I'm sorry, I might be unable to take anything you write serious anymore. But if it's an consolation, you are now a meme among my roomates. Anything that involves "Going to objective A, Doing Something, and Progressing" is now a console shooter.
Making dinner was a console shooter. Coming back to make this post to you is also a console shooter. Specifically console too, cause it would be silly to think that making dinner is a PC shooter.
Another problem i see with this. I have seen many areas that have little to no caves. My first spawn had only 1 close by cave. I have walked very far, no caves. So I gave up, and mined. I found about, 15 iron BTW in that cave, and maybe a little redstone. No diamond whatsoever. In my mine, I discovered 4 diamonds, 30 iron, and over 300 redstone when i reached the bottom and started a stripmine. Yes, a cave could have been more productive, but in my situation, and using your idea, you were going to force me to mine for hours and days trying to find enough iron to even make a pickaxe. And before you say "Create a new world" you are saying that to the people with beautiful maps with massive overhangs, mountains, and cliffs but no caves who would never want to get rid of their beautiful map. And why should I have to? I should only have to create a new world if I get bored of the world I am in, or want to test out new features.
Also, there are many more caves underground, then there are above. And these are often more productive because they are closer to the diamond layers. I found about 10 diamonds in the cave I found in my second mine. It wouldv'e taken me an extremely long time to find this. It would have led to boredom=me stopping playing.
And i just realized through your post that what i said about choice was stupid. But, it is a valid arguement for a sandbox game like Minecraft, where there are supposed to be a lot of choices. A better example than an MMO, a real sandbox game. It's like saying in Gmod, only these (number) addons you can use, the others are restricted. Your proposal is basically like the start of turning Minecraft into an entirely new genre, saying there is only one way to mine.
Another problem I see with this. Try mining obsidian with a diamond pick. You are proposing it would take twice this long using a stone pick on stone. So think about the pain of making just a few simple furnaces, a set of cheap stone tools which most people prefer to use on stone and iron more than wasting their iron, and worst of all, a simple cobblestone house. Think about this.
OT: Also, I have a bad habit of being angry and unreasonable when i first see something I don't like. But it does help to bring out the other's argument.
Thank you very much for posting in a more constructive fashion, I do appreciate it. I agree with your point, that if stone was made harder to mine in a world that already doesn't compensate for it with a
deep mining experience would be very painful. Perhaps this shouldn't apply to current worlds. I liked the idea of trying it as a one time event, so that we could create a new world and try it out and have it revert to see what it might be like.
I'd like to see those deep underground caves link up with the ones that go to the surface, so that it is quite likely that one could start from the surface and make your way down to diamond levels. I actually find the drilling to the bottom and getting diamond at the moment, can be done in 10-15 minutes of a new world. I feel that a bit undermines the accomplishment.
Ok, your point about the sandbox one is much better. Currently there is 2 ways to mine. I feel if people truly enjoy the mine shafting way, it shouldn't be removed. I'd hate to take something out that people enjoy. I did start with the assumption that most people enjoy caving a lot more and wouldn't miss straight mineshafting too much, which could certainly be wrong. I guess that's for the community to chime in on. I personally like its efficiency and safety, but not its funness.
Your last point ignores my third part of the suggestion, that cobblestone be found near the top of the level with easy access to. Cobblestone would mine as it does now, so that large quantities of stone are available for use. (I realized how important it is)
"Strip mining is like watching paint dry, and shouldn't be encouraged one bit." Entirely based on opinion.
It's true, that is opinion, but so is the enjoyment of it, and these are fine things to comment on and state your own so we can have a concensus.
Perhaps some people enjoy just sitting back, relaxing, and doing some strip mining. By providing choice, you make a lot more people happy.
That's fair. I sincerely dont want to make a suggestion that makes the game less fun for a significant portion of players.
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A few notes: 30 seconds doesn't have to be the exact number, the number I want is just one that discourages players from mineshafting. 30 seconds probably is too long.
Those people ignoring points 2 and 3 need to read them, I don't want to have to respond to "Now there is no stone" or "There isn't enough caves for this to work" when clearly I wrote something for those specific cases.
For the record, I sort of enjoy the the mines I make myself.
Ores arn't that common, but when I stumble upon a vein of redstone, diamond, or even iron, It's like opening a little present burried very deep underground.
Cave mining is a bit worrisome for me, for some reason, I can never seem to remember where I just was, and often get lost in caves the game pre-made for me.
I usually find my way back out without digging out, and the walls seemingly lined with iron sometimes are a nice little boon, so I dunno. They're both favorable options for finding minerals to me, though I don't think I'd much appreciate being forced to only use one, or spend hours for the other.
Oh, and I have a point to make about forcing people to explore caves by making smoothstone take forever to mine. How do you dig yourself back out of a cave that you're hopelessly lost in?
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For the record, I sort of enjoy the the mines I make myself.
Ores arn't that common, but when I stumble upon a vein of redstone, diamond, or even iron, It's like opening a little present burried very deep underground.
Cave mining is a bit worrisome for me, fo some reason, I can never seem to remember where I just was, and often get lost in caves the game pre-made for me.
