Thaumcraft 3 Is The Best Tc3 So Far, And I Think Is Good The Way it Is, But It Needs More Puzzles, It Needs More Thing There Make You Think For Hours And Hours To Solve The Pluzzle, And Be Always Diferent, Like:
If You Watch A 20 Minutes Tutorial On Resarch, You Alread Know What You Need To Do, And That's The Problem.
I like all the ideas you have but one problem with spell casting or wand customization is that there are so many mods with hotkeys and so it might interfere unless you make it that to change spells it is one key that opens a spell book GUI or for wand customization a table that when a wand is filled with a certain kind of essentia the wand becomes a wand of that essentia then combine 2 in the same table to make a multi-essence wand.
I actually think what you've come up with here sounds pretty darn cool.
Although, I think there should be some way to 'respec' the wand's augmentation. The cost could be anything from Exp, to losing the aspects used in the augmentation. Maybe both, or maybe an even higher cost to keep players from doing it whenever they need to change the wand from, say, a mining wand to a battle wand.
Also, how would enchantments work in this system? Would they persist, or do you think it'd be best to do away with them?
I'm assuming the spells need to be researched individually as well before they can be accessed in the wands.
Would it be a good idea to have spell tiers tied to both the wand research tree and the spell research tree?
Example: To research a tier 2 fire spell, you first have to have researched both the Unified Thaumic Field Theory as well as the tier 1 version of that spell?
Although, I think there should be some way to 'respec' the wand's augmentation. The cost could be anything from Exp, to losing the aspects used in the augmentation. Maybe both, or maybe an even higher cost to keep players from doing it whenever they need to change the wand from, say, a mining wand to a battle wand.
This gives me a few ideas that tie into the aura crystal constructs I posted about on page 4. But to respeccing, I say it should cost a bit more than the second-level augmentation would cost. No refund.
Also, how would enchantments work in this system? Would they persist, or do you think it'd be best to do away with them?
It depends on how the wands function. I personally think that augmentations should be treated as "enchantments" in a sense, costing a small quantity of XP in addition to resources and Aspects.
I'm assuming the spells need to be researched individually as well before they can be accessed in the wands.
Would it be a good idea to have spell tiers tied to both the wand research tree and the spell research tree?
Example: To research a tier 2 fire spell, you first have to have researched both the Unified Thaumic Field Theory as well as the tier 1 version of that spell?
Yes, pretty much exactly this. You have to LEARN a spell before you can USE it.
I like how absolutely nobody actually reads the thread and just starts spouting random ideas without any coherence or consideration, basically just turning it into a "make my mod for me" thread.
I like how absolutely nobody actually reads the thread and just starts spouting random ideas without any coherence or consideration, basically just turning it into a "make my mod for me" thread.
This gives me a few ideas that tie into the aura crystal constructs I posted about on page 4. But to respeccing, I say it should cost a bit more than the second-level augmentation would cost. No refund.
It depends on how the wands function. I personally think that augmentations should be treated as "enchantments" in a sense, costing a small quantity of XP in addition to resources and Aspects.
Yes, pretty much exactly this. You have to LEARN a spell before you can USE it.
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Suggestions my friends and I discussed.
Aura Node(Aspect Nodes):
Make them a physical Block or group of blocks, Maybe a crystal. You could possibly make it like 1.5 blocks, like a fence, and based on location have different attributes. Examples would include heat/fire nodes found in areas with lava, water nodes in water etc, with each having different features, water recharges its vis faster, fire improves speed of furnaces and damage of weapons, wind speeds up tools, earth grants reduces damage done to players, and finally Vis nodes have higher vis levels than the others, and greatly improve your chance for reseach, but are harder to find.Every node has the same base vis level of 500 with Vis node having 750-1000vp. Crystals till appear but specific elementals are more common around their respective stones. Nodes are mineable, but only late game, and lose all saved vis when mined with a the appropriate tool.
Wand:
They would be the 3 levels of basic wands, each allowing better things to be crafted at the arcane worktables and infusion altars, but instead of secondary wands being built like, the fire/ice/excavation, The level 2 wands would be attuned to an Aspect Node. Only wand removed is the Equal trade, instead have a air wand for pushing away mobs/players, These wands recharge but only from unmined crystal blocks, draining the crystal and making it dull for the time being. Crystal would recharge over time. And Vis Nodes would upgrade a lvl 2 to a lvl 3 wand doing more damage or having a greater affect, sush as faster mining for earth wand (excavation). Each wand recharges and can be used for crafting.
Flux:
Flux is a player based aspect, not taking precations can lead to mishaps with the player. This helps eliminate griefing that can occur because it is based on your actions not someone coming along and using you equipment. Affliction from extreme flux can include blindness, slowness, catching fire, randomly teleporting. and even dopplegangers. There would be blocks to create safe eviorments and even clothing and devices that help rdeduce flux generated on the player. Flux could also be used as a level that like experience can be used for enchantments and repairs. the Dangers of having higher flux and and its potential rewards, would be an interesting dynamic to the current system, were a simple dark node can practically stop mob spawning.
Just some thoughts we have gather atm, and Thanks for an amazing mode.
I feel like these are great ideas, especially the return of my favorate part of previous thaumcraft versions, the obelisks. Seriously, those things were AMAZING! The only part I dislike is the amount of time it will take to make all this. It seems like we just got thaumcraft 3 and you're thinking about updating already.
I would have to disagree with the spellcasting, leveling up, and such. Thaumcraft to me has seemed more like gaining power through knowledge, and that you're simply harnessing the mystic energies through your creations, not through yourself. In short, I prefer more scientific Thaumcraft than magical Thaumcraft.
The current system is nice. Honestly, I quite enjoy the node system. It makes it feel like you want to settle down in certain areas, more than just "ok, this is a nice hill. It is now my new house". I would much prefer a bit more worldgen, and have some of it be a source of research. For example, instead of just randomly throwing blaze rods and Soul sand in the research bench, and suddenly you think you know how to trap a blaze in a Netherbrick and obsidian cage, perhaps have ruins with things like the remains of a dysfunctional Infernal Furnace that you can use to study, before refining the idea into a functioning forge.
