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I have never really played (never made a Survival world) in any newer version, only playing them to check something out, most recently 1.12 to verify a claim that caves had been changed (still the same since 1.7, which in turn decreased the size of cave systems from 1.6). The only other version that I've played on is 1.5, as 1.5.1-1.5.2, which is very similar to 1.6 as far as my playstyle is concerned.

When I went caving recently, I couldn't help but feel it had changed. I'm finding cave systems on top of other cave systems, styles of cave generation I've never seen in my many hours of caving in 1.7 through 1.9. I haven't caved all that much in 1.10 or 1.11 (they weren't even out very long before the next version came out!) so it's possible the change occurred earlier. Also possible is that I found a rare cave system. But that seems unlikely as the changes seem to persist out past that cave system and into other areas.

At one point I found a very large cavern, larger even than those shown in this old forum thread:

Here's the cave after using torches to light it up:

It may not excite you, MasterCaver, but it's really a step apart from what I'm used to and I think there must have been some stealth change to cave generation at some point recently.

There is an abandoned mineshaft running through this area, but rather than cut through everything else, it seems these caves have cut right through it. I've found at least 3 small pieces of it completely cut off from the rest of the structure. One piece is isolated from the rest by a few chunks. I've checked in spectator mode and verified that I'm not missing any of the structure. After exploring the entire bit that survived terrain generation, I have to say it is not even half the size of the abandoned mineshafts I'm used to.

All of these caves and mineshaft parts cut through a stronghold. Now I'm used to strongholds meshing oddly with caves and ravines, but I haven't experienced cave systems spawning right on top of each other very often, abandoned mineshafts are always large and sprawling, and they rarely get chopped off by cave systems. The large cavern has, I count, twenty different cave units protruding into it, five of which are coming through the ceiling. Another five come into an upper level which initially made a seven block high cliff, preventing access without breaking or placing blocks.

It took me over an hour just to light up the cavern, I spent more than half of the time fighting off swarms of mobs coming at me from all directions, including right out of the ceiling. It was a gauntlet, at times it was difficult to advance faster than the mobs pushed me back. In that cavern alone, I collected more than a full stack of most basic mob loot items. I didn't manage to shut off the siege until over half of the cave system had been explored. The whole bit was actually fairly small, with the cavern taking up a significant fraction of it.

Here's a video which shows the cavern and cave system plus some of the weird terrain around the cave and stronghold from spectator mode:

It may not excite you, MasterCaver, but it's really a step apart from what I'm used to and I think there must have been some stealth change to cave generation at some point recently.

Every time somebody says this I compare the latest version to 1.7.2 and I see the exact same caves - absolutely no changes whatsoever (not counting cave openings in deserts and mesas, which is simply due to adding more blocks that they can cut through) - which I've also confirmed by looking at the code (incidentally, my first post on these forums was to give proof that 1.7 changed cave generation):

On the left is 1.6.4, center is 1.7.2 and right is 1.12.1; the latter two are identical save for minor features like springs (due to changes to ore generation and some other features, which affect the RNG state downstream. In fact, you can see some of the same water and lava lakes in all three versions, proving that they are all of the same seed, "-123775873255737467", the seed for my first world).

Here is another comparison between 1.6.4 and a slightly older version showing that several caves generated exactly the same (the RNG happened to choose the same parameters for these caves; after all, all they changed was the size and chance of cave systems):

In fact, the only real difference in the code between 1.6.4 and the latest version is a change to two hard-coded values which determine the size and chance of cave systems - editing them back to 1.6.4 perfectly replicates that version's cave generation (ravines are a bit different due to a change in a value from 128 to 256 but this only affects their curvature; their position, altitude, starting direction, and size are otherwise the same).

Even mineshafts are still the same; the only change in 1.7 is that they are 40% as common and any mineshaft (outside of mesa biomes in 1.10+, and that may only affect their altitude) that exists in 1.7+ exists in the same configuration as in 1.6.4, as seen in the seed "-77415187845230931" at around 320, -175:

1.6.4:

1.12:

The largest possible single cave (not cave system!) in any version is 112 blocks long with the main cave extending for 83 blocks before branching into two branches at right angles which each continue for the remainder of the length; branches are always 4-5 blocks wide, and up to 27 blocks wide (assuming the cave branches at 50% or more of its full length), and the overall number of caves did not decrease that much in 1.7+; in fact, since cave systems are much less dense and ravines (with about 1/3 as much air volume overall as caves) were unchanged the decrease in underground air volume is even less. Here is a chart of the width distribution of caves in 1.6.4; 1.7+ is the same except that caves are 77% as common (multiply chunks by 1.3; the table gives figures for each map zoom level plus 3x3 level 3 maps, representing the maximum distance I explore in most of my worlds):

(note that the Wiki claims that circular rooms can get much larger but they are incorrect; they also claim that ravines only reach up to 7 blocks wide)

It took me over an hour just to light up the cavern

An hour? I consider that to be a small cave system; the average cave system (yes, average) in 1.6.4 takes more than a full 3-4 hour play session to explore with more than 3,000 ores mined. The largest? This is the largest cave system I found in my first world - far from the largest that I've seen in any world (and arguably not the largest in this world depending on how you define a cave system, such as whether a large network of highly interconnected cave systems (but still separated enough to identify them) is a single cave system):

Likewise, a large mineshaft complex? I recently mined more than 16,000 resources from one in my first world, including more than 1,000 rails in two sessions each:

These were from the two longest play sessions; note that 14 days passed between the first and second screenshots - or 4.66 hours spent on just the second session:

Check out all of this loot! That's more than 12,000 mineral resources and more than 16,000 overall (the blocks in the lower-left are mod blocks which are equivalent to 4 cobwebs and 9 rails each. Note that I only took cobwebs from around cave spider spawners):

And that's not the largest one either; in the same world I found one that was twice as large, combined with a huge cave system.

Here are screenshots I took using MCEdit, plus some other caves, to try to show just how vast caves are in 1.6.4 (which again means cave systems, not individual caves); what you see is only a tiny part of the world:

This what lies under spawn:

A massive cave system around 1850, 500:

An even larger cave system lies a few hundred blocks to the east:

A massive complex of caves and mineshafts around -50, -1700 (the largest one in this world, with both the largest single cave system and largest concentration of mineshafts):

Not the largest cave system I've ever found though; this monstrosity can be found in the seed "-7501191248410737040" at around -375, 200 and has a volume of more than half a million air blocks, with more than 500 individual tunnels and 100 circular rooms:

From an analysis of the caves within the area; note that the largest possible single cave system in 1.7+ has an initial size of only 14, and generates only once every 23,625 chunks on average, compared to a mere 153 chunks for a cave system of the same size or larger in 1.6.4, which can have a size of up to 39 - you'd need 26 of the largest possible cave system in 1.7+ to create this:

Size 7 cave system at -448, 112; total number of caves: 9
Size 1 cave system at -416, 112; total number of caves: 2
Size 21 cave system at -352, 112; total number of caves: 39
Size 2 cave system at -480, 128; total number of caves: 2
Size 21 cave system at -336, 144; total number of caves: 27
Size 24 cave system at -400, 160; total number of caves: 40
Size 13 cave system at -384, 160; total number of caves: 19
Size 6 cave system at -512, 176; total number of caves: 6
Size 2 cave system at -464, 176; total number of caves: 2
Size 3 cave system at -256, 176; total number of caves: 5
Size 2 cave system at -304, 192; total number of caves: 2
Size 29 cave system at -448, 208; total number of caves: 36
Size 12 cave system at -416, 208; total number of caves: 18
Size 21 cave system at -400, 208; total number of caves: 28
Size 3 cave system at -352, 208; total number of caves: 6
Size 7 cave system at -256, 208; total number of caves: 9
Size 13 cave system at -448, 224; total number of caves: 13
Size 20 cave system at -352, 224; total number of caves: 34
Size 6 cave system at -352, 240; total number of caves: 6
Size 3 cave system at -336, 240; total number of caves: 3
Size 21 cave system at -304, 240; total number of caves: 28
Size 1 cave system at -256, 240; total number of caves: 1
Size 3 cave system at -464, 256; total number of caves: 9
Size 23 cave system at -400, 256; total number of caves: 28
Size 26 cave system at -368, 256; total number of caves: 37
Size 21 cave system at -416, 272; total number of caves: 34
Size 1 cave system at -352, 272; total number of caves: 4
Size 1 cave system at -480, 288; total number of caves: 3
Size 27 cave system at -416, 288; total number of caves: 43
Size 2 cave system at -384, 288; total number of caves: 2
Size 3 cave system at -448, 320; total number of caves: 3
Size 19 cave system at -352, 320; total number of caves: 28

