i'm not sure if i'm alone on this but i loved my liquid vis. It more or less defined thaumcraft for me made it the only "tech mod" that i even used and it was so clean and good to have all my precious resource where i could store it in tanks and show it to all those around me (well if i ever played on servers that is) so i was annoyed at the idea tc3 had at mostly removed vis. i however do agree that wands need more uses as it seems thaumcraft wands/tools are more or less "inside tools" and have no practical use outside our houses. if you are adding casting and new worldgen and changing nodes will we atleast see some of the void/elrich stuff come back? can we still have some "rare" aspects like pure? perhaps for "white" magic will you be removing hidden recearch or will you instead add to it? anyway i guess i should end here
not the mention wasting resources trying to find the correct 3rd element.
Wow, This is one of my favorite things about thaumcraft.. No sarcasm at all.. "What is it? What *IS* it? Hrms..> Have we tried this yet? Perhaps a dash of this? No... That's all the aspects I have here... Time to go get more resources..."
And off I go on a world-racing adventure to find this elusive piece of data.
Private Mod Note
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"compatability is king, but configuratiblity is queen" - InfinityRaider
[size=medium]Wow, This is one of my favorite things about thaumcraft.. No sarcasm at all.. "What is it? What *IS* it? Hrms..> Have we tried this yet? Perhaps a dash of this? No... That's all the aspects I have here... Time to go get more resources..."[/size]
[size=medium]And off I go on a world-racing adventure to find this elusive piece of data.[/size]
Well said, it's a mod that fun because it forces ya to, at times and I enjoy doing so, pack up a camping kit, load up the trail food and head off to dig up half the worldt o find one harder than hell to find item, and use it to make a golem. XD but seriously It's what makes the mod worth using and well minecraft more fun.
If i may, id like to offer an alternative to the casting system.
Instead of going the route of creating different "pew pew" spells, why not create some sort of system where you store "effects" in single use items. (crystals, Paper, etc.) The item might get destroyed or not when you use it.
Parhaps scrolls written in magical ink (created from different aspects)?
Or a machine that infuse crystals with different levels of aspects (this would be a much more flexible system with your lower level of aspects). An added bonus is that this feels more magi-punk like.
id say, let research be as it is but add more to research, i like node's as they are now and i dont see any reason to remove them ( i like lightning on my house ) and what i do want to see more is when your node is higly corrupted, the place around you will to! maybe more generated structures, more enemies, and more combat focused spells. that would be my thaumcraft 4
Ridiculously funny idea: not sure where it can be used (research / stationary spell casting - rituals) but maybe force player to move in order to achive something. For example to boost something make steve go around cauldron and jump once. Imagine how hilarious it would look on server: You walk to Your friend and he is running, jumping, crouching and then everything is obvious - magic in progress
I like the idea of moving them to blocks-like data, and have different structures with different capabilities. It would be interesting if certain features of the blocks would be clearer only with the goggles, stuff like rune overlays and things. Magic things.
-Aspect, wand, spell and vis:
Ok, vis has lost a lot of importance since TC1, so I wouldn't mind if it disappeared completely. However, I am a bit unsure about the aspects-inside-you thing, as in TC there was always a medium between you and magic. Therefore, why don't we make the casting wand central, and have it not only be able to cast different spell (I thought if this idea some times ago), but it will also act as a buffer for your aspects, and that could influence your spellcasting, maybe. It could have its own GUI, that you could access with shift-right click, too. Something like a glass globe on top that holds magical power, and it could be upgradable, maybe with a totally separated system.
Threfore TC would have two central points, the cauldron were you decompose items, and the wands, used to channel those aspects.
Naturally there would be a lot of other blocks, like the altar to craft magical items, as well an enchant table based on aspect, and I don't know if you saw my double suggestionon the TC3 thread, the magical beacon (that could work quite well with the new wand). Also, to be faithful to the magi-punk feeling, those machines would be brassy-rocky-shiny machines, and would need jars to be fueled in a sort of multiblock structure thing, so we could use more the new no vis, only aspect thing. This could be coupled with the special structures that will substitute nodes.