Also, if you heavily cut down the aspect count, then why not have an ore for each aspect? It obviously wouldn't be viable with our 47 or so aspects we currently have, but with about 10 of em it would be much more reasonable (flame, water, wind, earth, time, life, death, nature, magic and chaos?)
Or have these as primary aspects, which shape the majority of the important structures of the mod, while having many more minor aspects in the background that add finese. Perhaps every item could be bound to a primary aspect, while they can also bear many secondary aspects to further "describe" that item.
If you did want to replace the node system, then perhaps having each aspect be bound to a "node" of sorts, that can act as a source for everything using that aspect within reason. And making it so that having conflicting nodes close to eachother disrupt their abilities to be used (IE. Fire/water, earth/air, nature/time, magic/chaos, life/death). Note that stronger nodes would have a stronger disruptive effect on both rival nodes and neutral nodes (anything it doesn't directly conflict with). While neutral nodes would only have minor disruptions if near eachother, rival nodes would have disastrous effects on the nearby area. If you used this system, nodes would have to cover a much larger area than before, but it would also give a real use to the Thaumeter as well. To help you find these much farther scattered about nodes. Might also promote an interesting play of "node wars" as groups try and secure nodes for their own faction on servers any means necessary. You would probably see quite a few bases in multiplayer built around the fire/death nodes (they are perhaps the most common node types... although the most dangerous as well. Read below to read up on the temple idea list I had where you could find each type of node) You can also give each type of node a distinct effect on the area (water node inducing more storms if in a loaded chunk, death nodes making much more, stronger, hostile mobs spawn, nature node acting like bonemeal in the area... as well as placing saplings that proceed to get bonemealed, ect)
Spellcasting - Honestly not partial either way on this issue. Really would have to see it to truely decide on it. I have always thought of Thaumcraft as magi-punk technology (lol, been using this term a long time to talk about TC3), and spellcasting feels less like magi-punk and more like just plain old magic. And you would already have a massive rival in the Ars Magica mod on what a real good looking magic based mod would be for spellcasting... as in I doubt even you could make so perfect a system to rival it.
ima edit in more ideas in a moment, just posting what I have so far now.
On the subject of nodes and worldgen again, perhaps make each type of node have its own world gen "temple" of some kind that you can find it in. Note that I would want you able to move EACH node for this though, so that while you have to truely search them out, once you find them you can bring them back to your home base, or at least the surrounding hills of it anyway to make sure the nodes don't get too close to eachother.
I would also say each aspect/node should have its own branch in the Thaumonomicon. For example, almost all the fire aspect based things (Furnace, fire spells if you decide to do them, a new brewing system to expand on vanilla, ect) have their own page, and things like the life aspect (golems, perhap things that enhance farms to be more fertile, ect) on another.
I do agree with that one post above on it being nice to have those "boss" researches we had to do to move on, and perhaps a similar system would still fit. Perhaps have the first one require the basics in all researches, but each higher tier requires fewer aspects done for it. I might make a picture to demonstrate this idea better.
*Takes a big breath to start a long winded description*
Ok. From the beginning, you start out wanting to know about everything. You quickly start researching, trying to cover your bases in the basics of every aspect. Upon reaching a certain proficency with them, you realize that combining the ideas of them might help you further your goals. This is the Startup - first Theory of a little bit of everything. From there, you decide to focus on aspects in two major groups. The destructive (Fire, Time, Air, Death, and Chaos) and the productive (Water, Life, Earth, Nature, Magic). Both separate trees have their own Theory, The Theories of Creation and Destruction. This was part 2. Upon obtaining both of these, you realize that in truth, they are one and the same and proceed to unify these research trees. This leads up to T3, as you truely have a Theory for everything. From this, you decide that you want to master each aspect, and decide that the best way to control them is not to research just them, but also their rivals (as is listed a few paragraphs above). You see that they perfectly control one another (fire controls water, as water controls fire) and want to see if you yourself can obtain this true mastery over the elements though this. Perhaps you could add in a final stage where you have obtained true mastery over every element past this, finally reunifying the entire tree.
Ok, that's finished. Taking a breath now.
Ima head back to the ideas about the world gen temples of some sort or another, as talking about the above has sparked some ideas in my mind. Just going to list temple ideas for each node type.
1. Water Temple - A massive vortex in the ocean, that at the center has frozen ruin with a large water-spout bursting out. The node is in the center of this waterspout coming out of the ruins.
2. Air Temple - An ancient city flying high above the plains/extreme hills/tundra biomes. In the center rages a tornado which has the node within.
3. Death Temple - Deep in the Nether an ancient beast once fell, and its bones, as well as it's fossilized, burning heart guard a node of flame. As well as the hundreds of Wither skeletons. Don't forget the Wither Skeletons. *The bones might very well be made of 1.5 marble, as an idea*
4. Flame Temple - A runic castle floating on the surface of the lava lakes of the Nether, with a dangerous population of very infuriated blazes more than happy enough to toast a nearby raider.
5. Nature temple - A massive tree, much larger than average, with a hollowed core guarding the nature node. In jungles or forest.
6. Earth temple - A massive scar in the earth, much larger than a normal ravine(the top of it breaches the ground level, and it's bottom is brushing bedrock, and is about twice to three times as wide), that at it's deepest point has a shard of the lands might (the earth node). Any land based biome.
7. Life Temple - A ruin with a great many automatons and ancient devices. At it's core is a node that if disturbed would revive the entire temple... and not happily. Jungles.
8. Temporal Temple - In the shifting sands of the desert there rest the ruins of a massive hourglass, with shifting sands guarding it (pretty much the node is guarded by a liquid that is textured like sand, and looks like eternally flowing sands.. of time. Oh yea, these sands are also very dangerous, and just touching them affects you with the Wither debuff as you yourself turn to dust...). Obviously in deserts.
