Okay, I was super excited about this update before I got to play it, and now that I have hit the 24 hour gameplay marker for 1.8 (including pre-release play) I am kinda... upset.
Endermen were going to be something to intensify the survival/horror/suspense aspect of the game. I figured they would affect me like the skeleton's arrow-firing sound (I nearly jump out of my skin everytime I hear it), only be more long-lasting. Instead, I can't FORCE myself to care whether they exist or not at any given moment in-game.
I have several major problems with them as they are in-game.
1. They are incredibly insensitive to player view. When I first saw one, I wanted to test to see how they looked when you bothered them, and it was actually a challenge to look at it directly enough for it to care at only 15 blocks away. It didn't seem to mind until I was looking dead-center on it's body from the base of the body or higher. That was just horrible. I found out later that if you swipe your cursor past them, it doesn't phase them at all. You have to (almost)literally stare into it's eyes to get it to even look back.
2. They are overly cautious. They're three meters tall, and they seem to only be willing to teleport into spaces 4 meters tall or higher. Which means meeting one in an abandoned mineshaft is a joke. First, I ran into three of them clustered in one stretch, and I stared at one, hoping for a fight, but it didn't even notice me until I was in the same segment as it (there were wooden joists between us, and it didn't pay me any attention even though It was fully in my view). When I got right up to it and stared, it looked back, but didn't teleport or anything till I attacked it, and then it actually teleported into a big open room far away and was stuck there. I couldn't get it to attack me. I've also confronted them out in the open, and they more often than not teleport several blocks away from you, and then walk towards you. This gives them INCREDIBLE weakness.
3. They look... silly. They have soft-hued eyes, jitter when stared at, and overal just... don't have one intimidating quality to them. I personally am not intimidated by quick small movments that don't stop. I had expected them to sharply turn to me and stare silently at me, or even give off an iritated and menacing hiss or shriek. Instead, it just gapes its mouth and has an epileptic fit. I half expect it to begin frothing little cube bubbles and keel over dead. Notch did an epic job of describing a terrifying lurking horror. He didn't even execute it the way he described, though.
4. They SOUND lame. In suspense in cinema, sound is EVERYTHING. I had expected some ingenious soundwork for such a well-planned mob. Instead, I get to hear zombies. Don't get me wrong. When I was fresh to minecraft, the zombie sound in a dark cave really drove me crazy (in a good way). Now... it's just a little heads-up that there's darkness nearby. Skeletons and Creepers are the only monsters that kept me on edge after over 100 hours of gameplay.
Suspense is just an atmosphere that comes from the clash of suspicion and uncertainty.The shifting ballance of the two is what keeps the atmosphere worthwhile. Endermen don't even begin to create any suspenseful atmosphere, and since they weren't meant to be horrific, and they aren't creepy, they're just.... annoying at best.
I can easily list all the things that would create some suspense around Endermen.
1. Sensitivity. This is the easiest thing. A direct stare may accidentally happen once in a dozen minecrafter's lifetimes. INstead, I believe they should have their own randomized sensitivity. Imagine a set of a dozen circles of increasing size aroudn your cursor, the last one hitting the vertical height limit of your monitor. Some would get angry when you hit them with the inner 3 circles, and others would be much more sensitive, reacting to the inner 7. obviously going out further would be too much, but I think the direct cursor-lock should be only really used for keeping them stuck in one place. They should be much easier to anger, but not 100% predictably so. I believe higher sensitivities (like the inner 7 or even the inner 5) should be only for players doing this game in Hard mode. A more passive one like the inner 2-4 would make them much more managable for Normal players.
2. Appearance. Okay, Notch got their shape right, but epilepsy isn't really something I can take seriously in a unknown horror. The jitters need to go, and possibly the gaping mouth(though if it were to glow, the gaping mouth could be cool.) The eyes need to have passive and aggresive modes. Maybe glowing more fiercely and losing their color when Endermen get angry. The soft colors are perfectly fine for a passive Endermen, but not for a killer. I think they should also have some effect over surrounding lighting levels, or perhaps be light-obsorbtive themselves. As it is, their ashen gray isn't effective in any lighting level, adn personally, I think Minecraft's new lighting system has the minimum lighting set too high. They look kinda vulnerable being dark gray in a world full of every color but that particular gray. I think it would be nice if the lighting levels around it were dramatically reduced when it was aggresive, possibly causing everythign around it to give off that smoking ash particle effect. Just a thought.
3. Behaviour. Sure, the teleportation is kinda... neat... but they dont' do it enough, and they don't seem to care if you walk right up to them and slash them to ribbons as long as you don't stare at them above the torso. I believe they should hamper your attack speed when they teleport up to you, less attacking and more overpowering you. I like that they can vanish from under your sword while they're in aggresive mode, and don't always get right to attacking you afterwards, but sometimes they teleport to in front of you far enough away for you to look at them to freeze them again for a free hit. They really need to be alot more concerned for their own well-being, but still feel motivated enough to rip you apart for looking at them funny. They are perfeclty fine being burnt to pearls when the sun rises while sounding just like stupid zombies. I'd expect them to seek refuge from the sun, holing up in dark caves, or sometimes even paying your house a visit, walking around (without picking up blocks) while they wait for the sun to set again. I think it would be quite neat if they even showed adjusted behaviour when they teleported from the sun into a player's well-lit home, perhaps staring at you and observing you, not offering you any harm even when you look directly at them. It would increase the mistique of this particular mob, and create a sense of wonder that is currently lacking around them. Creepers are more intriguing, especially with their current behaviour with doors. If they see you enter a door, they wait at it, and even if you present yourself to view away from the door, if they can't path to you directly, they often just ignore you, while waiting patiently to be let in.