Since we are going to have less aspects, why we don't change the table to a sort of minigame were you need to link together aspects, in different quantity to find a theory? IE: warded glass would need the player to place the vitreus aspect on the outer ring (if we keep the GUI style for research), then link it to the stone (in place of tutamen), placed on the inner ring, and add cognito on the smaller ring, without linking it to other aspects, to symbolize the i-remember-my-owner thing.
Or a machine that infuse crystals with different levels of aspects (this would be a much more flexible system with your lower level of aspects). An added bonus is that this feels more magi-punk like.
I like this idea.
My spin on it would be that you gather the Aspects somehow and condense them into the Essences and then store them into containers which you then can strap 'em onto yourself in something like a bandolier and you could then tap into them for spell-usage or by tools that might require them for special features?
Perhaps the Core Pick now requires you to have at least 2pts of Fire Essence on yourself to do the L-Click proc and requires 2pts of Visum for the R-click feature?
You'd have a GUI which expands on hotkey/click that displays your Thaumturge's Bandolier and the Essence Containers in it (creating each one to expand your arsenal) and it would tell you how much of whatever Essence is in each Container and which one. This would allow for quick and easy swapping out of Essence Containers and would let us store away excess or ones we don't need right away.
You could use the Condensed Essences for spell-craft, unique item abilities, mixing to make a Essence Grenade that could duplicate certain effects, and heck we could have our own potion system or link into the pre-existing one.
The potion system, if a new one is made, could even have it's own research system! Because how on earth did we know what mushrooms and sugar do before drinking it?
These are some big changes to the mod but you have nether let us down before so i have faith in any changes you make to the mod and i would feel that you know what you are doing and any changes you make will be for the better really like the whole spell casting thing. think it need to be really balanced and the spells need to really be though out. i think i saw some one talk about a reasearch system for new postions and that i really like the idea of this like you have a notwe book and you write down the effects of added ramdon stuff to a brewing stand kinda like the way that it is handled in skyrim where the is lots of resourches and yyou have to combine them and you create a postion of unknown effects and you have to drink it to find out its effects and it wioll make you sick if its a crap potion and if ita good potion its automaticlly note down in you research note book. cant wait to see what you implement and how is implemented so thanks for the update.
The limited amount of aspects is really good as some of them were not much used and crowd up in the phials chest... less aspects means that all of them are essential and I like that (I will not drop the time aspect could be fun for some spells).
For the aspects completely take over on vis and the comeback to the TC1 worldgen I dunno what to say it could lead back to some "errors" of the past... the TC1 regression could lead to the downside of TC1 that before you could go with high tier stuff you had to find a specific world-generated structure that was at least boring and somewhat frustrating.
also the aspect to take over to vis seems like a sort of "liquid vis comeback" with different kinds of vis but wasn't that what made you drop TC2 in the first place? to me the node dynamics are fine but you need a better node management. I might come back with some other ideas later
Personally I do like the current system but I do also agree that the sheer number of aspects is at times unwieldy (I have jars in chests full of "destructive" aspects that currently I cannot use up, the non destructive ones I've dumped into the aura) so a reduction in the number of aspects would be a good idea as it would allow all aspects to be used. The aura nodes while graphically and mechanically insanely good do cause a fair amount of overhead so scrapping them would probably go a long way toward greater computational friendliness.
Ideas for funner research and also the possible method of powering your thaumaturgical endevours, there has been an idea kicked about in the TC3 thread about phenomenon based research, I kinda thought that with the scribing tools already in place it would be neat to be able to go and directly observe something to gain a theory to then research which would remove some of the lottery aspect of current research. The current research mechanic itself is fairly good at having the aspects that make up the theory make sense and you can discover the aspect required through logical thought in most cases, it is a bit of a puzzle solving mini-game in the initial phase to discover which aspects are in the theory the latter phase is more like a random lottery in that I burn X amount of resources = I gain the theory. That part of it could be done differently though exactly how I have no real idea though possibly it could require a certain amount of distilled essentia to meld with a theory before it is active.
