So your argument is that "lava, slimes, fall damage, the ways you can climb, Endermen, ghasts, farming, shulkers, and several other things" don't meaningfully contribute to gameplay dynamic? Color me unimpressed by your argument.
They contribute just as much as creepers do. If you believe otherwise, explain to me how these meaningfully contribute to gameplay in a way that creepers do not. Don't just unreasoningly dismiss it. There's no point in discussing things when you just "pfft" at the other person.
These things are either the same, or they are different. If they are of the same value as creepers, fine. If they are not, explain why they are different. There isn't a wrong answer here, only answers that contribute to understanding.
That said, all this "whattaboutery" is irrelevant to the fact that creepers are a poorly designed mob which contributes nothing to gameplay dynamic.
Repeating yourself doesn't really do anything. It's not irrelevant since it helps me understand what you're saying better using reference points we can both identify.
I was. And you were responding to my argument. Well if you're correct because you started this argument, I started this entire thread, and I think creepers are the most important mob. And so do the people who created the forum that I posted this thread on, and so did the people who created Minecraft so that this forum could be created.
So your argument is that "lava, slimes, fall damage, the ways you can climb, Endermen, ghasts, farming, shulkers, and several other things" don't meaningfully contribute to gameplay dynamic? Color me unimpressed by your argument. I fail to see your point.
They contribute just as much as creepers do. If you believe otherwise, explain to me how these meaningfully contribute to gameplay in a way that creepers do not. Don't just unreasoningly dismiss it. There's no point in discussing things when you just "pfft" at the other person.
This is true, but sometimes things are so obvious that it doesn't seem necessary. For instance, does one really have to explain how lava contributes to gameplay dynamic? Or fall damage? Really, I have to explain how fall damage contributes to gameplay dynamic? Pardon me, but pfft.
And even if they didn't contribute to gameplay dynamic, that doesn't change any of my points about creepers.
Well if you're correct because you started this argument, I started this entire thread, and I think creepers are the most important mob. And so do the people who created the forum that I posted this thread on, and so did the people who created Minecraft so that this forum could be created.[/b]
This is true, but sometimes things are so obvious that it doesn't seem necessary. For instance, does one really have to explain how lava contributes to gameplay dynamic? Or fall damage? Really, I have to explain how fall damage contributes to gameplay dynamic? Pardon me, but pfft.
And even if they didn't contribute to gameplay dynamic, that doesn't change any of my points about creepers.
I'm asking what the difference is, so I know why creepers are bad. I know they're not the same thing. That's why I'm asking you to tell me what the difference is, because in terms of "annoying diversions," they all equate the same to me. If you specifically want to limit it to mobs, then tell me about the difference between creepers and Endermen and ghasts.
By annoying diversion I mean specifically that the cleanup effort draws players away from actually engaging in combat, mining, exploring, building, slaying dragons, etc. And because of their prevalence, I just don't think there's anything enjoyable to being perpetually wary of avoiding custodial responsibilities.
By annoying diversion I mean specifically that the cleanup effort draws players away from actually engaging in combat, mining, exploring, building, slaying dragons, etc. And because of their prevalence, I just don't think there's anything enjoyable to being perpetually wary of avoiding custodial responsibilities.
Wouldn't the cleanup effort technically be building?
By annoying diversion I mean specifically that the cleanup effort draws players away from actually engaging in combat, mining, exploring, building, slaying dragons, etc. And because of their prevalence, I just don't think there's anything enjoyable to being perpetually wary of avoiding custodial responsibilities.
So it's not that it's an annoying diversion. It's that it causes you to have to rebuild things that are damaged, and are constant enough that this is a risk you're always wary of, in ways that endermen and ghasts don't match. And rebuilding annoys you because you feel no need to do anything different when you remake something. Does that about sum it up?
I'm not gonna even bother reading all that mumbo jumbo.. but personally I didn't hear anything about armor getting nerfed. Is this in 1.9? I really need to pay more attention to the updates..