9. Magic Temple - A great many aged devises and traps in these hallowed halls, guarded with traps that have long sense ran out of arcane fuel... you hope. Found in Tundra biomes.
10. Chaos Temple - A chaotic structure found only in the End, where the forces that will destroy the world rampage around it, as the Ender Dragon roost above watching over its domain at the end of the world, waiting to bring it's plots to fruit. Well.... did you read this one? It's in the End.
*gasping for breath after talking for way to long strait*
ok, I think I am finally finished.... lolz. Spent much longer on this reply than I intended. Over an hour, to be specific.
The current system is nice. Honestly, I quite enjoy the node system. It makes it feel like you want to settle down in certain areas, more than just "ok, this is a nice hill. It is now my new house". I would much prefer a bit more worldgen, and have some of it be a source of research. For example, instead of just randomly throwing blaze rods and Soul sand in the research bench, and suddenly you think you know how to trap a blaze in a Netherbrick and obsidian cage, perhaps have ruins with things like the remains of a dysfunctional Infernal Furnace that you can use to study, before refining the idea into a functioning forge.
Also, if you heavily cut down the aspect count, then why not have an ore for each aspect? It obviously wouldn't be viable with our 47 or so aspects we currently have, but with about 10 of em it would be much more reasonable (flame, water, wind, earth, time, life, death, nature, magic and chaos?)
Or have these as primary aspects, which shape the majority of the important structures of the mod, while having many more minor aspects in the background that add finese. Perhaps every item could be bound to a primary aspect, while they can also bear many secondary aspects to further "describe" that item.
If you did want to replace the node system, then perhaps having each aspect be bound to a "node" of sorts, that can act as a source for everything using that aspect within reason. And making it so that having conflicting nodes close to eachother disrupt their abilities to be used (IE. Fire/water, earth/air, nature/time, magic/chaos, life/death). Note that stronger nodes would have a stronger disruptive effect on both rival nodes and neutral nodes (anything it doesn't directly conflict with). While neutral nodes would only have minor disruptions if near eachother, rival nodes would have disastrous effects on the nearby area. If you used this system, nodes would have to cover a much larger area than before, but it would also give a real use to the Thaumeter as well. To help you find these much farther scattered about nodes. Might also promote an interesting play of "node wars" as groups try and secure nodes for their own faction on servers any means necessary. You would probably see quite a few bases in multiplayer built around the fire/death nodes (they are perhaps the most common node types... although the most dangerous as well. Read below to read up on the temple idea list I had where you could find each type of node) You can also give each type of node a distinct effect on the area (water node inducing more storms if in a loaded chunk, death nodes making much more, stronger, hostile mobs spawn, nature node acting like bonemeal in the area... as well as placing saplings that proceed to get bonemealed, ect)
Spellcasting - Honestly not partial either way on this issue. Really would have to see it to truely decide on it. I have always thought of Thaumcraft as magi-punk technology (lol, been using this term a long time to talk about TC3), and spellcasting feels less like magi-punk and more like just plain old magic. And you would already have a massive rival in the Ars Magica mod on what a real good looking magic based mod would be for spellcasting... as in I doubt even you could make so perfect a system to rival it.
ima edit in more ideas in a moment, just posting what I have so far now.
On the subject of nodes and worldgen again, perhaps make each type of node have its own world gen "temple" of some kind that you can find it in. Note that I would want you able to move EACH node for this though, so that while you have to truely search them out, once you find them you can bring them back to your home base, or at least the surrounding hills of it anyway to make sure the nodes don't get too close to eachother.
I would also say each aspect/node should have its own branch in the Thaumonomicon. For example, almost all the fire aspect based things (Furnace, fire spells if you decide to do them, a new brewing system to expand on vanilla, ect) have their own page, and things like the life aspect (golems, perhap things that enhance farms to be more fertile, ect) on another.
I do agree with that one post above on it being nice to have those "boss" researches we had to do to move on, and perhaps a similar system would still fit. Perhaps have the first one require the basics in all researches, but each higher tier requires fewer aspects done for it. I might make a picture to demonstrate this idea better.
*Takes a big breath to start a long winded description*
Ok. From the beginning, you start out wanting to know about everything. You quickly start researching, trying to cover your bases in the basics of every aspect. Upon reaching a certain proficency with them, you realize that combining the ideas of them might help you further your goals. This is the Startup - first Theory of a little bit of everything. From there, you decide to focus on aspects in two major groups. The destructive (Fire, Time, Air, Death, and Chaos) and the productive (Water, Life, Earth, Nature, Magic). Both separate trees have their own Theory, The Theories of Creation and Destruction. This was part 2. Upon obtaining both of these, you realize that in truth, they are one and the same and proceed to unify these research trees. This leads up to T3, as you truely have a Theory for everything. From this, you decide that you want to master each aspect, and decide that the best way to control them is not to research just them, but also their rivals (as is listed a few paragraphs above). You see that they perfectly control one another (fire controls water, as water controls fire) and want to see if you yourself can obtain this true mastery over the elements though this. Perhaps you could add in a final stage where you have obtained true mastery over every element past this, finally reunifying the entire tree.
Ok, that's finished. Taking a breath now.
Ima head back to the ideas about the world gen temples of some sort or another, as talking about the above has sparked some ideas in my mind. Just going to list temple ideas for each node type.
1. Water Temple - A massive vortex in the ocean, that at the center has frozen ruin with a large water-spout bursting out. The node is in the center of this waterspout coming out of the ruins.
2. Air Temple - An ancient city flying high above the plains/extreme hills/tundra biomes. In the center rages a tornado which has the node within.