The distilled essentia part of it fits in with the next idea I have, I like the idea of a single wand that you use to focus certain magics through (spellcasting by any other name) powered by a store of essentia you have incorporated into your own being, I don't much like the idea of an XP driven leveling system however as XP is becoming more and more a limiting factor in many mods and one of things I have always liked about Thaumcraft is it's utter disregard of XP. I would probably work more on the idea of tiered wands allowing you to access a tiered store within yourself, from an item\gameplay perspective possibly a single use focus (composed of essentia\clusters and some rare item\items) that "sets" your personal ability to store essentia or it could be an item you must have on you to power your wand.
As for powering your thaumaturgical devices a possibility would be an altar tied to a specific aspect which allows devices under that aspects research tree to function within a radius of it (small\med\large multiblock structures composed of blocks which represent the aspect and the current crystal clusters, since they just look cool) how you gain the research to set up these altars though is tied to observing a (worldgen) locality which serves as a template for your own altar (scribing tools and in the field research again).
I could see your list of aspects as enough with the addition of Eldritch (which is in opposition to everything, hey it has to come back, the alien old ones are too cool to pass up).
The opposition\affinity idea could also be more fleshed out as well, having opposing types of essentia either in your personal store or having their altars too close together (world gen localities could have a very very large range which is considered "too close" to give back the oh crap this area blows feel) could cause all kinds of interesting effects ala the current flux effects having compatible essentia altars within close proximity could have beneficial effects (a return of limited more unwieldy seals :D)
Anyway just a few ideas, what ever you do I'm certain the result will be enjoyable and unique in it's implementation since you haven't let us down yet.
I am bored, so how about these ideas.
Elements: Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Light, Dark, Life, Death, Chaos, Order.
Mortar and pestle - Used to grind out elemental essence at a 5% rate.
Natural energy nodes, 5% or less chance to spawn in a chunk, cannot spawn within 3-10 chunks from another node, only fire, water, earth, air, nature, light, dark, and life spawn in overworld. Nether gets fire, earth, dark, chaos, and death. End gets Air, dark, death. Order is a synthetic element only obtained in experiments.
Keep the research partially, but require elemental essence to be used.
Get rid of vis, instead, use elemental nodes as power, or artificial nodes known as a fount or something similar where energy is gathered slowly.
Return forbidden and Eldritch studies.
Skeletal minions, necromantic arts and means to combat them.
Make wisps spawn near their correct nodes, maybe there is some way to collect them and harvest their energy, make them passive until provoked.
Who needs a wand, give me a staff of power and an orb of domination, heh.
Other then that, I am sadly too tired to think, might pop in later to see what happens.
I have mixed feelings about this to be honest; I'll just string my ideas (pro and con) as they come to me:
Spell-casting is played out - Don't get me wrong; I like playing the Mage in DnD ever now and then but Spell-Casting as a mechanic is over used, hard to create a unique system (Lets face it, it's Mana regardless how you get it) and will always feel off-set to the core mechanics of Minecraft.
Less lag is good - anything that does this is good for everyone so I'm all for that.
By reducing Aspects you reduce expandability - Just because you have too many aspects doesn't mean you need to fulfil a use for all of them; that's what the Modding API is there for.
Product Life-time - We had a fair amount of time to play with TC2 before support was dropped for it and after the wait for TC3 you're going to tell a lot of people "Oh I stopped working on that; no more support"? I can see a lot of people being annoyed at that. That's neither a pro or con - just an observation.
Research is great as is; people's annoyance is based on frustration not a failing in the system. It's like the people who get annoyed because they can't complete a Rubix cube - should we redesign it simply because "muggings here" can't take a few minutes more to work it out? No, we shouldn't.
