Right, so we who frequent the Politics, Philosophy, News & Society - henceforth PPNS, as we call it - forum have noticed several issues with the staff on this site and their treatment of such a forum.
First and foremost, it is unlike any other forum on the site, and specifically within the Off-Topic section. It caters to a sub-sect of specific-minded individuals, those of a more adult-oriented mindset in regards to controversial and can-often-be heated discussions. Aside from the occasional kid who wanders in, spouting nonsense that they simply parrot from what they've been told only never return to again, it's very much not a target towards such a demographic as the rest of the site. And I dare say it certainly generally isn't within their range of interest. I mean, the median age is probably some where in the mid 20's, with average age possibly something similar.
Secondly, in relation to the prior, it is staffed in a way that is both mishandled and suspect. Mods who simply go by reports without any kind of interest in context of the situation or seem to appear simply for the sake of "fulfilling duties," or perhaps better expressed as boredom with power, rush in ban-happy (well, warning-happy), essentially just cherry-picking the first things they see. Hell, I know I've had plenty of warnings that were inappropriately handed out, and I almost never make a post anywhere else on the entirety of the site. The most damning example that I can think of would be receiving a warning for "troll-calling," when in proper context, it was clearly in reference to a stereotype. Or just recently, several posts were deleted in a topic about the origins in Christmas. Deleted without any kind of warning once so ever, and as far as anyone who actually saw them could tell, violated no rules at all. This isn't the first time either; we've seen posts suddenly gone without explanation before, and while that may be good and all for some one-line spam post - and funnily enough, just happened a little while ago - it's not okay to a post that can amount to two or three paragraphs-worth, not without at least some kind of explanation as to what was wrong.
While I obviously do not nor dare not speak for everyone, I have seen expressed by several other of my fellow PPNS frequenters a dissatisfaction with the modding in this particular forum. Complaints of hypocrisy, complaints of overreach, complaints of lack of communication, complaints of trust in the staff. Fellow commentators who I hope will join in on this discussion with their own opinions on the matter.
Ideally, to offer at least an idea of a solution, would to have a mod more-specifically appointed to moderate that forum at the cost of other mods being allowed such equal oversight. It may be a lively forum, but it isn't exactly like the main body of the site. Especially if it's someone who at least expresses some interest in it. Leniency is a must such topics, they often can be controversial and heated - while I'm not saying flaming should be permitted, there needs to be someone who at least understands that there may be strong emotion tied in with such a discussion. Not someone who just reads a report then hops on it like a cat on a mouse without any forethought. At the very least, show some respect for what it is and how it differs.
I agree with you. I think that a good idea is for the PPNS regulars to discuss this on a different forum. Perhaps Planet Random (a freeforum board)? If there is a mass exodus from PPNS, that might show MCF and possibly curse that we are sick and tired of the bologna they are throwing around here!
As a long-time poster in PPNS, I can attest to this. It's very frustrating to type out long responses and then inexplicably have them deleted for no apparent reason. And these reasons are often never explained either if you ask...in fact, even commenting about deleted posts leads to more deletions. In the case of the Christmas thread mentioned in the OP, I actually got an infraction for asking why they were deleted. Seriously.
At the very least, I think it would be beneficial for mods to explain why posts were removed if it's not otherwise obvious. Firerose's suggestion would definitely be a plus as well...
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I completely agree with you, this is a special part of the forums and should be treated as such. Perhaps a special assessment should be made for moderators applying to moderate these parts of the forums?
First and foremost, it is unlike any other forum on the site, and specifically within the Off-Topic section. It caters to a sub-sect of specific-minded individuals, those of a more adult-oriented mindset in regards to controversial and can-often-be heated discussions. Aside from the occasional kid who wanders in, spouting nonsense that they simply parrot from what they've been told only never return to again, it's very much not a target towards such a demographic as the rest of the site. And I dare say it certainly generally isn't within their range of interest. I mean, the median age is probably some where in the mid 20's, with average age possibly something similar.
