Ok... So.
I don't usually post in the "Recent Updates" section on the forums, but I was browsing through, and I have been seeing far too many disagreements on what is skill and what isn't.
So I'd like to create a definition. Hopefully others will agree with me on what this means.
Skill Skill is an ability you have gotten good at, through practice and training. Skill includes things that require muscle memory, or the ability of your finger to automatically click at the perfect timing.
Skill aspects about 1.8:
In my humble opinion, 1.8 required a lot more skill than 1.9.
This does not mean I like 1.8 better
Jitterclicking is a skill. It takes practice to learn.
Fighting with a fishing rod is also a skill. It takes practice to learn the timing.
Using a bow, and hitting what you aim at, is a skill.
Since there was a ton of both of those in 1.8, and it was a bit more complicated, I think it required more skill.
But I could also be wrong on that. Lets list the Skill aspects in 1.9 for comparison. Skill aspects about 1.9:
Learning to time your blows right, to get the maximum damage per second, takes skill.
Learning to alternate between a shield and a sword takes skill.
Learning to use a bow, also takes skill.
But, these things do not take as much time to learn, meaning they do not take as much skill
Strategy Strategy is a plan created to counter or fight something in particular. Quick Strategic thinking is the ability to think on your feet, to create these strategies in the middle of a fight. A Strategy can and usually does include considering your skill, and using that to your advantage.
Strategies in 1.8
Use blocks for cover
Create traps for mobs and players
Defend your houses with fences and walls.
...
But my issue, is that for a large percentage of the time, those and strategies similar were thrown out the window, in favor of running straight at the mob or player in question, and using a spamclicking skill to take them all out. 1.8 was a one track strategy: See enemy, run forward and kill. The reason no one used any other strategies was that fights were, once started, fast and furious, with no little breaks for a chance to do something else, and they were over so quickly that there was no chance to think of anything else.
People say that 1.8 required more skill, because it was faster. I would have to agree.
But speedy fights are not necessarily a good thing. Strategies in 1.9 Use blocks for cover
Create Traps
Defend your houses
Use a strong axe, or a quick sword
Hold a defensive shield, or an offensive bow in your off hand.
Use the terrain to your advantage, since you have a little more time to wait before attacking
The removal of spamclicking, gave small breaks between attacks to do something else, switch to a shield or enderpearl, have them chase you to a trap, throw or drink a potion, ect.
This increased the strategy used in game.
Now, I'm not Mojang. But simply from observing, I would have to say 1.9 was meant to reduce skill, and replace it with strategy.
Can you see the difference? I made this post because people are fighting about whether 1.8 took more skill or not. But all that is distracting from the fact that there is more to PvP than skill, and maybe that is what Mojang was focusing on, rather than skill.
So all you people out there who say that jitterclicking and fishpoleing took more skill, and that 1.9 took away skill, I agree. It did. People who are saying 1.9 takes more skill... you are usually going to lose that battle.
But that is not a bad thing. I like 1.9 better, not because it adds skill, but because it adds more strategy.
Thank you. I hope this wasn't overly confusing. I love questions, and such, so please ask them! I want to know if this cleared things up a little.
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Well said, I agree completely. I like more thinking of strategy than using of straightforward force and highly trained skills in very fast paced combat. Therefore 1.9 is good for my style of play but I understand that players with different preferences does not like it. It is fascinating possibility that less skilled and equipped player have a change to win a fight against more skilled or equipped enemy (player or mob) by using his intelligence. I like such situations also in real life, for example in sports.
Exactly! Personally, I really like the Pokemon Adventures Manga (The TV series is a little lame), simply because of all the strategy that can go into a battle. You never know who is going to win until they do
To make things even more interesting, the attack cooldown in 1.9 is about 0.5 0.6 secs.
Which is really almost about the same as it was last time, this just forces people to really try and use other things.
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Ok... So.
I don't usually post in the "Recent Updates" section on the forums, but I was browsing through, and I have been seeing far too many disagreements on what is skill and what isn't.
So I'd like to create a definition. Hopefully others will agree with me on what this means.
Skill Skill is an ability you have gotten good at, through practice and training. Skill includes things that require muscle memory, or the ability of your finger to automatically click at the perfect timing.
Skill aspects about 1.8:
In my humble opinion, 1.8 required a lot more skill than 1.9.
This does not mean I like 1.8 better
Jitterclicking is a skill. It takes practice to learn. --It doesn't take nearly as much practice as it does a good mouse.
Fighting with a fishing rod is also a skill. It takes practice to learn the timing. --It also is still somewhat a thing in 1.9.
Using a bow, and hitting what you aim at, is a skill. --Still a thing in 1.9.
Since there was a ton of both of those in 1.8, and it was a bit more complicated, I think it required more skill.
