playing minecraft for the first hours is not easy.
The game has no ingame tutorial, many dangers and suprises.
My projects:
-are abandoned for now. I might pick 'em up in the future.
For now i'm working on a private modpack that suit's my own playstyle.
I am gonna stay in modded 1.12.2 untill my potato dies. No mercy! :Q
Demanding we accept your belief that a mid-tier is overpowered simply due to it being common isn't a good argument, either.
That kind of response is not going to convince anyone.
How would it make the game more annoying? You haven't explained that part.
I didn't think I had to, but alright. Another tier will just complicate things further and solve a problem that wasn't actually a problem in the first place. Copper has been suggested at least a dozen times as either a tier between stone and iron or as a flat-ut replacement for stone. Seriously, do a Forum search. There are five pages of copper suggestions. They all have the same problem: they only further divide the gap between stone and iron rather than solving something that doesn't need to be solved. Here's a quick mining speed chart for the majority of blocks according to the Wiki (in seconds), followed by how it would correlate to copper speed:
Stone | Iron | Diff. | Mid. | Copper's speed
1.9 ----| 1.25 | 0.65 | 0.325 | 1.575
1.35 --| 0.9 --| 0.45 | 0.225 | 1.125
1.15 --| 0.75 .| 0.4 -| 0.2 ---| 0.95
0.95 --| 0.65 .| 0.3 -| 0.15 --| 0.8
0.75 --| 0.5 --| 0.25 | 0.125 | 0.625
0.6 ----| 0.4 --| 0.2 -| 0.1 ----| 0.5
The times are far too close to each other to make a difference.
Next up, consider the community. You said, and I quote,
"Even a brand-new player might have full iron armor in a matter of days from starting the game."
A new player likely would not understand mining well enough to have full iron armor within a few Minecraft days. And even then, new players aren't the majority of the community. The majority knows about searching the Internet for answers, so they won't have problems mining. For most players, your "abundant overpowered tier" would be tossed aside for a full diamond set of tool within about 10 hours. Maybe even 20 for a set of diamond armor, too. Then there are those people who enchant Fortune on their pickaxes as soon as possible to maximize Diamond profits, so they may be able to reach a full set of diamond tools, armor and an enchantment table within six or so hours. You also have to consider that players can obtain iron tools and armor from chests and mobs scattered around the world. And finally, if Mojang added an entire tier above diamond that comes that is even more powerful, it's unlikely they'd think there's anything wrong with iron tools.
Next, let's mention Stone tools alone. Stone is plentiful, and it works well. Compare that to Iron Ore, which only generates up to 20 times per chunk. Whatever it can mine that causes it to drop itself, it mines in under two seconds. Stone tools have 131 durability compared to Iron's 250. The stone tool phase can last a long time, with or without a desire to upgrade. Adding another tier between just means a slight more amount of work to reach iron followed by diamond, and that's what makes it annoying. Instead of finding iron and immediately harvesting it, a player would have to search for copper instead.
And might I add, in a gameplay and realism sense, it makes no sense to add recipes that allow any metal ingot to be used for anything. Due to the way the crafting system works, you'd either need to completely redo it or add a new recipe for every combination of ingot. So for example, normal rails could be crafted with six iron ingots and a stick. or six copper ingots and a stick. Or six Netherite ingots and a stick. Or two gold ingots, three iron ingots and a Netherite ingot, with those three appearing in every possible configuration. It'd just take too long. Plus some recipes wouldn't make sense. Gold is a very soft and malleable ore. So is copper. Neither of them would be strong enough to make a piston work. They'd just dent themselves instead of pushing whatever. They'd be too soft to make good rails. And why would either of them be able to craft iron trapdoor and doors? And no, copper isn't even strong enough to make decent tools and/or armor. It's too soft. A copper tier would just be another weak gold tier if Mojang wanted any sense of reality.