This doesn't matter, not in the slightest. It is also not the focus of the site, which is why it is at the bottom. Even if the average age of a mod creator is 30+, they still have to follow all general forum rules as well.
Secondly, in relation to the prior, it is staffed in a way that is both mishandled and suspect. Mods who simply go by reports without any kind of interest in context of the situation or seem to appear simply for the sake of "fulfilling duties," or perhaps better expressed as boredom with power, rush in ban-happy (well, warning-happy), essentially just cherry-picking the first things they see.
Not likely on any account. Yes, off-topic is a bit unique, but I doubt mods are just doing things however they feel like. If, however, this is the case, bring it to the attention of the Off-Topic forum admin. This isn't making a post in a thread saying "Why'd you delete the posts?!" because I'll report every single one of those I see, and I've done so in the past.
Hell, I know I've had plenty of warnings that were inappropriately handed out, and I almost never make a post anywhere else on the entirety of the site. The most damning example that I can think of would be receiving a warning for "troll-calling," when in proper context, it was clearly in reference to a stereotype.
Did you try to clarify it? Mistakes do happen, and if that's the case then contact a forum admin to sort it out.
Or just recently, several posts were deleted in a topic about the origins in Christmas. Deleted without any kind of warning once so ever, and as far as anyone who actually saw them could tell, violated no rules at all. This isn't the first time either; we've seen posts suddenly gone without explanation before, and while that may be good and all for some one-line spam post - and funnily enough, just happened a little while ago - it's not okay to a post that can amount to two or three paragraphs-worth, not without at least some kind of explanation as to what was wrong.
Since I no longer can see deleted posts I can't really say anything about this one, since it's on your word alone.
While I obviously do not nor dare not speak for everyone, I have seen expressed by several other of my fellow PPNS frequenters a dissatisfaction with the modding in this particular forum. Complaints of hypocrisy, complaints of overreach, complaints of lack of communication, complaints of trust in the staff. Fellow commentators who I hope will join in on this discussion with their own opinions on the matter.
Off-topic has always expressed dislike in staff. Too few, too much. Too strict, too lenient. I've never seen OT genuinely satisfied. I've seen comments wanting someone's post to be removed because his opinion was distasteful, but were complaining when their direct attacks on the person were removed. Yeah, I thought the guy's opinion was fairly disgusting, but he didn't break forum rules. The people that responded and insulted him did.
Do you really want us to just remove distasteful comments? I doubt it, because the moment it happens to someone liked we'd be in the same situation.
Or how about some members that had been removed for constant rule breaking, but they were "funny" so people got angry at us for it. Those complaints were fun to deal with.
Ideally, to offer at least an idea of a solution, would to have a mod more-specifically appointed to moderate that forum at the cost of other mods being allowed such equal oversight. It may be a lively forum, but it isn't exactly like the main body of the site. Especially if it's someone who at least expresses some interest in it. Leniency is a must such topics, they often can be controversial and heated - while I'm not saying flaming should be permitted, there needs to be someone who at least understands that there may be strong emotion tied in with such a discussion. Not someone who just reads a report then hops on it like a cat on a mouse without any forethought. At the very least, show some respect for what it is and how it differs.
I do agree that leniency might be required to an extent in Off-Topic sections, but sometimes it's just absurd. I've seen threads off-topic for entire pages that no longer have anything to do with the thread itself, and I've seen people complain about those being removed.
I agree with you. I think that a good idea is for the PPNS regulars to discuss this on a different forum. Perhaps Planet Random (a freeforum board)? If there is a mass exodus from PPNS, that might show MCF and possibly curse that we are sick and tired of the bologna they are throwing around here!
--Ocram
Not likely.
1) Chances are, few would leave. There have been several branch off forums that only had a few members or flat out died after a month.
2) Wouldn't matter anyways. Off-topic is there for convenience, it isn't a focus for the forums.