But I could also be wrong on that. Lets list the Skill aspects in 1.9 for comparison. Skill aspects about 1.9:
Learning to time your blows right, to get the maximum damage per second, takes skill. --Yes, it is much harder to hit at an exact rhythm than it is to just hit really fast.
Learning to alternate between a shield and a sword takes skill. --Yes, it is significantly harder to do this than to use a fishing rod right, in my opinion.
Learning to use a bow, also takes skill. --Was a thing in 1.8.
But, these things do not take as much time to learn, meaning they do not take as much skill. -- Completely unfounded. Clicking really fast is harder than clicking at a set rhythm?
Strategy Strategy is a plan created to counter or fight something in particular. Quick Strategic thinking is the ability to think on your feet, to create these strategies in the middle of a fight. A Strategy can and usually does include considering your skill, and using that to your advantage.
Strategies in 1.8
Use blocks for cover
Create traps for mobs and players
Defend your houses with fences and walls.
...
But my issue, is that for a large percentage of the time, those and strategies similar were thrown out the window, in favor of running straight at the mob or player in question, and using a spamclicking skill to take them all out. 1.8 was a one track strategy: See enemy, run forward and kill. The reason no one used any other strategies was that fights were, once started, fast and furious, with no little breaks for a chance to do something else, and they were over so quickly that there was no chance to think of anything else.
People say that 1.8 required more skill, because it was faster. I would have to agree.
But speedy fights are not necessarily a good thing. Strategies in 1.9 Use blocks for cover
Create Traps
Defend your houses
Use a strong axe, or a quick sword
Hold a defensive shield, or an offensive bow in your off hand.
Use the terrain to your advantage, since you have a little more time to wait before attacking
The removal of spamclicking, gave small breaks between attacks to do something else, switch to a shield or enderpearl, have them chase you to a trap, throw or drink a potion, ect.
This increased the strategy used in game.
Now, I'm not Mojang. But simply from observing, I would have to say 1.9 was meant to reduce skill, and replace it with strategy.
Can you see the difference? I made this post because people are fighting about whether 1.8 took more skill or not. But all that is distracting from the fact that there is more to PvP than skill, and maybe that is what Mojang was focusing on, rather than skill.
So all you people out there who say that jitterclicking and fishpoleing took more skill, and that 1.9 took away skill, I agree. It did. People who are saying 1.9 takes more skill... you are usually going to lose that battle.
But that is not a bad thing. I like 1.9 better, not because it adds skill, but because it adds more strategy.
Thank you. I hope this wasn't overly confusing. I love questions, and such, so please ask them! I want to know if this cleared things up a little.
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Well, clicking really fast is harder on your hand
My point is that it does take more practice, I think, to fight with the 1.8 style, otherwise there wouldn't be such a huge difference between new players and old players in PvP level. But I'll see some players simply destroying everyone they come into contact with, so it does take practice.
The new style, I think, leaves room for less experienced players to come out ahead, using different types of attacks and such.
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Skill Skill is an ability you have gotten good at, through practice and training. Skill includes things that require muscle memory, or the ability of your finger to automatically click at the perfect timing.
Skill is the ability to do something well. That is all. You don't need to shoehorn in things like "practice and training" to fit your own agenda.
Strategy Strategy is a plan created to counter or fight something in particular. Quick Strategic thinking is the ability to think on your feet, to create these strategies in the middle of a fight. A Strategy can and usually does include considering your skill, and using that to your advantage.
A strategy is a plan created to achieve a goal in the long term. In a case like Minecraft, you do not create a strategy in the middle of a fight. You're thinking of tactics. A strategy is what you're going to do - the plan. Tactics are the means to that end. Your strategy is to win the fight using x, y and z tactics. Those tactics are part of your strategy. You will come up with and use more tactics mid-fight. The more you have prepared, the more likely you are to win.
That is all semantics, of course, but I decided to clarify on these things because you seemed so ready to create definitions for words which already have definitions (that's why they exist).
But my issue, is that for a large percentage of the time, those and strategies similar were thrown out the window, in favor of running straight at the mob or player in question, and using a spamclicking skill to take them all out. 1.8 was a one track strategy: See enemy, run forward and kill. The reason no one used any other strategies was that fights were, once started, fast and furious, with no little breaks for a chance to do something else, and they were over so quickly that there was no chance to think of anything else.
People say that 1.8 required more skill, because it was faster. I would have to agree.
But speedy fights are not necessarily a good thing. Strategies in 1.9 Use blocks for cover
Create Traps
Defend your houses
Use a strong axe, or a quick sword
Hold a defensive shield, or an offensive bow in your off hand.
