They mentioned having a reddit post too, but there was some sort of celebratory (almost necroposting) comment the author had- in shock his/her idea had been seemingly added to the game. It was super identical like coincidence on steroids to the addition mojang made. The post was from 2014 too. I made a long comment on it celebrating the chance it was looked at with said author- just 2 weeks ago. Now in my posts- it is gone and isn't in the suggestions thread anywhere.
However- I think mojang may want people to not know they are observing these ideas, because by them anonymously viewing, there is no controversial bias or hysteria in the thread. Shoot i was one of Maria's (@MiaLem_n parrot creating dev at mojang) first hundred followers and I'd be willing to tweet her and see if she would admit to viewing the suggestion, but if there is an agenda to remain anonymous, surely i wont receive an answer.
There is no reason to believe there would be controversial bias or hysteria here. Especially since the mods are more than likely to shut it down.
It's only a little surprising that Maria saw that person's 2014 Reddit thread, unless it was popular, in which case it'd be inevitable.
You'd also not receive an answer if she didn't see you, didn't care, didn't want to answer you, or had limited time. That is not evidence of any sort of "agenda."
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Well perhaps it was a coincidence or it was the work of Dinnerbone(whom I likely cannot contact because of popularity) as this idea sounds like something he started.
Sorry huge image
I think this might need a section for critics about commonly posted ideas, namely that it doesn't matter if an idea is suggested often or if it is often disliked, unless a similar thread has been posted on within 30 days (and it should be reported at that point).
It kind of falls under "judge an idea by its own merit" guideline but it occurs often enough to maybe warrant a separate section with a reminder that a post only saying "Oh look, THIS idea again" is a non-contributing post and is warnable as spam.
Also the fact that even if you post additional criticism for the idea saying an idea is commonly suggested is probably the worst type of unhelpful non-criticism that exists in this section. It means nothing and helps nobody.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
People should search, period. That said, once a thread is posted saying "This thread has been posted 100 times and everyone always hates it" isn't helpful feedback in the slightest. I'm not sure exactly how it should be phrased by regular users so any feedback would be welcome.
Right now I'm leaning towards it just being explained here and having users just tell people to check out this thread rather than be specific about individual guidelines they aren't following. After all they are only guidelines, not set rules. People saying "You didn't do thing X that the sticky said" instead of giving real feedback was half of the problem of the previous guide.
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Well perhaps it was a coincidence or it was the work of Dinnerbone(whom I likely cannot contact because of popularity) as this idea sounds like something he started.
Sorry huge image
The chances of it being a coincidence are virtually and practically 1.
This goes into the law of very big numbers. There are SOOO many posters making SOOOO many threads that the chances that anything mojang does by now to be unique is close enough to 0 to be effectively 0.
There are 96,065 threads on the suggestion forum (as of this writing). If we were to use this and I were to consider a fruit; there is a near-guarantee that any fruit I choose (including eccentric ones like starfruit and kumquat) would have a hit with at least one of those 96K other opinions.
There's literally a 1 in 96066 chance that I'd have a unique answer. Those aren't good odds.
What are the chances that mojang made a choice that was a near-exact implementation of a suggestion here? 99.9989%.
Along with what Yoshi said, great minds think alike meaning what has been thought up once has been thought up before, but those who take action towards these thoughts claim the glory.
Doesn't matter if someone else thought of an idea first but someone else claimed the "glory" for having the idea. That other person just strived a bit harder to get there.
I think it should be added to this list that people keep in mind that this is a creative writing section, not an actual place to suggest things to Mojang, but the attitude of responses should stay as if the idea was going to be added to Minecraft.
To me, this whole entire section is a "what if this was added" section where people can ponder these "what if"s.
It is also about improving one's suggestions and creative thinking in my own opinion. Some coming into this section
with hopes that Mojang will actually add your suggestion is a bit over the top, and you set your self up for false hopes,
It should at least be noted that Mojang doesn't look at these (well once in a blue moon they have), and/or this isn't the official idea suggestion forum for
I think it should be added to this list that people keep in mind that this is a creative writing section, not an actual place to suggest things to Mojang, but the attitude of responses should stay as if the idea was going to be added to Minecraft.
To me, this whole entire section is a "what if this was added" section where people can ponder these "what if"s.
