All automation is bad and you should feel bad for spending absolutely any time not mining in Minecraft, even for a few seconds

  • #62
    Quote from marfig

    When a balancing change is made, it is almost always invariably going to affect one mode more than another. We seriously, seriously, need to get a new settings screen in this game. One that allow us to tweak our experience. This is a sandbox game, for pete's sake.


    This is something i keep repeating once and again and again, they do changes but it seems that sometimes they don't really get all the aspects of the game that can be affected by certain change so things get unbalanced and then they try it to balance it back and keeps unbalancing something else making an endless cycle. BTW, im saying this with all due respect, i respect Mojangs Minecraft Dev Team and all its work... there are some changes i like, others i dont but i still respect their decitions and im glad they somehow listen the players/customers.
  • #63
    Quote from marfig

    What!?... Son, we invented redstone contraptions back in alpha when you were still sucking your thumb inside your mother's womb! All you see today?... already done.

    Gettoutahere you pretentious brat. (look at this kid... the alpha hipsters, he says. Pass me my joint before I kill someone...)

    Hell, we didn't even anyone holding our hand. These fancy repeaters, comparators, command blocks? Not a chance. All was done with sweat, blood and tears. The first 8-bit CPU? Alpha.


    Good sir, first of all, I may inform you that I wasn't in my mother's womb in alpha minecraft.

    It was a generalization. I'm not stereotyping all alpha minecraft players, I was simply generalizing the two areas. I'm not stupid. I'm very well aware of the redstone geniuses that were in alpha back then. But the majority of people then were survivors and "live off the land" kins of players because we didn't have the advanced iron and gold farms back then. Some of these awesome people made redstoning what it is today, but most people who played in alpha (those survivors) are holding back the game today from massive progression that could make it even better and improve redstone and automation even more.

    I agree with you, you just misread and I didn't explain that part in enough detail. My bad on that part.
  • #64
    Quote from marfig

    We seriously, seriously, need to get a new settings screen in this game. One that allow us to tweak our experience. This is a sandbox game, for pete's sake.
    It would take some doing for Mojang, but adding settings that can effect single player (for the average joe), and an equivalent config file for servers would be great. Options like 'cropGrowthSpeed=(Percentage)', 'maxActiveRedstoneDistance=(Number) ' or 'mobsAlwaysDropExp=(True, False) would allow for more custom and unique ways of play.
  • #65
    I completely agree with the OP. This has passed the point of respect to the developers, I bought the game how I liked it, and now I don't like it, so I have the right to complain. Whether or not Mojang cares to listen is something else entirely.

    I'm not sure how badly nerfed things are in 1.8, but I understand Iron Golems now only drop iron if killed by a player. This can be fixed by dropping them to half heart and then hitting them, but still, balls to that. As I understand it, same goes with Zombie pigman.

    These farms are so hard to make in the first place, and they are the best bit of the game. Wandering around knocking baby zombies on the head gets boring after a while.

    It's not like diamond can be farmed or anything, this isn't too OP.

    I don't like anything else from 1.8 either. A second body layer on the skin is rubbish because it can be abused to show diamond armour by a load of ten year olds, the new enchanting system is pointless, the old one was fine, the new one is simply more simple, more childish, less elegant...

    This isn't a move to satisfy the old players of minecraft. Iron golems dropping was an old thing. Mojang killed them, and roses, and the ocean. Iron Golems are so old now that the iron dropping is nostalgia for us.

    I have no intention of updating to 1.8.

    If Mojang read the forums they would have realised that noone wanted oceans to be turned into swiss cheese ponds, and noone wanted rose bushes. How much more obvious could we be? I DON'T LIKE IT.

    Seriously, I am not updating. I hope someone other than Mojang will fix Minecraft and release their own versions of updates based on what the players want, not on the whims of Mojang's think tank.

    Even the stone in the new update ruins things. It makes things too complex, we don't need three new varieties of stone. This is Minecraft, it feels like something else though.

    This is beyond stupidity.

  • #66
    Quote from SwaggyMarv

    but most people who played in alpha (those survivors) are holding back the game today from massive progression that could make it even better and improve redstone and automation even more.



