And Mojang is not saying that your content is not your content. Remeber, the EULA says "Any tools you write for the Game from scratch belong to you. . Modifications to the Game ("Mods") (including pre-run Mods and in-memory Mods) and plugins for the Game also belong to you. We have the final say on what constitutes a tool/mod/plugin and what doesn‘t."
However, it is very important that the content belonging to you is not the same as having a claim to copyright the mod, you released that to Mojang via their EULA when you make your content public. The copyright of all mods, of all derivative work, for Minecraft, is rolled into Minecraft's copyright.
Which is where my main point comes in. We do have the right to copyright our mod. Under what claims does the Minecraft EULA state that any original content written by supporters of a game belongs to the game owners? If this is the case, the EULA is clashing with basic copyright laws every citizen has. Reverting back to my analogy regarding the book others consider rubbish: the work is not a part of Mojang's Minecraft code, it does not directly use or edit Minecraft's original code, but rather it is a program that could be stand-alone. Being functional isn't a requirement for a program or work to be considered work, it is just expected. The same can be said of the code, it only expects that it will be run with Minecraft. If I wrote one million lines of code which other people see as useless because it doesn't work yet means absolutely nothing. By law I have every right to copyright that code whether it works or not since it is my original work.
This is why "standard" EULAs and other legal documents are wrapped in so many pages of legalese that the average person's eyes glaze over at the first sentence. Such documents are usually quite clear an succinct in their language, leaving no leeway for arguing about meaning when read by another lawyer.
Mojang's attempt to express their EULA colloquially has led to the multitude of interpretations seen these past couple of days and is partially generating the bad juju seen in the forums recently. If they had left the language to the lawyers I don't think the reaction would have been as great.
When trying to write legal documents in plain language you open up each and every word to arguments about actual intent of meaning as opposed to interpretation, as witnessed by Bill Clinton's "definition of the word 'is' " defense argument in the late 80s, after all.
Alright, I suppose that settles Forge, Bukkit, and oddly enough, resource packs. That last one could actually be a can of worms itself, as it would imply that resource pack creators need the right to grant Mojang the permissions required by the EULA - and thus packs containing GPL or Creative Commons content (for example, Kevin MacLeod's music, or packs which add royalty-free weather sounds) may be in violation of the EULA, even without violating any copyright.
Edit: I had a much larger post here regarding this issue, but I am going to replace it with clarification I got after the matter.
"User vs provider.
MCedit uses Pygame, it does not provide code to Pygame that would create the "down stream cascade" link necessitating handoff of rights.
Same with Bukkit and Worldpainter with GSON, SQLite, MySQL, SnakeYAML, and Install4J.
Which is where my main point comes in. We do have the right to copyright our mod. Under what claims does the Minecraft EULA state that any original content written by supporters of a game belongs to the game owners? If this is the case, the EULA is clashing with basic copyright laws every citizen has. Reverting back to my analogy regarding the book others consider rubbish: the work is not a part of Mojang's Minecraft code, it does not directly use or edit Minecraft's original code, but rather it is a program that could be stand-alone. Being functional isn't a requirement for a program or work to be considered work, it is just expected. The same can be said of the code, it only expects that it will be run with Minecraft. If I wrote one million lines of code which other people see as useless because it doesn't work yet means absolutely nothing. By law I have every right to copyright that code whether it works or not since it is my original work.
Mojang's lawyers, who have all paid a lot of money and spent a lot of years going through school in order to be software copyright lawyers, seem to disagree with you. The problem here is that you are trying to apply normal copyright to mods. By law modifications to software, no mater how you say it interacts with the game and no matter the amount of Mojang's code is within the mod, are considered derivative works, and by law copyrights are not inherently given to derivative works as opposed to non-derivative works. As the owners of the original work, Mojang is using their legal right to claim all public mods as part of their copyright, furthermore any content that is made on or through their original work is subject to the original work's EULA that states that Mojang reserves the right to say what constitutes a tool/mod/plugin for their original work, which will slot it into derivative work status. This is something you agree to when you make the conscious decision to release content that is made to run on or through Minecraft public.
However, be my guest and take Mojang to court to argue this out if you feel that their copyright lawyers are that wrong about how copyright law works.
Edit: I actually missed the last four posts before finishing this. Sorry if I missed something important.
Now, I did read everything new, but it's twelve AM here and I've had a long day so I may have missed points, hidden meanings, etc; but I feel I should post something since I started this.
First thing, Mods needing to be open sourced:
When did I ever say that? When is "open source" even mentioned in Minecraft EULA? People need to get the notion out of their head that open source is part of this issue. It's not!
Mods getting copied:
Enzer and Neko did a great job of killing that argument. I don't feel the need to comment otherwise.
Tracking user data is, for one thing, illegal. Restricting malicious modders without killing other modders is more complicated than just "let us censor you or just leave". Your argument is just as valid if you are voting for naked search and capture on demand at an airport security. And lastly, players like you have no sympathy in the effort of making a mod.
As I understand, Neko is a modder so I think he knows what goes on in making a mod. Hell I've never made a mod but I know how hard it is from just a few tutorials and a bit of Java myself. It can take me hours to make a simple JOptionPane program, so the amount of work going into a mod must be tremendous.
As for the rest of your post, I think he knows all that and is just making a point. That whole situation could have happened if SirSenger desired to go deeper than worlds so it is a perfectly valid plausibility. We can hope modders will be nicer than that but as of now we do not have that safety. Hell, I could boot up minecraft right now, get the latest version of something and find out that the modder made a present just for me to wipe my hard drive. At this point I bet that code exists and is waiting for me.
For us to end all this hostility, there must be a purge.
WolfieMario:
I'm sorry but I'm too tired to read through that last post and come up with answers to your questions.
I think that covers everything big that cropped up in the last few hours. Now for something else.
The community seems to be losing sight of what I have started our path on. We are getting caught on petty things like open source or closed source, weather sub programs count as a mod, and EULA being unclear. These are not the issue we are facing.
The main issue is the toxicity of the modded community. It needs to be purged. Some modders are feeling over privileged due to their mod(s) taking off, leaving others of equal if not greater quality in their wake. They feel too entitled and have to be knocked from their high horse. For some of them, if they don't get their ego stroked regularly they throw a fit, and the scenario Neko outlined could become a real event. If that happened what would Mojang do? Go on, speculate.