It is also about improving one's suggestions and creative thinking in my own opinion. Some coming into this section
with hopes that Mojang will actually add your suggestion is a bit over the top, and you set your self up for false hopes,
It should at least be noted that Mojang doesn't look at these (well once in a blue moon they have), and/or this isn't the official idea suggestion forum for
Mojang,
Guideline #4 does mention that this section is for presenting ideas to fellow forum users, not necessarily to Mojang.
*stills sees goofy joke threads and sockpuppet accounts*
Okay, I guess the quality control comes later? There's still nothing in the guide that helps build the quality of a suggestion. I mean it does mention details and the 5 W's, but it's still very generic and crunched down. For example, a suggestion should have non-cringe grammar, and not have spelling that doesn't look like you punched your keyboard in the face and pressed "Post Reply".
Remember, these are guidelines; not rules. There is nothing that says anyone has to read it. There's probably a lot of cockiness of "man, I don't need that, I have the perfect sammich suggestion; just post it and move on!"
You can't quality control anyone without forcing them to do something that isn't intended as a rule. Which goes into this thing; it's either a rule or it isn't. If it isn't, it shouldn't be (en)forced; if it is, it's no longer a guideline.
With that said; "Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language" doesn't really cut it. There is such a thing as proofreading; and I've seen legitimate posts from people with a poor understanding of English that are FAR MORE considerate of the language and far more legible than those that nurse this broken and dead crutch.
IN OTHER WORDS: people can see the difference between ESL and ignorantly butchering the language.
With that said; "Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language" doesn't really cut it. There is such a thing as proofreading; and I've seen legitimate posts from people with a poor understanding of English that are FAR MORE considerate of the language and far more legible than those that nurse this broken and dead crutch.
IN OTHER WORDS: people can see the difference between ESL and ignorantly butchering the language.
This genuinely makes me wonder if you've ever tried to learn a language.
It's pretty hard.
The fact that you've seen better from people who are also bad at English isn't really a factor, because surprisingly, there are a lot of different people in the world with a lot of different backgrounds. How easily somebody picks up English can be very dependent on which language they speak natively, when they picked it up, how old they are and so on. It's not a case of "You sir have been speaking for X amount of time therefore I expect better! Just look at these other posters!"
I don't even see where it's a factor so long as the post is legible (which it almost always is). And if it is genuinely hard to read, you can correct the mistakes instead of complaining they've "ignorantly butchered the language" and clearly just haven't proofread.
I can tolerate bad spelling and grammar, I'm not a native English speaker myself, so I know grammar can be pretty tricky sometimes, but only if the author doesn't mind it when people point out they're spelling like a chimpanzee with leprosy. If they actively ask if any mistakes that they make can be pointed out, and they fix those mistakes and try to learn to write better, I have no problem in doing some extra effort as well, and try to comprehend their posts.
That said, straight up saying "your grammar is bad, improve it" doesn't help anyone and should be considered spam. It's not constructive in any way and only comes over as unnecessarily hostile. It's okay to point out spelling errors, just be civil about it, even if someone is a repeat offender.
This genuinely makes me wonder if you've ever tried to learn a language.
It's pretty hard.
The fact that you've seen better from people who are also bad at English isn't really a factor, because surprisingly, there are a lot of different people in the world with a lot of different backgrounds. How easily somebody picks up English can be very dependent on which language they speak natively, when they picked it up, how old they are and so on. It's not a case of "You sir have been speaking for X amount of time therefore I expect better! Just look at these other posters!"
I don't even see where it's a factor so long as the post is legible (which it almost always is). And if it is genuinely hard to read, you can correct the mistakes instead of complaining they've "ignorantly butchered the language" and clearly just haven't proofread.
English is tough.
I agree with this. English isn't easy for many reason, such as there being exceptions to most rules - not to mention the amount of contradictions in words and terminology. And yeah, for this reason, people shouldn't really be judged harshly for struggling with English. A simple and polite correction that explains how they could improve a certain sentence type or appropriate wording is fine, they can learn from that.