I usually find my way back out without digging out, and the walls seemingly lined with iron sometimes are a nice little boon, so I dunno. They're both favorable options for finding minerals to me, though I don't think I'd much appreciate being forced to only use one, or spend hours for the other.
Oh, and I have a point to make about forcing people to explore caves by making smoothstone take forever to mine. How do you dig yourself back out of a cave that you're hopelessly lost in?
Haha, my girlfriend said something to the same effect. She said it was like a scratch lottery ticket, most times you lose, but it feels awesome when she finds something. Which is a feeling I got, too, but quickly diminished, for me personally, after a few days of doing it. Now for me mineshafting is look up, look down, look up, look down, move forward. It has a very repetitive feel to it, while the randomness of caves have such variation that the same feeling doesn't overcome me. I'm generally more alert too, watching for baddies.
Your question, what if you get lost. That's a legitimate concern, though one of my points did address it stating that signs and other landmarks would have a greater effect. You can always place/remove dirt to make signals for yourself. Given time I think the community would come up with creative solutions to that specific problem.
I can't believe I forgot this, but what if you actually do get trapped in a cave.
It happened to me once, I fell down a really deep hole in a cave, but luckiliy I landed in some water.
(Note: I found tons of every mineral at the bottom of that hole after exploring a bit.)
Sadnly, I ran out of picks, eventually lost hope of ever seeing daylight again, and deleted the world.
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I can't believe I forgot this, but what if you actually do get trapped in a cave.
It happened to me once, I fell down a really deep hole in a cave, but luckiliy I landed in some water.
(Note: I found tons of every mineral at the bottom of that hole after exploring a bit.)
Sadnly, I ran out of picks, eventually lost hope of ever seeing daylight again, and deleted the world.
I can't believe I forgot this, but what if you actually do get trapped in a cave.
It happened to me once, I fell down a really deep hole in a cave, but luckiliy I landed in some water.
(Note: I found tons of every mineral at the bottom of that hole after exploring a bit.)
Sadnly, I ran out of picks, eventually lost hope of ever seeing daylight again, and deleted the world.
Killing yourself isn't an option?
With what? Couldn't find any lava.
It is odd that none was generated down there though...
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I tend to not carry mountains of dirt in my pocket when spelunking. Enough to climb out of a small hole, but I generally don't expect to fall down a "natural mineshaft" and live to tell the tale.
Less crap in your pockets when you go into the cave means you can carry more stuff out of the cave when you leave.
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I'm against this on a conceptual level. The biggest hole in this suggestion to me, is that it involves removing or crippling a particular playstyle you don't personally enjoy while promoting another particular playstyle. Making something as integral to this game as mining into a tedious hassle is highly counter-productive to the game as a whole. As it stands now, nothing is preventing you from enjoying cave-diving, but nothing is forcing you to do it, either. You can choose whichever methods you like. This idea will kill the game for people who actually like doing careful, planned underground work, wound it for people who prefer a more varied approach to resource gathering, and be seriously off-putting to casual gamers. I appreciate all the effort you put into this, but it's a lot of work to basically remove playstyle options from a game which has, as one of its strengths, the ability to let people have as much say in their personal experience as possible.
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Quote from will_holmes »
Quote from anon »
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that I'm the only person who plays Minecraft normally.
Every time I come to these forums, I think more and more that there is no such thing as playing Minecraft normally.
Aren't you just a peachy old fellow?
Anyways, as said before, to remove something that is in the ****ing title doesn't make sense. It's like making Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare about pissing on a tree, or Age of Empires involve you standing in a blizzard trying to find which way is up/
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Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
I have found that Minecraft can be too efficiently played safely.
And this is good.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
It's efficient, it's safe and mostly not fun.
Ok, just don't play this way.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
1) Make clean stone take a long time to mine, specifically with stone picks (30 seconds, estimate), noticeably with iron picks(10 seconds, estimate) and only a slight increase in difficulty with diamond picks(1 second estimate, or just keep it like it is).
And this idea ruins mining balance totally. All constructions will take much more time with no reason. Even cobblestone idea won't save it.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
2) Expand the frequency and depth of caves, especially those that originate from the surface.
Well, it is good thing, but it will make underground construction a lot more difficult, as you will have to deal with all those caves. Game world could turn into some kind of swiss cheese.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
What I hope these ideas promote/discourage:
1)Mine shafting would take too long, and be too boring to do (even though it already is really).
You're taking all the fun from this game. It's called MINEcraft for a reason.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
2) Cave exploration would be the efficient standard for mineral collection. The only stone you would bother to destroy is the one you can directly see blocking resources you want.
No real changes suggested here.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
3) Monster interaction would be unavoidable and a more integrated occurrence within the flow of the game, since there will be more dark unexplored areas one must enter if they wish to progress. This increases the importance of weapons/health items.
If Notch make those flickering out torches, you will have to deal with monsters more often - even in explored areas.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
4) If notch wanted to add complex dungeons into the algorithm of cave creation (which could be used as part of a narrative), the player has a higher likelihood of running into it doing cave exploration than he would strictly mine shafting.