At this point, I've lost the rest of my train of thought. But my point stands: stone and iron are both solid tiers as they currently stand. There is no reason to add a new tier without it being immediately redundant and making the jump to the actually powerful diamond take slightly longer. Not to mention it could be completely skipped if a creeper blew up some iron ore. I'd rather see copper have unique applications in redstone rather than being just a slightly-worse reskin of an already-existing tier.
(And unrelated to copper, but pig iron is just a form of crude iron. It has nothing to do with pigs. And it'd be redundant since piglins can already give players iron nuggets, up to 36 at a time.)
[edited for chart spacing]
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
It's really not a huge change. For one, you can still use iron for everything you could previously. I guarantee you nobody would be confused; the game already has had MANY changes made that were far more confusing. What exactly is confusing about making tools out of copper?
I don't think we need more tiers either, I think we need more EFFECTIVE tiers. Because for a brand new player there's three tiers, and for the rest of us there's only two. The whole point of my suggestion is to stretch out the existing tiers so that they don't get covered in the blink of an eye. What new players experience isn't even relevant as my suggestion does nothing to make the game harder for them. I'm struggling to figure out how you think these words apply to my suggestion. Your statements are all over the place. We don't need more tiers? That's missing the point of my suggestion; frankly I don't even care if the copper can be used for another item tier (it just makes little sense to have it but not let players turn it into equipment {now THAT would be confusing to players}). THE POINT IS to spread out the EXISTING TIERS. The game is hard at first? Completely irrelevant. It has terrible ability to communicate things to new players? Also completely irrelevant. I have tons of ideas to fix those completely irrelevant problems, but I'm sure if I suggested them you'd probably say some random stuff about how it has negative effects that it objectively doesn't have, or something.
= = = = = = = = = =
I did nothing of the sort. I merely suggested it to be true, there was no demand that you agree. It is a good argument, but here let me walk you through it. If all tiers were presented to the player sitting in a chest at the beginning of the game, that would be bad, yes? If the same chest were not available at the start of the game but hiding a short distance away from spawn, that would still be bad, but not as bad, yes? Because the problem is that there's no reason to have tiers when you just jump right past them in the beginning of the game. You can go ahead and try to convince me or anyone else that we shouldn't have tiers in the first place, and I'm willing to hear that suggestion, but as long as we accept that tiers are a good thing then we should also accept that those tiers should actually have some value as tiers, and not just be "technically there but not really" (I'm looking at you, wood tier). If you're with me so far, then yes, I've made a perfectly sound argument. You can disagree with the conclusion I had based on it (add copper) but the logic is solid.
This isn't about adding another tier. It's about spacing apart existing tiers. Read the suggestion.
Actually the problem they ALL have (and I have most definitely done the search, quite thoroughly in fact) is that not one of them offers a REASON to add copper. Every single one of them (except for my own previous suggestion to add it) simply suggests that it would be cool, or that we should have more tiers just because. My suggestion (and my old one, and every suggestion I've ever made on these forums) is very careful to give a clear justification for the suggestion, and you just skipped past that and claimed I didn't.
All irrelevant, and NONE of your logic holds up. There being a problem with diamond tier being too low doesn't invalidate my suggestion; if anything it reinforces it--but is ultimately to be discussed on another topic. Me failing to suggest how to fix diamond tier isn't my bad, I am supposed to keep these suggestions succinct and limited in scope. Mojang addressing a problem with existing tiers does not mean they think there's no problems with existing tiers; far to the contrary it suggests they do see the problem. On the flip side, them adding a tier as a solution suggests my method (which is not focused on adding a tier) is not going too far with adding more tiers. And the very high popularity of their solution lends credibility to my own suggestion.
That's not an argument against separating iron further, if anything it's an argument in favor of doing it. But you're getting tripped up on how close they already are and suggesting that pushing them apart will create some unforeseen chaos as a player scrambles to get the now rarer iron and is somehow unfulfilled in their search completely disregarding 1.) copper tier if it's added, and more importantly 2.) a player can thrive on stone tier and does not NEED iron tier to get by.