    What do you mean? How can they hold it back?
    I don't know what to say so here are some random facts that may save your life someday:
    -Coldness is just the lack of heath.
    -Hoth is a cold planet in Star Wars.
    -Your hair still grows a few months after you die.
  • #67
    OP you're my hero for that bit. I figured it out right away, but regardless, it seems like a common argument :o

    I've never built an iron farm or anything like that, but it doesn't bother me when others do. I enjoy doing mechanics and stuff like that for fun. Complex piston doors? Not so much rewarding, but cool to have and interesting to learn. Way I figure it, I enjoy mining, but not everyone does, so let 'em get their iron how they see fit. More ores for me :D
  • #68
    Quote from Calacbolg

    Mojang should make it impossible for any entities to be moved by pistons or water because it's much more challenging (and thus inherently superior to the automatic method!) to manually pool mobs into a single spot relative to automatically than compared to killing mobs manually relative to automatically.

    Also, we should make sugar cane, melons, and pumpkins break pistons, instead of the other way around. The time spent building machines to mine those blocks for you detracts way too much from the time you could be spending down in the caves mining, those caves that haven't seen a single game-changing addition/alteration since Minecraft Beta.

    While we're at it, we need to remove villager trading entirely. You can get items that you should only ever get by mining, without even stepping foot underground! This completely and totally obliterates and annihilates any remote resemblance of a point to playing this already really freeform sandbox game.

    It makes me so mad that people can just find ways to get resources that aren't the way that they got those resources on their first in-game day of that world. The thought that people can use resources gained from mining for any other purpose than to mine more infuriates me. The very idea that, in a survival-based game, it is possible to build a machine that reduces the amount of times you will need to put yourself in situations where your survival is at risk (EG: Mining) makes me want to tear multiple close loved ones limb from limb each time it presents itself in my mind.

    I want to tell you a story. I joined a server. I stayed there for a while. One day I decided that I needed a lot of iron for no particular reason. So I spent 10 hours mining and got myself 30 stacks of iron ore, which I promptly smelted and used for decorative purposes. Then, this know-it-all joins the server. He spends several weeks on a single-player creative world trying to find a specific arrangement of blocks that actually worked for his hackery. After finally finding the perfect combination, he proceeds to spend several days on the server getting himself to a point where dying doesn't mean he lost everything. Then he begins the process. He spends 10 hours mining all of the resources he needs. Then he spends 10 more hours actually putting them together in a farm.

    I then watched with horror as he got the same 30 stacks of iron as me, except in only 2 hours instead of 10. And he didn't have to mine any of it.


    Agreed, well stated, if this is called a "fix" then may as well "fix" gravity, why should it affect some blocks and not others.
  • #69
    Quote from jebblue

    Agreed, well stated, if this is called a "fix" then may as well "fix" gravity, why should it affect some blocks and not others.

    That's completely unwarranted. Gravity is not currently horribly unbalanced, unlike material farms that you get by just existing in the world.

    ...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
  • #70
    Quote from Calacbolg

    Mojang is essentially telling every single person in the engineering crowd of Minecraft that they do not belong in the Survival mode of the game.

    Which is odd considering that the last two major updates have catered specifically to the engineering crowd and seemed to be explicitly promoting both automated farms and item process with the hopper/dropper and new redstone features.

    I don't think that Mojang have a comprehensive strategy for what kind of game Minecraft should be.
  • #71
    Quote from SwaggyMarv

    To OP, I clap. Awesome job with this thread and explaining to people why automation is amazing.

    Now to my statement:

    There are two main kinds of Minecraft players: the old hipster alpha players and the new 1.5 redstoning guys. I'd classify myself as a redstoner, because that's what I love to do in this game, but it seems like Mojang is attempting to make those first people who bought the game happier for nostalgia reasons, when in reality, these are the same people holding the game back from its nearly endless potential. Automation is what makes Minecraft what it is for me. I understand that the game is a sandbox, but that's what does it for me. People don't have to build these epic farms and do these epic things to make themselves feel like they've accomplished something with more work. These people who say iron farms and gold farms are "cheaty" and shouldn't be in Minecraft are living in a cave hole, because what makes Minecraft the great game that it is: the sandbox aspect. And then when they see the great creations that us redstoning people make, they become snobby and whine about not doing things not being "legit", when in truth, the most popular and most raved about things in the Minecraft community require redstone and automation. Look at Docm77, look at Etho, look at the Zipkrowd crew, look at HermitCraft, and look at the countless other popular youtubers and youtube groups. Redstone is the new age of Minecraft now. Automation in general is the new age of Minecraft.

