Originally, I wanted to have a repair table, but it's too annoying and you end up hoarding damaged items.
It seems like with the new patch we're getting a repair system but it will not include a repair table. Do you believe a repair table should be included with the new repair system in patch 1.9? Vote and discuss!
In my opinion, I'd like both. I also think the repair table should be an anvil instead. That would give us a reason to make a blacksmith house and could add to the NPC villages. Whatever it is or looks like, having a special block to repair would be nice.
Maybe a sort of, Elder _ _ _ _ _ _ kinda thing. (Sorry i cant say there name or they will sue me :sleep.gif:) The shopkeepers in that game repair it cheaper then repair hammers do. So maybe they could have a repair table and a repair hammer, with the table being better.
It seems like with the new patch we're getting a repair system but it will not include a repair table. Do you believe a repair table should be included with the new repair system in patch 1.9? Vote and discuss!
The reason he said he doesn't want a repair table is he says you would just hoard mostly broken items while mining, then go up top and repair them. Using his method of repairing (combining items), it makes no sense to require a table. Hopefully that method is not the final method, though.
Did you play fallout: new vegas? In fallout, you didn't need a table, and could repair items in the field. It became a non-intrusive mechanic, you would repair your weapons as you could, and it was good. in new vegas, you need a tabel, and now you are dragging around 3 sniper rifles so you can fix your rifle when you finally find a table.
The same effect will occur in minecraft. If you have to wait to get back to the table you will be carrying broken tools with you, eating up inventory space. Since you get a bonus for repairing, you will want to bring back partial tools instead of using them up. Without that bonus, repairing is meaningless. 50 uses on one pick and 100 on another is just as good as 150 on a single pick. Using up the pick frees up the extra inventory space, so the only benefit is not having to switch tools. And the hassle(however minute) of repairing a tool is going to be more than switching tools.
Hence, allowing the player to repair on the fly means that they can take those two half-broken picks, and repair one on the spot. Not draggin it back t base, no fabircating a repair table on the spot. Just repair and go. Nice and streamlined.
And guess what? This is what notch said was happening. My theory translates to practice, and hence the repair table, however appealing it may sound on paper, does not work well in practice.
Did you play fallout: new vegas? In fallout, you didn't need a table, and could repair items in the field. It became a non-intrusive mechanic, you would repair your weapons as you could, and it was good. in new vegas, you need a tabel, and now you are dragging around 3 sniper rifles so you can fix your rifle when you finally find a table.
The same effect will occur in minecraft. If you have to wait to get back to the table you will be carrying broken tools with you, eating up inventory space. Since you get a bonus for repairing, you will want to bring back partial tools instead of using them up. Without that bonus, repairing is meaningless. 50 uses on one pick and 100 on another is just as good as 150 on a single pick. Using up the pick frees up the extra inventory space, so the only benefit is not having to switch tools. And the hassle(however minute) of repairing a tool is going to be more than switching tools.
Hence, allowing the player to repair on the fly means that they can take those two half-broken picks, and repair one on the spot. Not draggin it back t base, no fabircating a repair table on the spot. Just repair and go. Nice and streamlined.
And guess what? This is what notch said was happening. My theory translates to practice, and hence the repair table, however appealing it may sound on paper, does not work well in practice.
So why is having both options a problem? In addition, you can bring a repair table with you unlike Fallout. Another thing, this is Minecraft and not Fallout.
So why is having both options a problem? In addition, you can bring a repair table with you unlike Fallout. Another thing, this is Minecraft and not Fallout.
If there's a repair table, and the only reason you have it is to combine two picks together, and you would never want to do such a thing on the surface so the only one you ever make sits in your inventory, that's poor design.
honestly, just have it work on both the 2x2 and 3x3 grids. No need for a dedicated "Repair" table, as you already have a Crafting Table. Though I am all for different styles of Crafting Tables.
Normal wood (2x2 wood), stone top (2stone 2wood), iron top, gold top, diamond top, etc... Each Crafting Table could have a direct bonus to the Repair skill (a greater bonus to repaired item durability). Plus they could give other bonuses to items made on them.