We are going to lose some of our best mods. I am sure of this. Which ones is difficult to say, but their will be a loss. These loses should not be mourned like RedPower was, they should be celebrated! Every mod that steps down is a mod we don't have to fear. Same goes for the mods that leave us forever.
Our modded community has been labeled as one of the worst game community's out there. That is not because of a ton of bad modders, but because of a few. These rotten apples need to be expelled or cured before something happens that all of minecraft feels the repercussions.
Now time for bed, I may not be back for a while, I have a busy day tomorrow today.
Which is where my main point comes in. We do have the right to copyright our mod. Under what claims does the Minecraft EULA state that any original content written by supporters of a game belongs to the game owners? If this is the case, the EULA is clashing with basic copyright laws every citizen has. Reverting back to my analogy regarding the book others consider rubbish: the work is not a part of Mojang's Minecraft code, it does not directly use or edit Minecraft's original code, but rather it is a program that could be stand-alone. Being functional isn't a requirement for a program or work to be considered work, it is just expected. The same can be said of the code, it only expects that it will be run with Minecraft. If I wrote one million lines of code which other people see as useless because it doesn't work yet means absolutely nothing. By law I have every right to copyright that code whether it works or not since it is my original work.
About your book argument, there is another form of literature that mods resemble much better than "a book others find rubbish". Fanfiction.
In the US we have this: According to current United States copyright, copyright owners have the exclusive right "to prepare derivative works based upon [their] copyrighted work." A derivative work is any work, including fanfiction, based upon one or more preexisting works.
A minecraft mod is very much a fanfiction. The modder is telling an alternate/expanded story using the canon characters (blocks, items, mobs) and in many cases their own original characters (blocks, items, mobs) interacting together.
Sure "tin ore-chan" doesn't tackle-glomp "cobblestone-san" in a highschool hallway, but that's because no one here knows how to write good bad fanfiction.
Mojang's lawyers, who have all paid a lot of money and spent a lot of years going through school in order to be software copyright lawyers, seem to disagree with you. The problem here is that you are trying to apply normal copyright to mods. By law modifications to software, no mater how you say it interacts with the game and no matter the amount of Mojang's code is within the mod, are considered derivative works, and by law copyrights are not inherently given to derivative works as opposed to non-derivative works. As the owners of the original work, Mojang is using their legal right to claim all public mods as part of their copyright, furthermore any content that is made on or through their original work is subject to the original work's EULA that states that Mojang reserves the right to say what constitutes a tool/mod/plugin for their original work, which will slot it into derivative work status. This is something you agree to when you make the conscious decision to release content that is made to run on or through Minecraft public.
However, be my guest and take Mojang to court to argue this out if you feel that their copyright lawyers are that wrong about how copyright law works.
I am not applying base copyright laws, I am applying logistics to support what I believe a court would uphold in an event of a case such as this. You don't seem to understand, mods aren't a modification to the original code at all, through the use of Forge they are more like patches. If a mod contains zero code from the game and doesn't directly interact with the code, by definition, it is not a derivative work. If it is somehow, miraculously considered a derivative work of Minecraft then Mojang could claim practically anything as a derivative work...
About your book argument, there is another form of literature that mods resemble much better than "a book others find rubbish". Fanfiction.
In the US we have this: According to current United States copyright, copyright owners have the exclusive right "to prepare derivative works based upon [their] copyrighted work." A derivative work is any work, including fanfiction, based upon one or more preexisting works.
A minecraft mod is very much a fanfiction. The modder is telling an alternate/expanded story using the canon characters (blocks, items, mobs) and in many cases their own original characters (blocks, items, mobs) interacting together.
Sure "tin ore-chan" doesn't tackle-glomp "cobblestone-san" in a highschool hallway, but that's because no one here knows how to write good bad fanfiction.
Fanfiction often fall under such ruling due to the fact that they use not only the same title/name to display what the work is derived from, but they also use the same characters, locations, names, etc. which makes it clear that it is derivative of said show/movie/game/whatever. Programs and code, on the other hand, don't follow the same path as Fanfiction. When it comes to code it's all written by the programmer often in a unique way. Back to being analogous to a book, think of it as writing a book inspired by Harry Potter, but every event, character, location, name, etc is different. It becomes a work of it's own which cannot be claimed by anyone but the writer due to it being entirely different than any other work.
Given not much of this matters to me seeing as I keep my mods open-source anyway, I still stand with all previous statements I have made.
I am not applying base copyright laws, I am applying logistics to support what I believe a court would uphold in an event of a case such as this. You don't seem to understand, mods aren't a modification to the original code at all, through the use of Forge they are more like patches. If a mod contains zero code from the game and doesn't directly interact with the code, by definition, it is not a derivative work. If it is somehow, miraculously considered a derivative work of Minecraft then Mojang could claim practically anything as a derivative work...
Your definition of the term "mod" and "modification" is way too narrow. Derivative work also classifies mods and modifications as anything that modifies how a program operates/functions/works. Mods modify the content of Minecraft, they modify how the game itself works in game. Mods do not have to modify the base code in order for Mojang to claim rights. That is why the EULA does not specify changes to the code, but instead uses the terms mods, modifications and plugins. Again, why you might be trying to be applying "logistics" to this situation, you are not paying attention to the laws which supports Mojang's claim and are directly ignoring the basis behind the EULA makes these claims. This is why Marc has stated on his twitter "The next few times someone says copyright, I'm going to point at the EULA" because it is written by people who are educated in this area and whose job requires them to know exactly what they are talking about, else risk getting their client into serious legal harm.
I think the source of contention here is the addition of copyright laws into a discussion that really doesn't have much to do with it. What is actually here is a Contract Law discussion, as that's exactly what an EULA is, it's a contract that you agree to before you play the game. While yes, it's not right that it can be worded to suspend your natural rights, you agreed to it by continuing to play the game legally. So long as you continue to play the game legally, you are subject to the contract of the EULA. What does this mean legally speaking? It means that you have no grounds for dispute unless the EULA is found to be unlawful. Whereas with Copyright Law you can argue from dusk till dawn about who is right and why, and never really have definitive proof otherwise, Contract Law is rather black and white. You are either in agreement with the EULA and obey it, or you are not. If you are not obeying the EULA, then you are subject to legal action, and it's really that simple.