Initial number of caves: 364
Total number of caves: 526
Additional circular room caves: 162
Number of small caves: 511; average width is 6.11
Number of large caves: 15; average width is 13.75
Number of circular rooms: 101; average width is 10.9
Additional caves per circular room: 1.6

Average altitude: 27.89
Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 25.86
Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 18.63
Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 19.96
Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 10.07
Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 7.98
Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 6.65
Percentage of caves above layer 59: 10.84

Yet another huge complex of caves, plus a stronghold around 50, -550 (if you look closely the End portal can be seen to the left of center):

A couple huge cave systems, with the one on the right, centered at -800, -1050, being the largest and densest cave system I've found:

Some in-game screenshots:

Here is an Unmined rendering of the cave system (in a recreated world) - you can see that the center is so dense that there are no recognizable tunnels:

And that isn't even the densest cave system that I've seen - that big hole you see is not a single huge cave but so many tunnels that virtually all blocks have been erased (seed "-7978171164721551672" at 1600, 1900):

Even more caves, around -1400, -700 or so, part of a very large complex:

The complex of mineshafts from which I recently collected more than 16,000 resources, around -1900, 100:

Another huge cave system around -2300, -640, with sunlight and snow nearly reaching lava level:

An in-game screenshot before I lit it up:

And yet another huge cave system, around -1850, -500 (due to a bug in the game this cave system actually contains some of the exact same caves as the one at 1850, 500, unnoticeable due to all the other caves):

Also, these renderings I often post of my world?

To help put the scale of those into perspective here is how large the world is - more than 6000x6000 blocks, nearly 90,000 chunks, and with more than half a million torches (all placed by me except for a handful in villages; mineshafts were modified to remove them so they do not render on the cave view, which only renders caves with torches in them) and enough obsidian (mostly from me pouring water on lava) to cover more than 3,100 chunks (about 892x892 blocks):

There is an abandoned mineshaft running through this area, but rather than cut through everything else, it seems these caves have cut right through it.

That is due to MC-105035; the changes made to mineshafts in 1.10 so they do not generate above the surface in mesas often affects mineshafts even when deep underground because they apparently added the code used for all mineshafts, not just ones in mesas, and it is buggy, this also ruins Superflat worlds with floating mineshafts (MC-103559); caves do not and never have been able to cut apart any kind of structure since they generate in an entirely separate stage of terrain generation (the cave generator operates on the raw data produced by the terrain generator before it is used to initialize a chunk with all other features being added when a chunk is populated; in my mods I even let caves cut through all blocks except for water and bedrock with no issues. Strongholds and dungeons fake this by not overwriting air where there should be walls, unless it is the portal room, and anything inside (such as chests and doors) generates unless there is water or lava in the way).

An hour? I consider that to be a small cave system;

I said it was a small system, it's the cavern itself that is large. It took me over an hour just to light that cavern that I showed in the picture, not counting the time spent when I left the cave system to restock on wood and food.

I can accept that the 1.12 terrain generation isn't changed, but I am still excited about what I found because apparently in the current terrain generator it is very strange and rare.

P.S.: Do you have any videos of you doing caving? I sent you a PM asking this but I don't think you saw it.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

P.S.: Do you have any videos of you doing caving? I sent you a PM asking this but I don't think you saw it.

I've never made any videos (for any reason); the closest that I've come to fully documenting a play session is taking a lot of screenshots; I took a lot more than usual when playing my most recent modded world (more than 1,000 total); for example, in this post and the following posts I document exploring one of my mod's "giant cave regions" (it took more than 5,500 torches to light it up over 5 play sessions; despite its size I collected less resources in more time than I did from a complex of 9 mineshafts and associated caves and ravines in vanilla since it is the surface area, not volume, that matters most).

I started playing in beta 1.2 (before beds) and I always liked spelunking because it's like a neverending adventure with proper challenges, goals and prizes, while the rest of the game doesn't offer much in that regard.

To make it work I had to tweak a few things, especially using a testure pack to make the dark actually dark (and spooky), activating Optifine's dynamic lights to make the atmosphere more realistic and for being able to throw torches in a pit to see how deep it is, disabling ravine generation (which are just a mix of annyoing + free loot) and making all ores diamond-rare and spawning almost at any height (with moderately larger veins), so that strip-mining is no longer a (super boring) option.

My game is hunting for dungeons (which I made as common as they used to be back in beta) and then using them as the basis for my own mega-dungeon, which is the only thing I build because houses literally serve no purpose a hole in the ground can't. Basically I search for a cave entrance on the surface then start exploring it until I'm sure everything as been visited, marking any dungeon I find.

Well, I started exploring this cave (1.11.2) and after maybe 10 hours I finally finished exploring it all when I saw this crack in a cave with a mineshaft on the other side. Now I know this will take much longer.

I'm not saying 1.7+ has as many caves as 1.6, there are multiple proofs against this. I'm just saying more caves than this would take away the sense of completion that I get when I finally finish exploring a large cave complex, eventually leading to frustration.

To each his own, I guess. BTW this thread proves TheMasterCaver deserves his nickname!

I'm not saying 1.7+ has as many caves as 1.6, there are multiple proofs against this. I'm just saying more caves than this would take away the sense of completion that I get when I finally finish exploring a large cave complex, eventually leading to frustration.
To each his own, I guess. BTW this thread proves TheMasterCaver deserves his nickname!

I agree. I probably cave better than anyone I know except for TheMasterCaver. But I like to finish a cave system and move on to the next. It bugs me when one seems to stretch on endlessly, or when there's so many caves running into each other that it becomes really difficult to spawnproof because there's a constant mob siege coming from all directions and there's 5+ corners to go around at one nexus plus the floor is out on half of it. I don't mind stumbling upon that occasionally but what I hated most about caves in 1.7+ is that that is commonplace sometimes. It seems to vary a lot actually, but in a given region you might get all nice neat individual caves, and in another region you just get swiss cheese ground everywhere. For quite some time I had thought there were subtle variations in each version of the game onward, because each new world seemed to generate a different style of caves. My 1.7 world's caves were nice and simple. My 1.8 world had swiss cheese everywhere and ravines so common you couldn't ride a horse more than 5 seconds without falling into one you couldn't see in time. My 1.9 world was more like my 1.7 world, until I went 10k by 16k blocks from the origin and found a monster cavern the likes of which I had previously thought couldn't possibly generate in the 1.7 terrain generator, plus swiss cheese caves a lot like my 1.8 world but with their own distinct flavor. I think you get a pattern that propagates itself over a large area and all the caves in your region have various similarities.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

I don't mind stumbling upon that occasionally but what I hated most about caves in 1.7+ is that that is commonplace sometimes. It seems to vary a lot actually, but in a given region you might get all nice neat individual caves, and in another region you just get swiss cheese ground everywhere. For quite some time I had thought there were subtle variations in each version of the game onward, because each new world seemed to generate a different style of caves. My 1.7 world's caves were nice and simple. My 1.8 world had swiss cheese everywhere and ravines so common you couldn't ride a horse more than 5 seconds without falling into one you couldn't see in time. My 1.9 world was more like my 1.7 world, until I went 10k by 16k blocks from the origin and found a monster cavern the likes of which I had previously thought couldn't possibly generate in the 1.7 terrain generator, plus swiss cheese caves a lot like my 1.8 world but with their own distinct flavor. I think you get a pattern that propagates itself over a large area and all the caves in your region have various similarities.

