If you haven't read Part 1 or Part 2, I really recommend you do. In a nutshell, Part 1 makes oceans larger and adds a sailboat, and Part 2 adds a lot of ocean animals and plants. Anyway, let's dive straight into this suggestion.
Ships
Structures
Nope, we're not done yet! The sea needs to be interesting, so why not some special structures?
Pirate Cove
This would actually be a biome. It would usually be the location of buried treasure. Pirate Ships would often be near this biome. The terrain would be similar to oak forest mountains from Minecraft Beta, but with a lot more sand. The biome would be mostly broken up by the water. Sometimes there would be shipwrecks on in this biome, which would contain loot similar to the shipwrecks being implemented in the 1.14 update.
Additionally, Pirate Coves would have a 25% chance of being filled with pirates. In this variation, there would be tents scattered everywhere in the cove, with greedy pirates ready to attack the player.
Beach Villages
Villages could now generate on beaches, where they would have docks. Merchant Ships would sometimes dock at these villages.
Technical Stuff
Probably the most used and most convincing argument against moving ships in Minecraft is how it would be implemented on the technical side of things. Though there are mods like Da Vinci's Vessels, they do prove many flaws in the idea of how moving ships would work.
One of the major things is lag, and another (though not commonly mentioned) thing is how the ship creating would seem like it's in the game world. You could argue that ship-creating mods introduce gameplay that breaks immersion due to how you convert a structure into an entity. So, how can this problem be fixed?
Individual Entities
This sounds kind of crazy, but here me out. Instead of having one large, complex entity that would crash the game, we could have individual entities that a ship is made out of. Now, if every block in a ship was its own entity, there would be some issues. Though there wouldn't be a massive entity causing lag, there would be tons of small entities that would cause lag. So, I propose the ship be divided into "slices"– each of which would be part of the ship. Each slice would be 3 blocks thick, and would have a width and height determined by the ship dimensions. The game would know how to cut the "slices" by which dimension of the ship is longest.
Disabling Redstone
Since redstone on ships would be extremely laggy, all redstone dust, redstone torches, redstone repeaters, redstone comparators, and hoppers would not work and would instead emit a water splash particle effect.
Block Limit
As mentioned above, each ship would have a limit of 5,000 blocks total. If the ship is any bigger, placing or right-clicking the helm would give the message, "You may not sail now, your ship is docked or is too big." If your ship is attached to your house or dock by accident, this would of course also happen.
Sinking
If there is an open space in the ship next to water, the water would instantly fill up all air blocks of that layer (not "slice," layer) in the ship. I say instantly because running the normal water algorithm would be extremely laggy, and I am trying to avoid as many lag issues as possible. Since water would have a high "weight" it would cause the ship to sink.
Fixing the Immersion Problem
Most ship-creating mods make it pretty clear that the ship (when sailing) is a separate thing from when it is "docked," or sitting still. I don't think this would be the ideal way to implement ships in vanilla Minecraft, though; it would feel too immersion-breaking. To avoid this, three things should happen:
1. The ship turns into an entity when the ship helm is there, not when you want it to move.
This would mean your ship would feel the same from the moment you create it and onward, regardless if it is moving or not.
2. You can build/mine on the ship, even when it is an entity.
Similar to how armor stands can detect what part of it you're right-clicking, each "slice" of the ship can detect what block you're looking at. Thus, you would be able to place/mine blocks and use things such as doors.
3. Ships take damage from explosions.
Like mentioned above, each ship "slice" would be able to detect the hitbox of its individual blocks, just like an armor stand does with its parts. When a "slice" is in the range of an explosion, it would determine which of its blocks were in range of the explosion specifically, and then delete them from the data list if they don't have a sufficient blast resistance.
Cannonballs
Though similar to TNT, cannonballs actually only have the explosion power of a ghast fireball (which is 1) as opposed to the power of a TNT explosion (which is 4). Of course, unlike ghast fireballs, cannonballs do not start fires.
Pirate Ships
Pirates on pirate ships fire cannons when they detect a player, villager, or ship directly in front of the cannon. The cannonballs would be fired at the minimum range necessary to hit the target. When pirates are firing the cannons on their ships, they take 3 seconds to load and fire just like players do. If the difficulty is Easy or Normal, an extra second or half second would be added to this. The pirates would also have an unlimited supply of shots similar to how skeletons have an unlimited supply of arrows.