3. Death Temple - Deep in the Nether an ancient beast once fell, and its bones, as well as it's fossilized, burning heart guard a node of flame. As well as the hundreds of Wither skeletons. Don't forget the Wither Skeletons. *The bones might very well be made of 1.5 marble, as an idea*
4. Flame Temple - A runic castle floating on the surface of the lava lakes of the Nether, with a dangerous population of very infuriated blazes more than happy enough to toast a nearby raider.
5. Nature temple - A massive tree, much larger than average, with a hollowed core guarding the nature node. In jungles or forest.
6. Earth temple - A massive scar in the earth, much larger than a normal ravine(the top of it breaches the ground level, and it's bottom is brushing bedrock, and is about twice to three times as wide), that at it's deepest point has a shard of the lands might (the earth node). Any land based biome.
7. Life Temple - A ruin with a great many automatons and ancient devices. At it's core is a node that if disturbed would revive the entire temple... and not happily. Jungles.
8. Temporal Temple - In the shifting sands of the desert there rest the ruins of a massive hourglass, with shifting sands guarding it (pretty much the node is guarded by a liquid that is textured like sand, and looks like eternally flowing sands.. of time. Oh yea, these sands are also very dangerous, and just touching them affects you with the Wither debuff as you yourself turn to dust...). Obviously in deserts.
9. Magic Temple - A great many aged devises and traps in these hallowed halls, guarded with traps that have long sense ran out of arcane fuel... you hope. Found in Tundra biomes.
10. Chaos Temple - A chaotic structure found only in the End, where the forces that will destroy the world rampage around it, as the Ender Dragon roost above watching over its domain at the end of the world, waiting to bring it's plots to fruit. Well.... did you read this one? It's in the End.
*gasping for breath after talking for way to long strait*
ok, I think I am finally finished.... lolz. Spent much longer on this reply than I intended. Over an hour, to be specific.
I like a lot of the ideas expressed in the quote above, from page 1. I would LOVE to see more worldgen happening, and having to explore to find ruins to further your research in certain 'tech-trees' would add a whole new reason to explore the Overworld and Nether more thoroughly.
So far as simplifying the research system, I'm all for making it a bit more intuitive and more of a puzzle rather than a shot in the dark, but I urge you to aim for more of a middle-ground with the element simplification. I rather like the fact that there are so many aspects to begin with, but agree that there a few too many of them in the current system. One way you could make the research system more of a puzzle and less of a resource-dump is to perhaps redesign the new system to only further your research to a certain point after which you have to actually solve a bit of a riddle yourself before completing the research--instead of being complete when all research components are to 100%, have the system halt with one of the elements missing and leave it up to the player to figure it out. I.E. Researching a spell that has something to do with Fire, Earth, and explosives that seeks to improve a technology that has to do with mining(whose name is not displayed in the gui until the research is complete, unlike the current system, to leave you guessing and so you can't google it lol). The missing component may be insects....exploding mining bees! --Perhaps a little corny, but hey it's just an example, I'm sure you could come up with much more entertaining puzzles to find that final missing component.
On the topic of spellcasting, I think it's a great idea! Though I think it might fit more inline with the rest of the Thaumcraft ideology to have the system structured something more akin to Alchemy. Perhaps adding runes you have to place on the ground in order to cast the spell or perhaps make it so you need to use reagents per spellcast or something on that line of thought, rather then simply using up "Mana" through a wand? I love the 'magic punk' style that Thaumcraft has that sets it apart from typical fantasy magic and think that a typical spellcasting system would detract from that more than I would like =[
I also agree that hotkeys having to do with spellcasting should be kept to a minimum, maybe even simply make you hold shift(sneak) and right click with your want to use the currently selected 'spell' and you just click on the spell gui-hotbar to select a different spell? Then you wouldn't really need any actual hotkeys to add the same functionality and not change flow of gameplay/combat more than necessary?
Wand:
They would be the 3 levels of basic wands, each allowing better things to be crafted at the arcane worktables and infusion altars, but instead of secondary wands being built like, the fire/ice/excavation, The level 2 wands would be attuned to an Aspect Node. Only wand removed is the Equal trade, instead have a air wand for pushing away mobs/players, These wands recharge but only from unmined crystal blocks, draining the crystal and making it dull for the time being. Crystal would recharge over time. And Vis Nodes would upgrade a lvl 2 to a lvl 3 wand doing more damage or having a greater affect, sush as faster mining for earth wand (excavation). Each wand recharges and can be used for crafting.
Don't get rid of the wand of equal trade; it is obviously attuned to the node permutationis.
Speaking of which, while I am fine with a decrease in aspects, I feel like you are going to far.
As stated by some other person above, I like the idea of having "noun"-aspects and "verb"-aspects.
Necessary "noun"-aspects, I feel, are
Aer, Aqua, Terra, Ignis (the four classical elements) are obviously needed
chaos for flux
metallum so metal transmutation can be done without an awkward transmuting earth to iron
As for verb aspects, I suppose we could have Permutatio cambiens? (changing?) cambire? (to change?)
potens? (being able (aka having power)) potesse? (to have power?) fractus destruens? (destroying) destruere? (to destroy) < could be also used for attack? sano sanans? sanare? (heal, repair?) (on a completely different note, "make sound" in the original description is very confusing, because sound here is the adjective form, not the other more common terms)
And that makes ten?
Not really sure of anything I have said here except for that the nouns above feel like they are required.
One thing I like about having so many aspects is that it forces you to go exploring. I had a lot of fun trying to figure out what held the spirit and time aspects. If you do decide to remove most of the aspects, I'd encourage you to find some other way to get players to go out and explore. More worldgen, for example.
It's too bad that auras are so buggy, because I really like them. I think what I like most about them is the way that magic becomes location dependent, which is something that no other mod does. And the tension between short term power gain and the flux it creates makes for a more interesting and challenging game. As long as the new system retains some sort of pollution mechanic and a strong relationship with the local area, I will be happy. Creating, watching, dealing with and running away from various sorts of corruption are my favorite parts of Thaumcraft 2 and 3, and I would love to see this expanded in new and interesting ways.