Did you mean to say 1.6.4 instead of 1.7+? Because the variation you describe sounds a lot more like 1.6.4 cave generation, which has much greater regional variation; for example, here are various regions from my first world:

The area around spawn (near the center you can see where I store all the resources I collect):

This is just to the southwest of the area shown above, with very few caves:

This is the most extreme region as far as cave density goes:

An area with more average cave density:

Another area with relatively sparse caves:

Another one of the more extreme areas, but also with a large cave-free region:

Also, I've analyzed the variations in cave density before as shown in this series of charts (only one seed was used but that doesn't matter in most cases):

The differences in the charts above can be better seen in this comparison of caves between 1.6.4 and 1.7+ (each area is 4000x4000 blocks):

Did you mean to say 1.6.4 instead of 1.7+? Because the variation you describe sounds a lot more like 1.6.4 cave generation,

No. I've seen your charts and I understand the differences very well. What I'm saying is that I want less swiss cheese caves than the new terrain generator gives. I like variation over large distances, but I don't like it when caves going through caves is common even just in one region. I'd like variations in cave and cavern width and size, and variation in the size of a cave system, but I want individual cave channels to avoid all diving into each other at one point and completely destroying the terrain right there.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

but I want individual cave channels to avoid all diving into each other at one point and completely destroying the terrain right there.

That makes it sound like you just want caves to be some isolated tunnels, not real cave systems with large random caverns created by the intersection of many individual tunnels - which is why I do not like 1.7+ cave generation; if you think that a few caves intersecting is bad, well, it isn't uncommon to find dozens or more in 1.6.4, where a single chunk can easily have 20-40 caves; for example, here is a list of every cave system within the spawn chunks in my world (as shown on this map), with the largest cave system having 41 caves, with another cave system with 26 caves right next to it:

Seed is -123775873255737467
Center is -96, 224 (chunk -6, 14)
Radius is 12 chunks (square)
Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 12 cave system at -112, 32; total number of caves: 15
Size 3 cave system at -32, 32; total number of caves: 4
Size 1 cave system at 32, 32; total number of caves: 1
Size 4 cave system at -240, 48; total number of caves: 4
Size 1 cave system at -160, 48; total number of caves: 1
Size 9 cave system at -208, 64; total number of caves: 15
Size 1 cave system at -272, 80; total number of caves: 1
Size 9 cave system at -112, 96; total number of caves: 15
Size 3 cave system at -240, 112; total number of caves: 3
Size 4 cave system at -176, 112; total number of caves: 4
Size 29 cave system at -16, 112; total number of caves: 41
Size 1 cave system at 16, 112; total number of caves: 1
Size 14 cave system at -16, 128; total number of caves: 26
Size 4 cave system at 16, 128; total number of caves: 7
Size 4 cave system at -80, 160; total number of caves: 4
Size 2 cave system at 80, 160; total number of caves: 2
Size 8 cave system at -160, 192; total number of caves: 13
Size 1 cave system at -64, 192; total number of caves: 1
Size 4 cave system at -240, 208; total number of caves: 4
Size 12 cave system at -112, 208; total number of caves: 16
Size 4 cave system at 80, 208; total number of caves: 7
Size 3 cave system at -144, 224; total number of caves: 3
Size 6 cave system at 0, 224; total number of caves: 7
Size 14 cave system at 32, 240; total number of caves: 20
Size 3 cave system at -176, 256; total number of caves: 3
Size 20 cave system at -240, 272; total number of caves: 30
Size 16 cave system at -32, 272; total number of caves: 27
Size 4 cave system at -256, 288; total number of caves: 4
Size 8 cave system at -96, 304; total number of caves: 8
Size 24 cave system at -240, 336; total number of caves: 31
Size 1 cave system at -192, 352; total number of caves: 1
Size 13 cave system at -240, 400; total number of caves: 19
Size 15 cave system at -192, 400; total number of caves: 22
Size 17 cave system at -128, 400; total number of caves: 23
Size 14 cave system at -64, 400; total number of caves: 18
Size 6 cave system at 16, 416; total number of caves: 15

Number of cave systems: 36
Initial number of caves: 294
Total number of caves: 416
Additional circular room caves: 122
Number of small caves: 405; average width is 6.03
Number of large caves: 11; average width is 12.28
Number of circular rooms: 74; average width is 10.85
Additional caves per circular room: 1.65
Average caves per chunk: 0.6656

Average altitude: 31.68
Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 26.20
Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 17.79
Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 14.18
Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 10.58
Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 7.69
Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 5.29
Percentage of caves above layer 59: 18.27

Here is the same area in 1.7+; the largest single cave system had 16 caves, which is also the most within a 3x3 chunk area around the three largest single cave systems; the average size of a cave system was 4.41 caves compared to 11.56 in 1.6.4:

Seed is -123775873255737467
Center is -96, 224 (chunk -6, 14)
Radius is 12 chunks (square)
Version used is >= 1.7.2

Size 1 cave system at 16, 32; total number of caves: 1
Size 1 cave system at -288, 48; total number of caves: 1
Size 7 cave system at -144, 64; total number of caves: 7
Size 1 cave system at 80, 64; total number of caves: 1
Size 5 cave system at -288, 96; total number of caves: 9
Size 2 cave system at -176, 112; total number of caves: 2
Size 9 cave system at 0, 112; total number of caves: 15
Size 1 cave system at -256, 128; total number of caves: 3
Size 1 cave system at 0, 128; total number of caves: 1
Size 1 cave system at 96, 144; total number of caves: 1
Size 4 cave system at -224, 160; total number of caves: 5
Size 3 cave system at -176, 160; total number of caves: 9
Size 4 cave system at -80, 160; total number of caves: 4
Size 2 cave system at -48, 160; total number of caves: 2
Size 3 cave system at -16, 160; total number of caves: 3
Size 3 cave system at 48, 176; total number of caves: 6
Size 1 cave system at -224, 208; total number of caves: 1
Size 6 cave system at -208, 208; total number of caves: 6
Size 1 cave system at -176, 208; total number of caves: 1
Size 7 cave system at -64, 208; total number of caves: 16
Size 1 cave system at 64, 208; total number of caves: 1
Size 1 cave system at -288, 224; total number of caves: 1
Size 2 cave system at 64, 224; total number of caves: 2
Size 2 cave system at -176, 240; total number of caves: 2
Size 3 cave system at 48, 240; total number of caves: 6
Size 5 cave system at 64, 240; total number of caves: 6
Size 5 cave system at -176, 256; total number of caves: 9
Size 1 cave system at -144, 256; total number of caves: 1
Size 3 cave system at -16, 256; total number of caves: 6
Size 2 cave system at -224, 272; total number of caves: 3
Size 1 cave system at -128, 272; total number of caves: 1
Size 1 cave system at -48, 272; total number of caves: 1
Size 4 cave system at -256, 304; total number of caves: 5
Size 3 cave system at -192, 304; total number of caves: 5
Size 8 cave system at -96, 304; total number of caves: 8
Size 2 cave system at -16, 304; total number of caves: 2
Size 1 cave system at 32, 304; total number of caves: 1
Size 3 cave system at 64, 320; total number of caves: 3
Size 4 cave system at -160, 336; total number of caves: 11
Size 1 cave system at 0, 336; total number of caves: 1
Size 4 cave system at 80, 336; total number of caves: 5
Size 2 cave system at -208, 352; total number of caves: 2
Size 2 cave system at 16, 352; total number of caves: 2
Size 4 cave system at 64, 368; total number of caves: 5
Size 5 cave system at 96, 368; total number of caves: 5
Size 3 cave system at -288, 384; total number of caves: 4
Size 10 cave system at -208, 384; total number of caves: 14
Size 6 cave system at -80, 384; total number of caves: 9
Size 2 cave system at -256, 400; total number of caves: 2
Size 1 cave system at 16, 400; total number of caves: 1
Size 3 cave system at 64, 416; total number of caves: 7