Conclusion
Many features have been added to Minecraft over the years. Some small, some large; some game-changing, some useless. While features of all shapes and sizes can improve the game, I think features that give the player more options and more things to play around with can improve Minecraft in ways smaller features just can't. At the end of the day, which would make the game better: a new dungeon, or a new tool to play around with?
It is because of this and other reasons that I believe player-built ships would be a wonderful addition to Minecraft. I hope that I have proposed a balanced and reasonable method of implementing this, and I hope that you enjoyed reading.
Changes
Cannons are now much more balanced. (Suggested by MinecraftPROFESSIONAL123.)
Pirates can now go on other ships.
Merchant Ships now have a few cannons for self-defense. (Suggested by steam66.)
Pirate Coves now have a chance of being tent-filled. (Suggested by steam66.)
- Some sort of arquebus that Pirates or Merchant Ship crewmen could wield, as well as the player. I mean, if they have cannons, it seems somewhat strange they wouldn't at least have matchlocks. These could be stronger than the Bow but need reloading time as well as being unable to fire in water or rain.
- The Pirate Cove would have lots of small wool tents within it and quantities of Pirates of various kinds.
- The Merchant Ship should come with a few cannons of its own, to be used against Pirate Ships. It could be distinguished from Pirate Ships by having a large blue "flag" of wool on top, compared to a black flag for a Pirate Ship.
- Those Pirate Ships that spawn with black sails should have more crewmen, and a superior amount of cannon. You could call them "Flagships" or something like that.
- Some sort of arquebus that Pirates or Merchant Ship crewmen could wield, as well as the player. I mean, if they have cannons, it seems somewhat strange they wouldn't at least have matchlocks. These could be stronger than the Bow but need reloading time as well as being unable to fire in water or rain.
I don't really think that something as controversial/game-changing as handheld firearms should be handled in this thread. My goal with this suggestion is to propose ships, not things loosely related to ships. (Yeah, I suggested cannons, but those are something that goes on ships.)
- The Merchant Ship should come with a few cannons of its own, to be used against Pirate Ships. It could be distinguished from Pirate Ships by having a large blue "flag" of wool on top, compared to a black flag for a Pirate Ship.
I guess that could work. I definitely don't want to do warships, though, as those should be made by the player.
- Those Pirate Ships that spawn with black sails should have more crewmen, and a superior amount of cannon. You could call them "Flagships" or something like that.
That could make seeing one with black sails more interesting and more alarming. Maybe they could have some special armor, too?
Something else that could be cool would be ghost ships, but I haven't worked out the details for those yet.
I don't really think that something as controversial/game-changing as handheld firearms should be handled in this thread. My goal with this suggestion is to propose ships, not things loosely related to ships. (Yeah, I suggested cannons, but those are something that goes on ships.) Suggested Arquebuses, because while on one hand Minecraft has iron armor and horses, but on the other hand you really can't have stereotypical pirates without guns to shoot off on the deck. I figured a matchlock gun would solve both categories nicely.
Sounds cool. Could you elaborate a little bit? Basically, many wool/fencepost tents around a Cove, representing that the Pirates have kinda colonized the area. Many armed ones of various kinds (sword/bow/arquebus) and some Captains, plus various ships docked.
I guess that could work. I definitely don't want to do warships, though, as those should be made by the player. Yeah- they've just got two or three guns on each side, not four to six like a pirate ship would in my imagination. Kinda like how old East Indiaman trade ships had minimal armament to drive away pirates.
That could make seeing one with black sails more interesting and more alarming. Maybe they could have some special armor, too? I was thinking just a (bigger?) ship with more cannons, more crewmembers, etc. You could have it flanked by multiple smaller Pirate Ships too, as it'd be a flagship.
Something else that could be cool would be ghost ships, but I haven't worked out the details for those yet. Make 'em rise from the ocean suddenly to surprise the player- with skeleton pirates, immune to sunlight, manning it. Some kinda rotten wood texture, plus the ship having black sails, since that seems to be an indicator of "elite" ships.
The cove thing is an interesting idea, but I'm not really convinced. I don't want there to always be pirates. That way it would be a lot more exciting when there are.