As a long-time poster in PPNS, I can attest to this. It's very frustrating to type out long responses and then inexplicably have them deleted for no apparent reason. And these reasons are often never explained either if you ask...in fact, even commenting about deleted posts leads to more deletions. In the case of the Christmas thread mentioned in the OP, I actually got an infraction for asking why they were deleted. Seriously.
While a infraction might be a little too much in my opinion, don't make posts "Why'd you delete my posts?" because those are just going to be removed as well (they do qualify as off-topic/spam). PM a forum admin or post in Contact Forum Administration.
I completely agree with you, this is a special part of the forums and should be treated as such. Perhaps a special assessment should be made for moderators applying to moderate these parts of the forums?
That'd be up to the forum admin for the section, but generally they have their own criteria anyways. When I was admin, they had to be actively trying to help people in M&M for me to consider them.
Edit: This post ended up far longer that I like or intended, I'll probably not make more block responses like this rather quote who I'm talking to and remove the quoted content to save space. I prefer this format for clarity but I don't like stretching pages so much in a single post.
1. This is a MINECRAFT forum first and foremost, the off topic section isn't the main focus of this website, and all sections follow the same general rules aswell as some section specific rules.
Yet that does not permit or excuse neither overreach nor inaction. Regardless of the main focus of the site, its brass still created these sections and still holds responsibility in their management.
2. Us moderators and the Admin are here voluntarily and help out n our spare time to be helpful, we do sometimes miss things, we can't check every single thread/post for rules breaks
However, when it is a consistent and reoccurring problem, then it is an issue.
Well, Planet Random has been around since before Minecraft Forum and it has collected about 6 or 7 users from Simtropolis and Minecraft Forum over the years. Sure it has gone quiet, but the administrator (dunbrine47), the Global Moderator (me), and our friends still post (and a couple others post every once in a while).
Well, Planet Random has been around since before Minecraft Forum and it has collected about 6 or 7 users from Simtropolis and Minecraft Forum over the years. Sure it has gone quiet, but the administrator (dunbrine47), the Global Moderator (me), and our friends still post (and a couple others post every once in a while).
--Ocram
6 or 7 people leaving is virtually nothing. Probably more than 6 or 7 people leave every day, but they're replaced instantly by new accounts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
The aim is for all quality PPNS discussions to disappear (less than a dozen people post anything of any quality regularly on PPNS), therefore, imploding PPNS with a dearth of quality posts, leaving only the less desirable and less experienced posters to squabble. Sure, it won't lower your active user base but it will virtually destroy PPNS on MCF.
2. Us moderators and the Admin are here voluntarily and help out n our spare time to be helpful, we do sometimes miss things, we can't check every single thread/post for rules breaks
You guys don't do a very good job at it.I can attest, more than anyone I feel, to the very obvious inexperience of much of the staff on MCF. From people with ~200 posts that never have posted on PPNS infracting me, I have learned that inexperience is a common thing. Many of times I have had to add a forum admin to the PM conversation of my infraction in which the admin that actually knows what he's doing to remove my infraction because, as always, the moderators seem to not know what they're talking about.
The aim is for all quality PPNS discussions to disappear (less than a dozen people post anything of any quality regularly on PPNS), therefore, imploding PPNS with a dearth of quality posts, leaving only the less desirable and less experienced posters to squabble. Sure, it won't lower your active user base but it will virtually destroy PPNS on MCF.
--Ocram
Still doesn't really matter. Regulars leave all of the time, and I doubt all of the regulars would simply leave. Eventually the torch will be picked up by new "regulars" and the cycle begins again.
Even if you managed to get every PPNS regular to leave and the section died for a bit, it'll either stay dead or after some time someone will see it as their chance to become a known regular. If I cared to go through my old PMs and old posts, I could probably find several regulars that haven't existed on this site for a year or more, yet no section has collapsed because of it.