A catch to balance it out a bit could be that you could make the Wood Crafting Table on your 2x2 grid, but all additional tables have to be made on the previous one. So you make Stone on Wood table, Iron on Stone Table, Gold on Iron Table, Diamond on Iron or Gold Table. (you should't have to hunt for Gold to make Diamond Tables, but Gold should still work for making them, so Diamonds get a perk).
So why is having both options a problem? In addition, you can bring a repair table with you unlike Fallout. Another thing, this is Minecraft and not Fallout.
Why have a repair table if you can just repair them without it? And taking a repair table kinda defeats the purpose. "Let me save inventory space by filling up my inventory".
And just beacuse they are different games doesn't mean we can't learn from similar mechanics. I was able to makea prediction of what happens with the different mechanics, and it matches up exactly with what notch said was happening. He playtested it, and came to the conclusion that it isn't a good mechanic. Yet, without playing it, you think it should be added.
Tell me then:
What does adding a repair table do for the system?
How does carrying a repair table enhance the experience?
Because if you have a repair table, there are 3 cases I can see:
1. leave the table at your base
You repair tools when you return from your trip. In the meantime, you have half-broken tools clogging your inventory. This means your inventory will fill up faster, and you have to make more return trips.
2. bring a table with you
You now have to spend the time to place the table, repair your items, and pick the table back up. Thisis taking up more inventory space, and adding a hassle. Your tools are effectively half as durable, since you only use half the durabilty before moving on to a new tool. The resource-> blocks ratio improves, but the invetory space->blocks mined ratios decreases. You use up one half pick, then the other half pick, stop, place your table, repair them, pik the table up, and continue, having gained x% of a tool worth of durabilty. Unless you are working with stone, that time is low enough that it is beneficial to harvest it, but the mechanic of doing so kinda sucks.
3. make a table on the spot
Without knowing the cost of a table, it is impossible to specifically analyze this. if it is made purely from wood, then it is possible to craft it based on standard mining supplies. If it requires a table, that is an additional thing to craft/bring with you. If it is made of iron, or contains iron, then you need to bring smelted iron with you, which takes up an extra inventory space again, and you won't want to leave it behind othrwise the resource benefit of repairing the tools would be lost. Once you get past that, you have the same properties as case 2.
None of those options sounds like a brilliant stroke of game design.
If you don't have a table, and cando it on the spot:
4. You take multiple tools with you. You use up half of one, half of another , repair them together easily with not fuss, and continue on.
This increases the mineral efficiency of your tools, which by itself is not very meaningful. It would be adding a maintence task(As orvus will be sure to complain about) for an increase in efficiency, which you could accomplish the same effect by just icnreasing all the durabilities and avoid the hassle.
However, I see 2 cases where it makes a difference.
1. Combat gear.
If your sword breaks in the middle of the fight, it is somewhat more than inconvient, unless you are prepared for it. Armour even more-so. Hence, low-durability combat gear gets more benefit from being repaired than used up completely and replaced.
2. Special items.
Completely hypothetically, if you got a special sword (from killing a boss, perhaps), you would probably prefer to maintain it and get its bonuses rather than use it up. Repairing it with a similar base tool maintains the cost of using a tool, but you also get the special effect or use of the item on top of that, as a reward for killing the boss(or whatever you would hypothetically do to earn a special item).
Number 1 you do not need a repair table to fix weapons in New vegas it still has the same system as fallout 3 and Number 2 I am in favor of an anvil and repair hammer system.
Ok, I may have been mistaken. I thought you coudl only repair at tables, which was enough to put me off trying to train the skill, even though I used it frequently in fallout 3.
I fully understand the appeal of having a repair table. What I am contensting is that it will improve gameplay. Explain to me a crafting table mechanic that will support good gameplay and I will jump on your bandwagon.
As long as I can use the little 2x2 grid in my inventory to smash them together, combining seems the simpler way to include the idea of repairing without getting bogged down on this one aspect of the game.
I'd much prefer that Mojang spend the majority of their time on the things that make Minecraft unique, and not on the details it shares with other sandbox or adventure games.