However, there is the point of posters being lazy or careless with their writing. And honestly, if the reader does speak English as their first language, it really isn't that hard to tell the difference between a poster who is struggling with the language and one that is just being lazy or careless. Sometimes the differences are subtle, but most of the times the difference is rather obvious. I personally don't appreciate reading a suggestion from someone who has been lazy or careless with their writing, I find it a little disrespectful to other users who actually put an effort in to the work they do. For me, a suggestion isn't even worth my time to read if the actual author of the thread hasn't even been bothered to give a damn about its legibility.
This genuinely makes me wonder if you've ever tried to learn a language.
It's pretty hard.
Yes, it's pretty hard. But there's a lot of respect I have for the language and a lot of earnest thought going into making my message the message and not the butchery of their language. I go out of my way to use ONLY what I know and bounce what I have to say off of someone with a better grasp of the language than myself to make sure that what I mean is what is said.
The fact that you've seen better from people who are also bad at English isn't really a factor, because surprisingly, there are a lot of different people in the world with a lot of different backgrounds. How easily somebody picks up English can be very dependent on which language they speak natively, when they picked it up, how old they are and so on. It's not a case of "You sir have been speaking for X amount of time therefore I expect better! Just look at these other posters!"
What I'm saying here, if you don't mind me dispelling the strawman, is that people that are genuinely interested in communicating in a non-primary language tend to take care of whatever language they're communicating in. They take extra effort to make sure the discussion is the core point of their statement; not slapping a "ESL, enjoy my bad grammar because I'm too good to proofread."
I don't even see where it's a factor so long as the post is legible (which it almost always is). And if it is genuinely hard to read, you can correct the mistakes instead of complaining they've "ignorantly butchered the language" and clearly just haven't proofread.
The people I've seen butcher English the most are native speakers. The ones that should and DO know better; but they're lazy and pop out a lame cop out reason why their laziness should be absolved. So they say "sry lulz, english is my 2nd lang rofl".
If someone genuinely tries and their English isn't impeccable... And? No one ever said it should be. People that DO have English as a primary language have 10+ years of compulsory education to perfect it; and that is ignoring secondary education. People that are ESL don't "ignorantly butcher" anything. They earnestly hone it and carve it; and make mistakes that can be corrected for. The people that DO "ignorantly butcher the language" are simply those that don't care.
Yes, it's pretty hard. But there's a lot of respect I have for the language and a lot of earnest thought going into making my message the message and not the butchery of their language. I go out of my way to use ONLY what I know and bounce what I have to say off of someone with a better grasp of the language than myself to make sure that what I mean is what is said.
The Suggestions section is not about respecting the glorious English language, the Suggestions section is about suggestions, and if someone screws up their grammar I don't especially care.
What I'm saying here, if you don't mind me dispelling the strawman,
Woah there, I'll have you know I absolutely mind you dispelling my absolutely intentional strawman!
is that people that are genuinely interested in communicating in a non-primary language tend to take care of whatever language they're communicating in. They take extra effort to make sure the discussion is the core point of their statement; not slapping a "ESL, enjoy my bad grammar because I'm too good to proofread."
Since when did proofreading become the be all and end all of fixing broken English?
Right, never. Just because the English is poor doesn't mean they didn't proofread. For real.
The people I've seen butcher English the most are native speakers. The ones that should and DO know better; but they're lazy and pop out a lame cop out reason why their laziness should be absolved. So they say "sry lulz, english is my 2nd lang rofl".
We're not talking about native English speakers. We're talking about people who probably aren't native English speakers who you accuse of using a 'crutch'. We're talking about people who ignorantly butcher the language, i.e. unknowingly, right?
Hell, just scroll up to where you say "people that are genuinely interested in communicating in a non-primary language tend to take care of whatever language they're communicating in".
If someone genuinely tries and their English isn't impeccable... And? No one ever said it should be.
You said it should be, because you're the suggestions police and you get to decide if someone tried to English hard enough. Which means that how hard they actually tried isn't a factor, just your perception. At this point it is completely lost on me what point you are trying to make that is relevant to this guide. Do you want a section titled "Type good"?
People that DO have English as a primary language have 10+ years of compulsory education to perfect it;
Yes, I daresay I have completed 10+ years of compulsory education.
and that is ignoring secondary education. People that are ESL don't "ignorantly butcher" anything. They earnestly hone it and carve it; and make mistakes that can be corrected for. The people that DO "ignorantly butcher the language" are simply those that don't care.