I am sold on your cannon idea, but I would like to have iron golems involved in some way with the defense of the ship. I will add the cannon thing to the post.
Your description of ghost ships sounds awesome. The only thing I'd change is the sunlight thing; I would make them only come out during the night (and go away when it becomes day), so it really wouldn't matter if they burned during the day or not.
The cove thing is an interesting idea, but I'm not really convinced. I don't want there to always be pirates. That way it would be a lot more exciting when there are. I guess that's true; perhaps you could have a 25-50% chance of it being a tent-filled cove, with pirates everywhere.
I am sold on your cannon idea, but I would like to have iron golems involved in some way with the defense of the ship. I will add the cannon thing to the post. Iron golems can be kept on the lower decks of a merchant ship. Since boarding actions would be too hard to implement properly, you could have them just respond to player attacks- alternatively, they could simply be "deactivated" and sitting in rows, being shipped to villages for more defense, or something like that. It'd make for a cool sight; hit a sailor, and the Golems belowdeck will stand up in unison, their arms extending and their heads flipping up, before marching up the central stairs to attack.
Your description of ghost ships sounds awesome. The only thing I'd change is the sunlight thing; I would make them only come out during the night (and go away when it becomes day), so it really wouldn't matter if they burned during the day or not. Yeah.
I like this idea, with the ocean update coming larger ships are a priority. Pirates would also make the ocean interesting. Just a thought, maybe there could be undead skeleton or pigmen pirates in the Nether, or moving end ships in the End? I'm not sure if that would be the most balanced thing but if it was rare with valuable loot it could be worth it.
I like this idea, with the ocean update coming larger ships are a priority. Pirates would also make the ocean interesting. Just a thought, maybe there could be undead skeleton or pigmen pirates in the Nether, or moving end ships in the End? I'm not sure if that would be the most balanced thing but if it was rare with valuable loot it could be worth it.
Support.
Thank you for the support!
I actually thought about having floating ships in the End and lava ships in the Nether (done with a purpur helm and a netherbrick helm). However, I didn't put them in the post yet because I thought it would be best just to keep everything directly related to the ocean. The other thing is that being able to make Nether ships could remove one of the major challenges of traveling in the Nether: getting across or around all of the lava (though elytra already remove this challenge once you get them). Then again, I could make the netherbrick helm uncraftable and leave it up to the player to successfully siege a zombie pigman ship in order to sail in the nether. Should I add the Nether/End ships to the post?
i love the idea of ships but i doubt that moganj will add that in a near future
Many people say this, but the thing is that you never know. While yes, it is most likely that the closest thing to player-built ships Mojang will ever add will be a twice-as-long rowboat, they might eventually decide it's time to make player-built ships. If they were to implement something that's been suggested as big as this, they would probably look to read a lot of posts (both on this forum and on other websites).
Do you think I could improve it in any major ways? I know there are some parts that aren't the best, but I'd like to know what everyone else thinks should be modified before I go changing something that might not need to be changed.
Iron golems can be kept on the lower decks of a
[/b]merchant ship. Since boarding actions would be too hard to implement
properly, you could have them just respond to player attacks-
alternatively, they could simply be "deactivated" and sitting in rows,
being shipped to villages for more defense, or something like that. It'd
make for a cool sight; hit a sailor, and the Golems belowdeck will
stand up in unison, their arms extending and their heads flipping up,
before marching up the central stairs to attack.[/b]
I can see this being pretty cool, though I don't think they should necessarily be "deactivated." Maybe they could just patrol the deck they are on until a player (or pirate or illager) attacks one of the crew members.
You think too big for Mojang, I see them addin 1 new sea block after 8 months of development and a brain dead mob.
This is more for discussion than a direct request sent to the developers. Plus, a new developer in the future, or maybe even a current developer might decide to implement a big feature like this and want to know what the community thinks.
That seems a lot more reasonable. I will add this to the post.