Honestly, more people "left for good" after the chat thread was locked (the first time) and again when it was removed to mcft, and now most of them are back becuase the sites they went to have a dozen people left or died entirely.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Members being replaced by people that will only post once or twice than leave is nothing to really brag about, Beltir.
People go inactive all the time as well, yet no sections die or suffer from it. Overall, the site doesn't suffer one bit if a few people leave, whether temporarily or permanently, and only a dozen people is hardly a big enough exodus to even cause notice.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
People go inactive all the time as well, yet no sections die or suffer from it. Overall, the site doesn't suffer one bit if a few people leave, whether temporarily or permanently, and only a dozen people is hardly a big enough exodus to even cause notice.
Your indifference concerns me and yet proves my point about the staff. Oh well.
Firstly, there's 9 of us. 9 off topic sectional moderators that can help out with that section. Do you know how many forum members there are? 2.4 million. That's 266,000 members/OT mod. Don't expect us to be perfect or get everything.
Secondly, and the main point of the post. If we make a mistake, try approaching us in a nice manner. Some infractions may be judgement calls and some mods may moderate differently. If you think we made a mistake, and then you PM us, berating us with expletives, calling us stupid, and calling the forum corrupt, do you honestly expect to get your infraction overturned? Now, if I had a member message in a kind manner, remaining respectful and nice, I would be a lot more inclined to look into the infraction to see if my judgement was wrong.
Lastly, internet arguing is something that is hard to get good at doing. If a thread is created in PPNS with the sole purpose to argue over something, then you better be careful what you post, because if you are arguing, it's extremely easy to slip an insult, flame remark, or bad word in there, resulting in an infraction. Be careful with what you say.
Firstly, there's 9 of us. 9 off topic sectional moderators that can help out with that section. Do you know how many forum members there are? 2.4 million. That's 266,000 members/OT mod. Don't expect us to be perfect or get everything.
Secondly, and the main point of the post. If we make a mistake, try approaching us in a nice manner. Some infractions may be judgement calls and some mods may moderate differently. If you think we made a mistake, and then you PM us, berating us with expletives, calling us stupid, and calling the forum corrupt, do you honestly expect to get your infraction overturned? Now, if I had a member message in a kind manner, remaining respectful and nice, I would be a lot more inclined to look into the infraction to see if my judgement was wrong.
Lastly, internet arguing is something that is hard to get good at doing. If a thread is created in PPNS with the sole purpose to argue over something, then you better be careful what you post, because if you are arguing, it's extremely easy to slip an insult, flame remark, or bad word in there, resulting in an infraction. Be careful with what you say.
Which if anything further supports that it is a forum that could benefit from someone who is specifically dedicated to that forum. It is nowhere near as wild in its activity as other forums and sections, yet is also much more complicated in its subject matter. And furthermore, you speak of treating the staff with respect yet offer it in a tone that appears to be just as disrespectful. You assume on the problem at hand that it is simply a matter of missing something every once in a while, or that it is a matter of disrespect towards the staff.
When we see posts suddenly disappear with no warning at all and without any kind of explanation, posts that, as far as anyone else can tell, are not breaking any rules, or that when we receive infractions while allowing plenty other goings-on to continue without ramification on a repeated basis, when we get busted inappropriately or otherwise by more staff than spaces on a roulette wheel, especially in such a small and profound forum, it does not speak well to instilling a sense of trust in the staff responsible for such oversights.
Yes, I know there's a lot of people, and yes, I know you are volunteers, and yes, I know you are not perfect, I do not need to be condescended upon to understand that. However, that does not justify allowing such problems to persist, not when it has been a long-standing problem for us and, up until now, we have kept quiet about it outside of private discussion. Perhaps it should have been brought up earlier, but it wasn't, and at least we are bringing it up now.
