I never heard of there being any fees to edit any of the morrowind games, any of the fallout games, any of the command and conquers, homeworld, half life and its ilk, etc, etc.
Go ask the makers of Morrowind how much money it costs to get a look at their source code and see what they tell you.
I'm serious about this. Almost nobody does that. It's incredibly generous of Mojang to offer it - either for a small fee OR for free.
Not seeing the raw source code doesn't prevent you from modding the game. People are modding now without access to the source. Seeing the source code just makes it easier.
I like how you ignore a vital part of that: if I buy the source code from, say, valve, I can also develop my own game from that. Majong still owns the rights in this case, and I can't make boo diddly off of it.
Edit: let me make it simple: show me an analogue to this case, where you buy the source code but cannot make a product off of it.
Editx2: also, why pay to get the source code to improve their game so they make more money? Of course they should release tools to make modding easier! It helps their sales. Christ you people would probably pay to have someone to kick you in the nads and thank then for the effort. Truly one is born every minute, and two to take them.
I like how you ignore a vital part of that: if I buy the source code from, say, valve, I can also develop my own game from that. Majong still owns the rights in this case, and I can't make boo diddly off of it.
It didn't seem like that's what you said in the original post but fair enough. I'm not trying to ignore anyone or score cheap points.
If that's what you meant:
Edit: let me make it simple: show me an analogue to this case, where you buy the source code but cannot make a product off of it.
Valve is actually a great example. They license their engine. It costs an amazingly large amount of money. I wouldn't pretend to know what it is - like, millions. Only major game companies can really afford to do it.
Mojang offering to give some dude a peek at their code for a small fee isn't really even a comparable situation.
I will agree with you that keeping the rights to incorporate mods made by people who see the code is off-putting. I might or might not agree to that. I dunno - I'm not a modder.
But then -- you are still free to implement a mod the old-fashioned way without signing any licenses, paying any fees, or seeing any source code.
Editx2: also, why pay to get the source code to improve their game so they make more money? Of course they should release tools to make modding easier! It helps their sales. Christ you people would probably pay to have someone to kick you in the nads and thank then for the effort. Truly one is born every minute, and two to take them.
Hey, I'm not being rude to you. I don't see why you're being so hostile.
What dissapoints me is that people who should be working on minecraft are given "other projects". Surely minecraft, as the major earning product, should be the priority.
It's like having one of those chinese carnival dragons and telling the guys at the back end to go make coffee, leaving the dragon to drag its ass around and mess up the carnival.
It's like having one of those chinese carnival dragons and telling the guys at the back end to go make coffee, leaving the dragon to drag its ass around and mess up the carnival.
I will agree with you that keeping the rights to incorporate mods made by people who see the code is off-putting.
We're in agreement then.
As far as the source code, I don't know what the value of Notch's source is. I was just doing a binary comparison of pay vs free. I'm ignorant though of how much the source for minecraft should cost, when compared to say, the source engine or the unreal engines. I'm going to assume that all things considered, it should be at least an order of magnitude less, considering their respective capabilities.
Quote from kitchen666 »
Hey, I'm not being rude to you. I don't see why you're being so hostile.
I'm sorry about my tone, you have been very civil. To be honest, it was more directed at those who assault any dissenters to notch's actions.
This can be argued in many ways, but when it comes right down to it yes, it is a privilege. In absolutely no stretch of the imagination is it a right.
I question the orientation of your moral compass. I fear it may be getting interference from your lower intestinal walls. In what strange universe is receiving what you pay for a privilege, as opposed to a right? In what twisted twilight zone does voicing an opinion about a product void your license to use it?
You really want to compare this http://source.valvesoftware.com/ with the minecraft source? I don't think you're going to be close with a few orders of magnitude.
Their SDK is free btw.
I think you need to read the rest of the quote chain to see how we arrived at that point.
Quote from Space_Butler »
Quote from Drunkturtle »
This can be argued in many ways, but when it comes right down to it yes, it is a privilege. In absolutely no stretch of the imagination is it a right.
I question the orientation of your moral compass. I fear it may be getting interference from your lower intestinal walls. In what strange universe is receiving what you pay for a privilege, as opposed to a right? In what twisted twilight zone does voicing an opinion about a product void your license to use it?
Not to boil it down to a dichotomy, but I see two groups here:
Two guys order a cheese pizza, and the chef invites them to the back to watch the process unfold. He then tells them that they can use his kitchen to make pizza, but they have to pay for the place to do it and provide their own ingredients. Also he reserves the right to take any pizza they make and sell it to other customers, and they are not entitled to any profit from it.