I can see this being pretty cool, though I don't think they should necessarily be "deactivated." Maybe they could just patrol the deck they are on until a player (or pirate or illager) attacks one of the crew members. The entire "golem rows" look is kinda similar to the battle droids from Star Wars: Episode 1- all unfolding in unison before moving to defend the crew. I figure that to prevent them from being damaged in any way, and just to make more space free on the ship, they'd have these enormous golems deactivated and sitting in orderly rows, only reactivated (in the sense that whatever magic propels them reanimating the iron) when the crew is in danger. Patrolling golems would work but only perhaps one or two, as the main bulk of the ship's golem complement is sitting in storage, and having 15 golems on deck would look weird.
The entire "golem rows" look is kinda similar to the
battle droids from Star Wars: Episode 1- all unfolding in unison before
moving to defend the crew. I figure that to prevent them from being
damaged in any way, and just to make more space free on the ship, they'd
have these enormous golems deactivated and sitting in orderly rows,
only reactivated (in the sense that whatever magic propels them
reanimating the iron) when the crew is in danger. Patrolling golems
would work but only perhaps one or two, as the main bulk of the ship's
golem complement is sitting in storage, and having 15 golems on deck
would look weird.[/b]
That would make a lot more sense. The stationary/deactivated golems would be like the "back up" golems, right?
That would make a lot more sense. The stationary/deactivated golems would be like the "back up" golems, right?
Both cargo and backup. Speaking of battle droids though, is the clip I was speaking of (go to 0:50 to see what I mean). Basically, the golems would be crouched down with their heads bowed and no red in their eyes; they would sit in very compact rows in the hold. Upon a villager being wounded on the ship, the golems would stand up in unison, their heads would flip up, and their arms would straighten out. They would then immediately march up the stairs to attack the aggressors.
I think that would actually look a lot cooler- the ship initially appearing defenseless, only to contain eight to ten iron giants waiting for their activation.
Both cargo and backup. Speaking of battle droids though, is the clip I was speaking of (go to 0:50 to see what I mean). Basically, the golems would be crouched down with their heads bowed and no red in their eyes; they would sit in very compact rows in the hold. Upon a villager being wounded on the ship, the golems would stand up in unison, their heads would flip up, and their arms would straighten out. They would then immediately march up the stairs to attack the aggressors.
I think that would actually look a lot cooler- the ship initially appearing defenseless, only to contain eight to ten iron giants waiting for their activation.
While it would certainly look cool, isn't that overcomplicating things a little? Wouldn't it just be better to have them constantly roaming around, ready to defend the villagers?
Oh, and the post is a little different now because I've started changing the format.
After reading through all three parts, I've decided I really like this suggestion. Especially the continents, as it makes it easier to explore in segments. However, this seems like a lot of features that could potentially be very laggy. Plus, with 1.14 announced as the ocean update, players will probably get sick of ocean-related updates. But in any case, partial support.
See the "technical stuff" section for solutions to lag issues. The ship will not be one big giant entity; it will be divided into multiple parts.
If you haven't read Part 1 or Part 2, I really recommend you do. In a nutshell, Part 1 makes oceans larger and adds a sailboat, and Part 2 adds a lot of ocean animals and plants. Anyway, let's dive straight into this suggestion.
Ships
Structures
Nope, we're not done yet! The sea needs to be interesting, so why not some special structures?
Pirate Cove
This would actually be a biome. It would usually be the location of buried treasure. Pirate Ships would often be near this biome. The terrain would be similar to oak forest mountains from Minecraft Beta, but with a lot more sand. The biome would be mostly broken up by the water. Sometimes there would be shipwrecks on in this biome, which would contain loot similar to the shipwrecks being implemented in the 1.14 update.
Additionally, Pirate Coves would have a 25% chance of being filled with pirates. In this variation, there would be tents scattered everywhere in the cove, with greedy pirates ready to attack the player.
Beach Villages
Villages could now generate on beaches, where they would have docks. Merchant Ships would sometimes dock at these villages.
Technical Stuff
Probably the most used and most convincing argument against moving ships in Minecraft is how it would be implemented on the technical side of things. Though there are mods like Da Vinci's Vessels, they do prove many flaws in the idea of how moving ships would work.
One of the major things is lag, and another (though not commonly mentioned) thing is how the ship creating would seem like it's in the game world. You could argue that ship-creating mods introduce gameplay that breaks immersion due to how you convert a structure into an entity. So, how can this problem be fixed?