I think it would be good to improve iron tool durability and power a bit, but I left that out of the suggestion as it wasn't hugely important to the point and I wanted to keep it short. Those bits of tailoring can be done whenever, and can easily be the subject of a later suggestion. There is no need for such small details to be included in the post. If you're going to say there's not enough room between stone and iron tier, then you should also look at the distance from iron to diamond tier, and how much room there is to move iron tier.
If that were true, the game wouldn't have so many recipes that have dozens or hundreds of ways to put them together. That's completely false.
Gold is soft, copper is not. Gold dosn't have to be included in the recipes; I merely offered it as a suggestion. Including copper for all structural metal (which DOES work in real life) is the important part. My suggestion actually improves realism: ignoring the fact that copper exists in real life (we don't want to add things just because they exist), many kinds of metal are virtually interchangeable for many jobs. Pistons are a great example. We tend to make the metal rod of a piston out of steel because it's a good option, but copper, bronze, brass, tin, zinc, aluminum, nickel, and many more metals and countless possible alloys are all workable options. Copper is one of the better ones--though in real life it was typically alloyed with other things due to its rarity. The Minoans are the only civilization to build large objects out of solid copper, because they were the only one to have an abundance of it.
They're not solid tiers; they're too close together progression-wise relative to the rather large difference (as you showed with numbers) in terms of performance. The suggestion I made will make it take longer to get to diamond (the intent, partially), and will not immediately become any more redundant than iron tier is already. On this point and this point alone we can agree to disagree, however if you truly feel that iron tier is in an okay spot right now I'd have to ask: do you support adding netherite, and if so, why?
I don't see any problem with this. It's one of those things that gives an edge to a player with more wisdom in the game.
I'm aware of this. It's a crap metal that works fine as generic structural metal but starts to suck once you try to do anything important with it. The name of the suggested metal isn't important, but "pig iron" was too fitting NOT to use it.
"And it'd be redundant since piglins can already give players iron nuggets, up to 36 at a time.)"
A major part of my post was addressing that. You missed it.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).Yeah so anyway. I've read enough. I don't like the idea and that's it. I gave reasons but they seem to not beeing relevant or logic. I don't want to talk you down on this. However: Those who decide how minecraft evolves don't need to counter your points.
My projects:
-are abandoned for now. I might pick 'em up in the future.
For now i'm working on a private modpack that suit's my own playstyle.
I am gonna stay in modded 1.12.2 untill my potato dies. No mercy! :Q
"You can make tools and armor with copper"
Tier: a level or grade within the hierarchy of an organization or system.
Your suggestion is, by definition, adding a new tier. A tier, in terms of Minecraft, is a set of tools and/or armor that is added. You're suggesting spacing between tiers by adding a new one. The only way it wouldn't be a tier is if it was completely skippable like gold (and even then, I'd still call gold a tier.)
Detailed response coming later since it's currently 1AM and I'm tired.
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
10-20 hours? You can easily mine all the diamond you need in a tenth of that time even without using Fortune, even in a brand-new world; one of the first things I do when I start a new world is make a branch-mine at diamond level, upgrading to iron, then diamond as soon as I find them:
There are actually over 100 iron ore per chunk - "20 times per chunk" is 20 veins per chunk, each of which averages 6-7 ores (intact veins, I found about 112 iron ore per chunk when analyzing a 1.8+ world), and I regularly find around 3 stacks per hour while caving for fun, without any intent to specifically find iron or other resources; I've even mined more than a thousand in a single sitting on multiple occasions, and regularly enough to make a level 4 beacon in a couple sessions - and iron ore is less common in 1.6.4 than it is in newer versions, especially 1.8+ (around 0.6% of all blocks vs 0.7-0.75%, note the older graphs below):
Also, I would not call iron armor "very powerful" especially since 1.9 - thanks to general armor penetration, one of the worst ideas Mojang has ever implemented (it should have been reserved for special attacks like poison, which has always ignored armor), even diamond armor is insufficient - on Normal difficulty a creeper deals up to 49 damage point-blank, which will reduce full diamond down to only 31% damage reduction (1% lost per point of damage) - allowing 33.81 damage through - you may as well just be wearing leather armor in an older version (prior to 1.9 leather armor provided a constant 28% damage reduction)!