The first guy thinks this is a sour deal, and tries to negotiate terms that would either allow free use of the kitchen, or that they get control of how their pizza gets used.
The second tells him to shut up, and that he should feel privileged that the chef had the beneficence to grace them with this creation and allow them a peek at his workspace. He reminds the first that going to a restaurant is a privilege and not a right, and that the chef can decide at any time to drop his pants and take a load right on their table if he so pleased. After all, he is the chef, and you have paid him to take a look into his genius, to marvel at the wonders he weaves. It is his restaurant, his building on his land, and that if the first guy doesn't like it he can leave. The second guy wonders where the first got the absolute gall to question the actions of the glorious chef.
I look at Minecraft like I do any other pre-order for a game, except Notch was nice enough to let me play-test it for him as its being developed.
That's a good attitude, although I actually think of it as quite the opposite. I payed for the game as-it-was, because I liked it when I saw it. I literally didn't even realize that I was buying into a pre-release version when I made the decision to buy it.
Changes and updates just feel like an added bonus, and are certainly worth more than the $15 I paid for the thing.
I do understand disappointment and annoyance from some people -- when something breaks that they liked, or when they learn that something they were looking forward to isn't gonna happen. It's just the rage that I don't get. It seems silly.
Not to sound like an ass about it, but i've honestly come to expect NOTHING from updates. Not because they lack substance when they do happen, but because if I expect nothing and get nothing, then I don't feel let down. Whereas if something awesome happens in the update, I get to be excited about it. By lowering my expectations, I get to enjoy the game more.
I don't think its so much the updates being bad (or good) that make people rage, I think its more of the people hyping themselves up only to be let down by a lackluster update that makes people rage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. all mammals produce milk
2. all mammals are covered in hair
I don't think its so much the updates being bad (or good) that make people rage, I think its more of the people hyping themselves up only to be let down by a lackluster update that makes people rage.
And the people who bought into Notch's original promises for the game. I've come to expect more bugs, and very few bug fixes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
I am a little disappointed in Notch. I think he should be focused on making modding as simple and accessible as possible. I understand that he wants to protect his creation, and thats fine, but my feeling is that the easier and more accessible modding is to people, the longer lifespan minecraft gets.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Minecraftios the only cereal with delicious marshmallow creepers that EXPLODE in your mouth!
I think so. But to me it's a small point. When it comes down to it - the source is owned by Mojang. It belongs to them. They can make whatever terms they like regarding who gets to see it and under what circumstances.
If the terms seem bad to people, they certainly shouldn't sign an agreement.
On the other hand, I have the impression that modders are largely hobbyists. Am I wrong about that? I actually don't use mods very much with minecraft. I'm not so sure that this agreement is unfair to a dedicated hobbyist who just wants to do some interesting things to expand minecraft.
I'm sorry about my tone, you have been very civil. To be honest, it was more directed at those who assault any dissenters to notch's actions.
It is No Big Deal. Not any of it. People on both sides could stand to relax a bit.
Two guys order a cheese pizza, and the chef invites them to the back to watch the process unfold. He then tells them that they can use his kitchen to make pizza, but they have to pay for the place to do it and provide their own ingredients. Also he reserves the right to take any pizza they make and sell it to other customers, and they are not entitled to any profit from it.
The first guy thinks this is a sour deal, and tries to negotiate terms that would either allow free use of the kitchen, or that they get control of how their pizza gets used.
The second tells him to shut up, and that he should feel privileged that the chef had the beneficence to grace them with this creation and allow them a peek at his workspace. He reminds the first that going to a restaurant is a privilege and not a right, and that the chef can decide at any time to drop his pants and take a load right on their table if he so pleased. After all, he is the chef, and you have paid him to take a look into his genius, to marvel at the wonders he weaves. It is his restaurant, his building on his land, and that if the first guy doesn't like it he can leave. The second guy wonders where the first got the absolute gall to question the actions of the glorious chef.
Hah!
Like all dichotomies though, I could rewrite that to make the first guy seem like the bad guy and the second guy the reasonable one.
I'd like make it a trichotomy:
The third guy realizes that he doesn't need to make pizza in that kitchen, or with that chef. He can buy flour, yeast, tomatoes, garlic, and cheese at the store.
Not to boil it down to a dichotomy, but I see two groups here:
Two guys order a cheese pizza, and the chef invites them to the back to watch the process unfold. He then tells them that they can use his kitchen to make pizza, but they have to pay for the place to do it and provide their own ingredients. Also he reserves the right to take any pizza they make and sell it to other customers, and they are not entitled to any profit from it.