Griefing - Azanor; everything is "grief-able". IC2 Wiring and Nuclear Power, Railcraft's tanks, Buildcraft's pipes, even Vanilla's redstone. Grief prevention has the same issue as Anti-Virus software - someone will always find a work-around.
I like Aura's - Your mod is the very first to come up with a valid example of "Pollution" in Minecraft - If I have any complaint is that the bad stuff is not harsh enough.
I'm not saying "Don't do TC4" - but if I was to give my balanced opinion I would say you're quitting the race before you've left the starting block. Instead of going somewhere new, try to fix up the house you've built already.
What irked me most about research is that you can only research one thing at the time.While most great discoveries are done while doing research on other stuff. So how about gaining knowledge about "aspects" while mining/harvesting. Every insight you get gets written down in your thaumonomicon (if you have it on you). Then when you get back to your base you put the thaumonomicon in your research table and figure out if the stuff you have learned may fit together to a valid recipe, by doing some thorough research on the materials you have mined/harvested.
The current style of research definitively wouldn't work with just 10 aspects. But I agree that it might be a good Idea to split Research up into multiple trees.
But I think you should keep the Tier 1 research and make it a tree called "Basic Thamaturgy", which needs certain level of progress to even unlock the other trees.
Other trees could be:
Artificing: Magic Tools and Weaponry.
Alchemy: Not sure.
Practical Thaumaturgy: Everyday objects like Levitators, Ears, Infernal Furnaces and all that stuff goes here.
Advanced Thaumaturgy: Things that affect/detect magic. Things like the current Aura Manipulation would go here. Might as well contain certain Enchants.
Additionally you might want to have certain researches to not be unlocked with research but with achieving a certain things within the Minecraft World.
To be honest, I loved the idea of having that invisible kind of resource It was rather unique to this mod. And managing Auraand nodes was fun. I also think that having to use 2 resources was actually a good thing. One tanible (as it were simply various objects) and one untouchable resource.
I also wouldn't care too much about griefing. As someone already mentioned, once you care too much you also start limiting the fun a player can have.
I am also ot sure how you want to make things like the Arcane Bore and the Infernal Furnace without the Vis around.
"Mana" based casting
I am again not sure on this one. It sound kinda cool, but Mana based casting kinda conflicts with the idea of tool/weapon wands. I guess those would be gone then. Your system seems Invoker/Magicka-esque with a few base elements and 2 instances. with 10 base elements this would already bring you up to 55 combinations (with repeating the element and without caring for the order in which they are selected). I'll mention why this might be a bad thing later on in a segment about Flux.
While you didn't mention it yourself, wanted to remind you of my disconcern of the fact that we have both Tier-based Golems and Core based Golems. This just doesn't seem right to me. You might want to unify the Golem system.
While Flux was a cool idea, the sheer amount of various Flux types created a problem of having a fitting Flux effect for every one of it. You've shot yourself in the foot with this.This is the same mistake you've done with the Seal system and I feel like you might be making with the Mana based Spell casting system.
And the current Flux doesn't feel dangerous enough. Especially if compared to the TC2 Taint.
Those really need your help. Sideway Levitators should really be a thing. Pushing (Green) and Pulling (Yellow) Entities. i also think that the range on the fall reduction should be doubled. If you currently make a max range elevator up and then want to create a safe elevator down you'll have to put a really low roof.
Will edit, once I remember more.
But I guess Thaumcraft 4 will be a good mod (just like all the other TC's
You know what i want in thaumcraft. More ruins, Signs that you weren't the first one to discover the
Art of Taum.
Maybe something like abandoned temples and complexes. Floating island magically suspended, long lost secrets, plans and mechanisms.
A large crater with crystal spires flowing from the center, Great vortices of arcane power invisible to the naked eye
Ancient soul wells, creators long since lost to time.(anyone remember in LoTR, when Minas Morgul lit up and that sickly green vortex spire appeared, yeah something like that vortex is what i imagine a soul well to look like).