I am sorry, but I do not recognize you as someone who has ever spoken to us in there, who has ever joined in our discussion, who has ever shown any interest. So my apologies, but I cannot in good conscious trust what you have to say in regards to such a matter. Yes, we argue. And that is a crucial part of our discourse; however, to have those argument suddenly gone with no explanation at all, but the guy who's basically advocating hate speech on a post right above - no, not even that, but quoted in - the post in question is allowed to continue without any kind of consequence, the people who say far worse things who are completely ignored while those few who are tagged suddenly become the bad guys? That's ridiculous. And we've all seen it happen numerous times, those of us who are commonly found there.
If you're so overburdened, then maybe the site needs more management, or a better means of managing. That is not our fault. Nor should your personal opinions towards us actually play into a decision, that is not a good sign. I get it, you're only human, but you can at least attempt to be objective in your decision. If you are there to enforce the rules, the rules do not care about what we think of each other. And I am sorry once again, but if we can criticize each other, then why should I not be allowed to express some degree of dissatisfaction or criticism against what I think is wrong?
And of course, as Abandon_Ships mentions, some of us feel there is a problem of inexperience, especially in regards to the sensitive nature of the topics that we discuss.
It caters to a sub-sect of specific-minded individuals, those of a more adult-oriented mindset in regards to controversial and can-often-be heated discussions.
It caters to a sub-set of teenagers with exaggerated views of themselves. If the users of PPNS were mature adults discussing mature topics, they wouldn't all have a history of insulting each other. I can see your infractions: you don't act like a mature adult. Whether you're talking about Minecraft and Terraria or abortion and genocide, the majority of PPNS posters are immature. Just glancing over the behaviour of frequent posters in that section makes it abundantly clear that there is a serious lack of maturity.
especially in regards to the sensitive nature of the topics that we discuss.
If the topics discussed are so "sensitive" in nature, why do you feel it appropriate to accuse people of being mentally ill with no regard for what you're actually saying? If you had any deep and meaningful understanding of sensitive topics you would not be so brazen in the way you insult people.
I really think that mods should leave a notice in threads if they're going to delete a bunch of posts from it. I've been to two other forums that had this, and I thought it was a beneficial system overall, especially in cases like the aforementioned Christmas thread where the reason isn't remotely obvious. I'm still at a loss as to why it happened at all, considering that they were perfectly on-topic and civil. And this isn't the first time something like this has happened.
Now, I got an informal infraction for spam from commenting about the deleted posts (they weren't just mine either) in that instance. Since a bunch of mods are reading this topic, I'm curious if others think this is a fair or appropriate response.
I really think that mods should leave a notice in threads if they're going to delete a bunch of posts from it. I've been to two other forums that had this, and I thought it was a beneficial system overall, especially in cases like the aforementioned Christmas thread where the reason isn't remotely obvious. I'm still at a loss as to why it happened at all, considering that they were perfectly on-topic and civil. And this isn't the first time something like this has happened.
From what I can see there were a few posts deleted in that thread (around the time you posted), they were either deleted because the person that posted them requested they be deleted (and so any posts quoting that were also removed) or because they were rude. Nothing untoward went on, however our policy has always been that we don't pollute threads with explanations of why posts are deleted. Moderation should be invisible[1], otherwise it turns lengthy topics into a complete mess. If you're ever concerned about moderator action, just send a PM to a forum admin or post in the contact forum administrators section.
Now, I got an informal infraction for spam from commenting about the deleted posts (they weren't just mine either) in that instance. Since a bunch of mods are reading this topic, I'm curious if others think this is a fair or appropriate response.
An informal infraction is our short term solution to the problem of people not being notified when their posts are deleted. Informals don't mean anything, they serve only to indicate to staff that you've been informed and to members to let them know why their posts were deleted, or if they've done something wrong that they need to improve on.
Looking at your informal it seems fair: you posted asking why posts were deleted, it's meaningless spam (has no relevance to the topic) and you could have just asked in the contact staff forum. Your informal was a notice to you that those posts aren't acceptable, which we now have on the record, so in the future if you do the same again staff can see you were notified and take further action.