Use the terrain to your advantage, since you have a little more time to wait before attacking
These are mostly just tactics. Imagine it this way. It is a strategy if you come up with it beforehand, usually. Things like which directions you will attack from, what weapons you will use, your group's formation and so on. Things like using terrain to your advantage is usually a tactic because you do it on the spot, but have in mind already that you may use it.
The removal of spamclicking, gave small breaks between attacks to do something else, switch to a shield or enderpearl, have them chase you to a trap, throw or drink a potion, ect.
This increased the strategy used in game.
Even if your definition of strategy is twisted, I might agree. Might.
Now, I'm not Mojang. But simply from observing, I would have to say 1.9 was meant to reduce skill, and replace it with strategy.
Can you see the difference? I made this post because people are fighting about whether 1.8 took more skill or not. But all that is distracting from the fact that there is more to PvP than skill, and maybe that is what Mojang was focusing on, rather than skill.
So all you people out there who say that jitterclicking and fishpoleing took more skill, and that 1.9 took away skill, I agree. It did. People who are saying 1.9 takes more skill... you are usually going to lose that battle.
But that is not a bad thing. I like 1.9 better, not because it adds skill, but because it adds more strategy.
Thank you. I hope this wasn't overly confusing. I love questions, and such, so please ask them! I want to know if this cleared things up a little.
The inherent issue here is that your definitions of strategy and skill are all wrong. 'Having skill' is quite interchangeable with 'being good'. Good tactics and strategy are also skills. 1.9 removed old skills and added new ones. So where is the problem?
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Well, clicking really fast is harder on your hand
My point is that it does take more practice, I think, to fight with the 1.8 style, otherwise there wouldn't be such a huge difference between new players and old players in PvP level. But I'll see some players simply destroying everyone they come into contact with, so it does take practice.
The new style, I think, leaves room for less experienced players to come out ahead, using different types of attacks and such.
That is not true. Just because experienced players are better at PvP than new players, in 1.8, doesn't mean that 1.8 combat takes more skill. Spamclicking is something that really takes little skill and practice(like hitting a drum as fast as possible), but timing it with the combat cooldown takes more(like playing a song on a drum). The skills that really make an experienced player better at PvP than a new one aren't spamclicking. It can really just be general familiarity with the game, and how it works(Understanding the terrain is harder if you are newer). Another is reaction time. Reaction time is important with both 1.8 and 1.9 PvP. A new player often times doesn't really know what is happening, as they are new and haven't seen such happen before, whereas an experienced player can easily adjust to different scenarios(Such as being ambushed, or having them circle around you). I find that newer players tend to just generally be slower in combat situations, take more time figuring out that they are being attacked, take more time realizing the enemy moved, et cetera.
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Someone once said, in defense of a poorly thought out suggestion that was not being supported: "Theres so much awesome and rare things to add and youre just like, oh , thats too good, no, i want something common like a grass block"
I would argue that mastering any possible combination of dual wielded items is a potentially long set of new skills. Even the "new" weapons mean you could chose to fight with two melee weapons and switch those mid-combat, a skill that already existed but with fewer weapons available. So 1.9 could require also more skill, not only more strategy.
I'm just speaking theoretically here because the lag is preventing me to actually fight monsters in the game now, but that's a different story.
In terms of PvE there's definitely a more skill involved, if only because Glorious Spam isn't vastly more effective than any other tactic while requiring virtually no skill at all.
That said, most mobs require fairly similar tactics because a lot of them are really similar. For example, my strategy for all melee mobs is almost exactly the same (get close enough to hit without getting in their range, hit, back up, repeat until dead) with only slight variations for a few mobs (look at knees of endermen and do that, back up significantly more for creepers so they don't explode a mile away from me and leave a hole that I inevitably don't have the dirt to fill). The only mobs that require remotely unique tactics are skeletons and the exotic ranged mobs that you almost never see, and even those are often not particularly special (skeletons just involve turtling and moving close when safe, witches are the exact same thing as melee mobs except without the backing up step, blazes are the same as witches except I wait for them to fire a salvo first, etc).
I would say that PvE will be in pretty good shape once we fix the whole "mobs have no variety" problem that's plagued the game since forever. PvP still requires more complexity IMO; combat is still too simple and players are still too similar in capabilities for PvP to have much room for skill-based combat beyond the basic level, but it's better than it was before.
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In terms of PvE there's definitely a more skill involved, if only because Glorious Spam isn't vastly more effective than any other tactic while requiring virtually no skill at all.
That said, most mobs require fairly similar tactics because a lot of them are really similar. For example, my strategy for all melee mobs is almost exactly the same (get close enough to hit without getting in their range, hit, back up, repeat until dead) with only slight variations for a few mobs (look at knees of endermen and do that, back up significantly more for creepers so they don't explode a mile away from me and leave a hole that I inevitably don't have the dirt to fill). The only mobs that require remotely unique tactics are skeletons and the exotic ranged mobs that you almost never see, and even those are often not particularly special (skeletons just involve turtling and moving close when safe, witches are the exact same thing as melee mobs except without the backing up step, blazes are the same as witches except I wait for them to fire a salvo first, etc).