As for spellcasting, I imagine a Thaumcrafty "gun"(probably more of a cannon) of sorts That condenses and then expells a projectile/beam of Pure awesome energy/aspect.
But whatever, I'm pretty sure ThaumCraft is going to be awesome(Thaumsome?) either way, So good luck.
My only issues with TC3 in all honesty was how much resources got wasted wasted in the name of 'research' and the aspects fluctuating between being reaaaally easy to obtain or stupidly hard/awkward (Feathers I am looking at you.)
Spellcasting seems kinda cool but honestly you might just be better off expanding the staff collection and giving us a way to recharge them.
Alternatively we could create spell tomes similar to Terraria or Castlevania: Portrait of ruin (That one even conjured the spells from within the tome)
Nodes I liked but really served only to confuse and/or frustrate me until I boxed mine off,
Wisps are really awkward foes unless you have a lightning rod :/
What do you want to change with Aspects
I think reducing the amount of Aspects is a terrible idea. One of my favorite aspects of Thaumcraft is the sheer amount of potential directions to go, both for the core mod, and for those who may consider extending said Mod via the API. The sheer complexity of Thaumcraft, and promises of further complexity make it one of my favorite Mods to play with, and has inspired a couple of interesting lines of thinking regarding Mod updates.
One of my many projects involves finding Mods that are in common circulation and making them 'Thaumcraft compatible', because I found the diversity of the aspects so interesting, and finding the rarer ones has been one of the many things to get me out of my comfortable village, and into the depths of the world and across the bounds of worlds into the nether... The "You can't get that here" direction.
What do you want to change with Auras
My big desire for these has always been for there to be more *types* of them. They're an amazing and interesting facet, and those on my server talk about them all the time. It's always fun to go looking for them, or to find them by accident. There was a mutual groan when we realized that our village had decided to set up camp not near one, but two unstable nodes, and one regular node. They are the subject of much discussion.
Regarding Viz and Essentia, again, I've always loved that there were two requirements for creation. The Viz to power the magic, and the essentia to shape it. If one must change one of my favorite aspects of Thaumcraft, perhaps you can go the direction of giving the individual nodes essentia aspects themselves, and making it possible to tilt the direction of these nodes aspects. See that pool of Lava? There's likely a Node over it attuned to Earth/Fire, that autumn forest glade? Seasons, Plant, Lignum, etc.
I'll touch on this again below, but...
I love the fact that Thaumcraft is not swords-and-sorcery magic. It's Artificery, it is shaping the bounds of the universe through Alchemical style magic. Aspects of this and twists of that warped together to create something altogether different. Nothing is self-powered, you are altering the reality of the universe around you, not flinging fireballs from your hands.
So basically, my thought wrapped up is: "Doing away with Aura's completely alters the feel of Thaumcraft, and Thaumcraft is pretty fantastic as is. Alter them a little, make more varieties that alter how the thaumaturge interacts with their environment, and make different perils in destabilizing the different types."
What do you want to change with Research?
Going with my above statement, I would think keeping the aspects, and turning down the path of Alchemical experimentation would be good. Using the tools and processes of Alchemy, the Thaumaturge would have to extract the vital essences of the components of the world around them, and experiment with THOSE to learn new things. These would also be used to focus the Vis focused by the Thaumaturge into shaping the things they desire.
Ok, if you are getting rid of vis, what will power our stuff?
This whole section saddens me greatly, as Thaumcraft has been one of the greatest encouragements to dispose of XP entirely. Trying to get a Mod put together that works the standard enchantments into Thaumcraft and does away with the in-game XP completely. It's always felt tacked on, and Thaumcraft is, at least, complete and well-thought-through.
Sticking to items as a focus and channel for Vis and Aspects is part of what gives Thaumcraft it's feel for me. And also what makes it feel very minecrafty.