Number of cave systems: 51
Initial number of caves: 158
Total number of caves: 225
Additional circular room caves: 67
Number of small caves: 221; average width is 5.96
Number of large caves: 4; average width is 11.95
Number of circular rooms: 42; average width is 10.87
Additional caves per circular room: 1.60
Average caves per chunk: 0.36

Average altitude: 34.76
Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 18.67
Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 22.67
Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 16.00
Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 8.89
Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 5.33
Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 8.00
Percentage of caves above layer 59: 20.44

Also, this gives you some idea of how large and dense cave systems can get in 1.6.4; the second one shown contains 70 caves in a single chunk and 113 caves in two adjacent chunks; needless to say, there isn't much solid ground remaining in the lower levels (the largest possible size in 1.6.4 is 39 with as many as 156 tunnels; 1.7 is limited to 14 and 56 respectively. A cave system with an initial size of 14 or more occurs about once every 153 chunks in 1.6.4, compared to 23625 in 1.7+):

Seed is -123775873255737467
Center is -816, -1040 (chunk -51, -65)
Radius is 4 chunks (square)
Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 26 cave system at -816, -1104; total number of caves: 37
Size 3 cave system at -784, -1104; total number of caves: 3
Size 24 cave system at -832, -1072; total number of caves: 34
Size 2 cave system at -768, -1072; total number of caves: 2
Size 23 cave system at -816, -1056; total number of caves: 39
Size 20 cave system at -800, -1024; total number of caves: 31
Size 3 cave system at -784, -1024; total number of caves: 3
Size 13 cave system at -800, -992; total number of caves: 18
Size 4 cave system at -864, -976; total number of caves: 7

Number of cave systems: 9
Initial number of caves: 118
Total number of caves: 174
Additional circular room caves: 56
Number of small caves: 171; average width is 6.04
Number of large caves: 3; average width is 12.18
Number of circular rooms: 33; average width is 10.38
Additional caves per circular room: 1.70
Average caves per chunk: 2.148148

Average altitude: 31.25
Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 21.84
Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 22.99
Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 12.07
Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 10.92
Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 8.05
Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 6.90
Percentage of caves above layer 59: 17.24

Seed is -7978171164721551672
Center is 1600, 1888 (chunk 100, 118)
Radius is 4 chunks (square)
Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 17 cave system at 1536, 1872; total number of caves: 24
Size 5 cave system at 1552, 1904; total number of caves: 5
Size 30 cave system at 1584, 1904; total number of caves: 43
Size 1 cave system at 1536, 1920; total number of caves: 1
Size 39 cave system at 1584, 1920; total number of caves: 70
Size 2 cave system at 1536, 1936; total number of caves: 2
Size 1 cave system at 1568, 1936; total number of caves: 3
Size 6 cave system at 1616, 1952; total number of caves: 9
Size 5 cave system at 1632, 1952; total number of caves: 8

Number of cave systems: 9
Initial number of caves: 106
Total number of caves: 165
Additional circular room caves: 59
Number of small caves: 158; average width is 6.00
Number of large caves: 7; average width is 10.72
Number of circular rooms: 33; average width is 11.72
Additional caves per circular room: 1.79
Average caves per chunk: 2.0370371

Average altitude: 28.56
Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 22.42
Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 30.30
Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 9.09
Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 9.70
Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 9.09
Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 5.45
Percentage of caves above layer 59: 13.94

Seed is -6923329256941061233
Center is 176, 240 (chunk 11, 15)
Radius is 4 chunks (square)
Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 26 cave system at 176, 192; total number of caves: 37
Size 6 cave system at 224, 192; total number of caves: 8
Size 3 cave system at 112, 208; total number of caves: 3
Size 1 cave system at 160, 208; total number of caves: 1
Size 8 cave system at 208, 208; total number of caves: 8
Size 24 cave system at 176, 224; total number of caves: 38
Size 36 cave system at 176, 240; total number of caves: 61
Size 18 cave system at 208, 240; total number of caves: 21
Size 3 cave system at 240, 240; total number of caves: 4
Size 17 cave system at 208, 256; total number of caves: 22
Size 7 cave system at 224, 256; total number of caves: 13
Size 7 cave system at 160, 272; total number of caves: 12
Size 1 cave system at 224, 288; total number of caves: 1
Size 4 cave system at 112, 304; total number of caves: 7
Size 32 cave system at 160, 304; total number of caves: 50
Size 1 cave system at 208, 304; total number of caves: 2
Size 3 cave system at 240, 304; total number of caves: 5

Number of cave systems: 17
Initial number of caves: 197
Total number of caves: 293
Additional circular room caves: 96
Number of small caves: 282; average width is 6.12
Number of large caves: 11; average width is 11.69
Number of circular rooms: 59; average width is 11.22
Additional caves per circular room: 1.63
Average caves per chunk: 3.617284

Average altitude: 31.58
Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 20.82
Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 17.41
Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 17.75
Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 11.26
Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 10.24
Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 7.51
Percentage of caves above layer 59: 15.02

The code is actually written so that up to 4 tunnels can originate from a single point (a circular room), which is why the total number of caves shown above is often greater than the initial size; there is a 25% chance of a circular room per iteration and a 25% chance each of 1, 2, 3, or 4 tunnels leading from it (the 15 on the first line determines the size range of cave systems; 1.6.4 uses 40, and the 7 on the next line determines the chance; 1.6.4 uses 15, so cave systems are larger but less common):

protected void recursiveGenerate(World worldIn, int chunkX, int chunkZ, int p_180701_4_, int p_180701_5_, ChunkPrimer chunkPrimerIn)
{
int i = this.rand.nextInt(this.rand.nextInt(this.rand.nextInt(15) + 1) + 1);
if (this.rand.nextInt(7) != 0)
{
i = 0;
}
for (int j = 0; j < i; ++j)
{
double d0 = (double)(chunkX * 16 + this.rand.nextInt(16));
double d1 = (double)this.rand.nextInt(this.rand.nextInt(120) + 8);
double d2 = (double)(chunkZ * 16 + this.rand.nextInt(16));
int k = 1;
if (this.rand.nextInt(4) == 0)
{
this.addRoom(this.rand.nextLong(), p_180701_4_, p_180701_5_, chunkPrimerIn, d0, d1, d2);
k += this.rand.nextInt(4);
}
for (int l = 0; l < k; ++l)
{
float f = this.rand.nextFloat() * ((float)Math.PI * 2F);
float f1 = (this.rand.nextFloat() - 0.5F) * 2.0F / 8.0F;
float f2 = this.rand.nextFloat() * 2.0F + this.rand.nextFloat();
if (this.rand.nextInt(10) == 0)
{
f2 *= this.rand.nextFloat() * this.rand.nextFloat() * 3.0F + 1.0F;
}
this.addTunnel(this.rand.nextLong(), p_180701_4_, p_180701_5_, chunkPrimerIn, d0, d1, d2, f2, f, f1, 0, 0, 1.0D);
}
}
}

i'm the same as you but in 1.7.10 modded i've played newer versions but not seriously

ie. never used 1.9 combat or end changes igloos and all that stuff

i started in 1.5.2 and i still have my first world C: i like these versions

EDIT:

wow i didn't know 1.7 had smaller caves i need a mod to revert it because i've experienced it

my current world was created in 1.6 and near my base there is a ginormous cave system i haven't finished exploring but when i go to 1.7 terrain i conquer the entire system easily

there is only one 1.7 system that is big like 1.6 but it's rares

That makes it sound like you just want caves to be some isolated tunnels, not real cave systems with large random caverns created by the intersection of many individual tunnels - which is why I do not like 1.7+ cave generation; if you think that a few caves intersecting is bad, well, it isn't uncommon to find dozens or more in 1.6.4,