If you actually think this is how people who speak English non-natively act I don't think you've ever met one. They screw up all the time, which is absolutely expected. When they make forum posts, they aren't perfect and you can't pin them down as simply not trying because the post isn't 'earnestly honed and carved'.
So I'm not sure what you're trying to get across. Where do you draw the line between "making mistakes that can be corrected for" and "ignorantly butchering the language"? So far, you don't. This is important, nuance and stuff.
That's the point here. You don't draw a line. You complain about all of these people butchering our language, and then when somebody calls you out to say "hey maybe there English is just bad and they're practicing", you retort that you can tell the difference exactly. Of course, you don't explain how you do this, because you don't explain anything here.
You tell us there are the people trying and then there are the butchers. That's about it. You gave this massively exaggerated example earlier of how someone might claim that English is their second language, because that makes the entire situation seem much less blurry than it really is. Give us a real quote or something. I'm not even sure how this is on-topic anymore, the whole claim that this exists as a problem just seems exaggerated and manufactured in the first place.
tl;dr Where's your supporting evidence, Yoshi?
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*stills sees goofy joke threads and sockpuppet accounts*
Okay, I guess the quality control comes later? There's still nothing in the guide that helps build the quality of a suggestion. I mean it does mention details and the 5 W's, but it's still very generic and crunched down. For example, a suggestion should have non-cringe grammar, and not have spelling that doesn't look like you punched your keyboard in the face and pressed "Post Reply".
It's in the Rules. But only so far as a post can be understood. If you can understand what is being communicated, there's no issue, from what I can tell.
The Suggestions section is not about respecting the glorious English language, the Suggestions section is about suggestions, and if someone screws up their grammar I don't especially care.
I don't think anyone really does; unless it's to the point of unreadable. Something like a comma splice here or there isn't going to kill anyone. The big picture is the point of unreadable. I'm not really sure what the point of "readable/unreadable" is as that is purely subjective.
Woah there, I'll have you know I absolutely mind you dispelling my absolutely intentional strawman!
But it's so flimsy and rickety! Can I at least kick it and bat at it a few times?
Since when did proofreading become the be all and end all of fixing broken English?
Right, never. Just because the English is poor doesn't mean they didn't proofread. For real.
That is correct; and the issue I have isn't with people that proofread and screw up. It's with people that don't and say they do. We can all tell the difference.
We're not talking about native English speakers. We're talking about people who probably aren't native English speakers who you accuse of using a 'crutch'. We're talking about people who ignorantly butcher the language, i.e. unknowingly, right?
I'm talking about people that use a crutch to get out of proper forum protocol. I've played plenty of games with plenty of players who speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, Mandarin, Romanian, etc. and they will make small forgivable mistakes on more difficult syntax. That's fine and cool. The key is that they're understandable and I'm spending more time enjoying their company and less time trying to figure out what the hell they said.
You said it should be, because you're the suggestions police and you get to decide if someone tried to English hard enough. Which means that how hard they actually tried isn't a factor, just your perception. At this point it is completely lost on me what point you are trying to make that is relevant to this guide. Do you want a section titled "Type good"?
Oh, you do me too much honor. I don't frequent these forums enough to be the police of anything; let alone good taste. But yes, perceptions are everything. If I pose a math problem: 5+5, and someone answers 12, I'd perceive that as incorrect.
But there was a point somewhere; and I think it got lost in the mix. Oh, that's what happened, I conflated 2 points.
Point 1) People that are non-native speakers aren't necessarily bad at the language; but it's personally more forgivable if they are.
Point 2) Bad Grammar is bad; regardless of whatever bandaid excuse you put on it.
If you actually think this is how people who speak English non-natively act I don't think you've ever met one.
Your perception of my personal experience has no bearing on the discussion.
They screw up all the time, which is absolutely expected.
I screw up all the time; it's still absolutely expected.
That's the point here. You don't draw a line.
Ah yeah; I should go about doing that; that's also where difficulty arises. How do you draw a line in a generalized enough way that it'll fit in scope of this topic?
"type good" and "grammar good" aren't going to do anyone any favors; so it has to be something that can be easy to digest; and fits the theme of this guide.