I would say that PvE will be in pretty good shape once we fix the whole "mobs have no variety" problem that's plagued the game since forever. PvP still requires more complexity IMO; combat is still too simple and players are still too similar in capabilities for PvP to have much room for skill-based combat beyond the basic level, but it's better than it was before.
Good to hear you at least think its an improvement. Personally I don't see vanilla going too much farther than this difficulty wise. I think Mojang is looking to add features and leave it up to the players/servers to mod their gameplay to meet their expectations. I already see a parent complaining in the survival forum that their young child is struggling with being unable to spam click.
That is not true. Just because experienced players are better at PvP than new players, in 1.8, doesn't mean that 1.8 combat takes more skill. Spamclicking is something that really takes little skill and practice(like hitting a drum as fast as possible), but timing it with the combat cooldown takes more(like playing a song on a drum). The skills that really make an experienced player better at PvP than a new one aren't spamclicking. It can really just be general familiarity with the game, and how it works(Understanding the terrain is harder if you are newer). Another is reaction time. Reaction time is important with both 1.8 and 1.9 PvP. A new player often times doesn't really know what is happening, as they are new and haven't seen such happen before, whereas an experienced player can easily adjust to different scenarios(Such as being ambushed, or having them circle around you). I find that newer players tend to just generally be slower in combat situations, take more time figuring out that they are being attacked, take more time realizing the enemy moved, et cetera.
Aaaand this is turning into the same exact argument I was trying to avoid. :/
I would love it if it was eventually it was decided that 1.9 has more skill than 1.8. But at the moment, its close enough, and people differ enough that no one can say for sure and have most everyone else agree.
Like I say above, I want to bring out the point that pure skill is probably not the main reason for the 1.9 update. Everyone argues about removing the cooldown or this and that, because it "Takes away skill", but I still think that wasn't the point.
I guess, to finish off my reply to you, I have a question. You obviously think that 1.9 has more skill... but which has more strategy? Ignoring the skill of PvP altogether.
I would argue that mastering any possible combination of dual wielded items is a potentially long set of new skills. Even the "new" weapons mean you could chose to fight with two melee weapons and switch those mid-combat, a skill that already existed but with fewer weapons available. So 1.9 could require also more skill, not only more strategy.
I'm just speaking theoretically here because the lag is preventing me to actually fight monsters in the game now, but that's a different story.
Yep sure. That's a good point too, and I might use it later when I am thinking about this kinda thing. But your words "I would argue" followed by the words "1.9 could require more skill" is still what I am trying to avoid. If you would like to talk about that, please feel free to do so on another post.
If you wanna talk about strategy, this is the place!
Yeah! See, you now have a few more strategies that you need to employ to take down certain mobs, like shields and stuff! I do agree that there should be more tactics and mobs and stuff, but 1.9 is progress
Good to hear you at least think its an improvement. Personally I don't see vanilla going too much farther than this difficulty wise. I think Mojang is looking to add features and leave it up to the players/servers to mod their gameplay to meet their expectations. I already see a parent complaining in the survival forum that their young child is struggling with being unable to spam click.
I saw that too, and now I'm wondering how old the kid is... I've got a three year old brother that likes to click around on Minecraft sometimes, and he has the same problem now... Before he would see a zombie and make play-scared noises, say like "Zomie!", and click the mouse until one of them was dead. Now its a bit harder to do that.
So I'm guessing that the one dude has a kid about 5-6, or older with a mental disability (My brother is 14 and also has a little trouble changing to the new combat because he has a little bit of autism and he keeps forgetting not to spam.)
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Would you rather I said tactic? I guess Strategy is usually more of a long term plan, but it gets the message across, even if its not perfectly accurate.
I also looked through the wikipedia article that you found, and this was near the bottom:
"In game theory, a strategy refers to the rules that a player uses to choose between the available actionable options. Every player in a non-trivial game has a set of possible strategies to use when choosing what moves to make."
Even though Minecraft is more action oriented than, say, chess, you still have to choose whether to take another swing, or toss that potion and run.
I think your main problem here with the word "Strategy" is that it is too big. Generally, it means some large plan in war, something that is really important.
But sometimes, the game you are playing feels really important, doesn't it? And since in that game, the decisions really don't get much more important than what you decide, that can be called a strategy too.
I can see your point, if you still think its wrong. But please, I would rather you asked questions and posted about the content of the thread, and not the mistaken grammar.