To be honest though, you really shouldn't be tacking on copyright notices at the bottom of your posts when you submit a mod, as there is really nothing you can do to challenge someone over it, as previously stated multiple times within this thread.
Let's be very clear about something. I will place it in slightly-larger-than-normal font size in order to emphasize it.
Modders are not allowed to dictate who can and cannot use their mod, for any purpose. If you doubt this, then please try taking the makers of a particularly intransigent modpack to court for copyright infringement.
All the debating and pseudo-legalistic jargon and hypothetical situations in the world will not change the fact that if you attempt to enforce your "right" to have your mod excluded from a modpack or any other unauthorized use, you'll be lucky if you don't have to pay the other party's legal fees.
This is the strongest point in the minecraft EULA concerning mod copyrights. In that, the biggest line is: “you must also let us permit other people to use, copy, modify and adapt your content.” Right here means that if you make content available for the game of Minecraft, then you lose all rights to your code. Others may steal your code and republish it without a thought to the legal consequences as there are none. They may copy sections, decompile it, and do whatever they wish with it. It is no longer yours. [Emphasis added]
Wrong.So very wrong.
It's not me saying this, it's Notch:
If you don't understand the distinction between free speech and free beer, then see Gratis versus libre.
And it's right in Mojang's EULA:
Quote from The Minecraft End User Licence Agreement »
Any tools you write for the Game from scratch belong to you. Modifications to the Game ("Mods") (including pre-run Mods and in-memory Mods) and plugins for the Game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, as long as you don't sell them for money / try to make money from them.
People are confused by the word "content". It doesn't refer to code. It refers to ideas and concepts. Mojang has set up the EULA so it can continue to cherry-pick ideas from mods to incorporate into Minecraft without getting sued. In the cases where it incorporated a modder's code into Minecraft a separate negotiation took place to cover that, but without permission to use the code it would have needed to re-implement the concept from scratch.
Where the EULA says "…you must also let us permit other people to use, copy, modify and adapt your content" it's not talking about code. It's talking about ideas for things in the game like items and blocks. I wrote about this two years ago in A statement on Minecraft mods copying features from each other.
You say of a modder's work, "Others may steal your code…it is no longer yours." Not only does the EULA not say this, but think about the ramifications. Why would people continue working if they don't own their output? Ownership of one's output is the basis of the free/open source movement, as the creator of the code chooses the license.
Another ramification: this attitude has driven people to stop modding. "Oh, but someone else will take their place," is the common rebuttal. But people aren't commodities, and the loss of a creative and skilled modder hurts. My favorite modder, Eloraam, quit, and while there are substitutes for RedPower 2 they're just not the same. Mods aren't commodity items, they're creative works and their quality varies. Due to this latest nonsense a number of modders have quit just in the last few days.
It's notable that you think that Mojang should own its code but modders shouldn't own theirs. Where's the movement to open up the source code to Minecraft itself? After all, Notch promised to do it!
People who are attempting to convince others that Minecraft's EULA means that all mods are open source are not only hurting the modding community but the free/open source software movement itself. The free/open source software movement is based on it being a voluntary choice—this mandatory decree will scare people off.
I'm a proponent of free/open source software; I think it would be great if more modders chose to license their code this way. I am a long-time user of free/open source—I'm typing this on a Linux system and years ago I worked at a company that was an early supporter of the Free Software Foundation. The people misinterpreting Minecraft's EULA to force people's mods into the public domain are severely misguided.
Let's be very clear about something. I will place it in slightly-larger-than-normal font size in order to emphasize it.
~snip~
While that may be true, it's a shame that some people (not in reference to the person quoted) seem to feel the need to be jerks about it. Yes, modders do NOT have the 'right' to prevent others from using their mods however that person wants, including placing it in a mod pack, and those who have taken extra measures to ensure their will is enforced via the injection of malicious code have certainly over-stepped their bounds.
On the other hand, what ever happened to common courtesy and respect? Is it that difficult to ask for permission? The author didn't give it, so what's the big deal? Just don't include that mod then. So what if the author will get tons more downloads if included in that pack; if the author wanted that 'benefit', they would have given permission. While I personally don't understand why an author would not give permission, and my own mods are all open source, I also think it is a sad state of affairs that people have no qualms about using others' work however they see fit regardless of the author's wishes, even if that right is granted them by the EULA. It just feels very wrong to me.
I think Mojang has done an excellent job of not being jerks when it comes to including mod content in the original game, always discussing it with the original author and coming to some agreement, even when, as described in the EULA, they are well within their 'rights' to use whatever mod content is out there however they please without so much as a thank you.
So let's all follow Mojang's example and respect each other as human beings. That goes for mod authors, mod users, modpack creators, and everybody else out there. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Seems people can't figure that out anymore.
EDIT: Wholeheartedly agree with the post above me ^^
Sorry, but I must disagree with you. Just because you personally have no problem with someone stealing your work and claiming credit for it does not mean that everyone else should feel the same, nor does it imply that they are terrible people for wanting recognition for their hard work.
That's very commendable of you to be so open with your code, but please try to understand not all people feel the same way; even people who open source their mods generally still like to be credited for it when used elsewhere, despite granting anyone and everyone free access to and permission to use and modify said code. I make my mods open source, and I hope people will use them, use the code, modify it, etc., but I would also be pretty ed if they didn't credit me as the original author, because I have put a lot of work into making it. Is that petty of me? Perhaps. But it's also basic human nature to want to reap the rewards, whatever they may be, of work that one does. No one goes to work every day just to give away their entire paycheck, even if they only earned pennies on the hour. The amount of money involved doesn't matter, nor does it even matter if there is any money involved. I hope you can understand that not everyone feels it is ridiculous to expect credit for work done, even while at the same time wishing to make something for the benefit and enjoyment of the community. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Alright, on Adf.ly links.
...sigh...