If you're listening carefully, you have a chance to hear monsters in the cave dungeon. The rest is simple.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
This gives a somewhat Diablo I/II/Net hack/Rogue flow of the game, where as everything is random, but there is set and understood goals in addition that you naturally fall into.
IMO, the only goal that Minecraft should ever have is player's wishes and intentions.
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Two, algorithms can be written to commonly hide additional stone passages in the cave behind walls of dirt/gravel. It would grant the feeling of uncovering hidden passages.
Well, this is nice idea.
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
7) When cave systems near-by your house become exhausted, rather than having seemingly infinite directions to mine shaft and thusly never having to leave your starting location, you will be more inclined to transverse the landscape in search of more cave systems.
Stripping every block from the place i live is sure boring. I won't bother to do this anyway. But I need freedom to choose mining direction. Don't turn all rocks into something like obsidian.
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Diamonds difficulty in acquiring is increased as well as the feeling of joy achieving it.
Are you really thinking that diamonds aren't rare enough?! Dammit, I'm playing my current map for more than a month, and I've found only 30 diamonds (half of them was found via stripmining).
Quote from ShadowStarshine »
Feel free to poke any holes you might see in this idea, but I personally have a hard time seeing how mine shafting can ever measure up to the pleasure and excitement of cave exploration.
And again: if you don't like it - don't do it.
Just don't force others to play Minecraft your way.
Why do we want the game to flow more slowly? As it is a player can choose to be efficient/inefficient and choose to be safe/unsafe in how they play the game, and basically chooses why they play in doing so. Some wish to express a desire to be creative but enjoy a slight bit of antagonism - thus they like the knowledge that the danger is there though they avoid it. Others just wish to do something creative, and thus play on peaceful. Others want to adventure and go cave exploring and die repeatedly. People are allowed to choose the flow and fun of their game, and to me that's not a bad thing.
That said, I am highly in favor of increasing the number of caves that start at the surface and spider through the entirety of minecraft, as that would increase the likelihood, fun, and benefits of exploration as opposed to simple strip mining. However, I don't think any other methods should be employed because you shouldn't force the player into doing it. As it is we have a choice right now, and I think that's one of the beauties of minecraft.
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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology"
-Larry Niven
When I posted my own idea, I suggested that stone should be harder to mine ON HARD difficulty, so I think there's room for both of us.
I play on hard difficulty. Mining stone is tedious enough as it is. Please leave it alone.
Until now playing on Hard Difficulty hasn't been that much harder than Normal. Some even say that it's EASIER to play on Hard, so it's about time it earned its name. You should go play on Normal.
Ah knytt. Still trolling.
The only reason you should suggest that someone plays on a easier difficulty or hacks is that it's their problem, not the games. This would make it the games problem.
Okay, I'm going to try to get to everyones comments today and address them. If I skip over yours, it's likely because I've already addressed someone who said exactly what you said already.
But first, I want to talk about a common argument I see popping up, why it is a bad argument and how you can state it in another way if it is what you mean.
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"It is a bad idea because it removes choice".
I stated this in a previous post, I'll probably amend this to the OP if I remake this thread with adjustments. Choices are not what make games good. Good choices are what make games good.
If in Mario 1, you could pass each level by going underground and slowly mining your way to the flag pole without encountering monsters, the game would be less fun. You can argue that you just don't play it like that then. You're not being forced to mine through the level. No, of course not, but when a game has a goal of a sort you do what you can to achieve it and you then rate the experience based on the enjoyment of doing so.
Not only does Survival have what I would call "soft-goals", which is gathering resources, Notch plans to implement, one day, a "hard-goal", which is an overarching narrative that could potentially end the game (Which he has stated he wants to be near impossible, but that the goal be there). There is nothing wrong with evaluating how the enjoyment levels of the choices we are presented provide us with fun. There are many choices we currently do not have. We do not have the ability to spawn resources (Without cheats). We do not have the ability to destroy blocks with our hands in a fraction of a second. These impositions are good things.
Now, what you should be doing, is evaluating the choice of strip mining. I don't think my opinion of strip mining is some ultimate truth that everyone should adhere to. My proposal is an idea based on my opinion, possibly shared by others, possibly not, that strip mining is a choice that detracts from the fun of the game.
However, if you post something like this:
For the record, I sort of enjoy the the mines I make myself.
Ores arn't that common, but when I stumble upon a vein of redstone, diamond, or even iron, It's like opening a little present burried very deep underground.
You have just made a conflicting, but extremely valid statement. If you want to defend strip mining, please do it on its own merits, like this guy did, and not on the fallacy that choice is ALWAYS good.
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Making something as integral to this game as mining into a tedious hassle is highly counter-productive to the game as a whole.
My proposal specifically states ways to make it not integral. This is a false assertion.
This idea will kill the game for people who actually like doing careful, planned underground work, wound it for people who prefer a more varied approach to resource gathering, and be seriously off-putting to casual gamers.