[1] I don't completely agree with that, unfortunately we're constrained by this platform and forum moderation here is either overwhelmingly visible, or invisible. We opted for invisible; long term I'd like for a middle ground to be found, where moderation is visible for those that want to know, but isn't in the faces of those that don't care. I'll talk more about one day when we have the chance to make progress on it.
First and foremost, it is unlike any other forum on the site, and specifically within the Off-Topic section. It caters to a sub-sect of specific-minded individuals, those of a more adult-oriented mindset in regards to controversial and can-often-be heated discussions. Aside from the occasional kid who wanders in, spouting nonsense that they simply parrot from what they've been told only never return to again, it's very much not a target towards such a demographic as the rest of the site. And I dare say it certainly generally isn't within their range of interest. I mean, the median age is probably some where in the mid 20's, with average age possibly something similar.
Secondly, in relation to the prior, it is staffed in a way that is both mishandled and suspect. Mods who simply go by reports without any kind of interest in context of the situation or seem to appear simply for the sake of "fulfilling duties," or perhaps better expressed as boredom with power, rush in ban-happy (well, warning-happy), essentially just cherry-picking the first things they see. Hell, I know I've had plenty of warnings that were inappropriately handed out, and I almost never make a post anywhere else on the entirety of the site. The most damning example that I can think of would be receiving a warning for "troll-calling," when in proper context, it was clearly in reference to a stereotype. Or just recently, several posts were deleted in a topic about the origins in Christmas. Deleted without any kind of warning once so ever, and as far as anyone who actually saw them could tell, violated no rules at all. This isn't the first time either; we've seen posts suddenly gone without explanation before, and while that may be good and all for some one-line spam post - and funnily enough, just happened a little while ago - it's not okay to a post that can amount to two or three paragraphs-worth, not without at least some kind of explanation as to what was wrong.
While I obviously do not nor dare not speak for everyone, I have seen expressed by several other of my fellow PPNS frequenters a dissatisfaction with the modding in this particular forum. Complaints of hypocrisy, complaints of overreach, complaints of lack of communication, complaints of trust in the staff. Fellow commentators who I hope will join in on this discussion with their own opinions on the matter.
Ideally, to offer at least an idea of a solution, would to have a mod more-specifically appointed to moderate that forum at the cost of other mods being allowed such equal oversight. It may be a lively forum, but it isn't exactly like the main body of the site. Especially if it's someone who at least expresses some interest in it. Leniency is a must such topics, they often can be controversial and heated - while I'm not saying flaming should be permitted, there needs to be someone who at least understands that there may be strong emotion tied in with such a discussion. Not someone who just reads a report then hops on it like a cat on a mouse without any forethought. At the very least, show some respect for what it is and how it differs.
It gets a result.
--Ocram
At the very least, I think it would be beneficial for mods to explain why posts were removed if it's not otherwise obvious. Firerose's suggestion would definitely be a plus as well...
This doesn't matter, not in the slightest. It is also not the focus of the site, which is why it is at the bottom. Even if the average age of a mod creator is 30+, they still have to follow all general forum rules as well.
Not likely on any account. Yes, off-topic is a bit unique, but I doubt mods are just doing things however they feel like. If, however, this is the case, bring it to the attention of the Off-Topic forum admin. This isn't making a post in a thread saying "Why'd you delete the posts?!" because I'll report every single one of those I see, and I've done so in the past.
Did you try to clarify it? Mistakes do happen, and if that's the case then contact a forum admin to sort it out.
Since I no longer can see deleted posts I can't really say anything about this one, since it's on your word alone.
Off-topic has always expressed dislike in staff. Too few, too much. Too strict, too lenient. I've never seen OT genuinely satisfied. I've seen comments wanting someone's post to be removed because his opinion was distasteful, but were complaining when their direct attacks on the person were removed. Yeah, I thought the guy's opinion was fairly disgusting, but he didn't break forum rules. The people that responded and insulted him did.
Do you really want us to just remove distasteful comments? I doubt it, because the moment it happens to someone liked we'd be in the same situation.