Yes you've explained this before, and I strongly suspect if you poll the general Minecraft playerbase you'll find that your opinion on the matter is in the extreme minority. I'm not trying to belittle your playstyle, far from it, I'm simply making the point that the average player won't enjoy being thoroughly creamed by caves that are at your difficulty level. There should be sliders in the world options that enable caves like what you want, but the default I think caves should be less common and smoother than it is at current. As for the total size of the cave system I wouldn't mind that being bigger, especially at the upper end. But I'd ask more players for opinions on that--while many players don't cave as easily as I do, they also spend a lot less time in the caves. Maybe they prefer having it be fairly challenging for those rare occasions when they finally do venture down inside.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

That makes it sound like you just want caves to be some isolated tunnels, not real cave systems with large random caverns created by the intersection of many individual tunnels

I like some isolated tunnes because if every cave was the start of a giant underground complex it would make spelunking predictable, so to speak, there won't be that sense of accomplishment in finding a "real" cave instead of a mere tunnel.

I'm not saying 1.7+ is better at that, just debating that single point.

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

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That takes some serious dedication! Lol.

Skype: Sparthia |Server IP: real-survival.netQuote from TheMasterCaver >>

I have never really played (never made a Survival world) in any newer version, only playing them to check something out, most recently 1.12 to verify a claim that caves had been changed (still the same since 1.7, which in turn decreased the size of cave systems from 1.6). The only other version that I've played on is 1.5, as 1.5.1-1.5.2, which is very similar to 1.6 as far as my playstyle is concerned.

When I went caving recently, I couldn't help but feel it had changed. I'm finding cave systems on top of other cave systems, styles of cave generation I've never seen in my many hours of caving in 1.7 through 1.9. I haven't caved all that much in 1.10 or 1.11 (they weren't even out very long before the next version came out!) so it's possible the change occurred earlier. Also possible is that I found a rare cave system. But that seems unlikely as the changes seem to persist out past that cave system and into other areas.

At one point I found a very large cavern, larger even than those shown in this old forum thread:

## Possibly... largest CAVE in MINECRAFT 1.8?

Here's the cave after using torches to light it up:

It may not excite you, MasterCaver, but it's really a step apart from what I'm used to and I think there must have been some stealth change to cave generation at some point recently.

There is an abandoned mineshaft running through this area, but rather than cut through everything else, it seems these caves have cut right through it. I've found at least 3 small pieces of it completely cut off from the rest of the structure. One piece is isolated from the rest by a few chunks. I've checked in spectator mode and verified that I'm not missing any of the structure. After exploring the entire bit that survived terrain generation, I have to say it is not even half the size of the abandoned mineshafts I'm used to.

All of these caves and mineshaft parts cut through a stronghold. Now I'm used to strongholds meshing oddly with caves and ravines, but I haven't experienced cave systems spawning right on top of each other very often, abandoned mineshafts are always large and sprawling, and they rarely get chopped off by cave systems. The large cavern has, I count, twenty different cave units protruding into it, five of which are coming through the ceiling. Another five come into an upper level which initially made a seven block high cliff, preventing access without breaking or placing blocks.

It took me over an hour just to light up the cavern, I spent more than half of the time fighting off swarms of mobs coming at me from all directions, including right out of the ceiling. It was a gauntlet, at times it was difficult to advance faster than the mobs pushed me back. In that cavern alone, I collected more than a full stack of most basic mob loot items. I didn't manage to shut off the siege until over half of the cave system had been explored. The whole bit was actually fairly small, with the cavern taking up a significant fraction of it.

Here's a video which shows the cavern and cave system plus some of the weird terrain around the cave and stronghold from spectator mode:

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

Every time somebody says this I compare the latest version to 1.7.2 and I see the exact same caves - absolutely no changes whatsoever (not counting cave openings in deserts and mesas, which is simply due to adding more blocks that they can cut through) - which I've also confirmed by looking at the code (incidentally, my first post on these forums was to give proof that 1.7 changed cave generation):

Here is another comparison between 1.6.4 and a slightly older version showing that several caves generated exactly the same (the RNG happened to choose the same parameters for these caves; after all, all they changed was the size and chance of cave systems):

In fact, the only real difference in the code between 1.6.4 and the latest version is a change to two hard-coded values which determine the size and chance of cave systems - editing them back to 1.6.4 perfectly replicates that version's cave generation (ravines are a bit different due to a change in a value from 128 to 256 but this only affects their curvature; their position, altitude, starting direction, and size are otherwise the same).

Even mineshafts are still the same; the only change in 1.7 is that they are 40% as common and any mineshaft (outside of mesa biomes in 1.10+, and that may only affect their altitude) that exists in 1.7+ exists in the same configuration as in 1.6.4, as seen in the seed "-77415187845230931" at around 320, -175:

1.12:

The largest possible single cave (not cave system!) in any version is 112 blocks long with the main cave extending for 83 blocks before branching into two branches at right angles which each continue for the remainder of the length; branches are always 4-5 blocks wide, and up to 27 blocks wide (assuming the cave branches at 50% or more of its full length), and the overall number of caves did not decrease that much in 1.7+; in fact, since cave systems are much less dense and ravines (with about 1/3 as much air volume overall as caves) were unchanged the decrease in underground air volume is even less. Here is a chart of the width distribution of caves in 1.6.4; 1.7+ is the same except that caves are 77% as common (multiply chunks by 1.3; the table gives figures for each map zoom level plus 3x3 level 3 maps, representing the maximum distance I explore in most of my worlds):

(note that the Wiki claims that circular rooms can get much larger but they are incorrect; they also claim that ravines only reach up to 7 blocks wide)

An hour? I consider that to be a small cave system; the average cave system (yes, average) in 1.6.4 takes more than a full 3-4 hour play session to explore with more than 3,000 ores mined. The largest? This is the largest cave system I found in my first world - far from the largest that I've seen in any world (and arguably not the largest in this world depending on how you define a cave system, such as whether a large network of highly interconnected cave systems (but still separated enough to identify them) is a single cave system):

Likewise, a large mineshaft complex? I recently mined more than 16,000 resources from one in my first world, including more than 1,000 rails in two sessions each:

Check out all of this loot! That's more than 12,000 mineral resources and more than 16,000 overall (the blocks in the lower-left are mod blocks which are equivalent to 4 cobwebs and 9 rails each. Note that I only took cobwebs from around cave spider spawners):

And that's not the largest one either; in the same world I found one that was twice as large, combined with a huge cave system.