As for your research system: It seems to me that you have contradictory goals with research. You don't want it to be simple resource collection, because that's what tech mods do, and its boring. But you don't want it to be fully luck dependent, because then research turns into playing a slot machine, which is also boring. Your current method is heavy on resource collection, but it remains fun the first couple times you play, because you don't know the research paths. But once you know the whole research tree, it turns back into simple resource collection.
Luck-based research is like playing a slot machine, item-collection based research is just tech-mod stuff, and discovery based research is only fun once. My advice? Find a way to randomize your tech tree, so that each game research involves discovery. For example, one game you get a massive bonus to fire magic, while your golems cost so much magic that you don't bother making them. Or perhaps the first thing every player researches is a wand that causes damage. But the method of doing damage changes each game. So maybe this game your wand does lighting damage, so you explore more overworld since lighting doesn't work underground, while another game the wand does fire damage, so you explore underground because the wand lets you create light easily. One game you get an intrinsic bonus to magic storage, so you research high cost enchantments, while another game you get a debuff to magic storage but a boost to spell damage, so you research damage spells and explore more. One game you get a huge boost to magic creation, as well as flux creation, so you research how to mitigate flux, while another game you produce little magic and no flux at all, so you research how to boost magic creation. Get the idea?
What you research should be something you can pick ahead of time, so as to allow strategy and long term planning, and how you research should not be luck dependent, since that turns into playing a slot machine. But make the effectiveness of whatever you end up researching luck dependent, and each game will be slightly different and unique.
Not only does this encourage different playstyles and different research choices each game, it also encourages players to trade and interact with other people, since each person has a different set of bonuses. Of course, the drawback is that players might complain because they feel like they're missing out on content, or feel like they got some bad luck and would rather restart the game than continue playing, or that the research tree they've been given is unfair and puts them at a disadvantage to other players, so I'd advise you to make sure that players can eventually research everything and mitigate any weaknesses.
Thanks for making the mod by the way. I look forward to whatever you choose to do.
hey azanor i love the new ideas but i have one question if you did all of these changes wouldnt it take forever to get the mod released again? not that we cant wait for something of your calibur
hey azanor i love the new ideas but i have one question if you did all of these changes wouldnt it take forever to get the mod released again? not that we cant wait for something of your calibur
I get the feeling that these may not all make there way into the mod in a fully realized form in one update. More likely the foundations will be laid and then built upon in consecutive updates. But that's just what I see as the most likely way it would happen.
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Humanity is the creation of Logic and Emotion, Calculation and Imagination, Cold Analysis and Blind Faith. This is why I believe it is a strange Human that would prize one while shunning the other. For a calculator can do math just as well as you, but a calculator can not use math to make the world a better place.
*Clutches Tally, Prickles, Pebbles, Clink clank, Sticks and Wobbles to me* Please don't take my babies away? The golems are the best thing you have ever created... how can you look in their tiny eyes and destroy their code?
*Ahem... cough* Sorry...
As it is I adore TC3 at first I really missed some of the parts of TC2 but I really did not miss the uncontrollable taint and never ending cobble grinding in the Q block. The beauty of TC3 very quickly erased any longing I had for the old and I dive into research with gusto. The FIRST thing I do when I set up on a new server is find chickens and cows to breed for research resources... that is before I even find a mine! I do agree that some of the aspects can end up as stacks of vials of essential in chests because they have no use but in that case I would encourage you to incorporate those aspects into a tool or device. Before you abandon TC3 please give it some more time give us some device that we can clean the aura of flux directly with or some other balancing aspect to the things you are satisfied with.
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Mind the puddles... they Follow me everywhere... they are addictive and cause madness... they leak from my head <.< >.> Try to drink them
I keep seeing posts about making research more of a puzzle game (code breaker\tiles etc), please don't, I hate them and I suck at them and having the sheer joy that is Thaumcraft removed from my play due to a mini-game would be rather annoying. As I stated in my post the lottery aspects of research seem to be mostly in the actual refining of the theory "will it take me 2 or 20 pairs of boots to get this to the edge" so some alternative method of doing that part would be good but a mini-game? no thanks. In general you can logically work out what aspects will be in a particular research (there were a couple that stumped me and I was reduced to "throw random item in and see" but that is part of real research a lot of the time anyway :D)
Aspects
After giving things some thought I have decided not to cull the aspect list to less than 24 or so different aspects. I'm still deciding if I'm just going cut off the dead wood (quite literally - there are 5 plant related aspects) or completely reorganize the aspect breakdown.
Research
I've had a bit of an inspiration with the research system which I think will add an intresting dynamic to it, though I don't want to go into details just yet. Lets just say that more than half of your research time would NOT be spent in front of a table staring at a GUI.
Aura
I'm still wracking my brain on the whole matter in regards to the aura and nodes. I'm still leaning heavily towards making them blocks, but there is several problems with the approach. This needs a bit more thought.
Vis
The overwhelming opinion seems to be to keep vis as a resource. I'm still in two minds on the matter, though I am leaning slightly towards keeping it however. It is linked to auras so depending on what I do there will determine if it stays or not.
Spellcasting
Nope. Well, not in the traditional sense of the word at least - it will have a definite magi-punk flavor
RPG Elements
I was never planning on using MC's built in xp system for this especially since there has been rumblings that vanilla might include things like that. I was thinking more along the lines of there being research that alters the way your character does thaumcrafty things - for example a research that reduces vis cost by 10%, or increases damage with the wand of fire by 20%. These researches could possibly even include branching paths so you need to choose between 20% bonus damage or 20% less charge use on the wand.
If I include this it would more than likely come in a later update.
If You Watch A 20 Minutes Tutorial On Resarch, You Alread Know What You Need To Do, And That's The Problem.
BTW: Srry For My Bad English
I actually think what you've come up with here sounds pretty darn cool.
Although, I think there should be some way to 'respec' the wand's augmentation. The cost could be anything from Exp, to losing the aspects used in the augmentation. Maybe both, or maybe an even higher cost to keep players from doing it whenever they need to change the wand from, say, a mining wand to a battle wand.