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More Ocean Life: Kelp, Coral, Crabs and Jellyfish; Coconut Palm trees for beaches and islands. Terrain Generation Changes: Which biomes and world-building features are most in need of change?
All right the reasoning behind me favororing the blacksmith approch is that sure in the beginning it is just repairing but later on we could use said anvil to make alloys for new arms and armor and possible new weapon types and somewhere in there we get enchantments maybe by putting gems in said arms and armor.
While I'm not against any of those things, I don't think an anvil will lead to them. We've had all of those things be suggested, both with new items and existing mechanics, literally for years. Adding in a anvil for repairing items will not lead to those things.
Ok, I may have been mistaken. I thought you coudl only repair at tables, which was enough to put me off trying to train the skill, even though I used it frequently in fallout 3.
I fully understand the appeal of having a repair table. What I am contensting is that it will improve gameplay. Explain to me a crafting table mechanic that will support good gameplay and I will jump on your bandwagon.
There could be a more developed crafting station system that supports a 'lower tier' work station that allows for repairing. Say...allow metal items to be crafted at an anvil, but repairing and other crafts just take a workbench. I normally haul a workbench along with me to save inventory space (by making additional tools as I go). This would push the idea of repairing being more convenient than simply bringing more tools (or tool materials).
The drawback I see to this method is that stone tools are fine for 95% of what you do, and those make no sense to be made on an anvil (hell, it would be impossible to do so since you need iron for the anvil). So if you use stone tools for the majority of your labor (which I do), the anvil just turns into a weird milestone item.
Using a repair table would be a much better idea. You should have to return to your workshop to repair items, it doesn't make sense to be able to 'combine' two swords while wandering around somewhere.
Plus it would add another cool item to be able to put in workshops/storage rooms. Call it either a repair table, similar looking to the crafting table, or maybe make it an anvil.
Using a repair table would be a much better idea. You should have to return to your workshop to repair items, it doesn't make sense to be able to 'combine' two swords while wandering around somewhere.
Plus it would add another cool item to be able to put in workshops/storage rooms. Call it either a repair table, similar looking to the crafting table, or maybe make it an anvil.
That's exactly the sort of thing Notch wants to avoid - making people carry around an inventory loaded with broken or partially used tools. I'd agree with him, that sounds like the opposite of fun to me.
More Ocean Life: Kelp, Coral, Crabs and Jellyfish; Coconut Palm trees for beaches and islands. Terrain Generation Changes: Which biomes and world-building features are most in need of change?
It would be better if we could just re-smelt damaged swords and tools to get a portion of the mats used. Ingots and nuggets of metal and diamond.
This "synthesizing" method is kind of stupid, to be honest. Combining two broken weapons or tools to make one good one = just plain nonsensical.
Lazy and / or unimaginative game design, in my opinion.
Smelting them into componts is inherently unbalanced, since we have interger materials.
Case 1: proprotional to damage,rounding down
A full pick can be borken down into 3 ingots. A half-damaged pick breaks down to 1 ingot, so youi coudl turn 3* 1/2 pick into 1 pick, thereby losing a half pick of value. A pick under 1/3 damage is worhtless.
This does not work since you are losing material, making it determental to do
Case 2: proprotional to damage, rounding up
2/3+.01 of a pick duirabilty, deconstruct it to 3 ingots. I now have obtained nearly 1/3 of a pick worth of mining for no cost.
This does not work since you can perpetually gain resources
Case 3: fixed return
Mine a pick to nearly dead, harvest it for max refund
This does not work well since it just means you need to drag old picks back to be re-smelted.
Case 4: random chance based on durabilty
if balanced to give a constant amortized return, then repairing is pointless.
if balanced to give a higher return, it has the same issues as number 2, just with lower reliability.
if balanced to give a lower return, it is unwise to do it.
balanced to give a higher return could work. Lets says you ahve a 75% chance to breeak even or get more ores than the pick alone would suggest. You make a pick, mine with it to 2 ingots worth. 25% of the time you get 1 ingot, for a net change of -1. You now need to include 2 more ingots to remake your pick, giving you 1 ingot of mined resources for 2 ingots of repair, so a -1 ingot of net gain 25% of the time.