With the new updates and fixes to Adf.ly, adf.ly blocker plugins no longer work and having an adblock will cause adf.ly's countdown to not go down unless you disable it. Even my ANTIVIRUS blocks adf.ly ads, because they are all virus-ridden crocks of -CENSORED BY FORUM SOFTWARE-. This makes it nigh impossible to download mods from the minecraft forum. Why is this a bad thing? Because
A. People aren't getting what they wanted (The mod)
B. Adf.ly is a form of forced donation if there are no alternate downloads. For example, when I tried to download Thaumcraft 4, the adf.ly link would not let me download the mod because McAfee antivirus was blocking the ad.
Do you know what I do instead? I download a modpack, unzip it, extract the file, and download that into my Minecraft. It's much quicker than waiting for an Adf.ly link to load, turning off your Antivirus and Adblocker, Contacting customer support because of the virus that Adf.ly gave you with it's thousand fake download buttons, and then load the mod and find out it's incompatible with -Any mod ever-
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Note. This account is deprecated due to past bigotry in posts that cannot be deleted.
There are so many developers that do mods now that it's very difficult to protect ideas. The copyright laws are still in place, obviously, so if you have drawn a texture or made a model or something like that, that belongs to you and you have the copyrights of that. So people may not just freely steal the work you have done.
Jeb uttered these words on stage at Minecon in front of hundreds of people attending a panel aimed at mod developers. It's doesn't get more public than this.
Either Mojang has changed it's policy without informing mod developers so publicly, or you're wrong.
Has the EULA been changed now or are you still referring to Marc's comment that it might be suject to be changed in the near future?
The current EULA, that was upated on Dec 11 2013, is what we are referring to, this EULA came out a full year afer Jeb's speech in 2012, while the legalese of the EULA was still being drafted. The only thing that is not covered in this current EULA was that Mojang didn't cover a section of malicious code and Mojang is still having internal talks about adf.ly, these will be addressed in the next revision of the EULA. Beyound that everything that has been discussed, be it what constitutes as content, what rights does a modder have over their content, what rights Mojang has over content, and what rights all users have over content that have been extended to them by Mojang, is all covered in the EULA and has been further clarified by Marc.
However there are a lot of side issues people have been trying to bring up as defenses against the EULA (the whole Open Source thing, again, Mojang is not dictating that you have to have your mod open source, however they are also saying that people might do things you might not like to your mod, like decompile it anyway, and that people have the right to do so). Another issue I see people try to bring up to muddle the discussion is permissions debate, which again, is overridden by the fact the EULA dictates that you cannot dictate how someone uses your content. Another side debate people bring up to muddle this discussion is "But what if someone claims my work" when time and time again those same people have proven the point that even before there was nothing you could do legally. There are also people who try to bring up Moral debates, which is stupid, since morals change from person to person.. I agree that people should give credit to modders, but you cannot force people to. All of these are nonsense arguments designed to cloud the main topic and the main point we are trying to get across is that the community has been sticking its fingers in its ears going "Nope Nope Nope" when Mojang has clarified that:
1) Public mods extend certain rights to Mojang and modders must keep that in mind if they choose to release their mods. This overrides any license or copyright you might tack onto your mod. If you disagree with this either argue with Mojang's lawyers or do not release your mods publicly.
2) Mojang extends rights to users to use mods however they want, Mojang claims via their EULA that modders cannot dictate how a user uses their mod. This again overrides any license or copyright you might tack onto your mod. If you disagree with this either argue with Mojang's lawyers or do not release your mods publicly.
3) Mojang will not stand for people implementing Malicious Code since it targets their customer base. This was meant to be covered in the EULA originally and will be fully adapted as its own section in the near future.
Well, git repository can be quite easily edited (https://github.com/mnn/fake-date). So there can be trivially created on a first look compelling evidence.
I think modders should have the right to say who can use their work (and even how) [becoming a modder changed my viewpoint on this topic]. I don't know how this derived work works - as others wrote, how can a resouce pack or mod textures which are not based on Minecraft art can be considered derived work? This way Mojang could claim any (block) texture 16x16 pixels (and its multiples), or not? Even though my mods have source code available, I don't believe it's correct to force anybody to go open source with their work (I know EULA doesn't force this, but some people here are suggesting it).
A lot of users say that this will make modding scene better, but if too many devs go away, there won't be enough devs to "just" update and support all the great big old mods, not talking about creating new content (or new big mods). I'm with cpw on this one.
And what about the forum post? Can you fake that too?
Did you even read this thread? Or even the last post on the previous page? We are NOT trying to get mods to be open source, we know we are losing old mods. Out with the old and in wit the new. In the short term this is going to hurt the modded community but in the long term it will grow into a stable one.
It's notable that you think that Mojang should own its code but modders shouldn't own theirs. Where's the movement to open up the source code to Minecraft itself? After all, Notch promised to do it!
People who are attempting to convince others that Minecraft's EULA means that all mods are open source are not only hurting the modding community but the free/open source software movement itself. The free/open source software movement is based on it being a voluntary choice—this mandatory decree will scare people off.
I'm a proponent of free/open source software; I think it would be great if more modders chose to license their code this way. I am a long-time user of free/open source—I'm typing this on a Linux system and years ago I worked at a company that was an early supporter of the Free Software Foundation. The people misinterpreting Minecraft's EULA to force people's mods into the public domain are severely misguided.
Minecraft is a real game selling for real cash. It is also an original work hence why Mojang can own their code.
There is no "movement" to open any source code, just a few people who got the motive of this skewed. We are NOT after source code! This is not about source code, it is about stopping modders from being able to bully the rest of the community.
Sorry, but I must disagree with you. Just because you personally have no problem with someone stealing your work and claiming credit for it does not mean that everyone else should feel the same, nor does it imply that they are terrible people for wanting recognition for their hard work.
That's very commendable of you to be so open with your code, but please try to understand not all people feel the same way; even people who open source their mods generally still like to be credited for it when used elsewhere, despite granting anyone and everyone free access to and permission to use and modify said code. I make my mods open source, and I hope people will use them, use the code, modify it, etc., but I would also be pretty ed if they didn't credit me as the original author, because I have put a lot of work into making it. Is that petty of me? Perhaps. But it's also basic human nature to want to reap the rewards, whatever they may be, of work that one does. No one goes to work every day just to give away their entire paycheck, even if they only earned pennies on the hour. The amount of money involved doesn't matter, nor does it even matter if there is any money involved. I hope you can understand that not everyone feels it is ridiculous to expect credit for work done, even while at the same time wishing to make something for the benefit and enjoyment of the community. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The point is not his personal view, it is that that needs to be the view of this community. We cannot continue to support modders who view this otherwise. We are going to lose mods, and in the short term this is going to hurt the modded community but in the long run, it will be better as new mods come out to replace the lost. We are losing some of the creative minds, but their ideas will always linger and eventually be replaced. It's going to take time, but make no mistake, the community will recover and be better off.