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1.8 sword fighting was about 30% skill. All you had to to was button mash the hell out of your attack button, while trying to actually hit your opponent without him running behind you. I prefer STRATEGY!
Hmm... Lets see.
Is Strategy the overall plan that you have? Or is it, specifically, something you planned before? Because they can be different in different situations.
For example, if it is specifically planned before, is the actual action part of the strategy still called strategy?
If it is just the plan, you might not make one until you are actually in the fight, which would test your on-the-spot strategy making ability.
For the chess question, I think it would depend on the situation. If you have something planned out, then it would be part of the strategy. If you are simply moving because that seems to be your best move at the time, then it would be the entirety of your strategy.
Of course, I still consider part of a strategy a strategy. But that might just be my own definition.
Clarifying question: Which part of my post specifically do you think is not a strategy?
By your definition, I think, choosing whether you will use an axe or a sword, a shield or a bow, a horse or Eltyra, that would be a strategy. If you decide to use potions instead of attacking directly, or you set traps, that is a strategy, right?
What did I say that was a tactic, rather than a strategy?
I think knowing that would help me understand what you are trying to get at.
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Well no.
You can be skilled at creating strategies. You can be also skilled at applying that strategies. When you are at right place at the right time, this is skill and also can be a strategy. Because maybe you think through before it happens and planned accordingly. So when it is more challenging then it also needs more strategy thus more skill. You can't diffirentiate them. Skill is not only action
Then by your definition, each and every soldier is doing the job of a general, since they're enacting part of the overall strategy. Sorry, but no, part of a strategy isn't a strategy, that's an attempt to weaken the actual term and muddy up the language. It's like saying that you're carpenter because you've just hammered a nail into a wooden plank, or that you're a computer architect because you've just plugged a USB device in. No. Just.. no.
As I said, I think no part of your post can be called a strategy. Hell, take an example of a mixed group of mobs (skellies, zombies and spiders) near an open plain as well as a dense forest on a hill. You could plan to use the cover of the woods against the arrows and the large spiders, but having to hop up and down the hill would make evading the incoming zombies harder. On the other hand, attacking from the open plains with a bow would leave you more open to counterattacks from the skellies. That would be a tactical decision. Still not a strategic one.
I guess the closest thing I can think of that would qualify as a strategy would be to go out with a bunch of splash potions into a terrain you'vedeemed suitable to lure a bunch of mobs into a narrow area or into a body of water, and then use the prepared splash potions to kill them. It'd be about planning ahead and taking every aspect of the whole situation into account, weapons, terrain, enemy (group or single, fast or slow, melee or ranged, ..) Basically, it's Sun Tzu.
While his terminology may be incorrect, what he's trying to say isn't. Don't throw it out over some technicalities. A dented pot can still boil water.
I don't necessarily agree with your strategy example either. Strategy is the overall plan (usually made before engaging). The term itself doesn't imply that the plan has to be a good one. Nor does a poor strategy always fail. I have heard people differentiate that strategy is the plan made before combat and that tactics are smaller actions that are made in the field during the engagement. I don't necessarily subscribe to that view, however I do feel that tactics generally does apply to smaller scale plans of action...almost a subset of strategy which is the overall bigger picture plan. Both are nearly the same except in scale.
I didn't say each soldier was deciding to do this or that :/. The potion doesn't decide to jump out of your hand. The bishop you decided to move didn't do it on your own.
No, you aren't a carpenter for doing that little job. But are you a carpenter if you don't do that sort of job? (Not necessarily the nail, but if a carpenter does everything but carve wood, he's missing something important)
Personally, I would take those examples you gave me as a strategy. What makes them tactical rather than strategy?
I looked up tactic and found this:
"The terms tactic and strategy are often confused: tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan"
And while I see what you are talking about here, I'm not sure what difference it makes. Did you decide, like a strategy, to go up that hill to avoid the skeles? Or did you just do it because your captain told you to? That is what defines the difference, at least in my head.
Really, would you rather I called it Skill vs Tactics? I could do that, I suppose, though it wouldn't change the idea of the post in the slightest, (rose by any other name and all that) at least for me, and it might get a little confusing for those who don't spend time going into definitions and such.
Will changing the name and the post up have a significant impact on who reads this?
Now, for yourself, please imagine that all the words strategy in my post are replaced with the word tactic.
Please, tell me, what do you think of the points in the post then? This is almost getting off topic, because I was trying to discuss basic skills, vs your ability to change what you do during or before a fight, to make a plan and carry it out. You took that word and found a better definition, and now we have a decent sized conversation going on that, rather than the idea of the post.
Really, that is what I made this post for. :/ Everyone was arguing about totally random side things, instead of talking about that, what I think is, the main idea. So I made a post on it, to see what other people thought.
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Ok... So.
