Speaking as a coder, this definitely looks like a pixel format issue (closely tied to endianness). And the sound could easily be as well. Definitely requires fixing if anyone hopes to mine on anything other than an x86 (can anyone say iOS or a 360?? Yes, that'd be a *lot* more work than solving this issue).
Quote from Palidin »
Im going to say this again.
If you have a PPC processor, you will get this bug, as PPC processor is a really old and out-dated processor.
You will also get issues with many other games. Its time to upgrade to an intel, and join the rest of us.
Great, now I'm going to rant about PPC. Way to go, Palidin.
I tend to bristle a little when someone says PPC is old or backwards. From an assembly language standpoint, x86 is abysmal and archaic. And slow -- PPCs have a larger number of generic registers enabling programs to perform complex computations while reducing costly memory accesses. The reason you don't notice much of a difference between the architectures is a question of caching and software optimization. PPCs running unoptimized code are compared to heavily optimized x86 code. Seriously. There are almost no PPC optimizations in GCC (a widely used c++ compiler, although they did add AltiVec/VMX or whatever in a recent release) while what it does to x86 code is amazing to say the least. But this was part of the PPC design. Assembly programming on RISC architectures (PPC, ARM, MIPS...) is way easier too -- don't have to remember all the different opcodes for all the different memory address mode combinations, your memory addresses are readable... In light that more architectures have migrated towards RISC models over time since the ancient days of VAX, x86 is way behind the times.
So why did Apple choose Intel over PPC and why is x86 by far the most popular CPU, you ask (in consumer desktops, anyway -- ARM blows x86 out of the water by numbers alone and PPC has the game console market)? "It's popular because it's popular." Intel hit critical mass on the market share mostly thanks to the cheap-as-dirt x86 computers slapped together with substandard parts (read: Dell sucks). Hell, even Intel wants to dump x86, but can't do it cold turkey (see their original plan for the P4 and enhancements in the Atom, Core and i7/5/3 lines). Apple essentially had no choice because IBM* wasn't producing enough PPCs to keep up with demand and Microsoft and Sony were paying more for the X-Box 360 (PPC) and PS3 (Cell - uses a PPC core) CPUs.
*I include licensed fabricators when I say "IBM".
What's interesting (to me, because I'm a dork) is that all PPC CPUs since at least the 601 (first Apple use) are bi-endian. They can run in little-endian mode. I always wonder why Linux doesn't take the lazy route and not worry about endianness issues (this is a gross simplification). Although I am glad they didn't.
And don't get me started on the beauty of the PowerPC CHRP platform's (what most people mean when they say PPC) OpenFirmware compared to the horrid quagmire of your "historic" x86 PC BIOS. EFI is a move in the right direction.
In all seriousness, CISC (x86...) and RISC (PPC, ARM, MIPS, Alpha, blah, blah, blah...) all share most of the same features nowadays anyway. One could argue that today's superscalar/microcode CISC processors are really RISC emulating CISC. Or that there are no true RISCs. But CPUs called "RISC" tend to be more power efficient, and x86 has lots of other issues like putting the bytes in the wrong place (lowest significance first? Really, who does that?!). And for people who remain adamant that PPC isn't as "advanced" as an x86, I like to point out that a Pentium4 is essentially an overclocked Motorola 68060. Yeah, Intel is totally "advanced". :tongue.gif:
Ok, rant over. Should be able to hold it in for another few months; at least on the PPC/endianness front. I've got one about the pipe dream that is Java brewing just below the surface. :wink.gif:
Speaking as a coder, this definitely looks like a pixel format issue (closely tied to endianness).
Pixel Format? I was playing around with the OpenGL debugger installed with OS X Leopard's developers tools.
There was an option for running apps with custom pixel format settings.
Maybe someone with knowledge of what everything does can tweak the settings and patch the java class files.
so idk if this would work but couldnt we just download bootcamp or parallels and run windows on the computer and have minecraft run through that?