Even Netherite (+3 toughness per piece) is ineffective unless enchanted, losing nearly half of its original protection (12 toughness reduces penetration to 0.8% per point of damage for 40.8% damage reduction and 29 damage taken). By contrast, prior to 1.9 you'd take 19.6 damage in full iron, which is still too close for comfort; the armor I wear (in 1.6.4, no penetration) reduces damage by 77.6% for a worst-case of about 11 damage taken. Of course, you can put Protection and/or Blast Protection on your armor which lets you easily survive in any type of armor (minimum of 64% for Protection, up to 80% with Blast Protection and/or a mixture) but that just shows how bad armor is.
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
That's blatantly misrepresenting my post. I didn't say "it doesn't involve adding another tier", I said "it's not about adding another tier". And it's not. You quoted the only part of my post where I even mentioned adding another tier, and failed to mention that:
a.) it was said in passing, and
b.) immediately afterward, I said: "But more importantly..." and proceeded to iterate the actual purpose of the post which has nothing to do with adding another tier
You posting the definition here is a deliberate insinuation that I am misrepresenting my own words, which is blatantly false and is in fact a misrepresentation on your part. That's very dishonest of you, it's a waste of time for other people to read your non-contributory post, it distracts from the actual topic, and it slanders me without basis or provocation.
No, it's not. The copper tools and armor? I could take them or leave them; they're not relevant to the topic as I made abundantly clear not only in the original post but in several replies since then. You pretending it isn't so doesn't make it not so.
Again, insinuating I said something I didn't say. Nowhere in the post did I say that the copper tier wasn't skippable. I didn't mention it because it's not relevant to the topic. If it were up to me, I'd make copper tier skippable, but once again, not relevant to the post.
= = = = = = = = = =
It's not that huge of a difference against the majority of hits. Creepers (the ONLY big hit most players encounter on a regular basis) are easily mitigated by not being at the center of the blast. Having your center be as little as 1 tile away from the center of the creeper (your models could be almost touching) is enough to reduce the blast damage by nearly half. You can take zero damage despite having the ground beneath your feet blown out of the way. For skeletons, zombies, spiders, piglins, pillagers, enderman, ghast fireballs, slimes, magma cubes, phantoms, even vexes, the majority of even iron armor's damage reduction holds even on hard difficulty. So I'd still say it's very powerful--and it's no less useful than before, as everything below iron is comparatively nerfed as well. I'm not saying I think it's all the way it should be, just that iron armor is still quite good.
I think it was actually a good move. I'd go so far as to say that the older high armor values were too good. For years I considered unenchanted iron armor to be all the damage reduction I'd ever need for normal gameplay. It wasn't the penetration that changed that, it was upping my game to bigger challenges.
^ above is proof yet again that the current forum editor is: What You See Is Not What You Get, and the old one was betetr in every way. I will die on that hill. Or they will reinstate the old forum editor and make me happy.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?)."I have tons of ideas to fix those completely irrelevant problems, but I'm sure if I suggested them you'd probably say some random stuff about how it has negative effects that it objectively doesn't have, or something."
It's pretty clear that you're not willing to take negative criticism. You've shut yourself out of hearing other's objections, and this is evident even in your wording.
I mention this not because of your actual suggestion, but because of your resistance to consider problems argued by other people. Instead, you dismiss them completely. If you weren't willing to adapt to the potential problems brought up by other people, what was your point of making the suggestion.
Did you expect unconditional praise.