Also, how would enchantments work in this system? Would they persist, or do you think it'd be best to do away with them?
I'm assuming the spells need to be researched individually as well before they can be accessed in the wands.
Would it be a good idea to have spell tiers tied to both the wand research tree and the spell research tree?
Example: To research a tier 2 fire spell, you first have to have researched both the Unified Thaumic Field Theory as well as the tier 1 version of that spell?
It's better to ask a stupid question than not knowing the answer.
Glad someone actually reads the thread. ~<3
This gives me a few ideas that tie into the aura crystal constructs I posted about on page 4. But to respeccing, I say it should cost a bit more than the second-level augmentation would cost. No refund.
It depends on how the wands function. I personally think that augmentations should be treated as "enchantments" in a sense, costing a small quantity of XP in addition to resources and Aspects.
Yes, pretty much exactly this. You have to LEARN a spell before you can USE it.
I like how some people contradict themselves.
Aura Node(Aspect Nodes):
Make them a physical Block or group of blocks, Maybe a crystal. You could possibly make it like 1.5 blocks, like a fence, and based on location have different attributes. Examples would include heat/fire nodes found in areas with lava, water nodes in water etc, with each having different features, water recharges its vis faster, fire improves speed of furnaces and damage of weapons, wind speeds up tools, earth grants reduces damage done to players, and finally Vis nodes have higher vis levels than the others, and greatly improve your chance for reseach, but are harder to find.Every node has the same base vis level of 500 with Vis node having 750-1000vp. Crystals till appear but specific elementals are more common around their respective stones. Nodes are mineable, but only late game, and lose all saved vis when mined with a the appropriate tool.
Wand:
They would be the 3 levels of basic wands, each allowing better things to be crafted at the arcane worktables and infusion altars, but instead of secondary wands being built like, the fire/ice/excavation, The level 2 wands would be attuned to an Aspect Node. Only wand removed is the Equal trade, instead have a air wand for pushing away mobs/players, These wands recharge but only from unmined crystal blocks, draining the crystal and making it dull for the time being. Crystal would recharge over time. And Vis Nodes would upgrade a lvl 2 to a lvl 3 wand doing more damage or having a greater affect, sush as faster mining for earth wand (excavation). Each wand recharges and can be used for crafting.
Flux:
Flux is a player based aspect, not taking precations can lead to mishaps with the player. This helps eliminate griefing that can occur because it is based on your actions not someone coming along and using you equipment. Affliction from extreme flux can include blindness, slowness, catching fire, randomly teleporting. and even dopplegangers. There would be blocks to create safe eviorments and even clothing and devices that help rdeduce flux generated on the player. Flux could also be used as a level that like experience can be used for enchantments and repairs. the Dangers of having higher flux and and its potential rewards, would be an interesting dynamic to the current system, were a simple dark node can practically stop mob spawning.
Just some thoughts we have gather atm, and Thanks for an amazing mode.
The current system is nice. Honestly, I quite enjoy the node system. It makes it feel like you want to settle down in certain areas, more than just "ok, this is a nice hill. It is now my new house". I would much prefer a bit more worldgen, and have some of it be a source of research. For example, instead of just randomly throwing blaze rods and Soul sand in the research bench, and suddenly you think you know how to trap a blaze in a Netherbrick and obsidian cage, perhaps have ruins with things like the remains of a dysfunctional Infernal Furnace that you can use to study, before refining the idea into a functioning forge.
Also, if you heavily cut down the aspect count, then why not have an ore for each aspect? It obviously wouldn't be viable with our 47 or so aspects we currently have, but with about 10 of em it would be much more reasonable (flame, water, wind, earth, time, life, death, nature, magic and chaos?)
Or have these as primary aspects, which shape the majority of the important structures of the mod, while having many more minor aspects in the background that add finese. Perhaps every item could be bound to a primary aspect, while they can also bear many secondary aspects to further "describe" that item.
If you did want to replace the node system, then perhaps having each aspect be bound to a "node" of sorts, that can act as a source for everything using that aspect within reason. And making it so that having conflicting nodes close to eachother disrupt their abilities to be used (IE. Fire/water, earth/air, nature/time, magic/chaos, life/death). Note that stronger nodes would have a stronger disruptive effect on both rival nodes and neutral nodes (anything it doesn't directly conflict with). While neutral nodes would only have minor disruptions if near eachother, rival nodes would have disastrous effects on the nearby area. If you used this system, nodes would have to cover a much larger area than before, but it would also give a real use to the Thaumeter as well. To help you find these much farther scattered about nodes. Might also promote an interesting play of "node wars" as groups try and secure nodes for their own faction on servers any means necessary. You would probably see quite a few bases in multiplayer built around the fire/death nodes (they are perhaps the most common node types... although the most dangerous as well. Read below to read up on the temple idea list I had where you could find each type of node) You can also give each type of node a distinct effect on the area (water node inducing more storms if in a loaded chunk, death nodes making much more, stronger, hostile mobs spawn, nature node acting like bonemeal in the area... as well as placing saplings that proceed to get bonemealed, ect)
Spellcasting - Honestly not partial either way on this issue. Really would have to see it to truely decide on it. I have always thought of Thaumcraft as magi-punk technology (lol, been using this term a long time to talk about TC3), and spellcasting feels less like magi-punk and more like just plain old magic. And you would already have a massive rival in the Ars Magica mod on what a real good looking magic based mod would be for spellcasting... as in I doubt even you could make so perfect a system to rival it.
ima edit in more ideas in a moment, just posting what I have so far now.
On the subject of nodes and worldgen again, perhaps make each type of node have its own world gen "temple" of some kind that you can find it in. Note that I would want you able to move EACH node for this though, so that while you have to truely search them out, once you find them you can bring them back to your home base, or at least the surrounding hills of it anyway to make sure the nodes don't get too close to eachother.