Neither Bootcamp or Parallels work on PPC computers. Of course if you were using a Mac that could run windows, you wouldn't have this problem with Minecraft to begin with.
Bummer. I was all set to buy the game until this, as my primary computer is a G4 PPC. :sad.gif:
I wouldn't let this be a deal breaker. One thing you have to keep in mind at this point is that the game is still in alpha stages, so not everything is going to work perfectly anyway.
As for the problem with G4 and other PPC Macs, Notch may or may not be aware of the issue. However, he is actively taking bug reports and moving the game forward into beta. This should be fixed soon, as it's a pretty simple modification needed in Minecraft's code itself. Our entire situation with Minecraft on PPC macs is basically an oversight that Notch didn't anticipate.
By the time SMP is in beta (all multiplayer mechanics work as they do in single player), I see this being fixed promptly. To speed up this process, make sure you follow the link to Get Satisfaction posted above and leave a comment on the bug report.
I just wanted to say seeing as thus far your rant has been ignored that I'm glad to see there are still people out their that appreciate how superior "PowerPC architecture" is over "x86" and are that passionate about getting the facts straight.
Heh, it's probably for the best that it is ignored; I don't want to derail the thread into a vs. match. :smile.gif: But I do get a little worried when people assume what's popular is "best"... I'm too old to put up with these idgit kids equating success with superiority. Kidding!
Anyway, has there been any official word on this issue at all yet? Has Notch replied to anyone's emails/twitter messages/whatever about it? I only ask because I seem to readily find plenty of topics on here and other places reporting the problem but no where can I find official acknowledgement of it. And having only just bought the game recently, only to download and play it on my G4 to find this... Mess... I was quite disappointed.
One can only hope that despite the apparent lack of communication from the development team, it has been noted and may even be fixed for this upcoming Beta of Minecraft. Still, official word now would be nice.
I could probably play it even with the backwards colours if only the sound wasn't completely borked and the performance wasn't suffering as an apparent result (I get frame rate drops seemingly only when the sound is chugging out bursts of static). And yet Minecraft "Classic" runs so nicely...
No news as of yet. not even on the Get Satisfaction website which he supposedly checks the most for things. To be fair though, he IS getting ready to release Beta..
No news as of yet. not even on the Get Satisfaction website which he supposedly checks the most for things. To be fair though, he IS getting ready to release Beta..
to be even more fair, we've been trying to get his attention since september.
Speaking as a coder, this definitely looks like a pixel format issue (closely tied to endianness). And the sound could easily be as well. Definitely requires fixing if anyone hopes to mine on anything other than an x86 (can anyone say iOS or a 360?? Yes, that'd be a *lot* more work than solving this issue).
Great, now I'm going to rant about PPC. Way to go, Palidin.
I tend to bristle a little when someone says PPC is old or backwards. From an assembly language standpoint, x86 is abysmal and archaic. And slow -- PPCs have a larger number of generic registers enabling programs to perform complex computations while reducing costly memory accesses. The reason you don't notice much of a difference between the architectures is a question of caching and software optimization. PPCs running unoptimized code are compared to heavily optimized x86 code. Seriously. There are almost no PPC optimizations in GCC (a widely used c++ compiler, although they did add AltiVec/VMX or whatever in a recent release) while what it does to x86 code is amazing to say the least. But this was part of the PPC design. Assembly programming on RISC architectures (PPC, ARM, MIPS...) is way easier too -- don't have to remember all the different opcodes for all the different memory address mode combinations, your memory addresses are readable... In light that more architectures have migrated towards RISC models over time since the ancient days of VAX, x86 is way behind the times.