Not according to actual tests I just did in 1.6.4 (Normal difficulty):
This is the result of letting a creeper walk up to me and explode while both of use were standing still; I took 22 damage, or 8.8 after iron armor (visually shown as 4 hearts as health is rounded up but it is closer to 4 1/2):
I repeated the experiment (with full health) by going in a 1x1 hole and spawning a creeper, which dealt at least 47.5 damage, 19 in full iron armor (the damage taken stat increased by 48.8 but this includes fall damage I took afterwards), and while I barely survived I died from fall damage; even with Feather Falling IV it is unlikely that I would have survived and any other mobs could easily finish you off:
Note that according to the code creepers start their countdown, and stop moving, when they are within 3 blocks of a player (squared distance of 9), and at this distance damage taken is about half the maximum (the damage taken stat increased by 22 when I let one walk up to me while standing still and when I let one explode while both of use were in a 1x1 hole, the latter of which also killed me from fall damage after being blown into the air):
This is a table of the distance-damage values for a creeper explosion (taken from my own mod, which modifies their damage); the left column is vanilla, where 80% represents full diamond armor - even then you can lose nearly half your health in a worst-case scenario:
You might say that you can just walk away from them but surely you get surprised by them every one in a while, then again, maybe you don't regularly kill/encounter hundreds of mobs per play session while caving in Swiss cheese caves, and I always want to be prepared for the worst-case scenario (this is also why shields are no excuse for not requiring good armor as they require that you use them and face the attacker, thus I probably wouldn't ever bother using them if I played in 1.9+, which would of course be modded to fit my own ideal vision of the game; you may notice in the table above that creepers deal less peak damage but far more at a distance, which when combined with weaker player armor (mob armor still has the original damage reduction) means you take up to 10 times more damage at the maximum damage distance but only 1.2 times point-blank - they also keep moving while counting down, as they did in vanilla until around 1.2, similar to how skeletons lost their ability to move while shooting until 1.9 restored it - you might have a very different opinion of creepers if they didn't just freeze and let you run out of the blast radius entirely before they explode (I also reduced this range from 7 to 5 blocks so you can't safely detonate them).
Also, the explosion mechanics with respect to blocks shielding you from damage are flawed; even blocks like tall grass and snow can absorb nearly all the damaging force of a blast despite having 0 blast resistance and being completely destroyed in the explosion (the game calculates entity damage before removing blocks), which explains your claim that "You can take zero damage despite having the ground beneath your feet blown out of the way" - but that doesn't happen all the time.
In any case, making iron rarer won't make much of a difference when it is easy to get full diamond armor before you even get iron (besides a pickaxe), or have to fight mobs; one of the first things I do in a new world is start a branch-mine at diamond level and I avoid caving until the end-game, aside from exploring any caves my mine runs into just enough to see if they lead anywhere (this is mainly because I want to save caving until then and after I've made all of my "caving gear", which is more than just armor).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
"I never support [Just Another Equipment Tier]. Not only is it MANDATORY[/b] for it to have a basis for existing (beyond "IT'D BE COOL"), but it MUST AVOID[/b] stepping on the toes of existing content."
You said this on the End Ore/Dragon Ore thread.
Far to the contrary, negative criticism is exactly what I want, and you guys aren't giving it to me. I want you to give clear reasons for me to fix or reject my suggestion, but what you guys have been doing is equivalent to spinning a wheel to figure out what response you'll give. I'm not going to accept a comment merely because it's negative; it needs to actually contribute to this post or else it has no reason to be here. Even a simple "I don't like this idea", while largely unproductive, is still better than the responses I've gotten thus far because at least it doesn't pretend to offer a criticism while not actually doing so.
If I make X argument and you say X argument is wrong because Y argument relating to X argument, then that is at minimum using correct syntax of an argument against my post, even if you put almost no thought at all into it.
But if I make X argument and you say Y argument is wrong because of A reasoning related to B, then you're not making a criticism of my post, you're just shouting angry misguided words at the page and filling up forum space with useless comments.
The one and only time I actually received any actual criticism here (from TheMasterCaver), I welcomed it and discussed it. But with the rest of you guys it's like up is down, left is right, short is long. The things you're saying regarding my post don't actually regard my post.