I'm not gonna even bother reading all that mumbo jumbo.. but personally I didn't hear anything about armor getting nerfed. Is this in 1.9? I really need to pay more attention to the updates..
Amen..
Yep, armor only provided 3.33% protection per point, and there are very basic armor penetration mechanics that I think might have been removed (they basically amounted to "deal more damage to ignore armor", i.e. deal more damage in one hit to boost that damage even higher, hence why creepers managed to be fairly devastating with point blank hits in the snapshots).
As for creepers: they do have some really annoying mechanics but overall I think they're not that bad of an addition and only really need a few fixes to make them better.
They're good in that they require a vastly different skillset to counter in comparison to most other mobs; while the others will kindly alert you to your presence so you can beat them with a sword and won't be too devastating if you let them sneak up on you, creepers require you to maintain a constant awareness so they can't oneshot you (but are the weakest mob common mob if you know that the WASD keys exist if you catch them). They're also a good bit more unique than zombies, skeletons, etc. even if they are the byproduct of a badly-modeled pig.
The problem I have with them is that they're typically going to kill you in areas around your house, where killing the player doesn't hinder them notably. They'll just walk back, grab their stuff, and be left with a disorganized inventory and a hole in the ground (plus lost EXP which only matters in the endgame). They don't even have the courtesy to drop enough dirt to fill the hole back up. While a sneak attack in a place far away from the safety of a player's house is threatening, this happens less often as players will typically be expecting danger (and therefore creepers), they'll typically just end up annoying the crap out of people next to their house.
Fixing this should be fairly simple; if a creeper's damage to a player would exceed 19, they'll only deal 19 damage (thus sparing fully-healed players) but will inflict a variety of nasty potion effects like slowness, weakness, mining fatigue, and on Normal and Hard a new effect that greatly reduces the speed of health regeneration. In a place where a player really has no business dying, they'll just stumble back to their house (or not bother) and be good to go, but otherwise the player will have a chance to survive but will have to basically outlast the negative effects, rewarding a player for skillful play if they happened to be able to survive playing like that but simply dropped their awareness at the wrong moment. Additionally their explosions shouldn't have a chance to outright destroy dirt blocks; instead, they will be broken as expected but will always drop a dirt block to refill the hole without worry
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Did something happen to you in your childhood to give you this unreasonable fear of rutabaga?
Yep, armor only provided 3.33% protection per point, and there are very basic armor penetration mechanics that I think might have been removed (they basically amounted to "deal more damage to ignore armor", i.e. deal more damage in one hit to boost that damage even higher, hence why creepers managed to be fairly devastating with point blank hits in the snapshots).
Sadly, nerfing armor only serves to make the creeper even more binary.
Overall, however, I do like the nerf. Mobs in general are are a much more fearsome element in the game, making one have to think twice about their worldly excursions, be mindful of their surroundings. I do think their durability could be improved a bit. Diamond seems to get eaten up very quickly.
As for creepers: they do have some really annoying mechanics but overall I think they're not that bad of an addition and only really need a few fixes to make them better.
They're good in that they require a vastly different skillset to counter in comparison to most other mobs; while the others will kindly alert you to your presence so you can beat them with a sword and won't be too devastating if you let them sneak up on you, creepers require you to maintain a constant awareness so they can't oneshot you (but are the weakest mob common mob if you know that the WASD keys exist if you catch them). They're also a good bit more unique than zombies, skeletons, etc. even if they are the byproduct of a badly-modeled pig.
Actually, I'd say zombies are the weakest common mob. They don't do nearly the same amount of damage as a creeper and also require you to be within arms length. As for unique, it depends on what you mean by "unique". Skeletons fight in a much different way than any of the other mobs. Creepers' basic mechanics of approaching a player and inflicting damage, which is literally the only mechanics they possess, are pretty common.