75% of the time you break even or better. Lets wieght that for breaking even. 50% of the time you get 2 iron ingots back. This means you get 1 ingots worth of mining, and 1 ingot worth of repair, so a net change of 0 ingot.
and 25% of the time you get 3 back, meaning that you have gained an ingot worht of mining for no cost. This is a profit of 1 ingot.
25% *-1+50%*0+25%*1 = 0, making the whole ordeal pointless.
If we weight that 75% towards making a profit, we get 25%*-1 + 25%*0+50%*1, or a 25% increase.
This gives us a proporional increase in resources, which is good. However, it is based on long-term trends, menaing that in the short term it is very likely you will suffer a deficit or a profit on a whim, which I don't think is a very good mechanic to introduce. Mining works n a random bases for a few reasons.
1. it is in the player's control to influence it
Proper mining techniques can have radical shifts in your efficiency, making HOW you mine important and part of the game.
2. It is always amortized over the long term. With so many blocks being managed, the deviation from the norm is fairl minor. I have done the math. Even the deviation on finding diamonds is fairly tight. Its random enough to be unpredicatable and exciting, but controlled enough to be balanced.
This would not share that property, since you have a very small set of instnaces of this random chance, each with an individually large impact. Hence, if you are trying to get benefit from this, you have to pretty much pray to the mining gods to bless you, since while the long-term trend may be positive, the short term trend, where most of the gameplay would occur, is all over the place.
Case 5: repairing as Notch proposes
You introduce a positive gain from the repair, so .4+.4 = 1. This give you a 25% increase in effective durability, making it worthwhile to do. However, you need a constant supply of new picks to get the benefit, so it does not spiral out of control, and represents a nice steady increase in efficiency.
Now I anticipate you will ignore all of my math and go on beleiving whatever you will.
It seems like with the new patch we're getting a repair system but it will not include a repair table. Do you believe a repair table should be included with the new repair system in patch 1.9? Vote and discuss!
The reason he said he doesn't want a repair table is he says you would just hoard mostly broken items while mining, then go up top and repair them. Using his method of repairing (combining items), it makes no sense to require a table. Hopefully that method is not the final method, though.
The same effect will occur in minecraft. If you have to wait to get back to the table you will be carrying broken tools with you, eating up inventory space. Since you get a bonus for repairing, you will want to bring back partial tools instead of using them up. Without that bonus, repairing is meaningless. 50 uses on one pick and 100 on another is just as good as 150 on a single pick. Using up the pick frees up the extra inventory space, so the only benefit is not having to switch tools. And the hassle(however minute) of repairing a tool is going to be more than switching tools.
Hence, allowing the player to repair on the fly means that they can take those two half-broken picks, and repair one on the spot. Not draggin it back t base, no fabircating a repair table on the spot. Just repair and go. Nice and streamlined.
And guess what? This is what notch said was happening. My theory translates to practice, and hence the repair table, however appealing it may sound on paper, does not work well in practice.
So why is having both options a problem? In addition, you can bring a repair table with you unlike Fallout. Another thing, this is Minecraft and not Fallout.
If there's a repair table, and the only reason you have it is to combine two picks together, and you would never want to do such a thing on the surface so the only one you ever make sits in your inventory, that's poor design.
Normal wood (2x2 wood), stone top (2stone 2wood), iron top, gold top, diamond top, etc... Each Crafting Table could have a direct bonus to the Repair skill (a greater bonus to repaired item durability). Plus they could give other bonuses to items made on them.
A catch to balance it out a bit could be that you could make the Wood Crafting Table on your 2x2 grid, but all additional tables have to be made on the previous one. So you make Stone on Wood table, Iron on Stone Table, Gold on Iron Table, Diamond on Iron or Gold Table. (you should't have to hunt for Gold to make Diamond Tables, but Gold should still work for making them, so Diamonds get a perk).
However, he's got a point. Crafting would be a lot more convenient
Why have a repair table if you can just repair them without it? And taking a repair table kinda defeats the purpose. "Let me save inventory space by filling up my inventory".