Interesting. I'm probably wrong about the exact distance but I know that once you get the hang of moving away from creepers, it's generally pretty easy. Learning to prevent them from damaging your property is MUCH more difficult than simply preventing them from damaging yourself. I'm not saying it isn't difficult for new players, but it's not even a skill I practice and I'm still good at it.
And I am proud to say that I have upheld that promise phenomenally in this suggestion. But if you feel otherwise, please explain so in the comments. I wish only to improve my suggestion so that it can be as good as possible!
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).Yeah I know that. I'd love to also make diamonds harder to get. But even if diamonds remain the same, moving iron tier back would still have a pretty big impact on many players' games, especially newer players, because they often will find plenty of iron long before they find out how to search for diamonds. I had played the game for months before I found out where diamonds come from. It was fine. What made me sad was when I found out that diamonds are actually really abundant, they're just placed deep enough underground that I never thought to look there. Branch mining isn't fun. I think diamonds should spawn perhaps once per ~10 chunks, but they should occur in cave systems and exposed to air, or at least occur at significantly higher elevations.
I played a 1.8 game in which I had reduced diamond vein size by 1, and then I increased the max height to 32. It caused diamonds to be much less common in branch mining, but significantly more common to find while caving, in particular they showed up in caves that also reached the surface.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).Your "X and Y arguments" make no sense. And it certainly doesn't help your case considering you've resorted to saying things like:
"But I'm confident that a person with your attitude toward the game could find employment at EA Games."
"but I'm sure if I suggested them you'd probably say some random stuff about how it has negative effects that it objectively doesn't have, or something."
"You can disagree with the conclusion I had based on it (add copper) but the logic is solid." (after using some example about how anything would be overpowered if it was given to the player in a chest at the beginning of the game"
"All irrelevant, and NONE of your logic holds up." (in response to my paragraph about how diamond's power makes iron expendable, which certainly relates to the topic seeing as you claimed iron was too powerful, yet diamond is uncommon at the most and much more powerful)
Literally accusing me of slander:
"You posting the definition here is a deliberate insinuation that I am misrepresenting my own words, which is blatantly false and is in fact a misrepresentation on your part. That's very dishonest of you, it's a waste of time for other people to read your non-contributory post, it distracts from the actual topic, and it slanders me without basis or provocation."
And overall, claiming just about anything that doesn't support your idea is either false, off-topic or doesn't hold up in your eyes (with TheMasterCaver being the notable exception to this).
If you want "genuine criticism" instead of "mindless babble", maybe you should lower your standards for replies substantially. My overly-long post you accused me of lying in took about three hours of brainstorming and research. And you shut it down, telling me I'm wrong without ever properly explaining why. There were just massive walls of text with vague responses and attacks on my integrity.
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
The existence of a more powerful tier does not invalidate a claim that a previous tier is overpowered. Also, I didn't suggest nerfing iron tier, I suggested making it more difficult to obtain.
You literally slandered me, multiple times.
FTFY
I'm sorry I belittled your time to such an extent, but I don't understand why it's so difficult just to make a simple comment about a simple post. I explained it clearly, and also showed all of the areas in your post which were supposed to have an explanation but were either lacking one or the explanation given didn't hold up. All you're doing now is claiming that I did exactly what you have done, and claim you have done exactly what I did.
I want
ocean content(thanks Möjang!),nether biomes(again thanks!!), and savanna passive mobs (meerkats incoming!?).It's very bold of you to not explain how I tried lying to damage your reputation before editing my quote so it says the exact opposite of what I'm saying and then accusing me of spending the whole time attacking you instead of just pointing out whenever you did. I don't like making posts that are off-topic. That's my thing: I like to debate minor changes like this. I find it fun to spend three hours writing a forum post about how my experience relates to what I've seen and heard from other people about iron. And I certainly can't plain insult someone over the Internet. I am way too empathetic, and the few times it's happened, I've returned a few minutes/seconds later to edit or delete the post.