    So all of you hipster old alpha players need to understand that Minecraft has changed for the better. Go play beta 1.7.3 if you want to play legit or whatever. And Mojang, stop listening to these people who have no room for change. Redstone and Automation are the best things that ever happened to Minecraft, and breaking this amazing part ofm the game down to shambles slowly is terrible for not only 1.8, but the future of Minecraft.

    I'm out.


    I played since Indev, and I agree completely.
    Quote from simen671

    Do you guys think Dinnerbone is giving a hint here? Or is he just Dinnerboning?
  • #72
    In the defense of all those who didn't notice it was a joke, I only knew it was because I recognized that you were the cubic chunks guy.


    But to the point at hand. . .

    I have always believed in farming. One of the most amazing features of Minecraft is that anyone can play it however they want to. Someone can walk west for days, or they can dig into the ground and never face the light of day, or they can live on top of a mountain, or in a castle, or in a hell fortress under the lava lakes of the nether. Minecraft has always had open ended features, that a creative player can use to do all sorts of amazing things - one of the greatest being the ability to farm things. Farming as we know it isn't a feature of the game, it's an amazing bit of emergent game play that happens when people notice how all the little mechanics can come together to do something extraordinary.

    Furthermore, the difficulty of constructing working farms should not be discounted, in most cases someone who can construct an iron farm probably has all the iron they would ever be able to use anyway - why not let them have more?

    And then there is the problem of it being to late. If they had done this in Beta, fine, it's a Beta. If they had added Golems in one snapshot and nerfed in the next - fine. But once you release something like this as part of the full version of the game? That's just absurd.

    Why is Mojang going to war against farmers? Why is it somehow wrong to play the game that way?
    Last edited by zeel: 1/18/2014 11:23:53 PM
    Don't forget to tell Mojang that you. . .
  • #73
    Quote from SwaggyMarv

    To OP, I clap. Awesome job with this thread and explaining to people why automation is amazing.

    Now to my statement:

    There are two main kinds of Minecraft players: the old hipster alpha players and the new 1.5 redstoning guys. I'd classify myself as a redstoner, because that's what I love to do in this game, but it seems like Mojang is attempting to make those first people who bought the game happier for nostalgia reasons, when in reality, these are the same people holding the game back from its nearly endless potential. Automation is what makes Minecraft what it is for me. I understand that the game is a sandbox, but that's what does it for me. People don't have to build these epic farms and do these epic things to make themselves feel like they've accomplished something with more work. These people who say iron farms and gold farms are "cheaty" and shouldn't be in Minecraft are living in a cave hole, because what makes Minecraft the great game that it is: the sandbox aspect. And then when they see the great creations that us redstoning people make, they become snobby and whine about not doing things not being "legit", when in truth, the most popular and most raved about things in the Minecraft community require redstone and automation. Look at Docm77, look at Etho, look at the Zipkrowd crew, look at HermitCraft, and look at the countless other popular youtubers and youtube groups. Redstone is the new age of Minecraft now. Automation in general is the new age of Minecraft.

    So all of you hipster old alpha players need to understand that Minecraft has changed for the better. Go play beta 1.7.3 if you want to play legit or whatever. And Mojang, stop listening to these people who have no room for change. Redstone and Automation are the best things that ever happened to Minecraft, and breaking this amazing part ofm the game down to shambles slowly is terrible for not only 1.8, but the future of Minecraft.

    I'm out.