I'd love to know what % of people find it fun, I may have to make a poll. If a decent % do find enjoyment in strip mining, I'd personally be for scrapping the stone idea. You might think "Well everyone here says its fun". Actually, no. I think 2 people said it was fun. Everyone else is defending choice so far.
Aren't you just a peachy old fellow?
Anyways, as said before, to remove something that is in the ****ing title doesn't make sense. It's like making Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare about pissing on a tree, or Age of Empires involve you standing in a blizzard trying to find which way is up/
A condescending post with superfluous analogies. You've offered nothing of substance.
Ok ShadowStarshine, although I agree some people here are replying like little kids it's actually your fault. Well not really, but you're provoking it.
No. You're being purposely ignorant, and a smartass.
This sums up why perfectly to be honest.
You're so convinced of your own opinion that you refuse/deny to understand the point other people are trying to make (purposefully ignorant) and instead retort with semi-comical remarks and restating what you last said (smartass). This provokes annoyed responses even if the poster themselves don't really know why.
But anyways, don't bother commenting on that since it's oftopic.
Don't try and get a last word in and ask me not to comment. That is unfair.
I am not so convinced of my opinion that I'm unwilling to take in criticism. Like you said, many posters were acting like kids. The first replies to this post were full of blanket statements, insults, posts that ignored parts of my OP to support an untrue argument (ex. How would we make stoves!?) and other fallacies. The only way I could have been ignorant was to make assumptions that these terrible posts have some higher truth that I must somehow extrapolate out of the garbage of the rest of it.
Thank goodness the second half of replies have increased in worth exponentially and I now actually have conflicting viewpoints with some substance, which I will take seriously. So don't call me ignorant.
Am I a smart ass? Yes, a bit I am. I have a dry sense of wit and I've probably used it in some of my replies. Feel free to call me a smart ass, but given the poor quality of the original replies, can you blame me? I actually thought I used more intelligence responding than I wanted to, which is probably a result of mass debating human rights against religious folks all the time.
You walk around and see a big mountain you've never seen before with light coming out of it. You walk towards it and see a cave with lava quite close to the surface. You return to your little base get geared up and go out to explore. You find that this cavern doesn't seem to end, but being the smart explorer you are, you took 8 stacks of torches with you and are gradually descending into the earth (without doing any kind of mining mind you). At some point you return out of the cave as a champion with just a few more torches, no more arrows or swords or food but full of diamond, redstone, iron and gold ore. After dumping of your treasure you reequip yourself and go back into the cave. After stripping the mine of all it's resources you move on to the next hole and the story repeats itself.
Right now I like to mine using stone picks so when I go explore I take about 9 stone picks with me and one diamond pick. However in your idea of minecraft I really would only need to take 1 diamond pick with me as the path is already laid out for you, you just have to take the goodies.
Now, to be honest this does sound very fun. It sounds a LOT more fun then stripmining (reason I never do it). But here is the problem your idea presents. To encourage this grand adventure you want to make mining less important. You really do want to change this game into Exlorecraft.
This is pretty close, but a few things were a bit off. I didn't insinuate lava is closer to the surface than general.
I suppose the flow is closer in my mind to:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches. (pretty close to normal game flow so far)
Make weaponry/armor/health items (This is more important, due to going into caves)
Make signs/roadmarks so you don't get lost. (Also now more important)
Make a few picks and a few shovels.
Go into cave, fight monsters, picking out coal and iron. Go back when you want to make sure not to lose your important loot. Or heck, bring treasure chest so you can slap it down half way and securely put stuff in it.
Re-equipt, go down further. Repeat until near bottom.
Find bloodstone/diamond.
Somewhere in this mess, find dungeons/other narratives. Estimated time in real hours (3-4) (perhaps longer, if monsters give you big trouble, but of course you can set your own difficulty)
My current game flow, with getting diamond in mind is:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches.
Make 10ish picks, 4ish shovels.
Dig a staircase into the bottom of the game.
Make more picks/shovels.
Dig sideways until I hit diamond.
Estimated time in real hours (.5-2) (depending how quick diamond shows up)
I would think that in my example game flow, finding diamond is still exciting.
Just not one I completely agree with (but seriously, get rid of that 30 second idea, cuz that's just wrong) =P
Sure. What do you think of, say, 6-8 seconds?
@Vindicar
I'm sorry, but you offered nothing of substance or really gave reasoning to your blanket statements.
@Hypevosa
This is another choice argument. If you feel strip mining is a positive choice in the game, offer reasoning.
@The guy who said it might discourage casual gamer (I lost where that was said)
That's a good point. Perhaps players who are into Facebook games (which is a large amount of revenue in the game industry) would be off put by having to deal with monsters. Although, I feel just putting it on peaceful for those players is still pretty good, and they can enjoy caving in safety. Do you still feel that would be off putting for them. If so, why?
I'll put this simply, I hate your idea(s).
This would ruin Minecraft (in my opinion). Honestly, I think this would cripple it and **** off ALOT of people.
There's probably more argument going on here than constructive criticism. Some of these criticism's could be easily fixed. Instead of having mining stone take 30 seconds, have it take 5, or have a new block that makes up most of the deeper layers of the world that's harder to break. Any number of suggestions could help.