That will take some time. I hope it won't take much and I don't want enforced conformity toward a single writing style. The 5 W's are a good starting point that's already been included. I'd probably hit that angle and run with it to see how well it'll work.
I'm a bit in between on this discussion of language. People should try their best speaking in the English language because this IS an English primary forum and always has been. Judging if someone put effort into their English is immensely subjective as well. Yes, sometimes you can sense when somebody is just being down right sloppy with their words and grammar, but who is to say that is because they are being lazy? I give people the benefit of the doubt because I think people would much prefer to try not looking like a fool than to be lazy and butcher sentences. If they are just being lazy, why post in the first place? They should know that having a well worded post or response will get them attention, and they should know that it is pointless to post otherwise. If they are being lazy just to be lazy, then I'd consider that trolling, which I will remind everyone is against the rules on this forum.
Now if someone is genuinely having issues with the English language it is usually because they are either really young, of another primary language, or both which mind I add is REALLY likely for members of this forum to be young. Was my grammar good when I was a lot younger, even up to say 6th grade? Is my English perfect today? I personally do not feel that anyone will ever perfect the English language because people make mistakes all the time. You cannot say that grammar mistakes are not made by adults as well.
Saying people of another primary language strive harder to speak and write better in English is partly correct. I know primary English speakers who even strive harder to speak and write better English. Making that generalization for all non-primary English speakers is like saying every snowflake is the same because they look the same. If you look closer though, those snowflakes are different and so is everyone else. Some people have harder times actually reading while others have issues comprehending. Some people may be fluent, but others may not. It is a matter of person, not a matter of what primary language you speak.
Now don't get me wrong. I still advocate for trying your earnest effort in making a well formulated and structured post with nice, readable English. In no ways am I saying that people get a pass to not try because "hey, English isn't my first" or "I'm too young and have not learned so much of English yet." The background of a person matters in how well you are able to communicate an idea or thought to others, and everyone here comes from a different background. Some people might have not went to good schools and never had a chance to get a proper English education, but that is never an excuse to try your hardest. As long as you strive for the betterment of yourself, I think that should be what is acceptable, not what others find acceptable because it is "hard to read" or "you didn't try". Pointing the finger isn't cool and you can never say for 100% certainty if someone tried or not. Sometimes it may be more clear than other times, but with 100% certainty, once cannot say someone else didn't try.
I think we need to chill the passion on the language discussion. We can keep the discussion going but we're moving towards it being more of a fight than a calm, rational discussion.
I'm not sure where I stand on the language issue. I'm actually going to take it up with people above my level to see what our total policy is with this.
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Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
I think we need to chill the passion on the language discussion. We can keep the discussion going but we're moving towards it being more of a fight than a calm, rational discussion.
I'm not sure where I stand on the language issue. I'm actually going to take it up with people above my level to see what our total policy is with this.
Yeah, I agree and that is why I took the middle grounds because I can see valid points on both sides. We should be more focusing on what really the issue is rather than badgering who is correct or not because I feel there is a lot of subjectiveness and obscurity on the topic.
There is no reason to believe there would be controversial bias or hysteria here. Especially since the mods are more than likely to shut it down.
It's only a little surprising that Maria saw that person's 2014 Reddit thread, unless it was popular, in which case it'd be inevitable.
You'd also not receive an answer if she didn't see you, didn't care, didn't want to answer you, or had limited time. That is not evidence of any sort of "agenda."
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Well perhaps it was a coincidence or it was the work of Dinnerbone(whom I likely cannot contact because of popularity) as this idea sounds like something he started.
Sorry huge image
I think this might need a section for critics about commonly posted ideas, namely that it doesn't matter if an idea is suggested often or if it is often disliked, unless a similar thread has been posted on within 30 days (and it should be reported at that point).
It kind of falls under "judge an idea by its own merit" guideline but it occurs often enough to maybe warrant a separate section with a reminder that a post only saying "Oh look, THIS idea again" is a non-contributing post and is warnable as spam.
Also the fact that even if you post additional criticism for the idea saying an idea is commonly suggested is probably the worst type of unhelpful non-criticism that exists in this section. It means nothing and helps nobody.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
People should search, period. That said, once a thread is posted saying "This thread has been posted 100 times and everyone always hates it" isn't helpful feedback in the slightest. I'm not sure exactly how it should be phrased by regular users so any feedback would be welcome.