    Well that is stereo-typing in it's finest...
    I've been here since a little before the nether was added, and I'm all for changing the game, it's only the minority of alpha players that want them to change it all to non-automation, and even back then you could semi-automate a lot of things, and that was what made it fun, finding new ways to automate things and getting new tech for it every update, which is even better now!
    I guess all I'm saying is; don't group people like that, it's wrong.
  • #74
    Quote from Debugman18
    balance

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    Quote from Debugman18
    If the developers want players to actually play, instead of sitting around afk'ing for materials, why can't they change it to reflect that? You can still have your iron farms; they didn't remove the drops, they only made it so that you have to actually kill the mob yourself. Zombies have worked this way for quite some time now, and so have experience farms. This change isn't new, it's simply been applied to more mobs.

    And what happens when you set up your zombie farm and sit at it, young hunter?
    Lag.
    The developers aren't encouraging you to 'actually play' at all. They're making it worse for everybody around you when you do the two extra steps they've made mandatory to farming.
    Quote from Debugman18
    This isn't about players having problems with other players using farms. This is about players having a problem with the devs having a problem with extremely game-breaking farms. Anyways, farms still work. Mojang has not removed farms. They simply made iron golems and pigmen work similarly to how zombies have been for ages.

    Actually, this is entirely about players having problems with other players using farms. If there were no multiplayer, there'd be no false sense of 'balance' to maintain for those who get riled over others playing the game differently and call it wrong. Farms don't break the game. The game runs just fine with them doing their thing. Heck, that's the point of farms - to get something without hurting your game. They provide a different means to acquire resources.
    Quote from Moranic
    I think farming should be possible, but only to a certain extent. Iron Golem farms are REALLY overpowered and it kinda defeats the point of having to mine for your resources. Also, the devs will find something to counterweigh these nerfs. Look at how XP got changed after XP farms were made much harder to do and less profitable.

    Let's discuss for a moment how 'overpowered' it is to let me farm iron.

    You can go up to the villagers in 1.8, bust out stacks of wheat, and walk away with a handful of enchanted diamond gear. Sure, you're not getting diamonds, but you're getting what you'd make with diamonds. And they're provided as a low-hanging-fruit, a bypass to the rarest, most valuable resource in the game's overworld, for the price of wasting time on agriculture. You lose it, you just return to your wheat and then to your villagers and reclaim your enchanted diamond gear. And you're complaining that I might make myself some non-enchanted iron gear.

    You do realize that 1.8 actually renders iron farms obsolete as a source of gear simply by making villager-trading better, right? There's no real need to nerf them at all, because the canny player will instead breed a couple-dozen villagers and set up a couple of agricultural farms - which can still be full-auto. The real competitive advantage lies in the newly-optimized villagers. So what are you stopping? Instead of taking a stack of iron and a few blocks of wood and making myself mundane iron gear, I should be taking my endless stacks of wheat, trading for emeralds, and getting enchanted diamond gear.

    1.8 is making me be a better 'cheater.'
  • #75
    Quote from SwaggyMarv

    Good sir, first of all, I may inform you that I wasn't in my mother's womb in alpha minecraft.

    It was a generalization. I'm not stereotyping all alpha minecraft players, I was simply generalizing the two areas. I'm not stupid. I'm very well aware of the redstone geniuses that were in alpha back then. But the majority of people then were survivors and "live off the land" kins of players because we didn't have the advanced iron and gold farms back then. Some of these awesome people made redstoning what it is today, but most people who played in alpha (those survivors) are holding back the game today from massive progression that could make it even better and improve redstone and automation even more.

    I agree with you, you just misread and I didn't explain that part in enough detail. My bad on that part.
    Oh the ignorance...

    I would say its the other way around. It is MineCraft, not AutoGather. Sure, you can play how you want but a large amount of players play without even considering making huge automated farms, and they cry for more survival features.

    Personally I am against making farms to do everything for you, but I don't care if other players do it unless it is, say, an iron farm in multiplayer PvP.
    Last edited by Pheck: 1/18/2014 11:57:08 PM
    "A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
    - Lord Tywin Lannister
  • #76
    Quote from IncubiLord

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    And what happens when you set up your zombie farm and sit at it, young hunter?
    Lag.
    The developers aren't encouraging you to 'actually play' at all. They're making it worse for everybody around you when you do the two extra steps they've made mandatory to farming.

    Actually, this is entirely about players having problems with other players using farms. If there were no multiplayer, there'd be no false sense of 'balance' to maintain for those who get riled over others playing the game differently and call it wrong. Farms don't break the game. The game runs just fine with them doing their thing. Heck, that's the point of farms - to get something without hurting your game. They provide a different means to acquire resources.

    Let's discuss for a moment how 'overpowered' it is to let me farm iron.

    You can go up to the villagers in 1.8, bust out stacks of wheat, and walk away with a handful of enchanted diamond gear. Sure, you're not getting diamonds, but you're getting what you'd make with diamonds. And they're provided as a low-hanging-fruit, a bypass to the rarest, most valuable resource in the game's overworld, for the price of wasting time on agriculture. You lose it, you just return to your wheat and then to your villagers and reclaim your enchanted diamond gear. And you're complaining that I might make myself some non-enchanted iron gear.

    You do realize that 1.8 actually renders iron farms obsolete as a source of gear simply by making villager-trading better, right? There's no real need to nerf them at all, because the canny player will instead breed a couple-dozen villagers and set up a couple of agricultural farms - which can still be full-auto. The real competitive advantage lies in the newly-optimized villagers. So what are you stopping? Instead of taking a stack of iron and a few blocks of wood and making myself mundane iron gear, I should be taking my endless stacks of wheat, trading for emeralds, and getting enchanted diamond gear.

    1.8 is making me be a better 'cheater.'

    Your rebuttals didn't even make sense. Most villages don't have such nice trades, and players don't just spawn with tons of emeralds. A villager farm must be made for the best efficiency. They have nerfed villagers, in the sense that now you have to utilize all of their trades to unlock new ones. On top of that, villagers breed much less often now. As for farms causing lag, nothing is changing in that regard. Iron farms and gold farms caused just as much lag as before. I don't get why people are bringing lag into this, it has no place in this discussion.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think I can discuss this further with you, since you don't seem to understand the actual mechanics behind various farms. I'm not a 'young hunter' either, I've been playing Minecraft since early beta, and I've seen a large number of mechanics added and changed. I've spent time making efficient mob grinders and material farms. I know their benefits, and their costs, and I especially know what changes they are undergoing currently. I've also had years of experience as a server operator (and owner) and grinders (materials OR experience) have always been a source of lag.
    Last edited by Debugman18: 1/18/2014 11:58:56 PM

    ...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
  • #77
    Quote from creepers34

    I hate when people make huge farms, have tons of resources, such as full protection IV diamond armor, or iron block houses. I mean its not right, you know? Not quite fair to people who are mining, just trying to get by with the little they have, and you have chests full of the stuff they get in a week's times.


    By this logic, when people have nether portals, brewing stands, potions, and other Nether-related items, it's not fair to the people who aren't lucky enough to find diamonds and get obsidian.

    Nothing is stopping those people who spend their time mining from making their own farm, except themselves. Crafting a farm is evidently a superior method of gathering resources than mining a cave. When you try and do something, you usually try for the best way of doing it. You enchant items because those enchants let you do things better. You build a farm because it lets you do things better.
  • #78
    I looked at this topic thinking "Is this guy joking? I hope he's joking." Turns out, 'he' was. Thanks guys, this is pretty good. It's basically /r/minecraftcirclejerk, but in this case even better!

    And thanks for the lovely post of Calac!

    Now please keep every user's body intact. OK, seeya.
    I am working on a texture pack. Place your bets on how long it takes for this message to update!
  • #79
    Quote from Pheck

    Oh the ignorance...

    I would say its the other way around. It is MineCraft, not AutoGather. Sure, you can play how you want but a large amount of players play without even considering making huge automated farms, and they cry for more survival features.

    Personally I am against making farms to do everything for you, but I don't care if other players do it unless it is, say, an iron farm in multiplayer PvP.


    I am going to be honest here. I realize minecraft is partly a survival game .. but if that is the only portion of the game you like, I can think of a handful of other games much better suited to that. I always seen minecraft as more of a building game where you first have to gather resources to build what you want to build. In general minecraft is pretty easy to survive, so it isn't much of a survival game to begin with if you ask me. I can literally box myself in and survive forever with out ever moving. Since I don't move, i wont get hungry and since I am in a box . .I wont ever die o.o.

    I get more survival like fun playing Skyrim modded with realistic needs and diseases and frostfall then I ever got out of minecraft. Keeping in mind I play minecraft on the hardest setting.

    If it wasn't for these amazing red stone contraption, I wouldn't even play minecraft at all. Automating tasks only means you are progressing, and it only helps you to continue to BUILD which is a main function of the game. mineCRAFT. Mineing is also a big part of the game, but I got news for you, these farms don't stop people from mining. It only stops people from mining specific ores.

    No, this game is not AutoGather, but CRAFTING auto farms never made it any less Minecraft to begin with. The only people who honestly are bothered by such petty things are those with a bug stuck up their butt,
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  • #80
    Quote from Debugman18

    Your rebuttals didn't even make sense. Most villages don't have such nice trades, and players don't just spawn with tons of emeralds. A villager farm must be made for the best efficiency. They have nerfed villagers, in the sense that now you have to utilize all of their trades to unlock new ones. On top of that, villagers breed much less often now. As for farms causing lag, nothing is changing in that regard. Iron farms and gold farms caused just as much lag as before. I don't get why people are bringing lag into this, it has no place in this discussion.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think I can discuss this further with you, since you don't seem to understand the actual mechanics behind various farms. I'm not a 'young hunter' either, I've been playing Minecraft since early beta, and I've seen a large number of mechanics added and changed. I've spent time making efficient mob grinders and material farms. I know their benefits, and their costs, and I especially know what changes they are undergoing currently. I've also had years of experience as a server operator (and owner) and grinders (materials OR experience) have always been a source of lag.


    Well technically the lag issue is true. A farm that kills entities right away compared to a farm that stores them until player returns to kill them off.

    Keeping entities causes more lag as the server has to keep track of more. That is common sense .. unless of course minecraft doesn't work like a conventional video game -.-
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  • #81
    Quote from Debugman18

    Your rebuttals didn't even make sense.

    Likely because you missed the references to The Princess Bride and South Park for mild humor.
    Most villages don't have such nice trades, and players don't just spawn with tons of emeralds. A villager farm must be made for the best efficiency. They have nerfed villagers, in the sense that now you have to utilize all of their trades to unlock new ones. On top of that, villagers breed much less often now.

    Kindly learn how trading works in the new system before telling somebody that they're wrong. If you can't bother to experiment with it, find an article, or look up a couple of vids on youtube, the short version is that you need only sugar cane, raw chicken, and rotten meat to unlock every trade from all of your villagers - you don't need to do every trade, just one of each tier, and most include a trade costs only the emeralds you can get from trading base materials - and then you can always unlock a trade again by doing any different trade. So you walk in with stacks of wheat or raw chicken trade for several emeralds, and then trade one emerald back to unlock trading more wheat/chicken (and gain an item you probably don't care about).

    Yes, they're more annoying to breed, but they're easier to get top-tier trades from, easier to unlock base-material trades against with, and much more predictable. Plus, they have set trade-lists so that you will always unlock a diamond sword/armor trade with the right villagers. If the breeding hadn't been hit hard, this would be retardedly great.
    As for farms causing lag, nothing is changing in that regard. Iron farms and gold farms caused just as much lag as before. I don't get why people are bringing lag into this, it has no place in this discussion.

    You say you've run a server, but you can't compare the lag of a player-kill system like a zombie/XP farm to that of a simple iron farm?
    If you're that good, you should know that an iron farm with an auto-kill built in is far less processor-intensive than the horde of fifty zombies/blazes that are being allowed to pile up before using a potion to kill them. That's why lag is part of the discussion. 1.8 is turning the latter into the former.

    I'm sorry, but I know it's pointless to discuss this with you further. You've demonstrated that you don't grasp the topic at hand. I am duly impressed by your ethereal credentials, though. Did you know that I'm 300' tall and breathe fire?
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