And frankly, I'd like to just bury the hatchet now so this thread doesn't derail anymore. The topic is about whether a new Copper tier (or as you say, a new set of tools and armor that are all copper) would be a fit for the game. I still don't think it is. Rather than adding a new set of tools and armor in an attempt to slow down progression and simply making iron rarer so people have to search it out before leaping to diamond, I'd rather put that extra effort somewhere else.
Something that may help you understand why I've explained and thought the way I have is that I prioritize newer players over veterans. I know new blood will keep the game alive and fresh, and I'm very well aware that experienced players will figure out how to exploit game mechanics to have an easy time regardless. I've had hard mode-locked worlds where I went without iron for months because I couldn't focus long enough to strip-mine. And all through that time, a simple shield kept me alive, whether or not I had a base. Because I had experience, I knew how mobs would act, so the game still had very little difficult. But a new player isn't going to be able to do that. They're going to need that iron armor to protect them until they upgrade to diamond. And who knows how long that may take? Even with hundreds of hours under my belt, I still struggle with picking out spots for mines and branch-mining properly for diamonds. A new player won't know anything about what I do know unless they go out of their way. Unless the game outright told them, some new players wouldn't be able to figure out that, as per your suggestion, iron spawns most frequently in mountain peaks.
And sure, while many people will still have fun even with copper, the same could be said about stone tools. Or wooden tools, for that matter. They'd miss out on so much over what seems like such a small change. And that's not a risk I'm willing to take.
Watch out for the crabocalypse. Some say the day will never come. But it will.
Feel free to drop by for a chat whenever.
If you'd like to talk with me about other games, here are a few I play.
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands series (Borderlands 2 is my favorite game, ever. TPS combat is a lot of fun and makes up for the lower-quality story, in my opinion)
Elder Scrolls series
Warframe (IGN is something like That_One_Flesh_Atronach)
Pokémon series (HGSS forever)
Rocket League
Fallout series
Left 4 Dead 2 (Boomer files always corrupt though)
SUPERHOT (SUPERHOT is the most innovative shooter I've played in years!)
Dead Rising series (Dead Rising 2 is one of my favorite games, and the 3rd was a lot of fun. 1st has poor survivor AI and the 4th is bad)
Just Cause series
Come to think of it, I mainly play fighting-based games.
Alright. I don't like this idea.
And here's why. Copper is such a little known metal for the use of arms and armor smithing, that it's better known for its use in creating the material that later made it obsolete in such uses: bronze. But more on that in a moment.
Now, I love history, but I was surprised to even see that a few historians decided to make up a "Copper age" that only lasted a little over a thousand years, a sliver of humanity's history of smithing. And the same I'm sure would happen for players with similar arms and armor of the same material; a brief time spent in use, if ever spent at all, just to be subsumed by its historical better: bronze.
Now, the thing about bronze is that, as I hinted at earlier, it is an alloy. We do now have an alloy in game, that being Netherite. Adding alloys could make for interesting, complex gameplay, but does not fit in minecraft in it's current form.
Were the game a more realistic venture in recreating the passage of metallurgical innovation, adding such niche armors, and requiring intensive searching for their creation, would certainly be worthwhile.
Though, adding too many tiers and recipes required would only complicate matters, and quite needlessly so if players are just more likely to opt for the better and easier to obtain option that requires only one resource. In the case of copper, and it's stronger product, this is iron.
So, in all, such smaller, more time and resource intensive tiers would be interesting for maybe some mod that saw you forge your way through history, pun intended. But, as had been previously pointed out by me and others before, most players would go the more efficient route of completely subverting these additions by just skipping over them and going to iron. Even if bronze, and thus copper, were required to mine iron, this would only require them to have a pickaxe of such materials at the very least.
These tiers, as interesting as they could be, would serve only to add a few minor steps, those being obtaining copper to get bronze for mining iron, in between actually using and wearing leather or gold tiers and iron. The whole suits of copper, and bronze, armors would go wholly ignored as all that would be sought is the pickaxe now required for the tier above.
But, my real problem wasn't even with your suggestion. It was with you, how you handled criticism, and then proceeded to belittle those who provided it.