Right now I'm leaning towards it just being explained here and having users just tell people to check out this thread rather than be specific about individual guidelines they aren't following. After all they are only guidelines, not set rules. People saying "You didn't do thing X that the sticky said" instead of giving real feedback was half of the problem of the previous guide.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
The chances of it being a coincidence are virtually and practically 1.
This goes into the law of very big numbers. There are SOOO many posters making SOOOO many threads that the chances that anything mojang does by now to be unique is close enough to 0 to be effectively 0.
There are 96,065 threads on the suggestion forum (as of this writing). If we were to use this and I were to consider a fruit; there is a near-guarantee that any fruit I choose (including eccentric ones like starfruit and kumquat) would have a hit with at least one of those 96K other opinions.
There's literally a 1 in 96066 chance that I'd have a unique answer. Those aren't good odds.
What are the chances that mojang made a choice that was a near-exact implementation of a suggestion here? 99.9989%.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Along with what Yoshi said, great minds think alike meaning what has been thought up once has been thought up before, but those who take action towards these thoughts claim the glory.
Doesn't matter if someone else thought of an idea first but someone else claimed the "glory" for having the idea. That other person just strived a bit harder to get there.
I think it should be added to this list that people keep in mind that this is a creative writing section, not an actual place to suggest things to Mojang, but the attitude of responses should stay as if the idea was going to be added to Minecraft.
To me, this whole entire section is a "what if this was added" section where people can ponder these "what if"s.
It is also about improving one's suggestions and creative thinking in my own opinion. Some coming into this section
with hopes that Mojang will actually add your suggestion is a bit over the top, and you set your self up for false hopes,
It should at least be noted that Mojang doesn't look at these (well once in a blue moon they have), and/or this isn't the official idea suggestion forum for
Mojang,
Guideline #4 does mention that this section is for presenting ideas to fellow forum users, not necessarily to Mojang.
- sunperp
Oh ok, thanks. Must have accidentally passed over that.
*scans forum*
*stills sees goofy joke threads and sockpuppet accounts*
Okay, I guess the quality control comes later? There's still nothing in the guide that helps build the quality of a suggestion. I mean it does mention details and the 5 W's, but it's still very generic and crunched down. For example, a suggestion should have non-cringe grammar, and not have spelling that doesn't look like you punched your keyboard in the face and pressed "Post Reply".
Remember, these are guidelines; not rules. There is nothing that says anyone has to read it. There's probably a lot of cockiness of "man, I don't need that, I have the perfect sammich suggestion; just post it and move on!"
You can't quality control anyone without forcing them to do something that isn't intended as a rule. Which goes into this thing; it's either a rule or it isn't. If it isn't, it shouldn't be (en)forced; if it is, it's no longer a guideline.
With that said; "Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language" doesn't really cut it. There is such a thing as proofreading; and I've seen legitimate posts from people with a poor understanding of English that are FAR MORE considerate of the language and far more legible than those that nurse this broken and dead crutch.
IN OTHER WORDS: people can see the difference between ESL and ignorantly butchering the language.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
This genuinely makes me wonder if you've ever tried to learn a language.
It's pretty hard.
The fact that you've seen better from people who are also bad at English isn't really a factor, because surprisingly, there are a lot of different people in the world with a lot of different backgrounds. How easily somebody picks up English can be very dependent on which language they speak natively, when they picked it up, how old they are and so on. It's not a case of "You sir have been speaking for X amount of time therefore I expect better! Just look at these other posters!"
I don't even see where it's a factor so long as the post is legible (which it almost always is). And if it is genuinely hard to read, you can correct the mistakes instead of complaining they've "ignorantly butchered the language" and clearly just haven't proofread.
English is tough.
I agree with this. English isn't easy for many reason, such as there being exceptions to most rules - not to mention the amount of contradictions in words and terminology. And yeah, for this reason, people shouldn't really be judged harshly for struggling with English. A simple and polite correction that explains how they could improve a certain sentence type or appropriate wording is fine, they can learn from that.