The problem I have with them is that they're typically going to kill you in areas around your house, where killing the player doesn't hinder them notably. They'll just walk back, grab their stuff, and be left with a disorganized inventory and a hole in the ground (plus lost EXP which only matters in the endgame). They don't even have the courtesy to drop enough dirt to fill the hole back up. While a sneak attack in a place far away from the safety of a player's house is threatening, this happens less often as players will typically be expecting danger (and therefore creepers), they'll typically just end up annoying the crap out of people next to their house.
Another example of the dreadfully banal maintenance responsibilities creepers compound for players. Not only is a player's gametime eaten up by having to deal with cleaning up after creeper damage, but that time can be multiplied profoundly if they are short the necessary materials to rebuild. Travel time, crafting time, etc., all for simple maintenance. Like I've said before, there's a reason video games don't make you mow the lawn. Maintenance simply does not belong in a video game.
Fixing this should be fairly simple; if a creeper's damage to a player would exceed 19, they'll only deal 19 damage (thus sparing fully-healed players) but will inflict a variety of nasty potion effects like slowness, weakness, mining fatigue, and on Normal and Hard a new effect that greatly reduces the speed of health regeneration. In a place where a player really has no business dying, they'll just stumble back to their house (or not bother) and be good to go, but otherwise the player will have a chance to survive but will have to basically outlast the negative effects, rewarding a player for skillful play if they happened to be able to survive playing like that but simply dropped their awareness at the wrong moment. Additionally their explosions shouldn't have a chance to outright destroy dirt blocks; instead, they will be broken as expected but will always drop a dirt block to refill the hole without worry
I can't help but feel that this would only make what is a fundamentally flawed mob only slightly less annoying. Because creepers are designed to be undetectable, and to inflict all their damage in an instant and disappear, they are a fundamentally binary component to the game. If a player doesn't notice a creeper approaching (which, let's be honest, is how players are typically killed by them), they explode without any kind of player interaction can really occuring. Which is to say that the typical creeper experience occurs without any meaningful interaction from the player, leaving a player with nothing more than busywork.
To put my point of view simply, it's hard for me to imagine what it is, beyond sentimentality, that people like about the role of creepers in Minecraft over any other mob. Other mobs kill you, punish you for not paying attention. Other mobs can spring out at you and scare you. The only truly distinguishing dynamic creepers contribute to the game is that they damage your world. And I think most people are too blinded by mascot fandom to realize that having to spend time cleaning up a mess is really not something that can rightly be called "gameplay", let alone all that interesting of a contribution to begin with.
Actually, I'd say zombies are the weakest common mob. They don't do nearly the same amount of damage as a creeper and also require you to be within arms length. As for unique, it depends on what you mean by "unique". Skeletons fight in a much different way than any of the other mobs. Creepers' basic mechanics of approaching a player and inflicting damage, which is literally the only mechanics they possess, are pretty common.
Nah, I'd say Spiders are the weakest, since they have less health than the zombie, can't fit into 1-block-wide passages, and have a nasty habit of climbing up walls and dropping off of them, inflicting damage to themselves.
Their speed doesn't count for much, really.
Sadly, nerfing armor only serves to make the creeper even more binary.
Overall, however, I do like the nerf. Mobs in general are are a much more fearsome element in the game, making one have to think twice about their worldly excursions, be mindful of their surroundings. I do think their durability could be improved a bit. Diamond seems to get eaten up very quickly.
My thoughts are pretty much the same: overall good but negative for creepers.
Actually, I'd say zombies are the weakest common mob. They don't do nearly the same amount of damage as a creeper and also require you to be within arms length. As for unique, it depends on what you mean by "unique". Skeletons fight in a much different way than any of the other mobs. Creepers' basic mechanics of approaching a player and inflicting damage, which is literally the only mechanics they possess, are pretty common.