Here are screenshots I took using MCEdit, plus some other caves, to try to show just how vast caves are in 1.6.4 (which again means cave systems, not individual caves); what you see is only a tiny part of the world:

A massive cave system around 1850, 500:

An even larger cave system lies a few hundred blocks to the east:

A massive complex of caves and mineshafts around -50, -1700 (the largest one in this world, with both the largest single cave system and largest concentration of mineshafts):

Not the largest cave system I've ever found though; this monstrosity can be found in the seed "-7501191248410737040" at around -375, 200 and has a volume of more than half a million air blocks, with more than 500 individual tunnels and 100 circular rooms:

From an analysis of the caves within the area; note that the largest possible single cave system in 1.7+ has an initial size of only 14, and generates only once every 23,625 chunks on average, compared to a mere 153 chunks for a cave system of the same size or larger in 1.6.4, which can have a size of up to 39 - you'd need 26 of the largest possible cave system in 1.7+ to create this:

Size 1 cave system at -416, 112; total number of caves: 2

Size 21 cave system at -352, 112; total number of caves: 39

Size 2 cave system at -480, 128; total number of caves: 2

Size 21 cave system at -336, 144; total number of caves: 27

Size 24 cave system at -400, 160; total number of caves: 40

Size 13 cave system at -384, 160; total number of caves: 19

Size 6 cave system at -512, 176; total number of caves: 6

Size 2 cave system at -464, 176; total number of caves: 2

Size 3 cave system at -256, 176; total number of caves: 5

Size 2 cave system at -304, 192; total number of caves: 2

Size 29 cave system at -448, 208; total number of caves: 36

Size 12 cave system at -416, 208; total number of caves: 18

Size 21 cave system at -400, 208; total number of caves: 28

Size 3 cave system at -352, 208; total number of caves: 6

Size 7 cave system at -256, 208; total number of caves: 9

Size 13 cave system at -448, 224; total number of caves: 13

Size 20 cave system at -352, 224; total number of caves: 34

Size 6 cave system at -352, 240; total number of caves: 6

Size 3 cave system at -336, 240; total number of caves: 3

Size 21 cave system at -304, 240; total number of caves: 28

Size 1 cave system at -256, 240; total number of caves: 1

Size 3 cave system at -464, 256; total number of caves: 9

Size 23 cave system at -400, 256; total number of caves: 28

Size 26 cave system at -368, 256; total number of caves: 37

Size 21 cave system at -416, 272; total number of caves: 34

Size 1 cave system at -352, 272; total number of caves: 4

Size 1 cave system at -480, 288; total number of caves: 3

Size 27 cave system at -416, 288; total number of caves: 43

Size 2 cave system at -384, 288; total number of caves: 2

Size 3 cave system at -448, 320; total number of caves: 3

Size 19 cave system at -352, 320; total number of caves: 28

Initial number of caves: 364

Total number of caves: 526

Additional circular room caves: 162

Number of small caves: 511; average width is 6.11

Number of large caves: 15; average width is 13.75

Number of circular rooms: 101; average width is 10.9

Additional caves per circular room: 1.6

Average altitude: 27.89

Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 25.86

Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 18.63

Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 19.96

Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 10.07

Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 7.98

Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 6.65

Percentage of caves above layer 59: 10.84

Yet another huge complex of caves, plus a stronghold around 50, -550 (if you look closely the End portal can be seen to the left of center):

A couple huge cave systems, with the one on the right, centered at -800, -1050, being the largest and densest cave system I've found:

Some in-game screenshots:

Here is an Unmined rendering of the cave system (in a recreated world) - you can see that the center is so dense that there are no recognizable tunnels:

And that isn't even the densest cave system that I've seen - that big hole you see is not a single huge cave but so many tunnels that virtually all blocks have been erased (seed "-7978171164721551672" at 1600, 1900):

Even more caves, around -1400, -700 or so, part of a very large complex:

The complex of mineshafts from which I recently collected more than 16,000 resources, around -1900, 100:

Another huge cave system around -2300, -640, with sunlight and snow nearly reaching lava level:

An in-game screenshot before I lit it up:

And yet another huge cave system, around -1850, -500 (due to a bug in the game this cave system actually contains some of the exact same caves as the one at 1850, 500, unnoticeable due to all the other caves):

Also, these renderings I often post of my world?

To help put the scale of those into perspective here is how large the world is - more than 6000x6000 blocks, nearly 90,000 chunks, and with more than half a million torches (all placed by me except for a handful in villages; mineshafts were modified to remove them so they do not render on the cave view, which only renders caves with torches in them) and enough obsidian (mostly from me pouring water on lava) to cover more than 3,100 chunks (about 892x892 blocks):

That is due to MC-105035; the changes made to mineshafts in 1.10 so they do not generate above the surface in mesas often affects mineshafts even when deep underground because they apparently added the code used for all mineshafts, not just ones in mesas, and it is buggy, this also ruins Superflat worlds with floating mineshafts (MC-103559); caves do not and never have been able to cut apart any kind of structure since they generate in an entirely separate stage of terrain generation (the cave generator operates on the raw data produced by the terrain generator before it is used to initialize a chunk with all other features being added when a chunk is populated; in my mods I even let caves cut through all blocks except for water and bedrock with no issues. Strongholds and dungeons fake this by not overwriting air where there should be walls, unless it is the portal room, and anything inside (such as chests and doors) generates unless there is water or lava in the way).

TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.

TheMasterCaver's World - my flagship mod which combines my own ideas with 1.7+ features, with emphasis on underground content.

Why do I still play in 1.6.4?

I said it was a small system, it's the cavern itself that is large. It took me over an hour just to light that cavern that I showed in the picture, not counting the time spent when I left the cave system to restock on wood and food.

I can accept that the 1.12 terrain generation isn't changed, but I am still excited about what I found because apparently in the current terrain generator it is very strange and rare.

P.S.: Do you have any videos of you doing caving? I sent you a PM asking this but I don't think you saw it.

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

I've never made any videos (for any reason); the closest that I've come to fully documenting a play session is taking a lot of screenshots; I took a lot more than usual when playing my most recent modded world (more than 1,000 total); for example, in this post and the following posts I document exploring one of my mod's "giant cave regions" (it took more than 5,500 torches to light it up over 5 play sessions; despite its size I collected less resources in more time than I did from a complex of 9 mineshafts and associated caves and ravines in vanilla since it is the surface area, not volume, that matters most).

TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.

TheMasterCaver's World - my flagship mod which combines my own ideas with 1.7+ features, with emphasis on underground content.

Why do I still play in 1.6.4?

Could you just record yourself caving for about ten minutes or so? You don't have to narrate or anything. I just want to watch your style.

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

I started playing in beta 1.2 (before beds) and I always liked spelunking because it's like a neverending adventure with proper challenges, goals and prizes, while the rest of the game doesn't offer much in that regard.

To make it work I had to tweak a few things, especially using a testure pack to make the dark actually dark (and spooky), activating Optifine's dynamic lights to make the atmosphere more realistic and for being able to throw torches in a pit to see how deep it is, disabling ravine generation (which are just a mix of annyoing + free loot) and making

allores diamond-rare and spawning almost at any height (with moderately larger veins), so that strip-mining is no longer a (super boring) option.My game is

hunting for dungeons(which I made as common as they used to be back in beta) and then using them as the basis formy own mega-dungeon, which is the only thing I build because houses literally serve no purpose a hole in the ground can't. Basically I search for a cave entrance on the surface then start exploring it until I'm sure everything as been visited, marking any dungeon I find.Well, I started exploring this cave (1.11.2) and after maybe 10 hours I finally finished exploring it all when I saw this crack in a cave with a mineshaft on the other side. Now I know this will take much longer.

I'm not saying 1.7+ has as many caves as 1.6, there are multiple proofs against this. I'm just saying more caves than this would take away the sense of completion that I get when I finally finish exploring a large cave complex, eventually leading to frustration.

To each his own, I guess. BTW this thread proves TheMasterCaver deserves his nickname!

branch mining*

I agree. I probably cave better than anyone I know except for TheMasterCaver. But I like to finish a cave system and move on to the next. It bugs me when one seems to stretch on endlessly, or when there's so many caves running into each other that it becomes really difficult to spawnproof because there's a constant mob siege coming from all directions and there's 5+ corners to go around at one nexus plus the floor is out on half of it. I don't mind stumbling upon that occasionally but what I hated most about caves in 1.7+ is that that is commonplace sometimes. It seems to vary a lot actually, but in a given region you might get all nice neat individual caves, and in another region you just get swiss cheese ground everywhere. For quite some time I had thought there were subtle variations in each version of the game onward, because each new world seemed to generate a different style of caves. My 1.7 world's caves were nice and simple. My 1.8 world had swiss cheese everywhere and ravines so common you couldn't ride a horse more than 5 seconds without falling into one you couldn't see in time. My 1.9 world was more like my 1.7 world, until I went 10k by 16k blocks from the origin and found a monster cavern the likes of which I had previously thought couldn't possibly generate in the 1.7 terrain generator, plus swiss cheese caves a lot like my 1.8 world but with their own distinct flavor. I think you get a pattern that propagates itself over a large area and all the caves in your region have various similarities.