So why did Apple choose Intel over PPC and why is x86 by far the most popular CPU, you ask (in consumer desktops, anyway -- ARM blows x86 out of the water by numbers alone and PPC has the game console market)? "It's popular because it's popular." Intel hit critical mass on the market share mostly thanks to the cheap-as-dirt x86 computers slapped together with substandard parts (read: Dell sucks). Hell, even Intel wants to dump x86, but can't do it cold turkey (see their original plan for the P4 and enhancements in the Atom, Core and i7/5/3 lines). Apple essentially had no choice because IBM* wasn't producing enough PPCs to keep up with demand and Microsoft and Sony were paying more for the X-Box 360 (PPC) and PS3 (Cell - uses a PPC core) CPUs.
*I include licensed fabricators when I say "IBM".
What's interesting (to me, because I'm a dork) is that all PPC CPUs since at least the 601 (first Apple use) are bi-endian. They can run in little-endian mode. I always wonder why Linux doesn't take the lazy route and not worry about endianness issues (this is a gross simplification). Although I am glad they didn't.
And don't get me started on the beauty of the PowerPC CHRP platform's (what most people mean when they say PPC) OpenFirmware compared to the horrid quagmire of your "historic" x86 PC BIOS. EFI is a move in the right direction.
In all seriousness, CISC (x86...) and RISC (PPC, ARM, MIPS, Alpha, blah, blah, blah...) all share most of the same features nowadays anyway. One could argue that today's superscalar/microcode CISC processors are really RISC emulating CISC. Or that there are no true RISCs. But CPUs called "RISC" tend to be more power efficient, and x86 has lots of other issues like putting the bytes in the wrong place (lowest significance first? Really, who does that?!). And for people who remain adamant that PPC isn't as "advanced" as an x86, I like to point out that a Pentium4 is essentially an overclocked Motorola 68060. Yeah, Intel is totally "advanced". :tongue.gif:
Ok, rant over. Should be able to hold it in for another few months; at least on the PPC/endianness front. I've got one about the pipe dream that is Java brewing just below the surface. :wink.gif:
Pixel Format? I was playing around with the OpenGL debugger installed with OS X Leopard's developers tools.
There was an option for running apps with custom pixel format settings.
Maybe someone with knowledge of what everything does can tweak the settings and patch the java class files.
I call it the wall of inconvenience
Anyone else have this bizarre problem?
I don't think so. It has to do with the processor—the computer hardware itself—not the operating system.
Neither Bootcamp or Parallels work on PPC computers. Of course if you were using a Mac that could run windows, you wouldn't have this problem with Minecraft to begin with.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=25875
i posted a very detailed description of our problem there, (which notch actually checks) and it will hopefully get added to the list of known bugs.
You forgot to mention the high pitched screeching static sound and music.
Crap you're right, adding that now. thanks!
http://getsatisfaction.com/mojang/topic ... cy_problem
which, according to his blog post, notch says he will check regularly.
I wouldn't let this be a deal breaker. One thing you have to keep in mind at this point is that the game is still in alpha stages, so not everything is going to work perfectly anyway.
As for the problem with G4 and other PPC Macs, Notch may or may not be aware of the issue. However, he is actively taking bug reports and moving the game forward into beta. This should be fixed soon, as it's a pretty simple modification needed in Minecraft's code itself. Our entire situation with Minecraft on PPC macs is basically an oversight that Notch didn't anticipate.
By the time SMP is in beta (all multiplayer mechanics work as they do in single player), I see this being fixed promptly. To speed up this process, make sure you follow the link to Get Satisfaction posted above and leave a comment on the bug report.
Aaaargh! My post didn't go through or something…anyway, someone already reported it.
Heh, it's probably for the best that it is ignored; I don't want to derail the thread into a vs. match. :smile.gif: But I do get a little worried when people assume what's popular is "best"... I'm too old to put up with these idgit kids equating success with superiority. Kidding!
Time to go watch some BetaMax. :biggrin.gif:
No news as of yet. not even on the Get Satisfaction website which he supposedly checks the most for things. To be fair though, he IS getting ready to release Beta..
to be even more fair, we've been trying to get his attention since september.