And just beacuse they are different games doesn't mean we can't learn from similar mechanics. I was able to makea prediction of what happens with the different mechanics, and it matches up exactly with what notch said was happening. He playtested it, and came to the conclusion that it isn't a good mechanic. Yet, without playing it, you think it should be added.
Tell me then:
What does adding a repair table do for the system?
How does carrying a repair table enhance the experience?
Because if you have a repair table, there are 3 cases I can see:
1. leave the table at your base
You repair tools when you return from your trip. In the meantime, you have half-broken tools clogging your inventory. This means your inventory will fill up faster, and you have to make more return trips.
2. bring a table with you
You now have to spend the time to place the table, repair your items, and pick the table back up. Thisis taking up more inventory space, and adding a hassle. Your tools are effectively half as durable, since you only use half the durabilty before moving on to a new tool. The resource-> blocks ratio improves, but the invetory space->blocks mined ratios decreases. You use up one half pick, then the other half pick, stop, place your table, repair them, pik the table up, and continue, having gained x% of a tool worth of durabilty. Unless you are working with stone, that time is low enough that it is beneficial to harvest it, but the mechanic of doing so kinda sucks.
3. make a table on the spot
Without knowing the cost of a table, it is impossible to specifically analyze this. if it is made purely from wood, then it is possible to craft it based on standard mining supplies. If it requires a table, that is an additional thing to craft/bring with you. If it is made of iron, or contains iron, then you need to bring smelted iron with you, which takes up an extra inventory space again, and you won't want to leave it behind othrwise the resource benefit of repairing the tools would be lost. Once you get past that, you have the same properties as case 2.
None of those options sounds like a brilliant stroke of game design.
If you don't have a table, and cando it on the spot:
4. You take multiple tools with you. You use up half of one, half of another , repair them together easily with not fuss, and continue on.
This increases the mineral efficiency of your tools, which by itself is not very meaningful. It would be adding a maintence task(As orvus will be sure to complain about) for an increase in efficiency, which you could accomplish the same effect by just icnreasing all the durabilities and avoid the hassle.
However, I see 2 cases where it makes a difference.
1. Combat gear.
If your sword breaks in the middle of the fight, it is somewhat more than inconvient, unless you are prepared for it. Armour even more-so. Hence, low-durability combat gear gets more benefit from being repaired than used up completely and replaced.
2. Special items.
Completely hypothetically, if you got a special sword (from killing a boss, perhaps), you would probably prefer to maintain it and get its bonuses rather than use it up. Repairing it with a similar base tool maintains the cost of using a tool, but you also get the special effect or use of the item on top of that, as a reward for killing the boss(or whatever you would hypothetically do to earn a special item).
Ok, I may have been mistaken. I thought you coudl only repair at tables, which was enough to put me off trying to train the skill, even though I used it frequently in fallout 3.
I fully understand the appeal of having a repair table. What I am contensting is that it will improve gameplay. Explain to me a crafting table mechanic that will support good gameplay and I will jump on your bandwagon.
I'd much prefer that Mojang spend the majority of their time on the things that make Minecraft unique, and not on the details it shares with other sandbox or adventure games.
Terrain Generation Changes: Which biomes and world-building features are most in need of change?
This "synthesizing" method is kind of stupid, to be honest. Combining two broken weapons or tools to make one good one = just plain nonsensical.
Lazy and / or unimaginative game design, in my opinion.
While I'm not against any of those things, I don't think an anvil will lead to them. We've had all of those things be suggested, both with new items and existing mechanics, literally for years. Adding in a anvil for repairing items will not lead to those things.
There could be a more developed crafting station system that supports a 'lower tier' work station that allows for repairing. Say...allow metal items to be crafted at an anvil, but repairing and other crafts just take a workbench. I normally haul a workbench along with me to save inventory space (by making additional tools as I go). This would push the idea of repairing being more convenient than simply bringing more tools (or tool materials).
The drawback I see to this method is that stone tools are fine for 95% of what you do, and those make no sense to be made on an anvil (hell, it would be impossible to do so since you need iron for the anvil). So if you use stone tools for the majority of your labor (which I do), the anvil just turns into a weird milestone item.