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

Did you mean to say 1.6.4 instead of 1.7+? Because the variation you describe sounds a lot more like 1.6.4 cave generation, which has much greater regional variation; for example, here are various regions from my first world:

This is just to the southwest of the area shown above, with very few caves:

This is the most extreme region as far as cave density goes:

An area with more average cave density:

Another area with relatively sparse caves:

Another one of the more extreme areas, but also with a large cave-free region:

Also, I've analyzed the variations in cave density before as shown in this series of charts (only one seed was used but that doesn't matter in most cases):

The differences in the charts above can be better seen in this comparison of caves between 1.6.4 and 1.7+ (each area is 4000x4000 blocks):

TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.

TheMasterCaver's World - my flagship mod which combines my own ideas with 1.7+ features, with emphasis on underground content.

Why do I still play in 1.6.4?

No. I've seen your charts and I understand the differences very well. What I'm saying is that I want less swiss cheese caves than the new terrain generator gives. I like variation over large distances, but I don't like it when caves going through caves is common even just in one region. I'd like variations in cave and cavern width and size, and variation in the size of a cave system, but I want individual cave channels to avoid all diving into each other at one point and completely destroying the terrain right there.

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

That makes it sound like you just want caves to be some isolated tunnels, not real cave systems with large random caverns created by the intersection of many individual tunnels - which is why I do not like 1.7+ cave generation; if you think that a few caves intersecting is bad, well, it isn't uncommon to find dozens or more in 1.6.4, where a single chunk can easily have 20-40 caves; for example, here is a list of every cave system within the spawn chunks in my world (as shown on this map), with the largest cave system having 41 caves, with another cave system with 26 caves right next to it:

Center is -96, 224 (chunk -6, 14)

Radius is 12 chunks (square)

Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 12 cave system at -112, 32; total number of caves: 15

Size 3 cave system at -32, 32; total number of caves: 4

Size 1 cave system at 32, 32; total number of caves: 1

Size 4 cave system at -240, 48; total number of caves: 4

Size 1 cave system at -160, 48; total number of caves: 1

Size 9 cave system at -208, 64; total number of caves: 15

Size 1 cave system at -272, 80; total number of caves: 1

Size 9 cave system at -112, 96; total number of caves: 15

Size 3 cave system at -240, 112; total number of caves: 3

Size 4 cave system at -176, 112; total number of caves: 4

Size 29 cave system at -16, 112; total number of caves: 41

Size 1 cave system at 16, 112; total number of caves: 1

Size 14 cave system at -16, 128; total number of caves: 26

Size 4 cave system at 16, 128; total number of caves: 7

Size 4 cave system at -80, 160; total number of caves: 4

Size 2 cave system at 80, 160; total number of caves: 2

Size 8 cave system at -160, 192; total number of caves: 13

Size 1 cave system at -64, 192; total number of caves: 1

Size 4 cave system at -240, 208; total number of caves: 4

Size 12 cave system at -112, 208; total number of caves: 16

Size 4 cave system at 80, 208; total number of caves: 7

Size 3 cave system at -144, 224; total number of caves: 3

Size 6 cave system at 0, 224; total number of caves: 7

Size 14 cave system at 32, 240; total number of caves: 20

Size 3 cave system at -176, 256; total number of caves: 3

Size 20 cave system at -240, 272; total number of caves: 30

Size 16 cave system at -32, 272; total number of caves: 27

Size 4 cave system at -256, 288; total number of caves: 4

Size 8 cave system at -96, 304; total number of caves: 8

Size 24 cave system at -240, 336; total number of caves: 31

Size 1 cave system at -192, 352; total number of caves: 1

Size 13 cave system at -240, 400; total number of caves: 19

Size 15 cave system at -192, 400; total number of caves: 22

Size 17 cave system at -128, 400; total number of caves: 23

Size 14 cave system at -64, 400; total number of caves: 18

Size 6 cave system at 16, 416; total number of caves: 15

Number of cave systems: 36

Initial number of caves: 294

Total number of caves: 416

Additional circular room caves: 122

Number of small caves: 405; average width is 6.03

Number of large caves: 11; average width is 12.28

Number of circular rooms: 74; average width is 10.85

Additional caves per circular room: 1.65

Average caves per chunk: 0.6656

Average altitude: 31.68

Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 26.20

Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 17.79

Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 14.18

Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 10.58

Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 7.69

Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 5.29

Percentage of caves above layer 59: 18.27

Here is the same area in 1.7+; the largest single cave system had 16 caves, which is also the most within a 3x3 chunk area around the three largest single cave systems; the average size of a cave system was 4.41 caves compared to 11.56 in 1.6.4:

Center is -96, 224 (chunk -6, 14)

Radius is 12 chunks (square)