Has the EULA been changed now or are you still referring to Marc's comment that it might be suject to be changed in the near future?
To expand on what Enzer said with "All of these are nonsense arguments designed to cloud the main topic", the main topic is that modders are bullying the community into thinking they are God's gift to us, and we have to stop that.
It's no wonder why we are considered one of the most volatile community's out there.
The community seems to be losing sight of what I have started our path on. We are getting caught on petty things like open source or closed source, weather sub programs count as a mod, and EULA being unclear. These are not the issue we are facing.
The main issue is the toxicity of the modded community. It needs to be purged. Some modders are feeling over privileged due to their mod(s) taking off, leaving others of equal if not greater quality in their wake. They feel too entitled and have to be knocked from their high horse. For some of them, if they don't get their ego stroked regularly they throw a fit, and the scenario Neko outlined could become a real event. If that happened what would Mojang do? Go on, speculate.
We are going to lose some of our best mods. I am sure of this. Which ones is difficult to say, but their will be a loss. These loses should not be mourned like RedPower was, they should be celebrated! Every mod that steps down is a mod we don't have to fear. Same goes for the mods that leave us forever.
A purge? Who put you in charge? This is the most reprehensible thing I've read in a long time.
You don't heal a toxic community by engaging in toxic behavior yourself.
At least now your motives are clear. And completely dishonorable.
A purge? Who put you in charge? This is the most reprehensible thing I've read in a long time.
You don't heal a toxic community by engaging in toxic behavior yourself.
At least now your motives are clear. And completely dishonorable.
No, but you do do it by making people aware Mojang's intents and you do do it by making Mojang aware of the gross misuse of the permission to mod they have given modders. All anybody in this thread has done has reported examples of the worst of the community to Mojang and has spread what Mojang themselves has said. The bad apples in the modding community have brought Mojang's foot down through their actions and now everyone is going to deal with the consequences of what that entails because a few modders couldn't stop bullying people and couldn't stop attacking Mojang's paying customers.
If you cannot see this then I do not what to say to you.
The point is not his personal view, it is that that needs to be the view of this community. We cannot continue to support modders who view this otherwise. We are going to lose mods, and in the short term this is going to hurt the modded community but in the long run, it will be better as new mods come out to replace the lost. We are losing some of the creative minds, but their ideas will always linger and eventually be replaced. It's going to take time, but make no mistake, the community will recover and be better off.
I highly disagree that his attitude should be the view of the community; who are you or I to force a single view on everyone? Each person has the right to their own opinion, whatever that may be, and we should be respectful of that. If someone doesn't care about other people claiming his / her work as their own, I have no problem with that; if someone wants to be credited for work they did, I will respect that, too.
To expand on what Enzer said with "All of these are nonsense arguments designed to cloud the main topic", the main topic is that modders are bullying the community into thinking they are God's gift to us, and we have to stop that.
Firstly, please refrain from lumping all modders into a single category, as every modder is an individual who exhibits individual behavior, reprehensible or otherwise. Secondly, the issue of bullying and disrespect is not a one-way street, as plenty of modders have been on the receiving end as well, though surely not to the same extent as having malicious code delivered to them.
You seem to be creating a false dichotomy between 'us', i.e. the community, and 'them', i.e. the modders, when modders are also a part of the community, and everyone in the community is an individual. If an individual, modder or otherwise, is disrespectful of others or worse, then I would hope the appropriate authorities as well as individuals in the community would take appropriate action, either by banning said user or simply ignoring them.
If the issue is truly about bullying, then everyone needs to step up and be a better person, which includes respecting others' opinions and hopefully how one's mod is used. And of course, modders shouldn't be douches about how their mods can be used, and people using the mods shouldn't be douches about how they use it.
No, but you do do it by making people aware Mojang's intents…
It's Mojang's job to do that. We've paid them for it. You don't speak for Mojang.
I tweeted earlier to the effect that Mojang has been ignoring & neglecting modders for years. What we're seeing now is the result of Mojang's lack of guidance to the mod community. It's been two years and the mod API is still a long way off and Mojang has little engagement with the modding community.
Every community has bad apples. Since there have been no rules, people have been able to do what they want. I'm not defending those modders by any means. But I don't see the "gross misuse" you mention. What's happened is that there are a few mods that people want to use where the modder has done things to limit its use for arbitrary reasons in a user-hostile manner. Because Mojang had set no rules.
Instead of players and modders fighting we should be working together to hold Mojang's feet to the fire to deliver the mod API.
Blame Mojang, not modders. It's healthier for the community.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Retired StaffWhich is where my main point comes in. We do have the right to copyright our mod. Under what claims does the Minecraft EULA state that any original content written by supporters of a game belongs to the game owners? If this is the case, the EULA is clashing with basic copyright laws every citizen has. Reverting back to my analogy regarding the book others consider rubbish: the work is not a part of Mojang's Minecraft code, it does not directly use or edit Minecraft's original code, but rather it is a program that could be stand-alone. Being functional isn't a requirement for a program or work to be considered work, it is just expected. The same can be said of the code, it only expects that it will be run with Minecraft. If I wrote one million lines of code which other people see as useless because it doesn't work yet means absolutely nothing. By law I have every right to copyright that code whether it works or not since it is my original work.
This is why "standard" EULAs and other legal documents are wrapped in so many pages of legalese that the average person's eyes glaze over at the first sentence. Such documents are usually quite clear an succinct in their language, leaving no leeway for arguing about meaning when read by another lawyer.
Mojang's attempt to express their EULA colloquially has led to the multitude of interpretations seen these past couple of days and is partially generating the bad juju seen in the forums recently. If they had left the language to the lawyers I don't think the reaction would have been as great.