There repair skill works by using a "click tool to anvil and have 1 bar of 'X' in your inv*"
You repaired w/e amount on your tool then you keep going on with your day...McMMO was a big hit and used in alot of server's.
This take that hoarding of tools and turns in into use your ore's on something for once.
Now the anvil in McMMO was the ironblock...an anvil will be a less of an eye sore. + FK OFF we need more cool block's >=/
PS: Add random blocks that are useless like dirt and wool...-I SUPPORT IT!
Plus it would add another cool item to be able to put in workshops/storage rooms. Call it either a repair table, similar looking to the crafting table, or maybe make it an anvil.
That's exactly the sort of thing Notch wants to avoid - making people carry around an inventory loaded with broken or partially used tools. I'd agree with him, that sounds like the opposite of fun to me.
Terrain Generation Changes: Which biomes and world-building features are most in need of change?
Smelting them into componts is inherently unbalanced, since we have interger materials.
Case 1: proprotional to damage,rounding down
A full pick can be borken down into 3 ingots. A half-damaged pick breaks down to 1 ingot, so youi coudl turn 3* 1/2 pick into 1 pick, thereby losing a half pick of value. A pick under 1/3 damage is worhtless.
This does not work since you are losing material, making it determental to do
Case 2: proprotional to damage, rounding up
2/3+.01 of a pick duirabilty, deconstruct it to 3 ingots. I now have obtained nearly 1/3 of a pick worth of mining for no cost.
This does not work since you can perpetually gain resources
Case 3: fixed return
Mine a pick to nearly dead, harvest it for max refund
This does not work well since it just means you need to drag old picks back to be re-smelted.
Case 4: random chance based on durabilty
if balanced to give a constant amortized return, then repairing is pointless.
if balanced to give a higher return, it has the same issues as number 2, just with lower reliability.
if balanced to give a lower return, it is unwise to do it.
balanced to give a higher return could work. Lets says you ahve a 75% chance to breeak even or get more ores than the pick alone would suggest. You make a pick, mine with it to 2 ingots worth. 25% of the time you get 1 ingot, for a net change of -1. You now need to include 2 more ingots to remake your pick, giving you 1 ingot of mined resources for 2 ingots of repair, so a -1 ingot of net gain 25% of the time.
75% of the time you break even or better. Lets wieght that for breaking even. 50% of the time you get 2 iron ingots back. This means you get 1 ingots worth of mining, and 1 ingot worth of repair, so a net change of 0 ingot.
and 25% of the time you get 3 back, meaning that you have gained an ingot worht of mining for no cost. This is a profit of 1 ingot.
25% *-1+50%*0+25%*1 = 0, making the whole ordeal pointless.
If we weight that 75% towards making a profit, we get 25%*-1 + 25%*0+50%*1, or a 25% increase.
This gives us a proporional increase in resources, which is good. However, it is based on long-term trends, menaing that in the short term it is very likely you will suffer a deficit or a profit on a whim, which I don't think is a very good mechanic to introduce. Mining works n a random bases for a few reasons.
1. it is in the player's control to influence it
Proper mining techniques can have radical shifts in your efficiency, making HOW you mine important and part of the game.
2. It is always amortized over the long term. With so many blocks being managed, the deviation from the norm is fairl minor. I have done the math. Even the deviation on finding diamonds is fairly tight. Its random enough to be unpredicatable and exciting, but controlled enough to be balanced.
This would not share that property, since you have a very small set of instnaces of this random chance, each with an individually large impact. Hence, if you are trying to get benefit from this, you have to pretty much pray to the mining gods to bless you, since while the long-term trend may be positive, the short term trend, where most of the gameplay would occur, is all over the place.
Case 5: repairing as Notch proposes
You introduce a positive gain from the repair, so .4+.4 = 1. This give you a 25% increase in effective durability, making it worthwhile to do. However, you need a constant supply of new picks to get the benefit, so it does not spiral out of control, and represents a nice steady increase in efficiency.
Now I anticipate you will ignore all of my math and go on beleiving whatever you will.