I don't usually post in the "Recent Updates" section on the forums, but I was browsing through, and I have been seeing far too many disagreements on what is skill and what isn't.
So I'd like to create a definition. Hopefully others will agree with me on what this means.
Skill
Skill is an ability you have gotten good at, through practice and training. Skill includes things that require muscle memory, or the ability of your finger to automatically click at the perfect timing.
Skill aspects about 1.8:
In my humble opinion, 1.8 required a lot more skill than 1.9.
This does not mean I like 1.8 better
Jitterclicking is a skill. It takes practice to learn.
Fighting with a fishing rod is also a skill. It takes practice to learn the timing.
Using a bow, and hitting what you aim at, is a skill.
Since there was a ton of both of those in 1.8, and it was a bit more complicated, I think it required more skill.
But I could also be wrong on that. Lets list the Skill aspects in 1.9 for comparison.
Skill aspects about 1.9:
Learning to time your blows right, to get the maximum damage per second, takes skill.
Learning to alternate between a shield and a sword takes skill.
Learning to use a bow, also takes skill.
But, these things do not take as much time to learn, meaning they do not take as much skill
Strategy
Strategy is a plan created to counter or fight something in particular. Quick Strategic thinking is the ability to think on your feet, to create these strategies in the middle of a fight. A Strategy can and usually does include considering your skill, and using that to your advantage.
Strategies in 1.8
Use blocks for cover
Create traps for mobs and players
Defend your houses with fences and walls.
...
But my issue, is that for a large percentage of the time, those and strategies similar were thrown out the window, in favor of running straight at the mob or player in question, and using a spamclicking skill to take them all out. 1.8 was a one track strategy: See enemy, run forward and kill. The reason no one used any other strategies was that fights were, once started, fast and furious, with no little breaks for a chance to do something else, and they were over so quickly that there was no chance to think of anything else.
People say that 1.8 required more skill, because it was faster. I would have to agree.
But speedy fights are not necessarily a good thing.
Strategies in 1.9
Use blocks for cover
Create Traps
Defend your houses
Use a strong axe, or a quick sword
Hold a defensive shield, or an offensive bow in your off hand.
Use the terrain to your advantage, since you have a little more time to wait before attacking
The removal of spamclicking, gave small breaks between attacks to do something else, switch to a shield or enderpearl, have them chase you to a trap, throw or drink a potion, ect.
This increased the strategy used in game.
Now, I'm not Mojang. But simply from observing, I would have to say 1.9 was meant to reduce skill, and replace it with strategy.
Can you see the difference? I made this post because people are fighting about whether 1.8 took more skill or not. But all that is distracting from the fact that there is more to PvP than skill, and maybe that is what Mojang was focusing on, rather than skill.
So all you people out there who say that jitterclicking and fishpoleing took more skill, and that 1.9 took away skill, I agree. It did. People who are saying 1.9 takes more skill... you are usually going to lose that battle.
But that is not a bad thing. I like 1.9 better, not because it adds skill, but because it adds more strategy.
Thank you. I hope this wasn't overly confusing. I love questions, and such, so please ask them! I want to know if this cleared things up a little.
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There's another skill - to hit right after the 0.5 damage immunity. It was (and still) there.
To make things even more interesting, the attack cooldown in 1.9 is about 0.5 0.6 secs.
Exactly! Personally, I really like the Pokemon Adventures Manga (The TV series is a little lame), simply because of all the strategy that can go into a battle. You never know who is going to win until they do
Oh yes. Should I add that? Or does the Timing Skill count that in as well?
Hopefully
Which is really almost about the same as it was last time, this just forces people to really try and use other things.
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Someone once said, in defense of a poorly thought out suggestion that was not being supported: "Theres so much awesome and rare things to add and youre just like, oh , thats too good, no, i want something common like a grass block"
Well, clicking really fast is harder on your hand
My point is that it does take more practice, I think, to fight with the 1.8 style, otherwise there wouldn't be such a huge difference between new players and old players in PvP level. But I'll see some players simply destroying everyone they come into contact with, so it does take practice.
The new style, I think, leaves room for less experienced players to come out ahead, using different types of attacks and such.
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Skill is the ability to do something well. That is all. You don't need to shoehorn in things like "practice and training" to fit your own agenda.
A strategy is a plan created to achieve a goal in the long term. In a case like Minecraft, you do not create a strategy in the middle of a fight. You're thinking of tactics. A strategy is what you're going to do - the plan. Tactics are the means to that end. Your strategy is to win the fight using x, y and z tactics. Those tactics are part of your strategy. You will come up with and use more tactics mid-fight. The more you have prepared, the more likely you are to win.
That is all semantics, of course, but I decided to clarify on these things because you seemed so ready to create definitions for words which already have definitions (that's why they exist).