As for the argument that this is "MINE"craft, going into caves and extracting ores with a pick axe is still mining, its just not strip mining. If you want to get analytical, then how often do you see a miner strip mine a 100x10x10 meter space in 2 days.
As for the argument that this game is getting objectives and should be based like that, I played Grand Theft Auto for hours upon hours and I never completed the storyline. That game was still ridiculously fun.
As a counter argument, I heard the storyline was great. So either way, regardless of the "objective" of what you're doing, you can still go do whatever you want. If you want to build a castle, you can still gather cobblestone like you normally would. You just mine horizontally instead of vertically.
As for the argument that this would make you a nomad, you don't need to give up your base to explore. Just build tracks connecting large plots of land, and have sub-bases organized to get you from place to place, so you can return back to your base at any time, while exploring for caves. The world of Minecraft is incredibly expansive, and it's a shame most people don't go further than 100 blocks from their house.
As for the resources are finite argument, if you keep exploring, you generate more land, if you generate more land, you generate more resources. Not only that, but Notch said he wanted to make Diamond more impressive.
I understand the idea that choices are a sandboxes best friend, but an objective can give an obvious direction others who like to play that way.
I stated this in a previous post, I'll probably amend this to the OP if I remake this thread with adjustments. Choices are not what make games good. Good choices are what make games good.
If in Mario 1, you could pass each level by going underground and slowly mining your way to the flag pole without encountering monsters, the game would be less fun. You can argue that you just don't play it like that then. You're not being forced to mine through the level. No, of course not, but when a game has a goal of a sort you do what you can to achieve it and you then rate the experience based on the enjoyment of doing so.
If the player makes a choice, and they enjoy the outcome of their choice, they've made a good choice. If the developer makes a choice for the player and the player doesn't enjoy the choice made for them, the developer has failed the player. Burdening the player with the choice, requiring them to weigh their values of success and enjoyment, is a good thing.
People would also adopt a more enjoyable playing style (assuming they don't enjoy the safe style) if they weren't almost pigeon holed into the safe way of play because of a never moving spawnpoint and the threat of losing all their time-earned gear and items in a world with limited resources.
Forcing the player to waste an unnecessary amount of time either finding the resources for and creating a tool that lets them mine around, or mine painfully slowly if they want to get anywhere, is not a good thing. Either caves would need to have an unnatural frequency of resources, or they'd need to be so common as to get to all the resources a player could need. By robbing the player of the ability to mine and move through the earth freely you require they have a large amount of coal and wood to make lightsources to illuminate all space they were forced to move through since their freedom was robbed from them.
It's a horrible idea, especially since the game already has a set flow, to purposefully slow play to a crawl. I would not have bought minecraft if I didn't have the freedom I have now, and I'm sure there are plenty of others who would also not have bothered if it took them 4 minutes to mine 8 smooth stone blocks. I already cringe when I mine obsidian, thank god I rarely have to - I wouldn't have been able to enjoy minecraft if half the blocks took that long to mine.
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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology"
-Larry Niven
I stated this in a previous post, I'll probably amend this to the OP if I remake this thread with adjustments. Choices are not what make games good. Good choices are what make games good.
If in Mario 1, you could pass each level by going underground and slowly mining your way to the flag pole without encountering monsters, the game would be less fun. You can argue that you just don't play it like that then. You're not being forced to mine through the level. No, of course not, but when a game has a goal of a sort you do what you can to achieve it and you then rate the experience based on the enjoyment of doing so.
I don't think you are getting it, so I drew a picture just for you. You have two equally fun goals (or more, but two is all I need for now) that the player can achieve. The player doesn't have to achieve either if he does not want to. There is no reason for the player to be unhappy.
With this in place however, the player has no choice but to go spelunking for diamonds. But what if he doesn't like doing this? Then the player gets to walk away with a sad face. With minecraft the way it is, there is no reason for the player to walk away from the game because he has to do something he doesn't like. In this situation, choice is a good thing.
Also, this does not help at all to discourage strip mining. It only puts another step in the process for you to be able to do it.
As for the argument that this game is getting objectives and should be based like that, I played Grand Theft Auto for hours upon hours and I never completed the storyline. That game was still ridiculously fun.
You make a good point. Though I didn't say the game had to be played in terms of the over all objective. Only that there would be one, and that the argument that the game is good because it doesn't have one is an incorrect assumption.
I agree with basically everything you said in your post otherwise.
@Hypevosa
Your post seems to only address parts of my OP and intentionally ignores other parts as there are assertions of a flow of game play that my OP specifically disagrees with.
I don't think you are getting it, so I drew a picture just for you. You have two equally fun goals (or more, but two is all I need for now) that the player can achieve. The player doesn't have to achieve either if he does not want to. There is no reason for the player to be unhappy.
Looking at your diagram, I get what you are saying. I will state, though, that "Build" is far to vague and untrue. If you are saying "Building in places where stone exist", then granted, I give you that. But it doesn't prevent making wooden houses and such at the same pace the game current exists. Though your point is still valid. It certainly would cause a delay on stone carving based building.