I might just be used to pre-1.9 where you can spam creepers to death before they explode with an iron or better sword (in which case they're the easiest, since you can get too close to a zombie and take damage while a creeper has no damage radius; same for a spider except with crappier damage). When I do fight them normally I tend to either take no damage whatsoever or take so little damage that it doesn't show up on my health bar (even unarmored...?) so it might just be my playstyle. I haven't had trouble with any mobs post-1.9 anyway, and while the only mob I have died to in the snapshots to was a creeper it was basically a best-case scenario for said creeper (I was in a pitch-black cave checking my inventory and missed the ESC key :P).
There are easier mobs IMO (silverfish, slimes, magma cubes, etc.) but of the common mobs creepers don't seem to be very difficult at all head-on.
Another example of the dreadfully banal maintenance responsibilities creepers compound for players. Not only is a player's gametime eaten up by having to deal with cleaning up after creeper damage, but that time can be multiplied profoundly if they are short the necessary materials to rebuild. Travel time, crafting time, etc., all for simple maintenance. Like I've said before, there's a reason video games don't make you mow the lawn. Maintenance simply does not belong in a video game.
I can't help but feel that this would only make what is a fundamentally flawed mob only slightly less annoying. Because creepers are designed to be undetectable, and to inflict all their damage in an instant and disappear, they are a fundamentally binary component to the game. If a player doesn't notice a creeper approaching (which, let's be honest, is how players are typically killed by them), they explode without any kind of player interaction can really occuring. Which is to say that the typical creeper experience occurs without any meaningful interaction from the player, leaving a player with nothing more than busywork.
I agree, but the uproar from removing or overhauling creepers would be immense. It's the best we can do without causing something far greater than the whole rose flame war.
To put my point of view simply, it's hard for me to imagine what it is, beyond sentimentality, that people like about the role of creepers in Minecraft over any other mob. Other mobs kill you, punish you for not paying attention. Other mobs can spring out at you and scare you. The only truly distinguishing dynamic creepers contribute to the game is that they damage your world. And I think most people are too blinded by mascot fandom to realize that having to spend time cleaning up a mess is really not something that can rightly be called "gameplay", let alone all that interesting of a contribution to begin with.
I do see your points here against creepers, but other mobs are crap at ambushing you. Their damage is simply too low to do anything meaningful; they need to rely on pushing you into something dangerous in order to successfully ambush someone. They can punish you for not paying attention but the game is so easy that creepers are the only ones that can do it to anyone that isn't AFK, already nearly dead, and/or very badly equipped (and foolish/damaged enough to not run away). Creepers do contribute to the "ambushing" mechanic if only because, while the others can do it, they're woefully ineffective at it.
Unfortunately a modicum of awareness renders mostly ineffective, and they create messes even when they don't kill you (which is fairly often from my experience). If they created a more reliable threat I might be able to get behind their current incarnation, but they almost never do anything to meaningfully hinder my progress. As you say, they just give me chores.
I don't think griefing mobs are a bad concept, if they're designed well (i.e. can't grief on easy, can grief effectively if left unattended, have countermeasures and can be prevented from griefing entirely lategame). Creepers aren't really griefing mobs at all, though, that's more or less a byproduct of their mediocre stealth capabilities (which only really amount to "deal lots of damage in one attack"). In which case they'd hurt the game a fair bit less if their explosions simply didn't destroy blocks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Did something happen to you in your childhood to give you this unreasonable fear of rutabaga?
They contribute just as much as creepers do. If you believe otherwise, explain to me how these meaningfully contribute to gameplay in a way that creepers do not. Don't just unreasoningly dismiss it. There's no point in discussing things when you just "pfft" at the other person.
These things are either the same, or they are different. If they are of the same value as creepers, fine. If they are not, explain why they are different. There isn't a wrong answer here, only answers that contribute to understanding.
Repeating yourself doesn't really do anything. It's not irrelevant since it helps me understand what you're saying better using reference points we can both identify.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
This is true, but sometimes things are so obvious that it doesn't seem necessary. For instance, does one really have to explain how lava contributes to gameplay dynamic? Or fall damage? Really, I have to explain how fall damage contributes to gameplay dynamic? Pardon me, but pfft.