Individual Entities
This sounds kind of crazy, but here me out. Instead of having one large, complex entity that would crash the game, we could have individual entities that a ship is made out of. Now, if every block in a ship was its own entity, there would be some issues. Though there wouldn't be a massive entity causing lag, there would be tons of small entities that would cause lag. So, I propose the ship be divided into "slices"– each of which would be part of the ship. Each slice would be 3 blocks thick, and would have a width and height determined by the ship dimensions. The game would know how to cut the "slices" by which dimension of the ship is longest.
Disabling Redstone
Since redstone on ships would be extremely laggy, all redstone dust, redstone torches, redstone repeaters, redstone comparators, and hoppers would not work and would instead emit a water splash particle effect.
Block Limit
As mentioned above, each ship would have a limit of 5,000 blocks total. If the ship is any bigger, placing or right-clicking the helm would give the message, "You may not sail now, your ship is docked or is too big." If your ship is attached to your house or dock by accident, this would of course also happen.
Sinking
If there is an open space in the ship next to water, the water would instantly fill up all air blocks of that layer (not "slice," layer) in the ship. I say instantly because running the normal water algorithm would be extremely laggy, and I am trying to avoid as many lag issues as possible. Since water would have a high "weight" it would cause the ship to sink.
Fixing the Immersion Problem
Most ship-creating mods make it pretty clear that the ship (when sailing) is a separate thing from when it is "docked," or sitting still. I don't think this would be the ideal way to implement ships in vanilla Minecraft, though; it would feel too immersion-breaking. To avoid this, three things should happen:
1. The ship turns into an entity when the ship helm is there, not when you want it to move.
This would mean your ship would feel the same from the moment you create it and onward, regardless if it is moving or not.
2. You can build/mine on the ship, even when it is an entity.
Similar to how armor stands can detect what part of it you're right-clicking, each "slice" of the ship can detect what block you're looking at. Thus, you would be able to place/mine blocks and use things such as doors.
3. Ships take damage from explosions.
Like mentioned above, each ship "slice" would be able to detect the hitbox of its individual blocks, just like an armor stand does with its parts. When a "slice" is in the range of an explosion, it would determine which of its blocks were in range of the explosion specifically, and then delete them from the data list if they don't have a sufficient blast resistance.
Cannonballs
Though similar to TNT, cannonballs actually only have the explosion power of a ghast fireball (which is 1) as opposed to the power of a TNT explosion (which is 4). Of course, unlike ghast fireballs, cannonballs do not start fires.
Pirate Ships
Pirates on pirate ships fire cannons when they detect a player, villager, or ship directly in front of the cannon. The cannonballs would be fired at the minimum range necessary to hit the target. When pirates are firing the cannons on their ships, they take 3 seconds to load and fire just like players do. If the difficulty is Easy or Normal, an extra second or half second would be added to this. The pirates would also have an unlimited supply of shots similar to how skeletons have an unlimited supply of arrows.
Conclusion
Many features have been added to Minecraft over the years. Some small, some large; some game-changing, some useless. While features of all shapes and sizes can improve the game, I think features that give the player more options and more things to play around with can improve Minecraft in ways smaller features just can't. At the end of the day, which would make the game better: a new dungeon, or a new tool to play around with?
It is because of this and other reasons that I believe player-built ships would be a wonderful addition to Minecraft. I hope that I have proposed a balanced and reasonable method of implementing this, and I hope that you enjoyed reading.
Changes
Cannons are now much more balanced. (Suggested by MinecraftPROFESSIONAL123.)
Pirates can now go on other ships.
Merchant Ships now have a few cannons for self-defense. (Suggested by steam66.)
Pirate Coves now have a chance of being tent-filled. (Suggested by steam66.)
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
Very nice. Some of my suggestions:
- Some sort of arquebus that Pirates or Merchant Ship crewmen could wield, as well as the player. I mean, if they have cannons, it seems somewhat strange they wouldn't at least have matchlocks. These could be stronger than the Bow but need reloading time as well as being unable to fire in water or rain.
- The Pirate Cove would have lots of small wool tents within it and quantities of Pirates of various kinds.
- The Merchant Ship should come with a few cannons of its own, to be used against Pirate Ships. It could be distinguished from Pirate Ships by having a large blue "flag" of wool on top, compared to a black flag for a Pirate Ship.