When trying to write legal documents in plain language you open up each and every word to arguments about actual intent of meaning as opposed to interpretation, as witnessed by Bill Clinton's "definition of the word 'is' " defense argument in the late 80s, after all.
Edit: I had a much larger post here regarding this issue, but I am going to replace it with clarification I got after the matter.
"User vs provider.
MCedit uses Pygame, it does not provide code to Pygame that would create the "down stream cascade" link necessitating handoff of rights.
Same with Bukkit and Worldpainter with GSON, SQLite, MySQL, SnakeYAML, and Install4J.
Remember, cascades go down, not up."
Mojang's lawyers, who have all paid a lot of money and spent a lot of years going through school in order to be software copyright lawyers, seem to disagree with you. The problem here is that you are trying to apply normal copyright to mods. By law modifications to software, no mater how you say it interacts with the game and no matter the amount of Mojang's code is within the mod, are considered derivative works, and by law copyrights are not inherently given to derivative works as opposed to non-derivative works. As the owners of the original work, Mojang is using their legal right to claim all public mods as part of their copyright, furthermore any content that is made on or through their original work is subject to the original work's EULA that states that Mojang reserves the right to say what constitutes a tool/mod/plugin for their original work, which will slot it into derivative work status. This is something you agree to when you make the conscious decision to release content that is made to run on or through Minecraft public.
However, be my guest and take Mojang to court to argue this out if you feel that their copyright lawyers are that wrong about how copyright law works.
Now, I did read everything new, but it's twelve AM here and I've had a long day so I may have missed points, hidden meanings, etc; but I feel I should post something since I started this.
First thing, Mods needing to be open sourced:
When did I ever say that? When is "open source" even mentioned in Minecraft EULA? People need to get the notion out of their head that open source is part of this issue. It's not!
Mods getting copied:
Enzer and Neko did a great job of killing that argument. I don't feel the need to comment otherwise.
As I understand, Neko is a modder so I think he knows what goes on in making a mod. Hell I've never made a mod but I know how hard it is from just a few tutorials and a bit of Java myself. It can take me hours to make a simple JOptionPane program, so the amount of work going into a mod must be tremendous.
As for the rest of your post, I think he knows all that and is just making a point. That whole situation could have happened if SirSenger desired to go deeper than worlds so it is a perfectly valid plausibility. We can hope modders will be nicer than that but as of now we do not have that safety. Hell, I could boot up minecraft right now, get the latest version of something and find out that the modder made a present just for me to wipe my hard drive. At this point I bet that code exists and is waiting for me.
For us to end all this hostility, there must be a purge.
WolfieMario:
I'm sorry but I'm too tired to read through that last post and come up with answers to your questions.
I think that covers everything big that cropped up in the last few hours. Now for something else.
The community seems to be losing sight of what I have started our path on. We are getting caught on petty things like open source or closed source, weather sub programs count as a mod, and EULA being unclear. These are not the issue we are facing.
The main issue is the toxicity of the modded community. It needs to be purged. Some modders are feeling over privileged due to their mod(s) taking off, leaving others of equal if not greater quality in their wake. They feel too entitled and have to be knocked from their high horse. For some of them, if they don't get their ego stroked regularly they throw a fit, and the scenario Neko outlined could become a real event. If that happened what would Mojang do? Go on, speculate.
We are going to lose some of our best mods. I am sure of this. Which ones is difficult to say, but their will be a loss. These loses should not be mourned like RedPower was, they should be celebrated! Every mod that steps down is a mod we don't have to fear. Same goes for the mods that leave us forever.
Our modded community has been labeled as one of the worst game community's out there. That is not because of a ton of bad modders, but because of a few. These rotten apples need to be expelled or cured before something happens that all of minecraft feels the repercussions.
Now time for bed, I may not be back for a while, I have a busy day
tomorrowtoday.About your book argument, there is another form of literature that mods resemble much better than "a book others find rubbish". Fanfiction.
In the US we have this: According to current United States copyright, copyright owners have the exclusive right "to prepare derivative works based upon [their] copyrighted work." A derivative work is any work, including fanfiction, based upon one or more preexisting works.
Source: http://en.wikipedia....ith_fan_fiction
This is why it's up to the courts to decide, not armchair lawyers.
A minecraft mod is very much a fanfiction. The modder is telling an alternate/expanded story using the canon characters (blocks, items, mobs) and in many cases their own original characters (blocks, items, mobs) interacting together.
Sure "tin ore-chan" doesn't tackle-glomp "cobblestone-san" in a highschool hallway, but that's because no one here knows how to write good bad fanfiction.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Retired StaffI am not applying base copyright laws, I am applying logistics to support what I believe a court would uphold in an event of a case such as this. You don't seem to understand, mods aren't a modification to the original code at all, through the use of Forge they are more like patches. If a mod contains zero code from the game and doesn't directly interact with the code, by definition, it is not a derivative work. If it is somehow, miraculously considered a derivative work of Minecraft then Mojang could claim practically anything as a derivative work...
Fanfiction often fall under such ruling due to the fact that they use not only the same title/name to display what the work is derived from, but they also use the same characters, locations, names, etc. which makes it clear that it is derivative of said show/movie/game/whatever. Programs and code, on the other hand, don't follow the same path as Fanfiction. When it comes to code it's all written by the programmer often in a unique way. Back to being analogous to a book, think of it as writing a book inspired by Harry Potter, but every event, character, location, name, etc is different. It becomes a work of it's own which cannot be claimed by anyone but the writer due to it being entirely different than any other work.
Given not much of this matters to me seeing as I keep my mods open-source anyway, I still stand with all previous statements I have made.
Your definition of the term "mod" and "modification" is way too narrow. Derivative work also classifies mods and modifications as anything that modifies how a program operates/functions/works. Mods modify the content of Minecraft, they modify how the game itself works in game. Mods do not have to modify the base code in order for Mojang to claim rights. That is why the EULA does not specify changes to the code, but instead uses the terms mods, modifications and plugins. Again, why you might be trying to be applying "logistics" to this situation, you are not paying attention to the laws which supports Mojang's claim and are directly ignoring the basis behind the EULA makes these claims. This is why Marc has stated on his twitter "The next few times someone says copyright, I'm going to point at the EULA" because it is written by people who are educated in this area and whose job requires them to know exactly what they are talking about, else risk getting their client into serious legal harm.