And even if they didn't contribute to gameplay dynamic, that doesn't change any of my points about creepers.
I'm comfortable disagreeing with popular opinion.
I'm asking what the difference is, so I know why creepers are bad. I know they're not the same thing. That's why I'm asking you to tell me what the difference is, because in terms of "annoying diversions," they all equate the same to me. If you specifically want to limit it to mobs, then tell me about the difference between creepers and Endermen and ghasts.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
By annoying diversion I mean specifically that the cleanup effort draws players away from actually engaging in combat, mining, exploring, building, slaying dragons, etc. And because of their prevalence, I just don't think there's anything enjoyable to being perpetually wary of avoiding custodial responsibilities.
Wouldn't the cleanup effort technically be building?
Technically it would be "rebuilding", which can be distinguished from "building" by being a tedious pain in the ass unrelated to the creative process.
Only because you're not getting creative with it.
That's the funny thing about rebuilding something you've already made. You've already made it.
Patching it back together is just maintenance.
So it's not that it's an annoying diversion. It's that it causes you to have to rebuild things that are damaged, and are constant enough that this is a risk you're always wary of, in ways that endermen and ghasts don't match. And rebuilding annoys you because you feel no need to do anything different when you remake something. Does that about sum it up?
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
I'm not gonna even bother reading all that mumbo jumbo.. but personally I didn't hear anything about armor getting nerfed. Is this in 1.9? I really need to pay more attention to the updates..
Amen..
Yep, armor only provided 3.33% protection per point, and there are very basic armor penetration mechanics that I think might have been removed (they basically amounted to "deal more damage to ignore armor", i.e. deal more damage in one hit to boost that damage even higher, hence why creepers managed to be fairly devastating with point blank hits in the snapshots).
As for creepers: they do have some really annoying mechanics but overall I think they're not that bad of an addition and only really need a few fixes to make them better.
They're good in that they require a vastly different skillset to counter in comparison to most other mobs; while the others will kindly alert you to your presence so you can beat them with a sword and won't be too devastating if you let them sneak up on you, creepers require you to maintain a constant awareness so they can't oneshot you (but are the weakest mob common mob if you know that the WASD keys exist if you catch them). They're also a good bit more unique than zombies, skeletons, etc. even if they are the byproduct of a badly-modeled pig.
The problem I have with them is that they're typically going to kill you in areas around your house, where killing the player doesn't hinder them notably. They'll just walk back, grab their stuff, and be left with a disorganized inventory and a hole in the ground (plus lost EXP which only matters in the endgame). They don't even have the courtesy to drop enough dirt to fill the hole back up. While a sneak attack in a place far away from the safety of a player's house is threatening, this happens less often as players will typically be expecting danger (and therefore creepers), they'll typically just end up annoying the crap out of people next to their house.
Fixing this should be fairly simple; if a creeper's damage to a player would exceed 19, they'll only deal 19 damage (thus sparing fully-healed players) but will inflict a variety of nasty potion effects like slowness, weakness, mining fatigue, and on Normal and Hard a new effect that greatly reduces the speed of health regeneration. In a place where a player really has no business dying, they'll just stumble back to their house (or not bother) and be good to go, but otherwise the player will have a chance to survive but will have to basically outlast the negative effects, rewarding a player for skillful play if they happened to be able to survive playing like that but simply dropped their awareness at the wrong moment. Additionally their explosions shouldn't have a chance to outright destroy dirt blocks; instead, they will be broken as expected but will always drop a dirt block to refill the hole without worry
Sadly, nerfing armor only serves to make the creeper even more binary.
Overall, however, I do like the nerf. Mobs in general are are a much more fearsome element in the game, making one have to think twice about their worldly excursions, be mindful of their surroundings. I do think their durability could be improved a bit. Diamond seems to get eaten up very quickly.