However, there is the point of posters being lazy or careless with their writing. And honestly, if the reader does speak English as their first language, it really isn't that hard to tell the difference between a poster who is struggling with the language and one that is just being lazy or careless. Sometimes the differences are subtle, but most of the times the difference is rather obvious. I personally don't appreciate reading a suggestion from someone who has been lazy or careless with their writing, I find it a little disrespectful to other users who actually put an effort in to the work they do. For me, a suggestion isn't even worth my time to read if the actual author of the thread hasn't even been bothered to give a damn about its legibility.
imo
Yes, it's pretty hard. But there's a lot of respect I have for the language and a lot of earnest thought going into making my message the message and not the butchery of their language. I go out of my way to use ONLY what I know and bounce what I have to say off of someone with a better grasp of the language than myself to make sure that what I mean is what is said.
What I'm saying here, if you don't mind me dispelling the strawman, is that people that are genuinely interested in communicating in a non-primary language tend to take care of whatever language they're communicating in. They take extra effort to make sure the discussion is the core point of their statement; not slapping a "ESL, enjoy my bad grammar because I'm too good to proofread."
The people I've seen butcher English the most are native speakers. The ones that should and DO know better; but they're lazy and pop out a lame cop out reason why their laziness should be absolved. So they say "sry lulz, english is my 2nd lang rofl".
If someone genuinely tries and their English isn't impeccable... And? No one ever said it should be. People that DO have English as a primary language have 10+ years of compulsory education to perfect it; and that is ignoring secondary education. People that are ESL don't "ignorantly butcher" anything. They earnestly hone it and carve it; and make mistakes that can be corrected for. The people that DO "ignorantly butcher the language" are simply those that don't care.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
The Suggestions section is not about respecting the glorious English language, the Suggestions section is about suggestions, and if someone screws up their grammar I don't especially care.
Woah there, I'll have you know I absolutely mind you dispelling my absolutely intentional strawman!
Since when did proofreading become the be all and end all of fixing broken English?
Right, never. Just because the English is poor doesn't mean they didn't proofread. For real.
We're not talking about native English speakers. We're talking about people who probably aren't native English speakers who you accuse of using a 'crutch'. We're talking about people who ignorantly butcher the language, i.e. unknowingly, right?
Hell, just scroll up to where you say "people that are genuinely interested in communicating in a non-primary language tend to take care of whatever language they're communicating in".
You said it should be, because you're the suggestions police and you get to decide if someone tried to English hard enough. Which means that how hard they actually tried isn't a factor, just your perception. At this point it is completely lost on me what point you are trying to make that is relevant to this guide. Do you want a section titled "Type good"?
Yes, I daresay I have completed 10+ years of compulsory education.
If you actually think this is how people who speak English non-natively act I don't think you've ever met one. They screw up all the time, which is absolutely expected. When they make forum posts, they aren't perfect and you can't pin them down as simply not trying because the post isn't 'earnestly honed and carved'.
So I'm not sure what you're trying to get across. Where do you draw the line between "making mistakes that can be corrected for" and "ignorantly butchering the language"? So far, you don't. This is important, nuance and stuff.
That's the point here. You don't draw a line. You complain about all of these people butchering our language, and then when somebody calls you out to say "hey maybe there English is just bad and they're practicing", you retort that you can tell the difference exactly. Of course, you don't explain how you do this, because you don't explain anything here.
You tell us there are the people trying and then there are the butchers. That's about it. You gave this massively exaggerated example earlier of how someone might claim that English is their second language, because that makes the entire situation seem much less blurry than it really is. Give us a real quote or something. I'm not even sure how this is on-topic anymore, the whole claim that this exists as a problem just seems exaggerated and manufactured in the first place.
tl;dr Where's your supporting evidence, Yoshi?
It's in the Rules. But only so far as a post can be understood. If you can understand what is being communicated, there's no issue, from what I can tell.
Quality control beyond a certain point doesn't work here.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
I don't think anyone really does; unless it's to the point of unreadable. Something like a comma splice here or there isn't going to kill anyone. The big picture is the point of unreadable. I'm not really sure what the point of "readable/unreadable" is as that is purely subjective.
But it's so flimsy and rickety! Can I at least kick it and bat at it a few times?
That is correct; and the issue I have isn't with people that proofread and screw up. It's with people that don't and say they do. We can all tell the difference.