I would also say each aspect/node should have its own branch in the Thaumonomicon. For example, almost all the fire aspect based things (Furnace, fire spells if you decide to do them, a new brewing system to expand on vanilla, ect) have their own page, and things like the life aspect (golems, perhap things that enhance farms to be more fertile, ect) on another.
I do agree with that one post above on it being nice to have those "boss" researches we had to do to move on, and perhaps a similar system would still fit. Perhaps have the first one require the basics in all researches, but each higher tier requires fewer aspects done for it. I might make a picture to demonstrate this idea better.
*Takes a big breath to start a long winded description*
Ok. From the beginning, you start out wanting to know about everything. You quickly start researching, trying to cover your bases in the basics of every aspect. Upon reaching a certain proficency with them, you realize that combining the ideas of them might help you further your goals. This is the Startup - first Theory of a little bit of everything. From there, you decide to focus on aspects in two major groups. The destructive (Fire, Time, Air, Death, and Chaos) and the productive (Water, Life, Earth, Nature, Magic). Both separate trees have their own Theory, The Theories of Creation and Destruction. This was part 2. Upon obtaining both of these, you realize that in truth, they are one and the same and proceed to unify these research trees. This leads up to T3, as you truely have a Theory for everything. From this, you decide that you want to master each aspect, and decide that the best way to control them is not to research just them, but also their rivals (as is listed a few paragraphs above). You see that they perfectly control one another (fire controls water, as water controls fire) and want to see if you yourself can obtain this true mastery over the elements though this. Perhaps you could add in a final stage where you have obtained true mastery over every element past this, finally reunifying the entire tree.
Ok, that's finished. Taking a breath now.
Ima head back to the ideas about the world gen temples of some sort or another, as talking about the above has sparked some ideas in my mind. Just going to list temple ideas for each node type.
1. Water Temple - A massive vortex in the ocean, that at the center has frozen ruin with a large water-spout bursting out. The node is in the center of this waterspout coming out of the ruins.
2. Air Temple - An ancient city flying high above the plains/extreme hills/tundra biomes. In the center rages a tornado which has the node within.
3. Death Temple - Deep in the Nether an ancient beast once fell, and its bones, as well as it's fossilized, burning heart guard a node of flame. As well as the hundreds of Wither skeletons. Don't forget the Wither Skeletons. *The bones might very well be made of 1.5 marble, as an idea*
4. Flame Temple - A runic castle floating on the surface of the lava lakes of the Nether, with a dangerous population of very infuriated blazes more than happy enough to toast a nearby raider.
5. Nature temple - A massive tree, much larger than average, with a hollowed core guarding the nature node. In jungles or forest.
6. Earth temple - A massive scar in the earth, much larger than a normal ravine(the top of it breaches the ground level, and it's bottom is brushing bedrock, and is about twice to three times as wide), that at it's deepest point has a shard of the lands might (the earth node). Any land based biome.
7. Life Temple - A ruin with a great many automatons and ancient devices. At it's core is a node that if disturbed would revive the entire temple... and not happily. Jungles.
8. Temporal Temple - In the shifting sands of the desert there rest the ruins of a massive hourglass, with shifting sands guarding it (pretty much the node is guarded by a liquid that is textured like sand, and looks like eternally flowing sands.. of time. Oh yea, these sands are also very dangerous, and just touching them affects you with the Wither debuff as you yourself turn to dust...). Obviously in deserts.
9. Magic Temple - A great many aged devises and traps in these hallowed halls, guarded with traps that have long sense ran out of arcane fuel... you hope. Found in Tundra biomes.
10. Chaos Temple - A chaotic structure found only in the End, where the forces that will destroy the world rampage around it, as the Ender Dragon roost above watching over its domain at the end of the world, waiting to bring it's plots to fruit. Well.... did you read this one? It's in the End.
*gasping for breath after talking for way to long strait*
ok, I think I am finally finished.... lolz. Spent much longer on this reply than I intended. Over an hour, to be specific.
I like a lot of the ideas expressed in the quote above, from page 1. I would LOVE to see more worldgen happening, and having to explore to find ruins to further your research in certain 'tech-trees' would add a whole new reason to explore the Overworld and Nether more thoroughly.
So far as simplifying the research system, I'm all for making it a bit more intuitive and more of a puzzle rather than a shot in the dark, but I urge you to aim for more of a middle-ground with the element simplification. I rather like the fact that there are so many aspects to begin with, but agree that there a few too many of them in the current system. One way you could make the research system more of a puzzle and less of a resource-dump is to perhaps redesign the new system to only further your research to a certain point after which you have to actually solve a bit of a riddle yourself before completing the research--instead of being complete when all research components are to 100%, have the system halt with one of the elements missing and leave it up to the player to figure it out. I.E. Researching a spell that has something to do with Fire, Earth, and explosives that seeks to improve a technology that has to do with mining(whose name is not displayed in the gui until the research is complete, unlike the current system, to leave you guessing and so you can't google it lol). The missing component may be insects....exploding mining bees! --Perhaps a little corny, but hey it's just an example, I'm sure you could come up with much more entertaining puzzles to find that final missing component.
On the topic of spellcasting, I think it's a great idea! Though I think it might fit more inline with the rest of the Thaumcraft ideology to have the system structured something more akin to Alchemy. Perhaps adding runes you have to place on the ground in order to cast the spell or perhaps make it so you need to use reagents per spellcast or something on that line of thought, rather then simply using up "Mana" through a wand? I love the 'magic punk' style that Thaumcraft has that sets it apart from typical fantasy magic and think that a typical spellcasting system would detract from that more than I would like =[
I also agree that hotkeys having to do with spellcasting should be kept to a minimum, maybe even simply make you hold shift(sneak) and right click with your want to use the currently selected 'spell' and you just click on the spell gui-hotbar to select a different spell? Then you wouldn't really need any actual hotkeys to add the same functionality and not change flow of gameplay/combat more than necessary?