But what if he doesn't like doing this? Then the player gets to walk away with a sad face. With minecraft the way it is, there is no reason for the player to walk away from the game because he has to do something he doesn't like.
Well, exactly. What if. If people don't like cave exploring, and people love strip mining, it's a bad idea. Granted. Feedback, however, on that specific point, is required.
I'm sorry, I might be unable to take anything you write serious anymore. But if it's an consolation, you are now a meme among my roomates. Anything that involves "Going to objective A, Doing Something, and Progressing" is now a console shooter.
Making dinner was a console shooter. Coming back to make this post to you is also a console shooter. Specifically console too, cause it would be silly to think that making dinner is a PC shooter.
Thank you very much for posting in a more constructive fashion, I do appreciate it. I agree with your point, that if stone was made harder to mine in a world that already doesn't compensate for it with a
deep mining experience would be very painful. Perhaps this shouldn't apply to current worlds. I liked the idea of trying it as a one time event, so that we could create a new world and try it out and have it revert to see what it might be like.
I'd like to see those deep underground caves link up with the ones that go to the surface, so that it is quite likely that one could start from the surface and make your way down to diamond levels. I actually find the drilling to the bottom and getting diamond at the moment, can be done in 10-15 minutes of a new world. I feel that a bit undermines the accomplishment.
Ok, your point about the sandbox one is much better. Currently there is 2 ways to mine. I feel if people truly enjoy the mine shafting way, it shouldn't be removed. I'd hate to take something out that people enjoy. I did start with the assumption that most people enjoy caving a lot more and wouldn't miss straight mineshafting too much, which could certainly be wrong. I guess that's for the community to chime in on. I personally like its efficiency and safety, but not its funness.
Your last point ignores my third part of the suggestion, that cobblestone be found near the top of the level with easy access to. Cobblestone would mine as it does now, so that large quantities of stone are available for use. (I realized how important it is)
It's true, that is opinion, but so is the enjoyment of it, and these are fine things to comment on and state your own so we can have a concensus.
That's fair. I sincerely dont want to make a suggestion that makes the game less fun for a significant portion of players.
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A few notes: 30 seconds doesn't have to be the exact number, the number I want is just one that discourages players from mineshafting. 30 seconds probably is too long.
Those people ignoring points 2 and 3 need to read them, I don't want to have to respond to "Now there is no stone" or "There isn't enough caves for this to work" when clearly I wrote something for those specific cases.
Ores arn't that common, but when I stumble upon a vein of redstone, diamond, or even iron, It's like opening a little present burried very deep underground.
Cave mining is a bit worrisome for me, for some reason, I can never seem to remember where I just was, and often get lost in caves the game pre-made for me.
I usually find my way back out without digging out, and the walls seemingly lined with iron sometimes are a nice little boon, so I dunno. They're both favorable options for finding minerals to me, though I don't think I'd much appreciate being forced to only use one, or spend hours for the other.
Oh, and I have a point to make about forcing people to explore caves by making smoothstone take forever to mine. How do you dig yourself back out of a cave that you're hopelessly lost in?
To read the haiku that you
Just finished reading
Haha, my girlfriend said something to the same effect. She said it was like a scratch lottery ticket, most times you lose, but it feels awesome when she finds something. Which is a feeling I got, too, but quickly diminished, for me personally, after a few days of doing it. Now for me mineshafting is look up, look down, look up, look down, move forward. It has a very repetitive feel to it, while the randomness of caves have such variation that the same feeling doesn't overcome me. I'm generally more alert too, watching for baddies.
Your question, what if you get lost. That's a legitimate concern, though one of my points did address it stating that signs and other landmarks would have a greater effect. You can always place/remove dirt to make signals for yourself. Given time I think the community would come up with creative solutions to that specific problem.
It happened to me once, I fell down a really deep hole in a cave, but luckiliy I landed in some water.
(Note: I found tons of every mineral at the bottom of that hole after exploring a bit.)
Sadnly, I ran out of picks, eventually lost hope of ever seeing daylight again, and deleted the world.
To read the haiku that you
Just finished reading
Killing yourself isn't an option?
"Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
Click here for an awsome game
With what? Couldn't find any lava.
It is odd that none was generated down there though...
To read the haiku that you
Just finished reading
Less crap in your pockets when you go into the cave means you can carry more stuff out of the cave when you leave.
To read the haiku that you
Just finished reading
Anyways, as said before, to remove something that is in the ****ing title doesn't make sense. It's like making Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare about pissing on a tree, or Age of Empires involve you standing in a blizzard trying to find which way is up/
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
And this is good.
Ok, just don't play this way.
And this idea ruins mining balance totally. All constructions will take much more time with no reason. Even cobblestone idea won't save it.
Well, it is good thing, but it will make underground construction a lot more difficult, as you will have to deal with all those caves. Game world could turn into some kind of swiss cheese.
You're taking all the fun from this game. It's called MINEcraft for a reason.
No real changes suggested here.
If Notch make those flickering out torches, you will have to deal with monsters more often - even in explored areas.
If you're listening carefully, you have a chance to hear monsters in the cave dungeon. The rest is simple.