Or how about some members that had been removed for constant rule breaking, but they were "funny" so people got angry at us for it. Those complaints were fun to deal with.
I do agree that leniency might be required to an extent in Off-Topic sections, but sometimes it's just absurd. I've seen threads off-topic for entire pages that no longer have anything to do with the thread itself, and I've seen people complain about those being removed.
Not likely.
1) Chances are, few would leave. There have been several branch off forums that only had a few members or flat out died after a month.
2) Wouldn't matter anyways. Off-topic is there for convenience, it isn't a focus for the forums.
While a infraction might be a little too much in my opinion, don't make posts "Why'd you delete my posts?" because those are just going to be removed as well (they do qualify as off-topic/spam). PM a forum admin or post in Contact Forum Administration.
That'd be up to the forum admin for the section, but generally they have their own criteria anyways. When I was admin, they had to be actively trying to help people in M&M for me to consider them.
Edit: This post ended up far longer that I like or intended, I'll probably not make more block responses like this rather quote who I'm talking to and remove the quoted content to save space. I prefer this format for clarity but I don't like stretching pages so much in a single post.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Yet that does not permit or excuse neither overreach nor inaction. Regardless of the main focus of the site, its brass still created these sections and still holds responsibility in their management.
However, when it is a consistent and reoccurring problem, then it is an issue.
It gets a result.
--Ocram
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
--Ocram
You guys don't do a very good job at it.I can attest, more than anyone I feel, to the very obvious inexperience of much of the staff on MCF. From people with ~200 posts that never have posted on PPNS infracting me, I have learned that inexperience is a common thing. Many of times I have had to add a forum admin to the PM conversation of my infraction in which the admin that actually knows what he's doing to remove my infraction because, as always, the moderators seem to not know what they're talking about.
Still doesn't really matter. Regulars leave all of the time, and I doubt all of the regulars would simply leave. Eventually the torch will be picked up by new "regulars" and the cycle begins again.
Even if you managed to get every PPNS regular to leave and the section died for a bit, it'll either stay dead or after some time someone will see it as their chance to become a known regular. If I cared to go through my old PMs and old posts, I could probably find several regulars that haven't existed on this site for a year or more, yet no section has collapsed because of it.
Honestly, more people "left for good" after the chat thread was locked (the first time) and again when it was removed to mcft, and now most of them are back becuase the sites they went to have a dozen people left or died entirely.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Members being replaced by people that will only post once or twice than leave is nothing to really brag about, Beltir.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Your indifference concerns me and yet proves my point about the staff. Oh well.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Secondly, and the main point of the post. If we make a mistake, try approaching us in a nice manner. Some infractions may be judgement calls and some mods may moderate differently. If you think we made a mistake, and then you PM us, berating us with expletives, calling us stupid, and calling the forum corrupt, do you honestly expect to get your infraction overturned? Now, if I had a member message in a kind manner, remaining respectful and nice, I would be a lot more inclined to look into the infraction to see if my judgement was wrong.
Lastly, internet arguing is something that is hard to get good at doing. If a thread is created in PPNS with the sole purpose to argue over something, then you better be careful what you post, because if you are arguing, it's extremely easy to slip an insult, flame remark, or bad word in there, resulting in an infraction. Be careful with what you say.
Which if anything further supports that it is a forum that could benefit from someone who is specifically dedicated to that forum. It is nowhere near as wild in its activity as other forums and sections, yet is also much more complicated in its subject matter. And furthermore, you speak of treating the staff with respect yet offer it in a tone that appears to be just as disrespectful. You assume on the problem at hand that it is simply a matter of missing something every once in a while, or that it is a matter of disrespect towards the staff.
When we see posts suddenly disappear with no warning at all and without any kind of explanation, posts that, as far as anyone else can tell, are not breaking any rules, or that when we receive infractions while allowing plenty other goings-on to continue without ramification on a repeated basis, when we get busted inappropriately or otherwise by more staff than spaces on a roulette wheel, especially in such a small and profound forum, it does not speak well to instilling a sense of trust in the staff responsible for such oversights.