I'm talking about people that use a crutch to get out of proper forum protocol. I've played plenty of games with plenty of players who speak German, French, Italian, Spanish, Mandarin, Romanian, etc. and they will make small forgivable mistakes on more difficult syntax. That's fine and cool. The key is that they're understandable and I'm spending more time enjoying their company and less time trying to figure out what the hell they said.
Oh, you do me too much honor. I don't frequent these forums enough to be the police of anything; let alone good taste. But yes, perceptions are everything. If I pose a math problem: 5+5, and someone answers 12, I'd perceive that as incorrect.
But there was a point somewhere; and I think it got lost in the mix. Oh, that's what happened, I conflated 2 points.
Point 1) People that are non-native speakers aren't necessarily bad at the language; but it's personally more forgivable if they are.
Point 2) Bad Grammar is bad; regardless of whatever bandaid excuse you put on it.
Your perception of my personal experience has no bearing on the discussion.
I screw up all the time; it's still absolutely expected.
Ah yeah; I should go about doing that; that's also where difficulty arises. How do you draw a line in a generalized enough way that it'll fit in scope of this topic?
"type good" and "grammar good" aren't going to do anyone any favors; so it has to be something that can be easy to digest; and fits the theme of this guide.
That will take some time. I hope it won't take much and I don't want enforced conformity toward a single writing style. The 5 W's are a good starting point that's already been included. I'd probably hit that angle and run with it to see how well it'll work.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
I'm a bit in between on this discussion of language. People should try their best speaking in the English language because this IS an English primary forum and always has been. Judging if someone put effort into their English is immensely subjective as well. Yes, sometimes you can sense when somebody is just being down right sloppy with their words and grammar, but who is to say that is because they are being lazy? I give people the benefit of the doubt because I think people would much prefer to try not looking like a fool than to be lazy and butcher sentences. If they are just being lazy, why post in the first place? They should know that having a well worded post or response will get them attention, and they should know that it is pointless to post otherwise. If they are being lazy just to be lazy, then I'd consider that trolling, which I will remind everyone is against the rules on this forum.
Now if someone is genuinely having issues with the English language it is usually because they are either really young, of another primary language, or both which mind I add is REALLY likely for members of this forum to be young. Was my grammar good when I was a lot younger, even up to say 6th grade? Is my English perfect today? I personally do not feel that anyone will ever perfect the English language because people make mistakes all the time. You cannot say that grammar mistakes are not made by adults as well.
Saying people of another primary language strive harder to speak and write better in English is partly correct. I know primary English speakers who even strive harder to speak and write better English. Making that generalization for all non-primary English speakers is like saying every snowflake is the same because they look the same. If you look closer though, those snowflakes are different and so is everyone else. Some people have harder times actually reading while others have issues comprehending. Some people may be fluent, but others may not. It is a matter of person, not a matter of what primary language you speak.
Now don't get me wrong. I still advocate for trying your earnest effort in making a well formulated and structured post with nice, readable English. In no ways am I saying that people get a pass to not try because "hey, English isn't my first" or "I'm too young and have not learned so much of English yet." The background of a person matters in how well you are able to communicate an idea or thought to others, and everyone here comes from a different background. Some people might have not went to good schools and never had a chance to get a proper English education, but that is never an excuse to try your hardest. As long as you strive for the betterment of yourself, I think that should be what is acceptable, not what others find acceptable because it is "hard to read" or "you didn't try". Pointing the finger isn't cool and you can never say for 100% certainty if someone tried or not. Sometimes it may be more clear than other times, but with 100% certainty, once cannot say someone else didn't try.
I think we need to chill the passion on the language discussion. We can keep the discussion going but we're moving towards it being more of a fight than a calm, rational discussion.
I'm not sure where I stand on the language issue. I'm actually going to take it up with people above my level to see what our total policy is with this.
Want some advice on how to thrive in the Suggestions section? Check this handy list of guidelines and tips for posting your ideas and responding to the ideas of others!
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-discussion/suggestions/2775557-guidelines-for-the-suggestions-forum
Yeah, I agree and that is why I took the middle grounds because I can see valid points on both sides. We should be more focusing on what really the issue is rather than badgering who is correct or not because I feel there is a lot of subjectiveness and obscurity on the topic.