To be honest though, you really shouldn't be tacking on copyright notices at the bottom of your posts when you submit a mod, as there is really nothing you can do to challenge someone over it, as previously stated multiple times within this thread.
Modders are not allowed to dictate who can and cannot use their mod, for any purpose. If you doubt this, then please try taking the makers of a particularly intransigent modpack to court for copyright infringement.
All the debating and pseudo-legalistic jargon and hypothetical situations in the world will not change the fact that if you attempt to enforce your "right" to have your mod excluded from a modpack or any other unauthorized use, you'll be lucky if you don't have to pay the other party's legal fees.
I would love to be proven wrong.
Thank you and good night.
Wrong. So very wrong.
It's not me saying this, it's Notch:
If you don't understand the distinction between free speech and free beer, then see Gratis versus libre.
And it's right in Mojang's EULA:
People are confused by the word "content". It doesn't refer to code. It refers to ideas and concepts. Mojang has set up the EULA so it can continue to cherry-pick ideas from mods to incorporate into Minecraft without getting sued. In the cases where it incorporated a modder's code into Minecraft a separate negotiation took place to cover that, but without permission to use the code it would have needed to re-implement the concept from scratch.
Where the EULA says "…you must also let us permit other people to use, copy, modify and adapt your content" it's not talking about code. It's talking about ideas for things in the game like items and blocks. I wrote about this two years ago in A statement on Minecraft mods copying features from each other.
You say of a modder's work, "Others may steal your code…it is no longer yours." Not only does the EULA not say this, but think about the ramifications. Why would people continue working if they don't own their output? Ownership of one's output is the basis of the free/open source movement, as the creator of the code chooses the license.
Another ramification: this attitude has driven people to stop modding. "Oh, but someone else will take their place," is the common rebuttal. But people aren't commodities, and the loss of a creative and skilled modder hurts. My favorite modder, Eloraam, quit, and while there are substitutes for RedPower 2 they're just not the same. Mods aren't commodity items, they're creative works and their quality varies. Due to this latest nonsense a number of modders have quit just in the last few days.
It's notable that you think that Mojang should own its code but modders shouldn't own theirs. Where's the movement to open up the source code to Minecraft itself? After all, Notch promised to do it!
People who are attempting to convince others that Minecraft's EULA means that all mods are open source are not only hurting the modding community but the free/open source software movement itself. The free/open source software movement is based on it being a voluntary choice—this mandatory decree will scare people off.
I'm a proponent of free/open source software; I think it would be great if more modders chose to license their code this way. I am a long-time user of free/open source—I'm typing this on a Linux system and years ago I worked at a company that was an early supporter of the Free Software Foundation. The people misinterpreting Minecraft's EULA to force people's mods into the public domain are severely misguided.
Twitter: @Stratagerm
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumWhile that may be true, it's a shame that some people (not in reference to the person quoted) seem to feel the need to be jerks about it. Yes, modders do NOT have the 'right' to prevent others from using their mods however that person wants, including placing it in a mod pack, and those who have taken extra measures to ensure their will is enforced via the injection of malicious code have certainly over-stepped their bounds.
On the other hand, what ever happened to common courtesy and respect? Is it that difficult to ask for permission? The author didn't give it, so what's the big deal? Just don't include that mod then. So what if the author will get tons more downloads if included in that pack; if the author wanted that 'benefit', they would have given permission. While I personally don't understand why an author would not give permission, and my own mods are all open source, I also think it is a sad state of affairs that people have no qualms about using others' work however they see fit regardless of the author's wishes, even if that right is granted them by the EULA. It just feels very wrong to me.
I think Mojang has done an excellent job of not being jerks when it comes to including mod content in the original game, always discussing it with the original author and coming to some agreement, even when, as described in the EULA, they are well within their 'rights' to use whatever mod content is out there however they please without so much as a thank you.
So let's all follow Mojang's example and respect each other as human beings. That goes for mod authors, mod users, modpack creators, and everybody else out there. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Seems people can't figure that out anymore.
EDIT: Wholeheartedly agree with the post above me ^^
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumSorry, but I must disagree with you. Just because you personally have no problem with someone stealing your work and claiming credit for it does not mean that everyone else should feel the same, nor does it imply that they are terrible people for wanting recognition for their hard work.
That's very commendable of you to be so open with your code, but please try to understand not all people feel the same way; even people who open source their mods generally still like to be credited for it when used elsewhere, despite granting anyone and everyone free access to and permission to use and modify said code. I make my mods open source, and I hope people will use them, use the code, modify it, etc., but I would also be pretty ed if they didn't credit me as the original author, because I have put a lot of work into making it. Is that petty of me? Perhaps. But it's also basic human nature to want to reap the rewards, whatever they may be, of work that one does. No one goes to work every day just to give away their entire paycheck, even if they only earned pennies on the hour. The amount of money involved doesn't matter, nor does it even matter if there is any money involved. I hope you can understand that not everyone feels it is ridiculous to expect credit for work done, even while at the same time wishing to make something for the benefit and enjoyment of the community. The two are not mutually exclusive.
...sigh...
With the new updates and fixes to Adf.ly, adf.ly blocker plugins no longer work and having an adblock will cause adf.ly's countdown to not go down unless you disable it. Even my ANTIVIRUS blocks adf.ly ads, because they are all virus-ridden crocks of -CENSORED BY FORUM SOFTWARE-. This makes it nigh impossible to download mods from the minecraft forum. Why is this a bad thing? Because
A. People aren't getting what they wanted (The mod)
B. Adf.ly is a form of forced donation if there are no alternate downloads. For example, when I tried to download Thaumcraft 4, the adf.ly link would not let me download the mod because McAfee antivirus was blocking the ad.
Do you know what I do instead? I download a modpack, unzip it, extract the file, and download that into my Minecraft. It's much quicker than waiting for an Adf.ly link to load, turning off your Antivirus and Adblocker, Contacting customer support because of the virus that Adf.ly gave you with it's thousand fake download buttons, and then load the mod and find out it's incompatible with -Any mod ever-
Note. This account is deprecated due to past bigotry in posts that cannot be deleted.