Version used is >= 1.7.2

Size 1 cave system at 16, 32; total number of caves: 1

Size 1 cave system at -288, 48; total number of caves: 1

Size 7 cave system at -144, 64; total number of caves: 7

Size 1 cave system at 80, 64; total number of caves: 1

Size 5 cave system at -288, 96; total number of caves: 9

Size 2 cave system at -176, 112; total number of caves: 2

Size 9 cave system at 0, 112; total number of caves: 15

Size 1 cave system at -256, 128; total number of caves: 3

Size 1 cave system at 0, 128; total number of caves: 1

Size 1 cave system at 96, 144; total number of caves: 1

Size 4 cave system at -224, 160; total number of caves: 5

Size 3 cave system at -176, 160; total number of caves: 9

Size 4 cave system at -80, 160; total number of caves: 4

Size 2 cave system at -48, 160; total number of caves: 2

Size 3 cave system at -16, 160; total number of caves: 3

Size 3 cave system at 48, 176; total number of caves: 6

Size 1 cave system at -224, 208; total number of caves: 1

Size 6 cave system at -208, 208; total number of caves: 6

Size 1 cave system at -176, 208; total number of caves: 1

Size 7 cave system at -64, 208; total number of caves: 16

Size 1 cave system at 64, 208; total number of caves: 1

Size 1 cave system at -288, 224; total number of caves: 1

Size 2 cave system at 64, 224; total number of caves: 2

Size 2 cave system at -176, 240; total number of caves: 2

Size 3 cave system at 48, 240; total number of caves: 6

Size 5 cave system at 64, 240; total number of caves: 6

Size 5 cave system at -176, 256; total number of caves: 9

Size 1 cave system at -144, 256; total number of caves: 1

Size 3 cave system at -16, 256; total number of caves: 6

Size 2 cave system at -224, 272; total number of caves: 3

Size 1 cave system at -128, 272; total number of caves: 1

Size 1 cave system at -48, 272; total number of caves: 1

Size 4 cave system at -256, 304; total number of caves: 5

Size 3 cave system at -192, 304; total number of caves: 5

Size 8 cave system at -96, 304; total number of caves: 8

Size 2 cave system at -16, 304; total number of caves: 2

Size 1 cave system at 32, 304; total number of caves: 1

Size 3 cave system at 64, 320; total number of caves: 3

Size 4 cave system at -160, 336; total number of caves: 11

Size 1 cave system at 0, 336; total number of caves: 1

Size 4 cave system at 80, 336; total number of caves: 5

Size 2 cave system at -208, 352; total number of caves: 2

Size 2 cave system at 16, 352; total number of caves: 2

Size 4 cave system at 64, 368; total number of caves: 5

Size 5 cave system at 96, 368; total number of caves: 5

Size 3 cave system at -288, 384; total number of caves: 4

Size 10 cave system at -208, 384; total number of caves: 14

Size 6 cave system at -80, 384; total number of caves: 9

Size 2 cave system at -256, 400; total number of caves: 2

Size 1 cave system at 16, 400; total number of caves: 1

Size 3 cave system at 64, 416; total number of caves: 7

Number of cave systems: 51

Initial number of caves: 158

Total number of caves: 225

Additional circular room caves: 67

Number of small caves: 221; average width is 5.96

Number of large caves: 4; average width is 11.95

Number of circular rooms: 42; average width is 10.87

Additional caves per circular room: 1.60

Average caves per chunk: 0.36

Average altitude: 34.76

Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 18.67

Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 22.67

Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 16.00

Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 8.89

Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 5.33

Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 8.00

Percentage of caves above layer 59: 20.44

Also, this gives you some idea of how large and dense cave systems can get in 1.6.4; the second one shown contains 70 caves in a single chunk and 113 caves in two adjacent chunks; needless to say, there isn't much solid ground remaining in the lower levels (the largest possible size in 1.6.4 is 39 with as many as 156 tunnels; 1.7 is limited to 14 and 56 respectively. A cave system with an initial size of 14 or more occurs about once every 153 chunks in 1.6.4, compared to 23625 in 1.7+):

Seed is -123775873255737467

Center is -816, -1040 (chunk -51, -65)

Radius is 4 chunks (square)

Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 26 cave system at -816, -1104; total number of caves: 37

Size 3 cave system at -784, -1104; total number of caves: 3

Size 24 cave system at -832, -1072; total number of caves: 34

Size 2 cave system at -768, -1072; total number of caves: 2

Size 23 cave system at -816, -1056; total number of caves: 39

Size 20 cave system at -800, -1024; total number of caves: 31

Size 3 cave system at -784, -1024; total number of caves: 3

Size 13 cave system at -800, -992; total number of caves: 18

Size 4 cave system at -864, -976; total number of caves: 7

Number of cave systems: 9

Initial number of caves: 118

Total number of caves: 174

Additional circular room caves: 56

Number of small caves: 171; average width is 6.04

Number of large caves: 3; average width is 12.18

Number of circular rooms: 33; average width is 10.38

Additional caves per circular room: 1.70

Average caves per chunk: 2.148148

Average altitude: 31.25

Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 21.84

Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 22.99

Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 12.07

Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 10.92

Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 8.05

Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 6.90

Percentage of caves above layer 59: 17.24

Seed is -7978171164721551672

Center is 1600, 1888 (chunk 100, 118)

Radius is 4 chunks (square)

Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 17 cave system at 1536, 1872; total number of caves: 24

Size 5 cave system at 1552, 1904; total number of caves: 5

Size 30 cave system at 1584, 1904; total number of caves: 43

Size 1 cave system at 1536, 1920; total number of caves: 1

Size 39 cave system at 1584, 1920; total number of caves: 70

Size 2 cave system at 1536, 1936; total number of caves: 2

Size 1 cave system at 1568, 1936; total number of caves: 3

Size 6 cave system at 1616, 1952; total number of caves: 9

Size 5 cave system at 1632, 1952; total number of caves: 8

Number of cave systems: 9

Initial number of caves: 106

Total number of caves: 165

Additional circular room caves: 59

Number of small caves: 158; average width is 6.00

Number of large caves: 7; average width is 10.72

Number of circular rooms: 33; average width is 11.72

Additional caves per circular room: 1.79

Average caves per chunk: 2.0370371

Average altitude: 28.56

Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 22.42

Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 30.30

Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 9.09

Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 9.70

Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 9.09

Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 5.45

Percentage of caves above layer 59: 13.94

Seed is -6923329256941061233

Center is 176, 240 (chunk 11, 15)

Radius is 4 chunks (square)

Version used is <= 1.6.4

Size 26 cave system at 176, 192; total number of caves: 37

Size 6 cave system at 224, 192; total number of caves: 8

Size 3 cave system at 112, 208; total number of caves: 3

Size 1 cave system at 160, 208; total number of caves: 1

Size 8 cave system at 208, 208; total number of caves: 8

Size 24 cave system at 176, 224; total number of caves: 38

Size 36 cave system at 176, 240; total number of caves: 61

Size 18 cave system at 208, 240; total number of caves: 21

Size 3 cave system at 240, 240; total number of caves: 4

Size 17 cave system at 208, 256; total number of caves: 22

Size 7 cave system at 224, 256; total number of caves: 13

Size 7 cave system at 160, 272; total number of caves: 12

Size 1 cave system at 224, 288; total number of caves: 1

Size 4 cave system at 112, 304; total number of caves: 7

Size 32 cave system at 160, 304; total number of caves: 50

Size 1 cave system at 208, 304; total number of caves: 2

Size 3 cave system at 240, 304; total number of caves: 5

Number of cave systems: 17

Initial number of caves: 197

Total number of caves: 293

Additional circular room caves: 96

Number of small caves: 282; average width is 6.12

Number of large caves: 11; average width is 11.69

Number of circular rooms: 59; average width is 11.22

Additional caves per circular room: 1.63

Average caves per chunk: 3.617284

Average altitude: 31.58

Percentage of caves on layers 0 to 9: 20.82

Percentage of caves on layers 10 to 19: 17.41

Percentage of caves on layers 20 to 29: 17.75

Percentage of caves on layers 30 to 39: 11.26

Percentage of caves on layers 40 to 49: 10.24

Percentage of caves on layers 50 to 59: 7.51

Percentage of caves above layer 59: 15.02

The code is actually written so that up to 4 tunnels can originate from a single point (a circular room), which is why the total number of caves shown above is often greater than the initial size; there is a 25% chance of a circular room per iteration and a 25% chance each of 1, 2, 3, or 4 tunnels leading from it (the 15 on the first line determines the size range of cave systems; 1.6.4 uses 40, and the 7 on the next line determines the chance; 1.6.4 uses 15, so cave systems are larger but less common):

Why do I still play in 1.6.4?

A lot of this post is just a convo between TheMasterCaver and reaverofdarknes1 lol

#TEAMINSTINCTFTW

i'm the same as you but in 1.7.10 modded i've played newer versions but not seriously

ie. never used 1.9 combat or end changes igloos and all that stuff

i started in 1.5.2 and i still have my first world C: i like these versions

EDIT:

wow i didn't know 1.7 had smaller caves i need a mod to revert it because i've experienced it

my current world was created in 1.6 and near my base there is a ginormous cave system i haven't finished exploring but when i go to 1.7 terrain i conquer the entire system easily

there is only one 1.7 system that is big like 1.6 but it's rares

Yes you've explained this before, and I strongly suspect if you poll the general Minecraft playerbase you'll find that your opinion on the matter is in the extreme minority. I'm not trying to belittle your playstyle, far from it, I'm simply making the point that the average player won't enjoy being thoroughly creamed by caves that are at your difficulty level. There should be sliders in the world options that enable caves like what you want, but the default I think caves should be less common and smoother than it is at current. As for the total size of the cave system I wouldn't mind that being bigger, especially at the upper end. But I'd ask more players for opinions on that--while many players don't cave as easily as I do, they also spend a lot less time in the caves. Maybe they prefer having it be fairly challenging for those rare occasions when they finally do venture down inside.

I want ocean content, nether biomes, and savanna passive mobs.

I like some isolated tunnes because if every cave was the start of a giant underground complex it would make spelunking predictable, so to speak, there won't be that sense of accomplishment in finding a "real" cave instead of a mere tunnel.

I'm not saying 1.7+ is better at that, just debating that single point.