The first guy thinks this is a sour deal, and tries to negotiate terms that would either allow free use of the kitchen, or that they get control of how their pizza gets used.
The second tells him to shut up, and that he should feel privileged that the chef had the beneficence to grace them with this creation and allow them a peek at his workspace. He reminds the first that going to a restaurant is a privilege and not a right, and that the chef can decide at any time to drop his pants and take a load right on their table if he so pleased. After all, he is the chef, and you have paid him to take a look into his genius, to marvel at the wonders he weaves. It is his restaurant, his building on his land, and that if the first guy doesn't like it he can leave. The second guy wonders where the first got the absolute gall to question the actions of the glorious chef.
Forgive me, Kuat, but I think you have missed some of the sub-conversation here. This has moved away from the handling of modding and is about the playing of minecraft in general, starting roughly at:
Quote from Drunkturtle »
You don't have any right to play this game and you certainly don't have any right to demand something of Notch. This game is a privilege, nothing more.
Emphasis mine.
So, I think a more fitting analogy would be along these lines.
Two men go into a pizza shop, and they order a supreme pizza. The chef warns them that this is a new recipe, not yet perfected, and he may tweak it a bit. When the pizza comes out, it is a pepperoni pizza.
The first man is upset. He ordered a supreme, and while he was willing to accept that the chef was experimenting, a pepperoni is definitely not acceptable, when the menu promised that supreme pizza would be made with such things as peppers, sausage, onions and olives.
The second man is upset with the first. He argues that they are lucky even to receive pepperoni on the pizza, that the chef could have, at any time, thrown the half-assembled pizza onto a tray and served it to them raw, and they should be grateful to even be allowed on the property of the pizza shop.
In this case, the second man goes on to argue that the first man, being unsatisfied with the situation, does not even have the right to eat the pizza he already paid for. This is the most hotly debated point in this sub-conversation.
Wait, didn't Notch just say that modders won't have to pay anything but that Mojang reserves the right to incorporate the mod into the game?
Policies will change and until the game is fully released, don't go nuts on "ideas" or "potential" policies. Actually, it's beta, don't expect anything and you'll sleep soundly tonight. I feel that some people are just never happy with what they have and always want more and more... Don't get me wrong, I am not a Notch lover boy or anything but if you're just a tad rational, it aint hard to see that we're still in devellopement here. So why go all out and voice an emo thread about a project that is still in motion?
My point is... Notch never said: "This is officially how it's going to be guys!". He specifically said that it was a brainstorm.
Wait, didn't Notch just say that modders won't have to pay anything but that Mojang reserves the right to incorporate the mod into the game?
Policies will change and until the game is fully released, don't go nuts on "ideas" or "potential" policies. Actually, it's beta, don't expect anything and you'll sleep soundly tonight. I feel that some people are just never happy with what they have and always want more and more... Don't get me wrong, I am not a Notch lover boy or anything but if you're just a tad rational, it aint hard to see that we're still in devellopement here. So why go all out and voice an emo thread about a project that is still in motion?
My point is... Notch never said: "This is officially how it's going to be guys!". He specifically said that it was a brainstorm.
Please read the rest of the conversation in here, then re-read your post. The conversation has moved from that a while ago.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
I don't think its so much the updates being bad (or good) that make people rage, I think its more of the people hyping themselves up only to be let down by a lackluster update that makes people rage.
And the people who bought into Notch's original promises for the game. I've come to expect more bugs, and very few bug fixes.
Out of curiosity, what were his original promises for the game? I only bought the game recently (1.4) and am very content with the content, so to say, every update being like a bonus for me. Though I can imagine it might've been different if I had bought it in an earlier state of developement, expecting different things based on some promises.
Some of the things I was more interested in were Dragons, NPC villages, Some background story (Could be completely ignored if you didn't want to do it, or you could do some quests for the story), adventure mode, and survival being "too hard." (The last one comes from the about section on Minecraft.net)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Some of the things I was more interested in were Dragons, NPC villages, Some background story (Could be completely ignored if you didn't want to do it, or you could do some quests for the story), adventure mode, and survival being "too hard." (The last one comes from the about section on Minecraft.net)
Ah, ok. Are there any actual quotes from Notch about these things? Not to question you, I'm only interested in minecraft history, sort of.
Some of the things I was more interested in were Dragons, NPC villages, Some background story (Could be completely ignored if you didn't want to do it, or you could do some quests for the story), adventure mode, and survival being "too hard." (The last one comes from the about section on Minecraft.net)
Ah, ok. Are there any actual quotes from Notch about these things? Not to question you, I'm only interested in minecraft history, sort of.