These are mostly just tactics. Imagine it this way. It is a strategy if you come up with it beforehand, usually. Things like which directions you will attack from, what weapons you will use, your group's formation and so on. Things like using terrain to your advantage is usually a tactic because you do it on the spot, but have in mind already that you may use it.
Even if your definition of strategy is twisted, I might agree. Might.
The inherent issue here is that your definitions of strategy and skill are all wrong. 'Having skill' is quite interchangeable with 'being good'. Good tactics and strategy are also skills. 1.9 removed old skills and added new ones. So where is the problem?
That is not true. Just because experienced players are better at PvP than new players, in 1.8, doesn't mean that 1.8 combat takes more skill. Spamclicking is something that really takes little skill and practice(like hitting a drum as fast as possible), but timing it with the combat cooldown takes more(like playing a song on a drum). The skills that really make an experienced player better at PvP than a new one aren't spamclicking. It can really just be general familiarity with the game, and how it works(Understanding the terrain is harder if you are newer). Another is reaction time. Reaction time is important with both 1.8 and 1.9 PvP. A new player often times doesn't really know what is happening, as they are new and haven't seen such happen before, whereas an experienced player can easily adjust to different scenarios(Such as being ambushed, or having them circle around you). I find that newer players tend to just generally be slower in combat situations, take more time figuring out that they are being attacked, take more time realizing the enemy moved, et cetera.
Someone once said, in defense of a poorly thought out suggestion that was not being supported: "Theres so much awesome and rare things to add and youre just like, oh , thats too good, no, i want something common like a grass block"
I would argue that mastering any possible combination of dual wielded items is a potentially long set of new skills. Even the "new" weapons mean you could chose to fight with two melee weapons and switch those mid-combat, a skill that already existed but with fewer weapons available. So 1.9 could require also more skill, not only more strategy.
I'm just speaking theoretically here because the lag is preventing me to actually fight monsters in the game now, but that's a different story.
In terms of PvE there's definitely a more skill involved, if only because Glorious Spam isn't vastly more effective than any other tactic while requiring virtually no skill at all.
That said, most mobs require fairly similar tactics because a lot of them are really similar. For example, my strategy for all melee mobs is almost exactly the same (get close enough to hit without getting in their range, hit, back up, repeat until dead) with only slight variations for a few mobs (look at knees of endermen and do that, back up significantly more for creepers so they don't explode a mile away from me and leave a hole that I inevitably don't have the dirt to fill). The only mobs that require remotely unique tactics are skeletons and the exotic ranged mobs that you almost never see, and even those are often not particularly special (skeletons just involve turtling and moving close when safe, witches are the exact same thing as melee mobs except without the backing up step, blazes are the same as witches except I wait for them to fire a salvo first, etc).
I would say that PvE will be in pretty good shape once we fix the whole "mobs have no variety" problem that's plagued the game since forever. PvP still requires more complexity IMO; combat is still too simple and players are still too similar in capabilities for PvP to have much room for skill-based combat beyond the basic level, but it's better than it was before.
Good to hear you at least think its an improvement. Personally I don't see vanilla going too much farther than this difficulty wise. I think Mojang is looking to add features and leave it up to the players/servers to mod their gameplay to meet their expectations. I already see a parent complaining in the survival forum that their young child is struggling with being unable to spam click.
by c0yote
I tried it with terrible results. I gave my wife my glasses for a second, a creeper showed up and now my wife is pregnant.
Stupid 3D..
Aaaand this is turning into the same exact argument I was trying to avoid. :/
I would love it if it was eventually it was decided that 1.9 has more skill than 1.8. But at the moment, its close enough, and people differ enough that no one can say for sure and have most everyone else agree.
Like I say above, I want to bring out the point that pure skill is probably not the main reason for the 1.9 update. Everyone argues about removing the cooldown or this and that, because it "Takes away skill", but I still think that wasn't the point.
I guess, to finish off my reply to you, I have a question. You obviously think that 1.9 has more skill... but which has more strategy? Ignoring the skill of PvP altogether.
Yep sure. That's a good point too, and I might use it later when I am thinking about this kinda thing. But your words "I would argue" followed by the words "1.9 could require more skill" is still what I am trying to avoid. If you would like to talk about that, please feel free to do so on another post.
If you wanna talk about strategy, this is the place!
Yeah! See, you now have a few more strategies that you need to employ to take down certain mobs, like shields and stuff! I do agree that there should be more tactics and mobs and stuff, but 1.9 is progress
I saw that too, and now I'm wondering how old the kid is... I've got a three year old brother that likes to click around on Minecraft sometimes, and he has the same problem now... Before he would see a zombie and make play-scared noises, say like "Zomie!", and click the mouse until one of them was dead. Now its a bit harder to do that.