Actually, I'd say zombies are the weakest common mob. They don't do nearly the same amount of damage as a creeper and also require you to be within arms length. As for unique, it depends on what you mean by "unique". Skeletons fight in a much different way than any of the other mobs. Creepers' basic mechanics of approaching a player and inflicting damage, which is literally the only mechanics they possess, are pretty common.
Another example of the dreadfully banal maintenance responsibilities creepers compound for players. Not only is a player's gametime eaten up by having to deal with cleaning up after creeper damage, but that time can be multiplied profoundly if they are short the necessary materials to rebuild. Travel time, crafting time, etc., all for simple maintenance. Like I've said before, there's a reason video games don't make you mow the lawn. Maintenance simply does not belong in a video game.
I can't help but feel that this would only make what is a fundamentally flawed mob only slightly less annoying. Because creepers are designed to be undetectable, and to inflict all their damage in an instant and disappear, they are a fundamentally binary component to the game. If a player doesn't notice a creeper approaching (which, let's be honest, is how players are typically killed by them), they explode without any kind of player interaction can really occuring. Which is to say that the typical creeper experience occurs without any meaningful interaction from the player, leaving a player with nothing more than busywork.
To put my point of view simply, it's hard for me to imagine what it is, beyond sentimentality, that people like about the role of creepers in Minecraft over any other mob. Other mobs kill you, punish you for not paying attention. Other mobs can spring out at you and scare you. The only truly distinguishing dynamic creepers contribute to the game is that they damage your world. And I think most people are too blinded by mascot fandom to realize that having to spend time cleaning up a mess is really not something that can rightly be called "gameplay", let alone all that interesting of a contribution to begin with.
Nah, I'd say Spiders are the weakest, since they have less health than the zombie, can't fit into 1-block-wide passages, and have a nasty habit of climbing up walls and dropping off of them, inflicting damage to themselves.
Their speed doesn't count for much, really.
My thoughts are pretty much the same: overall good but negative for creepers.
I might just be used to pre-1.9 where you can spam creepers to death before they explode with an iron or better sword (in which case they're the easiest, since you can get too close to a zombie and take damage while a creeper has no damage radius; same for a spider except with crappier damage). When I do fight them normally I tend to either take no damage whatsoever or take so little damage that it doesn't show up on my health bar (even unarmored...?) so it might just be my playstyle. I haven't had trouble with any mobs post-1.9 anyway, and while the only mob I have died to in the snapshots to was a creeper it was basically a best-case scenario for said creeper (I was in a pitch-black cave checking my inventory and missed the ESC key :P).
There are easier mobs IMO (silverfish, slimes, magma cubes, etc.) but of the common mobs creepers don't seem to be very difficult at all head-on.
I agree, but the uproar from removing or overhauling creepers would be immense. It's the best we can do without causing something far greater than the whole rose flame war.
I do see your points here against creepers, but other mobs are crap at ambushing you. Their damage is simply too low to do anything meaningful; they need to rely on pushing you into something dangerous in order to successfully ambush someone. They can punish you for not paying attention but the game is so easy that creepers are the only ones that can do it to anyone that isn't AFK, already nearly dead, and/or very badly equipped (and foolish/damaged enough to not run away). Creepers do contribute to the "ambushing" mechanic if only because, while the others can do it, they're woefully ineffective at it.
Unfortunately a modicum of awareness renders mostly ineffective, and they create messes even when they don't kill you (which is fairly often from my experience). If they created a more reliable threat I might be able to get behind their current incarnation, but they almost never do anything to meaningfully hinder my progress. As you say, they just give me chores.
I don't think griefing mobs are a bad concept, if they're designed well (i.e. can't grief on easy, can grief effectively if left unattended, have countermeasures and can be prevented from griefing entirely lategame). Creepers aren't really griefing mobs at all, though, that's more or less a byproduct of their mediocre stealth capabilities (which only really amount to "deal lots of damage in one attack"). In which case they'd hurt the game a fair bit less if their explosions simply didn't destroy blocks.
I am excited to hear of these lethal creepers. Mojang is making the game more interesting for players past the iron stage. I love it!