- Those Pirate Ships that spawn with black sails should have more crewmen, and a superior amount of cannon. You could call them "Flagships" or something like that.
We're doing a mod project, check it out:
i love the idea of ships but i doubt that moganj will add that in a near future
Thank you!
I don't really think that something as controversial/game-changing as handheld firearms should be handled in this thread. My goal with this suggestion is to propose ships, not things loosely related to ships. (Yeah, I suggested cannons, but those are something that goes on ships.)
Sounds cool. Could you elaborate a little bit?
I guess that could work. I definitely don't want to do warships, though, as those should be made by the player.
That could make seeing one with black sails more interesting and more alarming. Maybe they could have some special armor, too?
Something else that could be cool would be ghost ships, but I haven't worked out the details for those yet.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
Responses in bold.
We're doing a mod project, check it out:
The cove thing is an interesting idea, but I'm not really convinced. I don't want there to always be pirates. That way it would be a lot more exciting when there are.
I am sold on your cannon idea, but I would like to have iron golems involved in some way with the defense of the ship. I will add the cannon thing to the post.
Your description of ghost ships sounds awesome. The only thing I'd change is the sunlight thing; I would make them only come out during the night (and go away when it becomes day), so it really wouldn't matter if they burned during the day or not.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
We're doing a mod project, check it out:
I like this idea, with the ocean update coming larger ships are a priority. Pirates would also make the ocean interesting. Just a thought, maybe there could be undead skeleton or pigmen pirates in the Nether, or moving end ships in the End? I'm not sure if that would be the most balanced thing but if it was rare with valuable loot it could be worth it.
Support.
Thank you for the support!
I actually thought about having floating ships in the End and lava ships in the Nether (done with a purpur helm and a netherbrick helm). However, I didn't put them in the post yet because I thought it would be best just to keep everything directly related to the ocean. The other thing is that being able to make Nether ships could remove one of the major challenges of traveling in the Nether: getting across or around all of the lava (though elytra already remove this challenge once you get them). Then again, I could make the netherbrick helm uncraftable and leave it up to the player to successfully siege a zombie pigman ship in order to sail in the nether. Should I add the Nether/End ships to the post?
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
Many people say this, but the thing is that you never know. While yes, it is most likely that the closest thing to player-built ships Mojang will ever add will be a twice-as-long rowboat, they might eventually decide it's time to make player-built ships. If they were to implement something that's been suggested as big as this, they would probably look to read a lot of posts (both on this forum and on other websites).
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
I like this idea a loot so...
Support
Do you think I could improve it in any major ways? I know there are some parts that aren't the best, but I'd like to know what everyone else thinks should be modified before I go changing something that might not need to be changed.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
That seems a lot more reasonable. I will add this to the post.
I can see this being pretty cool, though I don't think they should necessarily be "deactivated." Maybe they could just patrol the deck they are on until a player (or pirate or illager) attacks one of the crew members.
Sorry for the late response.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
You think too big for Mojang, I see them addin 1 new sea block after 8 months of development and a brain dead mob.
This is more for discussion than a direct request sent to the developers. Plus, a new developer in the future, or maybe even a current developer might decide to implement a big feature like this and want to know what the community thinks.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
We're doing a mod project, check it out:
That would make a lot more sense. The stationary/deactivated golems would be like the "back up" golems, right?
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
Both cargo and backup. Speaking of battle droids though, is the clip I was speaking of (go to 0:50 to see what I mean). Basically, the golems would be crouched down with their heads bowed and no red in their eyes; they would sit in very compact rows in the hold. Upon a villager being wounded on the ship, the golems would stand up in unison, their heads would flip up, and their arms would straighten out. They would then immediately march up the stairs to attack the aggressors.
I think that would actually look a lot cooler- the ship initially appearing defenseless, only to contain eight to ten iron giants waiting for their activation.
We're doing a mod project, check it out:
While it would certainly look cool, isn't that overcomplicating things a little? Wouldn't it just be better to have them constantly roaming around, ready to defend the villagers?
Oh, and the post is a little different now because I've started changing the format.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them:
See the "technical stuff" section for solutions to lag issues. The ship will not be one big giant entity; it will be divided into multiple parts.
Check out my suggestions! Here is one of them: