Just another quick +1 for your stance on the Forge thing. It's really ing me off that I may soon have to choose between using the Forge mods I like and using my favorite texture packs for no other reason than that cpw and Lex decided it should be so. And, frankly, I am tired of the drama that Forge seems to create - I don't know that I've ever seen anything like it in any other game community. So much baggage, and it just never seems to stop piling up.
Anyways, I hope to god Mojang stops with the junk content and gets moving on a real API already. Till then, as I said.. +1!
Regarding forge support. For those who are unaware, forge's latest update is essentially an ultimatum to modders: Either be incompatible with us or be incompatible with everything else. As one of MCPatcher's core design principles is to be as compatible as possible, this is completely unacceptable. Making MCPatcher forge-compliant would represent an enormous effort for an inferior result. Among other things it would mean no snapshot support, leaving texture pack artists with no way to work on new features between major Minecraft releases.
There is no technical reason for this "no jar edits" requirement. With a few hours work I was able to bypass it and get a proof-of-concept MCPatcher+forge modified jar up and running with only minor incompatibilities. The result is essentially the same as the old way of adding a forge zip to MCPatcher and clicking Patch.
I am led to conclude that this change is more about promoting an ideology than a technology, and recent public behavior by Lex and cpw only confirms that. They repeatedly insist that any modder not doing things their way is "doing it wrong", as if there were only One True Way to create Minecraft mods. The condescension is especially rich considering forge's crude binary diffs method for base class edits is light years behind what MCPatcher has been doing for over two years now.
So while perhaps I could cobble together something that will work both with and without forge, having to bend over backward to accommodate a group with so little regard for others is extremely frustrating. I would much rather work on new features for artists than constantly jump through forge's ever-changing and utterly unnecessary hoops.
Wow, a lot of emotion there. Really isn't it just a choice? I use bukkit or forge or base edits and use mcpatcher. None of them work well with each other. Eh, if you don't like one method use another. If we could just channel all that energy towards making cool mods in our chosen flavor, the end users of the mods will make the true choice of the mod method with the best mods as they win by content not contention.
I'd also like to show my support for you decision regarding the Forge. It was about time someone called the current Forge leaders on their behavior, I just hope other mod developers will feel encouraged by your actions and do the same...
Full support from me for what it's worth, kahr. I'd have long since found something else to do with my spare time if you hadn't continued to make it possible to expand on Minecraft's awesome aesthetic possibilities.
Integrity, choice and common sense over dictatorial control any day. You've always been helpful to the community and shown great patience and understanding along the way in the face of much frustration. Others seem to enjoy taking the macho 'superior intellect' stance.
Hello Kahr, I'm going to reply this one time to your post, I don't wish to start a flame war or anything else. Forge is not going to change our distribution method, and I don't believe you're going to change yours. That is fine. 100% compatibility is a goal, but it will never be attained.
You will note a single theme, tweeted by ME frequently, but ignored by the more bombastic members of the modding community. I really hope you are not one of those.
Please note, from my perspective, your compatibility with forge has been minimal for at least a year- I PMed you here about trying to fix some of your more egregious class modification issues, without a response. The runtime class modifications Forge/FML perform have long had a problem with your pre-launch class modifications, and we decided that trying to work around them was more irritating than it was worth. It was very hard to understand your custom class patching technology as it doesn't seem to be based on any byte code engineering technology I am aware of. ASM, our choice, certainly puked more often than not.
Regarding forge support. For those who are unaware, forge's latest update is essentially an ultimatum to modders: Either be incompatible with us or be incompatible with everything else. As one of MCPatcher's core design principles is to be as compatible as possible, this is completely unacceptable. Making MCPatcher forge-compliant would represent an enormous effort for an inferior result. Among other things it would mean no snapshot support, leaving texture pack artists with no way to work on new features between major Minecraft releases.
I was personally asked by Mojang to stop putting minecraft classes directly in my jar distributables. I complied with their request at the 1.6 release, since it was technically possible to do so at that point. I am sorry if that makes your life more difficult.
There is no technical reason for this "no jar edits" requirement. With a few hours work I was able to bypass it and get a proof-of-concept MCPatcher+forge modified jar up and running with only minor incompatibilities. The result is essentially the same as the old way of adding a forge zip to MCPatcher and clicking Patch.
I agree there is not technical limitation. There is simply Mojang's direct request to me "Don't do that please". The binary diff is crude, because it was simple and rapidly implemented. A more elaborate method-driven ASM technology was and still is in progress, but would result in less useful stack traces, so it's not in a hurry to happen.
I am led to conclude that this change is more about promoting an ideology than a technology, and recent public behavior by Lex and cpw only confirms that. They repeatedly insist that any modder not doing things their way is "doing it wrong", as if there were only One True Way to create Minecraft mods. The condescension is especially rich considering forge's crude binary diffs method for base class edits is light years behind what MCPatcher has been doing for over two years now.
Ideologically, yes, I don't like base edits. The less we have to do the better. However, that has nothing to do with Mojang's direct request "stop shipping minecraft classes".
So while perhaps I could cobble together something that will work both with and without forge, having to bend over backward to accommodate a group with so little regard for others is extremely frustrating. I would much rather work on new features for artists than constantly jump through forge's ever-changing and utterly unnecessary hoops.
That is your choice. As I say, MCpatcher has not been considered a recommended forge tool for applying code to the jar in some time, due to the class mangling you perform being incompatible with our runtime work.
Personally, I find taking screenshots and making fun of their histrionics and ignorance to be quite therapeutic. But then, I'm known as a horrible person...
I don't think Flowerchild and his sycophants are a majority, though.
Just a note on this, if I recall correctly Lex appeared on the stream were BWF was announced and openly supported it.
Also there is slight difference between ideas (I'm going to do a medieval tech BTW-like mod) and impementation themselves in therms of gameplay (I'm going to do an exact copy of every block in BTW).
Yea, he did. Just looked that up. It pales in comparison to the amount of sheer vitriol, negativity and personal attacks that FC has launched at CPW, etc. over the months.
Yea, he did. Just looked that up. It pales in comparison to the amount of sheer vitriol, negativity and personal attacks that FC has launched at CPW, etc. over the months.
I guess it depends upon which side of the fence you stand on I guess, as it's been discussed elsewhere before. Despite it being an almost carbon copy, if it's not using any of the original code or assets, there's no problem whatsoever. People who use Forge want to play BTW, but FC doesn't want to produce a Forge version, so others are taking it upon themselves to do so. If anything, that's a huge compliment for FC if people are willing to recreate his mod because they want to play it that badly.
Please don't bring up the FC debate. It's not relevant here.
Just keep doing what you are doing, because MCPatcher is one of the most innovative and useful tools for texture artists out there. I don't think you should change the way your tool works to accomodate request of other people, escept if you want it.
What if it was at the request of the legal owners of Minecraft's codebase, Mojang?
Please don't bring up the FC debate. It's not relevant here.
It's clearly the motivating factor behind Kahr making a vehement and misleading public post to a bunch of dedicated but ultimately clueless fans who have nothing to do with your and LexManos's personality issues or the problems with getting javassist and asm to work together, instead of actually contacting you about it.
It's clearly the motivating factor behind Kahr making a vehement and misleading public post to a bunch of dedicated but ultimately clueless fans who have nothing to do with your and LexManos's personality issues or the problems with getting javassist and asm to work together, instead of actually contacting you about it.
I concur, but I mainly think it should be avoided given that nothing constructive will come out of the massive flamewar that could ensue.
If you are referring to Grum's and cpw's latest tweets, you see that they're talking about base class edits, wich MCPatcher doesn't do, because, duh, it's a patcher. I suggest to read more carefully next time before you make a fool of yourself, clueless fan.
However, Forge, by complying, means that it's harder for MCPatcher to work. That's a sad side-effect of this action. It's one that I cannot easily change, without uncomplying with Mojang's request, however.
If you are referring to Grum's and cpw's latest tweets, you see that they're talking about base class edits, wich MCPatcher doesn't do, because, duh, it's a patcher. I suggest to read more carefully next time before you make a fool of yourself, clueless fan.
Whoa whoa whoa, what did I do to earn your hostility? I was just asking a question, which was also left unanswered. Your comment had nothing to do with base class editing, either:
I don't think you should change the way your tool works to accommodate request of other people, except if you want it.
So I ask you, what if it were Mojang, or even Notch himself, that requested a change in the way that the mod works?
If you are referring to Grum's and cpw's latest tweets, you see that they're talking about base class edits, wich MCPatcher doesn't do, because, duh, it's a patcher. I suggest to read more carefully next time before you make a fool of yourself, clueless fan.
Correct. MCPatcher (and javassist) is pretty awesome actually. The problem is that Forge does (or used to) ship the base classes, which makes it a lot easier for MCPatcher to work with. Since they can't do that anymore, it's extra work for Kahr (and me, and probably a lot of people who will be contributing to Forge). I totally understand the frustration with having to put so much effort to be compatible. But painting it as some kind of jihad move ("an ideology") is frankly kool-aid.
As an analogy: I'm very pro-scala, and if you're not using scala (instead of Java) I think you're a simian luddite. Does that motivate people to make angry posts about how I'm crushing their individuality by forcing them to use Scala if they want to be compatible with my mod?
...well, actually, I did get a few angry messages on IRC...
Whoa whoa whoa, what did I do to earn your hostility? I was just asking a question, which was also left unanswered. Your comment had nothing to do with base class editing, either:
So I ask you, what if it were Mojang, or even Notch himself, that requested a change in the way that the mod works?
Nick, chill please. He's right, MC patcher works by shipping patches in the form of functional diffs, applied to classes in the jar file. FML/Forge's changes to use a runtime binary diffing strategy pretty much break his model entirely.
Anyways, I hope to god Mojang stops with the junk content and gets moving on a real API already. Till then, as I said.. +1!
I think I may have broken my mouse trying to spam the +1 button, but in any case, glad to see you taking a strong stance on this Kahr.
*joins applause*
Wow, a lot of emotion there. Really isn't it just a choice? I use bukkit or forge or base edits and use mcpatcher. None of them work well with each other. Eh, if you don't like one method use another. If we could just channel all that energy towards making cool mods in our chosen flavor, the end users of the mods will make the true choice of the mod method with the best mods as they win by content not contention.
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Curse PremiumIntegrity, choice and common sense over dictatorial control any day. You've always been helpful to the community and shown great patience and understanding along the way in the face of much frustration. Others seem to enjoy taking the macho 'superior intellect' stance.
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Curse PremiumYou will note a single theme, tweeted by ME frequently, but ignored by the more bombastic members of the modding community. I really hope you are not one of those.
Please note, from my perspective, your compatibility with forge has been minimal for at least a year- I PMed you here about trying to fix some of your more egregious class modification issues, without a response. The runtime class modifications Forge/FML perform have long had a problem with your pre-launch class modifications, and we decided that trying to work around them was more irritating than it was worth. It was very hard to understand your custom class patching technology as it doesn't seem to be based on any byte code engineering technology I am aware of. ASM, our choice, certainly puked more often than not.
I was personally asked by Mojang to stop putting minecraft classes directly in my jar distributables. I complied with their request at the 1.6 release, since it was technically possible to do so at that point. I am sorry if that makes your life more difficult.
I agree there is not technical limitation. There is simply Mojang's direct request to me "Don't do that please". The binary diff is crude, because it was simple and rapidly implemented. A more elaborate method-driven ASM technology was and still is in progress, but would result in less useful stack traces, so it's not in a hurry to happen.
Ideologically, yes, I don't like base edits. The less we have to do the better. However, that has nothing to do with Mojang's direct request "stop shipping minecraft classes".
That is your choice. As I say, MCpatcher has not been considered a recommended forge tool for applying code to the jar in some time, due to the class mangling you perform being incompatible with our runtime work.
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Curse PremiumPersonally, I find taking screenshots and making fun of their histrionics and ignorance to be quite therapeutic. But then, I'm known as a horrible person...
I don't think Flowerchild and his sycophants are a majority, though.
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Curse PremiumYea, he did. Just looked that up. It pales in comparison to the amount of sheer vitriol, negativity and personal attacks that FC has launched at CPW, etc. over the months.
-snip-
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Curse PremiumPlease don't bring up the FC debate. It's not relevant here.
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Curse PremiumOkay. Apologies!
What if it was at the request of the legal owners of Minecraft's codebase, Mojang?
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Curse PremiumIt's clearly the motivating factor behind Kahr making a vehement and misleading public post to a bunch of dedicated but ultimately clueless fans who have nothing to do with your and LexManos's personality issues or the problems with getting javassist and asm to work together, instead of actually contacting you about it.
I concur, but I mainly think it should be avoided given that nothing constructive will come out of the massive flamewar that could ensue.
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Curse PremiumI agree. Major mistake/error on my behalf in bringing it up and posting it. Very sorry for doing so.
It's quite the jimmy rustler when I see these massive one-sided flame wars and baiting going on, for no reason whatsoever.
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Curse PremiumHowever, Forge, by complying, means that it's harder for MCPatcher to work. That's a sad side-effect of this action. It's one that I cannot easily change, without uncomplying with Mojang's request, however.
Whoa whoa whoa, what did I do to earn your hostility? I was just asking a question, which was also left unanswered. Your comment had nothing to do with base class editing, either:
So I ask you, what if it were Mojang, or even Notch himself, that requested a change in the way that the mod works?
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Curse PremiumCorrect. MCPatcher (and javassist) is pretty awesome actually. The problem is that Forge does (or used to) ship the base classes, which makes it a lot easier for MCPatcher to work with. Since they can't do that anymore, it's extra work for Kahr (and me, and probably a lot of people who will be contributing to Forge). I totally understand the frustration with having to put so much effort to be compatible. But painting it as some kind of jihad move ("an ideology") is frankly kool-aid.
As an analogy: I'm very pro-scala, and if you're not using scala (instead of Java) I think you're a simian luddite. Does that motivate people to make angry posts about how I'm crushing their individuality by forcing them to use Scala if they want to be compatible with my mod?
...well, actually, I did get a few angry messages on IRC...
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Curse PremiumNick, chill please. He's right, MC patcher works by shipping patches in the form of functional diffs, applied to classes in the jar file. FML/Forge's changes to use a runtime binary diffing strategy pretty much break his model entirely.