So I'm guessing that the one dude has a kid about 5-6, or older with a mental disability (My brother is 14 and also has a little trouble changing to the new combat because he has a little bit of autism and he keeps forgetting not to spam.)
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Would you rather I said tactic? I guess Strategy is usually more of a long term plan, but it gets the message across, even if its not perfectly accurate.
I also looked through the wikipedia article that you found, and this was near the bottom:
"In game theory, a strategy refers to the rules that a player uses to choose between the available actionable options. Every player in a non-trivial game has a set of possible strategies to use when choosing what moves to make."
Even though Minecraft is more action oriented than, say, chess, you still have to choose whether to take another swing, or toss that potion and run.
I think your main problem here with the word "Strategy" is that it is too big. Generally, it means some large plan in war, something that is really important.
But sometimes, the game you are playing feels really important, doesn't it? And since in that game, the decisions really don't get much more important than what you decide, that can be called a strategy too.
I can see your point, if you still think its wrong. But please, I would rather you asked questions and posted about the content of the thread, and not the mistaken grammar.
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1.8 sword fighting was about 30% skill. All you had to to was button mash the hell out of your attack button, while trying to actually hit your opponent without him running behind you. I prefer STRATEGY!
Hmm... Lets see.
Is Strategy the overall plan that you have? Or is it, specifically, something you planned before? Because they can be different in different situations.
For example, if it is specifically planned before, is the actual action part of the strategy still called strategy?
If it is just the plan, you might not make one until you are actually in the fight, which would test your on-the-spot strategy making ability.
For the chess question, I think it would depend on the situation. If you have something planned out, then it would be part of the strategy. If you are simply moving because that seems to be your best move at the time, then it would be the entirety of your strategy.
Of course, I still consider part of a strategy a strategy. But that might just be my own definition.
Clarifying question: Which part of my post specifically do you think is not a strategy?
By your definition, I think, choosing whether you will use an axe or a sword, a shield or a bow, a horse or Eltyra, that would be a strategy. If you decide to use potions instead of attacking directly, or you set traps, that is a strategy, right?
What did I say that was a tactic, rather than a strategy?
I think knowing that would help me understand what you are trying to get at.
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Well no.
You can be skilled at creating strategies. You can be also skilled at applying that strategies. When you are at right place at the right time, this is skill and also can be a strategy. Because maybe you think through before it happens and planned accordingly. So when it is more challenging then it also needs more strategy thus more skill. You can't diffirentiate them. Skill is not only action
While his terminology may be incorrect, what he's trying to say isn't. Don't throw it out over some technicalities. A dented pot can still boil water.
I don't necessarily agree with your strategy example either. Strategy is the overall plan (usually made before engaging). The term itself doesn't imply that the plan has to be a good one. Nor does a poor strategy always fail. I have heard people differentiate that strategy is the plan made before combat and that tactics are smaller actions that are made in the field during the engagement. I don't necessarily subscribe to that view, however I do feel that tactics generally does apply to smaller scale plans of action...almost a subset of strategy which is the overall bigger picture plan. Both are nearly the same except in scale.
by c0yote
I tried it with terrible results. I gave my wife my glasses for a second, a creeper showed up and now my wife is pregnant.
Stupid 3D..
I didn't say each soldier was deciding to do this or that :/. The potion doesn't decide to jump out of your hand. The bishop you decided to move didn't do it on your own.
No, you aren't a carpenter for doing that little job. But are you a carpenter if you don't do that sort of job? (Not necessarily the nail, but if a carpenter does everything but carve wood, he's missing something important)
Personally, I would take those examples you gave me as a strategy. What makes them tactical rather than strategy?
I looked up tactic and found this:
"The terms tactic and strategy are often confused: tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan"
And while I see what you are talking about here, I'm not sure what difference it makes. Did you decide, like a strategy, to go up that hill to avoid the skeles? Or did you just do it because your captain told you to? That is what defines the difference, at least in my head.
Really, would you rather I called it Skill vs Tactics? I could do that, I suppose, though it wouldn't change the idea of the post in the slightest, (rose by any other name and all that) at least for me, and it might get a little confusing for those who don't spend time going into definitions and such.
Will changing the name and the post up have a significant impact on who reads this?
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Now, for yourself, please imagine that all the words strategy in my post are replaced with the word tactic.
Please, tell me, what do you think of the points in the post then? This is almost getting off topic, because I was trying to discuss basic skills, vs your ability to change what you do during or before a fight, to make a plan and carry it out. You took that word and found a better definition, and now we have a decent sized conversation going on that, rather than the idea of the post.
Really, that is what I made this post for. :/ Everyone was arguing about totally random side things, instead of talking about that, what I think is, the main idea. So I made a post on it, to see what other people thought.
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