I know these things have at least been mentioned in passing on blogs and twitter feeds. This is actually what I'm talking about when I bring up how the agile dev process may actually hurt the way the community perceives a company.
In a traditional company these things would be talked about behind closed doors under the gaze of some Very Serious Men in Suits. The products get developed in relative secrecy, and most people don't have any idea what the final product will look like.
Mojang pretty much just throws tons of ideas out there, and goes with the ideas that stick.
Personally, I like that approach. I think it makes a game that feels like the product of a group of slacker-nerds like me.
But I can see why people might find it frustrating to get their hopes up about some specific things. I guess there's all kinds of people in the world.
I just read his idea for mod api.
I was apalled.
That, is something I'd expect from EA or Activision, no, even they wouldn't do that.
That is the most horrible thing I have ever seen any company think of, a way to punish people who try to improve minecraft.
I am sorry, but mojang.. even though you cancelled that, that is horrible.
It's not an API - his idea is something that would be in place of an API, because - as he said - an API that worked properly wouldn't be able to please everyone due to the variety of modding tools and coding people have used to make their mods.
"The most horrible thing". Really? Have you been completely oblivious to game development in general?
How does it punish modders? After all, the modding community as it stands will not go away.
I like how you ignore a vital part of that: if I buy the source code from, say, valve, I can also develop my own game from that. Majong still owns the rights in this case, and I can't make boo diddly off of it.
Edit: let me make it simple: show me an analogue to this case, where you buy the source code but cannot make a product off of it.
Editx2: also, why pay to get the source code to improve their game so they make more money? Of course they should release tools to make modding easier! It helps their sales. Christ you people would probably pay to have someone to kick you in the nads and thank then for the effort. Truly one is born every minute, and two to take them.
It didn't seem like that's what you said in the original post but fair enough. I'm not trying to ignore anyone or score cheap points.
If that's what you meant:
Valve is actually a great example. They license their engine. It costs an amazingly large amount of money. I wouldn't pretend to know what it is - like, millions. Only major game companies can really afford to do it.
Mojang offering to give some dude a peek at their code for a small fee isn't really even a comparable situation.
I will agree with you that keeping the rights to incorporate mods made by people who see the code is off-putting. I might or might not agree to that. I dunno - I'm not a modder.
But then -- you are still free to implement a mod the old-fashioned way without signing any licenses, paying any fees, or seeing any source code.
Right? Or did I misunderstand you again?
Hey, I'm not being rude to you. I don't see why you're being so hostile.
Genius. I'm quoting this.
Steam ... SergeantLeper
We're in agreement then.
As far as the source code, I don't know what the value of Notch's source is. I was just doing a binary comparison of pay vs free. I'm ignorant though of how much the source for minecraft should cost, when compared to say, the source engine or the unreal engines. I'm going to assume that all things considered, it should be at least an order of magnitude less, considering their respective capabilities.
I'm sorry about my tone, you have been very civil. To be honest, it was more directed at those who assault any dissenters to notch's actions.
I question the orientation of your moral compass. I fear it may be getting interference from your lower intestinal walls. In what strange universe is receiving what you pay for a privilege, as opposed to a right? In what twisted twilight zone does voicing an opinion about a product void your license to use it?
I think you need to read the rest of the quote chain to see how we arrived at that point.
Not to boil it down to a dichotomy, but I see two groups here:
Two guys order a cheese pizza, and the chef invites them to the back to watch the process unfold. He then tells them that they can use his kitchen to make pizza, but they have to pay for the place to do it and provide their own ingredients. Also he reserves the right to take any pizza they make and sell it to other customers, and they are not entitled to any profit from it.
The first guy thinks this is a sour deal, and tries to negotiate terms that would either allow free use of the kitchen, or that they get control of how their pizza gets used.
The second tells him to shut up, and that he should feel privileged that the chef had the beneficence to grace them with this creation and allow them a peek at his workspace. He reminds the first that going to a restaurant is a privilege and not a right, and that the chef can decide at any time to drop his pants and take a load right on their table if he so pleased. After all, he is the chef, and you have paid him to take a look into his genius, to marvel at the wonders he weaves. It is his restaurant, his building on his land, and that if the first guy doesn't like it he can leave. The second guy wonders where the first got the absolute gall to question the actions of the glorious chef.
Not to sound like an ass about it, but i've honestly come to expect NOTHING from updates. Not because they lack substance when they do happen, but because if I expect nothing and get nothing, then I don't feel let down. Whereas if something awesome happens in the update, I get to be excited about it. By lowering my expectations, I get to enjoy the game more.