IMO, the only goal that Minecraft should ever have is player's wishes and intentions.
Well, this is nice idea.
Stripping every block from the place i live is sure boring. I won't bother to do this anyway. But I need freedom to choose mining direction. Don't turn all rocks into something like obsidian.
Are you really thinking that diamonds aren't rare enough?! Dammit, I'm playing my current map for more than a month, and I've found only 30 diamonds (half of them was found via stripmining).
And again: if you don't like it - don't do it.
Just don't force others to play Minecraft your way.
That said, I am highly in favor of increasing the number of caves that start at the surface and spider through the entirety of minecraft, as that would increase the likelihood, fun, and benefits of exploration as opposed to simple strip mining. However, I don't think any other methods should be employed because you shouldn't force the player into doing it. As it is we have a choice right now, and I think that's one of the beauties of minecraft.
-Arthur C. Clark
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology"
-Larry Niven
Ah knytt. Still trolling.
The only reason you should suggest that someone plays on a easier difficulty or hacks is that it's their problem, not the games. This would make it the games problem.
But first, I want to talk about a common argument I see popping up, why it is a bad argument and how you can state it in another way if it is what you mean.
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"It is a bad idea because it removes choice".
I stated this in a previous post, I'll probably amend this to the OP if I remake this thread with adjustments. Choices are not what make games good. Good choices are what make games good.
If in Mario 1, you could pass each level by going underground and slowly mining your way to the flag pole without encountering monsters, the game would be less fun. You can argue that you just don't play it like that then. You're not being forced to mine through the level. No, of course not, but when a game has a goal of a sort you do what you can to achieve it and you then rate the experience based on the enjoyment of doing so.
Not only does Survival have what I would call "soft-goals", which is gathering resources, Notch plans to implement, one day, a "hard-goal", which is an overarching narrative that could potentially end the game (Which he has stated he wants to be near impossible, but that the goal be there). There is nothing wrong with evaluating how the enjoyment levels of the choices we are presented provide us with fun. There are many choices we currently do not have. We do not have the ability to spawn resources (Without cheats). We do not have the ability to destroy blocks with our hands in a fraction of a second. These impositions are good things.
Now, what you should be doing, is evaluating the choice of strip mining. I don't think my opinion of strip mining is some ultimate truth that everyone should adhere to. My proposal is an idea based on my opinion, possibly shared by others, possibly not, that strip mining is a choice that detracts from the fun of the game.
However, if you post something like this:
You have just made a conflicting, but extremely valid statement. If you want to defend strip mining, please do it on its own merits, like this guy did, and not on the fallacy that choice is ALWAYS good.
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My proposal specifically states ways to make it not integral. This is a false assertion.
I'd love to know what % of people find it fun, I may have to make a poll. If a decent % do find enjoyment in strip mining, I'd personally be for scrapping the stone idea. You might think "Well everyone here says its fun". Actually, no. I think 2 people said it was fun. Everyone else is defending choice so far.
A condescending post with superfluous analogies. You've offered nothing of substance.
Don't try and get a last word in and ask me not to comment. That is unfair.
I am not so convinced of my opinion that I'm unwilling to take in criticism. Like you said, many posters were acting like kids. The first replies to this post were full of blanket statements, insults, posts that ignored parts of my OP to support an untrue argument (ex. How would we make stoves!?) and other fallacies. The only way I could have been ignorant was to make assumptions that these terrible posts have some higher truth that I must somehow extrapolate out of the garbage of the rest of it.
Thank goodness the second half of replies have increased in worth exponentially and I now actually have conflicting viewpoints with some substance, which I will take seriously. So don't call me ignorant.
Am I a smart ass? Yes, a bit I am. I have a dry sense of wit and I've probably used it in some of my replies. Feel free to call me a smart ass, but given the poor quality of the original replies, can you blame me? I actually thought I used more intelligence responding than I wanted to, which is probably a result of mass debating human rights against religious folks all the time.
This is pretty close, but a few things were a bit off. I didn't insinuate lava is closer to the surface than general.
I suppose the flow is closer in my mind to:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches. (pretty close to normal game flow so far)
Make weaponry/armor/health items (This is more important, due to going into caves)
Make signs/roadmarks so you don't get lost. (Also now more important)
Make a few picks and a few shovels.
Go into cave, fight monsters, picking out coal and iron. Go back when you want to make sure not to lose your important loot. Or heck, bring treasure chest so you can slap it down half way and securely put stuff in it.
Re-equipt, go down further. Repeat until near bottom.
Find bloodstone/diamond.
Somewhere in this mess, find dungeons/other narratives.
Estimated time in real hours (3-4) (perhaps longer, if monsters give you big trouble, but of course you can set your own difficulty)
My current game flow, with getting diamond in mind is:
Start world, get wood, make shelter, wooden pick. Use wooden pick on found cobblestone, get stone picks.
Get close to surface coal, make torches.
Make 10ish picks, 4ish shovels.
Dig a staircase into the bottom of the game.
Make more picks/shovels.
Dig sideways until I hit diamond.