Yes, I know there's a lot of people, and yes, I know you are volunteers, and yes, I know you are not perfect, I do not need to be condescended upon to understand that. However, that does not justify allowing such problems to persist, not when it has been a long-standing problem for us and, up until now, we have kept quiet about it outside of private discussion. Perhaps it should have been brought up earlier, but it wasn't, and at least we are bringing it up now.
I am sorry, but I do not recognize you as someone who has ever spoken to us in there, who has ever joined in our discussion, who has ever shown any interest. So my apologies, but I cannot in good conscious trust what you have to say in regards to such a matter. Yes, we argue. And that is a crucial part of our discourse; however, to have those argument suddenly gone with no explanation at all, but the guy who's basically advocating hate speech on a post right above - no, not even that, but quoted in - the post in question is allowed to continue without any kind of consequence, the people who say far worse things who are completely ignored while those few who are tagged suddenly become the bad guys? That's ridiculous. And we've all seen it happen numerous times, those of us who are commonly found there.
If you're so overburdened, then maybe the site needs more management, or a better means of managing. That is not our fault. Nor should your personal opinions towards us actually play into a decision, that is not a good sign. I get it, you're only human, but you can at least attempt to be objective in your decision. If you are there to enforce the rules, the rules do not care about what we think of each other. And I am sorry once again, but if we can criticize each other, then why should I not be allowed to express some degree of dissatisfaction or criticism against what I think is wrong?
And of course, as Abandon_Ships mentions, some of us feel there is a problem of inexperience, especially in regards to the sensitive nature of the topics that we discuss.
It gets a result.
It caters to a sub-set of teenagers with exaggerated views of themselves. If the users of PPNS were mature adults discussing mature topics, they wouldn't all have a history of insulting each other. I can see your infractions: you don't act like a mature adult. Whether you're talking about Minecraft and Terraria or abortion and genocide, the majority of PPNS posters are immature. Just glancing over the behaviour of frequent posters in that section makes it abundantly clear that there is a serious lack of maturity.
A mature and responsible adult deals with issues by bringing them to the people that can address them.
Then offer to help?
If the topics discussed are so "sensitive" in nature, why do you feel it appropriate to accuse people of being mentally ill with no regard for what you're actually saying? If you had any deep and meaningful understanding of sensitive topics you would not be so brazen in the way you insult people.
Now, I got an informal infraction for spam from commenting about the deleted posts (they weren't just mine either) in that instance. Since a bunch of mods are reading this topic, I'm curious if others think this is a fair or appropriate response.
From what I can see there were a few posts deleted in that thread (around the time you posted), they were either deleted because the person that posted them requested they be deleted (and so any posts quoting that were also removed) or because they were rude. Nothing untoward went on, however our policy has always been that we don't pollute threads with explanations of why posts are deleted. Moderation should be invisible[1], otherwise it turns lengthy topics into a complete mess. If you're ever concerned about moderator action, just send a PM to a forum admin or post in the contact forum administrators section.
An informal infraction is our short term solution to the problem of people not being notified when their posts are deleted. Informals don't mean anything, they serve only to indicate to staff that you've been informed and to members to let them know why their posts were deleted, or if they've done something wrong that they need to improve on.
Looking at your informal it seems fair: you posted asking why posts were deleted, it's meaningless spam (has no relevance to the topic) and you could have just asked in the contact staff forum. Your informal was a notice to you that those posts aren't acceptable, which we now have on the record, so in the future if you do the same again staff can see you were notified and take further action.
[1] I don't completely agree with that, unfortunately we're constrained by this platform and forum moderation here is either overwhelmingly visible, or invisible. We opted for invisible; long term I'd like for a middle ground to be found, where moderation is visible for those that want to know, but isn't in the faces of those that don't care. I'll talk more about one day when we have the chance to make progress on it.