I don't think its so much the updates being bad (or good) that make people rage, I think its more of the people hyping themselves up only to be let down by a lackluster update that makes people rage.
2. all mammals are covered in hair
conclusion: coconuts are mammals
Heck, that's basically my life philosophy boiled down to a sentence.
Yeah, that's certainly at least a major part of it.
And the people who bought into Notch's original promises for the game. I've come to expect more bugs, and very few bug fixes.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Punch a box today!
I think so. But to me it's a small point. When it comes down to it - the source is owned by Mojang. It belongs to them. They can make whatever terms they like regarding who gets to see it and under what circumstances.
If the terms seem bad to people, they certainly shouldn't sign an agreement.
On the other hand, I have the impression that modders are largely hobbyists. Am I wrong about that? I actually don't use mods very much with minecraft. I'm not so sure that this agreement is unfair to a dedicated hobbyist who just wants to do some interesting things to expand minecraft.
It is No Big Deal. Not any of it. People on both sides could stand to relax a bit.
Hah!
Like all dichotomies though, I could rewrite that to make the first guy seem like the bad guy and the second guy the reasonable one.
I'd like make it a trichotomy:
The third guy realizes that he doesn't need to make pizza in that kitchen, or with that chef. He can buy flour, yeast, tomatoes, garlic, and cheese at the store.
Forgive me, Kuat, but I think you have missed some of the sub-conversation here. This has moved away from the handling of modding and is about the playing of minecraft in general, starting roughly at:
Emphasis mine.
So, I think a more fitting analogy would be along these lines.
Two men go into a pizza shop, and they order a supreme pizza. The chef warns them that this is a new recipe, not yet perfected, and he may tweak it a bit. When the pizza comes out, it is a pepperoni pizza.
The first man is upset. He ordered a supreme, and while he was willing to accept that the chef was experimenting, a pepperoni is definitely not acceptable, when the menu promised that supreme pizza would be made with such things as peppers, sausage, onions and olives.
The second man is upset with the first. He argues that they are lucky even to receive pepperoni on the pizza, that the chef could have, at any time, thrown the half-assembled pizza onto a tray and served it to them raw, and they should be grateful to even be allowed on the property of the pizza shop.
In this case, the second man goes on to argue that the first man, being unsatisfied with the situation, does not even have the right to eat the pizza he already paid for. This is the most hotly debated point in this sub-conversation.
Policies will change and until the game is fully released, don't go nuts on "ideas" or "potential" policies. Actually, it's beta, don't expect anything and you'll sleep soundly tonight. I feel that some people are just never happy with what they have and always want more and more... Don't get me wrong, I am not a Notch lover boy or anything but if you're just a tad rational, it aint hard to see that we're still in devellopement here. So why go all out and voice an emo thread about a project that is still in motion?
My point is... Notch never said: "This is officially how it's going to be guys!". He specifically said that it was a brainstorm.
Please read the rest of the conversation in here, then re-read your post. The conversation has moved from that a while ago.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Some of the things I was more interested in were Dragons, NPC villages, Some background story (Could be completely ignored if you didn't want to do it, or you could do some quests for the story), adventure mode, and survival being "too hard." (The last one comes from the about section on Minecraft.net)
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
He has stated, either on his twitter or the word of Notch, all of these.
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Zombie_Siege
This one is pending deletion, because they decided to not do it I guess.
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Adventure
No progress has been made/said on this.
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Capture_the_Flag
This seems to have died a long time ago too.
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Mobs#Confirmed_Future_Mobs
No mention of any of these for a while either. Notch tried a giant, but with the current pathfinding it didn't work.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
I know these things have at least been mentioned in passing on blogs and twitter feeds. This is actually what I'm talking about when I bring up how the agile dev process may actually hurt the way the community perceives a company.
In a traditional company these things would be talked about behind closed doors under the gaze of some Very Serious Men in Suits. The products get developed in relative secrecy, and most people don't have any idea what the final product will look like.
Mojang pretty much just throws tons of ideas out there, and goes with the ideas that stick.
Personally, I like that approach. I think it makes a game that feels like the product of a group of slacker-nerds like me.
But I can see why people might find it frustrating to get their hopes up about some specific things. I guess there's all kinds of people in the world.
It's not an API - his idea is something that would be in place of an API, because - as he said - an API that worked properly wouldn't be able to please everyone due to the variety of modding tools and coding people have used to make their mods.
"The most horrible thing". Really? Have you been completely oblivious to game development in general?
How does it punish modders? After all, the modding community as it stands will not go away.