Oh, it's about copyright? Look what I found in an old blog post of mine: a transcription of a portion of Jeb's presentation at the panel The future of the plugin API at Minecon 2012:
Jeb uttered these words on stage at Minecon in front of hundreds of people attending a panel aimed at mod developers. It's doesn't get more public than this.
Either Mojang has changed it's policy without informing mod developers so publicly, or you're wrong.
Twitter: @Stratagerm
The current EULA, that was upated on Dec 11 2013, is what we are referring to, this EULA came out a full year afer Jeb's speech in 2012, while the legalese of the EULA was still being drafted. The only thing that is not covered in this current EULA was that Mojang didn't cover a section of malicious code and Mojang is still having internal talks about adf.ly, these will be addressed in the next revision of the EULA. Beyound that everything that has been discussed, be it what constitutes as content, what rights does a modder have over their content, what rights Mojang has over content, and what rights all users have over content that have been extended to them by Mojang, is all covered in the EULA and has been further clarified by Marc.
However there are a lot of side issues people have been trying to bring up as defenses against the EULA (the whole Open Source thing, again, Mojang is not dictating that you have to have your mod open source, however they are also saying that people might do things you might not like to your mod, like decompile it anyway, and that people have the right to do so). Another issue I see people try to bring up to muddle the discussion is permissions debate, which again, is overridden by the fact the EULA dictates that you cannot dictate how someone uses your content. Another side debate people bring up to muddle this discussion is "But what if someone claims my work" when time and time again those same people have proven the point that even before there was nothing you could do legally. There are also people who try to bring up Moral debates, which is stupid, since morals change from person to person.. I agree that people should give credit to modders, but you cannot force people to. All of these are nonsense arguments designed to cloud the main topic and the main point we are trying to get across is that the community has been sticking its fingers in its ears going "Nope Nope Nope" when Mojang has clarified that:
1) Public mods extend certain rights to Mojang and modders must keep that in mind if they choose to release their mods. This overrides any license or copyright you might tack onto your mod. If you disagree with this either argue with Mojang's lawyers or do not release your mods publicly.
2) Mojang extends rights to users to use mods however they want, Mojang claims via their EULA that modders cannot dictate how a user uses their mod. This again overrides any license or copyright you might tack onto your mod. If you disagree with this either argue with Mojang's lawyers or do not release your mods publicly.
3) Mojang will not stand for people implementing Malicious Code since it targets their customer base. This was meant to be covered in the EULA originally and will be fully adapted as its own section in the near future.
And what about the forum post? Can you fake that too?
Did you even read this thread? Or even the last post on the previous page? We are NOT trying to get mods to be open source, we know we are losing old mods. Out with the old and in wit the new. In the short term this is going to hurt the modded community but in the long term it will grow into a stable one.
Minecraft is a real game selling for real cash. It is also an original work hence why Mojang can own their code.
There is no "movement" to open any source code, just a few people who got the motive of this skewed. We are NOT after source code! This is not about source code, it is about stopping modders from being able to bully the rest of the community.
The point is not his personal view, it is that that needs to be the view of this community. We cannot continue to support modders who view this otherwise. We are going to lose mods, and in the short term this is going to hurt the modded community but in the long run, it will be better as new mods come out to replace the lost. We are losing some of the creative minds, but their ideas will always linger and eventually be replaced. It's going to take time, but make no mistake, the community will recover and be better off.
Mojang has changed it's policy without informing mod developers.
To expand on what Enzer said with "All of these are nonsense arguments designed to cloud the main topic", the main topic is that modders are bullying the community into thinking they are God's gift to us, and we have to stop that.
It's no wonder why we are considered one of the most volatile community's out there.
A purge? Who put you in charge? This is the most reprehensible thing I've read in a long time.
You don't heal a toxic community by engaging in toxic behavior yourself.
At least now your motives are clear. And completely dishonorable.
Twitter: @Stratagerm
No, but you do do it by making people aware Mojang's intents and you do do it by making Mojang aware of the gross misuse of the permission to mod they have given modders. All anybody in this thread has done has reported examples of the worst of the community to Mojang and has spread what Mojang themselves has said. The bad apples in the modding community have brought Mojang's foot down through their actions and now everyone is going to deal with the consequences of what that entails because a few modders couldn't stop bullying people and couldn't stop attacking Mojang's paying customers.
If you cannot see this then I do not what to say to you.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumI highly disagree that his attitude should be the view of the community; who are you or I to force a single view on everyone? Each person has the right to their own opinion, whatever that may be, and we should be respectful of that. If someone doesn't care about other people claiming his / her work as their own, I have no problem with that; if someone wants to be credited for work they did, I will respect that, too.
Firstly, please refrain from lumping all modders into a single category, as every modder is an individual who exhibits individual behavior, reprehensible or otherwise. Secondly, the issue of bullying and disrespect is not a one-way street, as plenty of modders have been on the receiving end as well, though surely not to the same extent as having malicious code delivered to them.
You seem to be creating a false dichotomy between 'us', i.e. the community, and 'them', i.e. the modders, when modders are also a part of the community, and everyone in the community is an individual. If an individual, modder or otherwise, is disrespectful of others or worse, then I would hope the appropriate authorities as well as individuals in the community would take appropriate action, either by banning said user or simply ignoring them.
If the issue is truly about bullying, then everyone needs to step up and be a better person, which includes respecting others' opinions and hopefully how one's mod is used. And of course, modders shouldn't be douches about how their mods can be used, and people using the mods shouldn't be douches about how they use it.
It's Mojang's job to do that. We've paid them for it. You don't speak for Mojang.
I tweeted earlier to the effect that Mojang has been ignoring & neglecting modders for years. What we're seeing now is the result of Mojang's lack of guidance to the mod community. It's been two years and the mod API is still a long way off and Mojang has little engagement with the modding community.
Every community has bad apples. Since there have been no rules, people have been able to do what they want. I'm not defending those modders by any means. But I don't see the "gross misuse" you mention. What's happened is that there are a few mods that people want to use where the modder has done things to limit its use for arbitrary reasons in a user-hostile manner. Because Mojang had set no rules.
Instead of players and modders fighting we should be working together to hold Mojang's feet to the fire to deliver the mod API.
Blame Mojang, not modders. It's healthier for the community.
Twitter: @Stratagerm