Don't get rid of the wand of equal trade; it is obviously attuned to the node permutationis.
Speaking of which, while I am fine with a decrease in aspects, I feel like you are going to far.
As stated by some other person above, I like the idea of having "noun"-aspects and "verb"-aspects.
Necessary "noun"-aspects, I feel, are
Aer, Aqua, Terra, Ignis (the four classical elements) are obviously needed
chaos for flux
metallum so metal transmutation can be done without an awkward transmuting earth to iron
As for verb aspects, I suppose we could have
Permutatiocambiens? (changing?) cambire? (to change?)potens? (being able (aka having power)) potesse? (to have power?)
fractusdestruens? (destroying) destruere? (to destroy) < could be also used for attack?sanosanans? sanare? (heal, repair?) (on a completely different note, "make sound" in the original description is very confusing, because sound here is the adjective form, not the other more common terms)And that makes ten?
Not really sure of anything I have said here except for that the nouns above feel like they are required.
It's too bad that auras are so buggy, because I really like them. I think what I like most about them is the way that magic becomes location dependent, which is something that no other mod does. And the tension between short term power gain and the flux it creates makes for a more interesting and challenging game. As long as the new system retains some sort of pollution mechanic and a strong relationship with the local area, I will be happy. Creating, watching, dealing with and running away from various sorts of corruption are my favorite parts of Thaumcraft 2 and 3, and I would love to see this expanded in new and interesting ways.
As for your research system: It seems to me that you have contradictory goals with research. You don't want it to be simple resource collection, because that's what tech mods do, and its boring. But you don't want it to be fully luck dependent, because then research turns into playing a slot machine, which is also boring. Your current method is heavy on resource collection, but it remains fun the first couple times you play, because you don't know the research paths. But once you know the whole research tree, it turns back into simple resource collection.
Luck-based research is like playing a slot machine, item-collection based research is just tech-mod stuff, and discovery based research is only fun once. My advice? Find a way to randomize your tech tree, so that each game research involves discovery. For example, one game you get a massive bonus to fire magic, while your golems cost so much magic that you don't bother making them. Or perhaps the first thing every player researches is a wand that causes damage. But the method of doing damage changes each game. So maybe this game your wand does lighting damage, so you explore more overworld since lighting doesn't work underground, while another game the wand does fire damage, so you explore underground because the wand lets you create light easily. One game you get an intrinsic bonus to magic storage, so you research high cost enchantments, while another game you get a debuff to magic storage but a boost to spell damage, so you research damage spells and explore more. One game you get a huge boost to magic creation, as well as flux creation, so you research how to mitigate flux, while another game you produce little magic and no flux at all, so you research how to boost magic creation. Get the idea?
What you research should be something you can pick ahead of time, so as to allow strategy and long term planning, and how you research should not be luck dependent, since that turns into playing a slot machine. But make the effectiveness of whatever you end up researching luck dependent, and each game will be slightly different and unique.
Not only does this encourage different playstyles and different research choices each game, it also encourages players to trade and interact with other people, since each person has a different set of bonuses. Of course, the drawback is that players might complain because they feel like they're missing out on content, or feel like they got some bad luck and would rather restart the game than continue playing, or that the research tree they've been given is unfair and puts them at a disadvantage to other players, so I'd advise you to make sure that players can eventually research everything and mitigate any weaknesses.
Thanks for making the mod by the way. I look forward to whatever you choose to do.
I get the feeling that these may not all make there way into the mod in a fully realized form in one update. More likely the foundations will be laid and then built upon in consecutive updates. But that's just what I see as the most likely way it would happen.
*Ahem... cough* Sorry...
As it is I adore TC3 at first I really missed some of the parts of TC2 but I really did not miss the uncontrollable taint and never ending cobble grinding in the Q block. The beauty of TC3 very quickly erased any longing I had for the old and I dive into research with gusto. The FIRST thing I do when I set up on a new server is find chickens and cows to breed for research resources... that is before I even find a mine! I do agree that some of the aspects can end up as stacks of vials of essential in chests because they have no use but in that case I would encourage you to incorporate those aspects into a tool or device. Before you abandon TC3 please give it some more time give us some device that we can clean the aura of flux directly with or some other balancing aspect to the things you are satisfied with.
Mind the puddles... they Follow me everywhere... they are addictive and cause madness... they leak from my head <.< >.> Try to drink them
I miss the seals from TC2, especially the teleport seals. Seals that activate and use your own essentia would be cool and balanced.
This stuff all sounds awesome, its so cool the stuff you've been doing. Thanks for keeping this going!
Aspects
After giving things some thought I have decided not to cull the aspect list to less than 24 or so different aspects. I'm still deciding if I'm just going cut off the dead wood (quite literally - there are 5 plant related aspects) or completely reorganize the aspect breakdown.
Research
I've had a bit of an inspiration with the research system which I think will add an intresting dynamic to it, though I don't want to go into details just yet. Lets just say that more than half of your research time would NOT be spent in front of a table staring at a GUI.
Aura
I'm still wracking my brain on the whole matter in regards to the aura and nodes. I'm still leaning heavily towards making them blocks, but there is several problems with the approach. This needs a bit more thought.
Vis
The overwhelming opinion seems to be to keep vis as a resource. I'm still in two minds on the matter, though I am leaning slightly towards keeping it however. It is linked to auras so depending on what I do there will determine if it stays or not.
Spellcasting
Nope. Well, not in the traditional sense of the word at least - it will have a definite magi-punk flavor
RPG Elements
I was never planning on using MC's built in xp system for this especially since there has been rumblings that vanilla might include things like that. I was thinking more along the lines of there being research that alters the way your character does thaumcrafty things - for example a research that reduces vis cost by 10%, or increases damage with the wand of fire by 20%. These researches could possibly even include branching paths so you need to choose between 20% bonus damage or 20% less charge use on the wand.
If I include this it would more than likely come in a later update.