Estimated time in real hours (.5-2) (depending how quick diamond shows up)
I would think that in my example game flow, finding diamond is still exciting.
Sure. What do you think of, say, 6-8 seconds?
@Vindicar
I'm sorry, but you offered nothing of substance or really gave reasoning to your blanket statements.
@Hypevosa
This is another choice argument. If you feel strip mining is a positive choice in the game, offer reasoning.
@The guy who said it might discourage casual gamer (I lost where that was said)
That's a good point. Perhaps players who are into Facebook games (which is a large amount of revenue in the game industry) would be off put by having to deal with monsters. Although, I feel just putting it on peaceful for those players is still pretty good, and they can enjoy caving in safety. Do you still feel that would be off putting for them. If so, why?
This would ruin Minecraft (in my opinion). Honestly, I think this would cripple it and **** off ALOT of people.
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
As for the argument that this is "MINE"craft, going into caves and extracting ores with a pick axe is still mining, its just not strip mining. If you want to get analytical, then how often do you see a miner strip mine a 100x10x10 meter space in 2 days.
As for the argument that this game is getting objectives and should be based like that, I played Grand Theft Auto for hours upon hours and I never completed the storyline. That game was still ridiculously fun.
As a counter argument, I heard the storyline was great. So either way, regardless of the "objective" of what you're doing, you can still go do whatever you want. If you want to build a castle, you can still gather cobblestone like you normally would. You just mine horizontally instead of vertically.
As for the argument that this would make you a nomad, you don't need to give up your base to explore. Just build tracks connecting large plots of land, and have sub-bases organized to get you from place to place, so you can return back to your base at any time, while exploring for caves. The world of Minecraft is incredibly expansive, and it's a shame most people don't go further than 100 blocks from their house.
As for the resources are finite argument, if you keep exploring, you generate more land, if you generate more land, you generate more resources. Not only that, but Notch said he wanted to make Diamond more impressive.
I understand the idea that choices are a sandboxes best friend, but an objective can give an obvious direction others who like to play that way.
[*:2rm8r43i]My ideas
[*:2rm8r43i]Rhinoceroscity's Flying Mounts
[*:2rm8r43i]Mobs; Firehazurd's: 1; Rhinoceroscity's: 1 2
If the player makes a choice, and they enjoy the outcome of their choice, they've made a good choice. If the developer makes a choice for the player and the player doesn't enjoy the choice made for them, the developer has failed the player. Burdening the player with the choice, requiring them to weigh their values of success and enjoyment, is a good thing.
People would also adopt a more enjoyable playing style (assuming they don't enjoy the safe style) if they weren't almost pigeon holed into the safe way of play because of a never moving spawnpoint and the threat of losing all their time-earned gear and items in a world with limited resources.
Forcing the player to waste an unnecessary amount of time either finding the resources for and creating a tool that lets them mine around, or mine painfully slowly if they want to get anywhere, is not a good thing. Either caves would need to have an unnatural frequency of resources, or they'd need to be so common as to get to all the resources a player could need. By robbing the player of the ability to mine and move through the earth freely you require they have a large amount of coal and wood to make lightsources to illuminate all space they were forced to move through since their freedom was robbed from them.
It's a horrible idea, especially since the game already has a set flow, to purposefully slow play to a crawl. I would not have bought minecraft if I didn't have the freedom I have now, and I'm sure there are plenty of others who would also not have bothered if it took them 4 minutes to mine 8 smooth stone blocks. I already cringe when I mine obsidian, thank god I rarely have to - I wouldn't have been able to enjoy minecraft if half the blocks took that long to mine.
-Arthur C. Clark
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology"
-Larry Niven
I don't think you are getting it, so I drew a picture just for you. You have two equally fun goals (or more, but two is all I need for now) that the player can achieve. The player doesn't have to achieve either if he does not want to. There is no reason for the player to be unhappy.
With this in place however, the player has no choice but to go spelunking for diamonds. But what if he doesn't like doing this? Then the player gets to walk away with a sad face. With minecraft the way it is, there is no reason for the player to walk away from the game because he has to do something he doesn't like. In this situation, choice is a good thing.
Also, this does not help at all to discourage strip mining. It only puts another step in the process for you to be able to do it.
Edit: Made image slightly clearer.
"Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
Click here for an awsome game
You make a good point. Though I didn't say the game had to be played in terms of the over all objective. Only that there would be one, and that the argument that the game is good because it doesn't have one is an incorrect assumption.
I agree with basically everything you said in your post otherwise.
@Hypevosa
Your post seems to only address parts of my OP and intentionally ignores other parts as there are assertions of a flow of game play that my OP specifically disagrees with.
Looking at your diagram, I get what you are saying. I will state, though, that "Build" is far to vague and untrue. If you are saying "Building in places where stone exist", then granted, I give you that. But it doesn't prevent making wooden houses and such at the same pace the game current exists. Though your point is still valid. It certainly would cause a delay on stone carving based building.
Well, exactly. What if. If people don't like cave exploring, and people love strip mining, it's a bad idea. Granted. Feedback, however, on that specific point, is required.