RE: Griefing of Nodes
Unfortunately trying to mod something to be griefproof is... nearly impossible.
We have officially banned Thaumaturgical experimentation within 500 blocks of our population center on our server. Our Thaumaturges have built their labs in the distance, because the common townspeople will have none of them. We don't want their fallout. This truth actually helped shaped our community and local area, and has added a great deal of fun to our server.
"... That's a wisp... Have you been experimenting near here?!" - Actual quote.
The thaumaturges also get called for problem solving. "There's this really nice place I'd like to build... We also think it also happens to contain an unstable node.. Could you help me deal with this?" And off we go to remove that node to make the area safer.
So by trying to make them less 'griefable', it would also serve to make them less interesting.
My opinion is, keep the aspects, keep the nodes, but expand on the concept. Increase the number of potential fallout effects from Flux, because Flux is awesome. Give Nodes more aspects, make altering the aspect balance of your local node something worthwhile and interesting, steer away from spell-casting as 'Sword and Sorcery' spell-casting, and lean more towards the 'Magic side of Steampunk'. Where mad science is still very much a thing, but you're messing with the fundaments of the universe, rather than steam and clockwork.
You seem to have started down the road of Alchemy, with research, keep playing with it. Add the tools, make them used in research, and managing the chemistry set mid-process part of the game. In a way, the aspect system already adds a game. "I need an object that produces this aspect... Now I have to go find it and bring it back." It's become one of the foundations of trade on my server, as the thaumaturges are always needing the weirdest stuff.
As far as the research table goes, give us tabs in something like the Thaumcraft journal. Each of these represents a path of research 'Golemancy', ''Ferremancy', ''Transmutation'. And have these appear as the prerequisites for them are discovered. Further, don't reveal the necessary research path to FIND that particular branch, but let that also be discovered through research.
"Golemancy requires knowledge as yet unacquired from paths A and B." Which will eventually reveal not just the path required, but what level, much like you occasionally get random aspects in research now.
Completely agree. Less aspects - bad idea Research - good as it now, but adding more mini game features would be awesome. Like combining aspects in certain order after discovering them. Thaumonomicon - after adding a lot of research it become inconvenient to use Nodes - hmm.... Existence of source of magic in the world is required. It's need to be more ways to do aura manipulations, ex. change node size, move and combine. Or create your own node Flux - like was in TC2 - total corruption of area, mobs and plants, destruction and chaos ) Player cast spells - personally I don't like this idea. TC was always implementing spells via items and tools. What to do next? - more golems, more staff, all Eldrich items from TC2 and whatever ) Sky is the limit and to Infinity and beyond
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments so far.
I'd just like to comment on one thing. Some of you are suggesting that the exploration / discovery aspect will be lost with these changes. In fact, they will increase. Exponentially.
Here is an example of what I am thinking of:
Some of the world-gen features I want to add is nodes that will be conceptually similar, but different from TC3 nodes. They will each be linked to a specific aspect and spawn in appropriate areas. Air nodes will only spawn somewhere high up, fire nodes only near lava, nature nodes only in the heart of jungles, etc. Like in TC3 they can only be seen while wearing goggles.
Unlike TC3 nodes they aren't passive sources of vis. Instead you will siphon their aspect from them to use for your own ends, but the amount of essentia they contain will be finite so they can be destroyed if you empty them. Maybe they will replenish very slowly over time, but the idea is that they are something that you will need to actively look for in the world.
That is just one of the ideas I have kicking around in my head.
Another point - spells will still require wands to cast and there will still be various types of wands. What will be changing will be that while there won't be a wand of fire, there might be a wand that reduces the cost of fire spells you cast with it.
Maybe they will replenish very slowly over time, but the idea is that they are something that you will need to actively look for in the world.
Also they could be inamovable/or dependant on the enviroment, so moving them would change/alter them, so an auto-replenish wouldn't be so bad, as they could act as sources away from your base, and you would need to build "channels" to move those energies from there to your base.