4. Sound. They should trigger ambient sound-events that uniquely alert players to the presence of something horrible somewhere nearby. Something.... spinechilling. Whispers maybe... Whatever it is, it should be out-of-place for where the player is, and should warp any other sounds. I believe audible sounds of the players suspense should be present too. Heartbeats or even dampenign and warping of sounds like a rush of blood to the head would cause. They should be erratic too. Sometimes whispering quietness, sometimes shrill shrieks.
5. Player effects. That shaking thing they do now is more what the player should be doing. One of the Endermen's "attacks" should be something that dramatically reduces the sensitivity of the person's mouse, making it feel like just turning your head is like trudging through mud. It would be temporary, but last long enough to freak out the player that was so unfortunate as to anger the Enderman. Slight visual jitters would be nice too. I think some blurred vision would be another neat effect, but that might be outside of the scope of what the developers would be willing to mess with. I dunno. I just think depth-of-field would work very well with increasing the overall suspense and intensity of Minecraft. Field of Vision isn't... well... I have no idea what it's supposed to be for. It's... funky. I guess I only care about that becuase when I first saw that slider in my menu I got all psyched, but then realized it was just vision broadening instead of depth sensing.
I just really think Endermen should be in heavy development right now, because they are just... too little to ammount to anything.
i agree with everything you said.
endermen are stupid.
i have a good idea of how to make them better but honestly at this point ive just given up on minecraft. 1.8 is a catastrophe. and its all notches fault for being a terrible and lazy game designer.
get a bigger team notch. stop working secret ******** that nobody cares about and finish minecraft.
Woah there. I think that's more than just a little bit of an overreaction, sir. I love 1.8. Secret stuff is awesome. Surprises are win. Endermen just need lots of fixing. I just hope they are similar to the experience system: The independently dysfunctional first step towards something huge.
they could do what gygax did in DnD with teh rust monster, he wanted a very powerful enemy, but one whom inflicted no harm. the ender have this ability to move blocks. if they made them vulnerable to only water and gave some sort of disadvatage for stareing, such as multiplying or causing you to see multiple when theres only one, or even causing the player to becom paralized when you stare at them(with exceptions of mouse movement) (if they did this theres no need to take away them being hurt by weapons)and let them stalk the player instead of attacking. periodically giving off some wispers, and just follwo you around
while they follow they would move their blocks around, maybe have them coded to try and build specific things, like a monument to their creator, or a sign of warning. eventually fidnign your home, and taking your walls apart to build these obscure structures, these statues of bizzare quality. instead of being dangerous, just being plain creepy.
its all notches fault for being a terrible and lazy game designer.
get a bigger team notch. stop working secret ******** that nobody cares about and finish minecraft.
Pretty much this :S
Those "secret" games look terribad. I would NEVER play one.
I like a lot of the things you said, but I'm not very fond of the idea of them going into your house regardless of how they normally can't spawn there. I get close enough to a heart attack from Minecraft anyway. I don't want to file lawsuits. :P
Also, I don't like the fear effects. It's very limiting to your character, dictating that they have to be scared of the situation. What if they're professionals at hunting down the beasts, know the tricks, are used to the things they do? Then they have to be scared just like any of the little brown-haired smiley goofs running around.
Woah there. I think that's more than just a little bit of an overreaction, sir. I love 1.8. Secret stuff is awesome. Surprises are win. Endermen just need lots of fixing. I just hope they are similar to the experience system: The independently dysfunctional first step towards something huge.
I'm pretty sure that the secret ******** he's talking about is him working on other games regardless of the projects he already has. :tongue.gif:
I like a lot of the things you said, but I'm not very fond of the idea of them going into your house regardless of how they normally can't spawn there. I get close enough to a heart attack from Minecraft anyway. I don't want to file lawsuits. :P
Also, I don't like the fear effects. It's very limiting to your character, dictating that they have to be scared of the situation. What if they're professionals at hunting down the beasts, know the tricks, are used to the things they do? Then they have to be scared just like any of the little brown-haired smiley goofs running around.
But other than that, I like it.
It's true the fear effects might be pretty out-of-place in the long run, but your character is who-knows-who from who-knows-where who (in most of my 1.8 worlds) woke up one morning wearing just his clothes on top of a tall pine tree without a clue as to how he got there. The world is a nightmare. A deliciously amazing unforgettable nightmare that I hope I never have to wake up from. It's beautiful and terrifying, and I'm pretty sure Minecraft Steve is nothing more than a very strong guy with a rapid metabolism and a good head on his shoulders... something of a Gordan Freeman style character as opposed to a Marcus Fenix or Samus Aran.
Woah there. I think that's more than just a little bit of an overreaction, sir. I love 1.8. Secret stuff is awesome. Surprises are win. Endermen just need lots of fixing. I just hope they are similar to the experience system: The independently dysfunctional first step towards something huge.
Still reading through your first post, but I agree with most of your points so far. I actually made a thread just on behavioral changes which could improve them- out of respect for your thread I won't link it here. I think they should be protoNPCs. Not unique individuals, but smart enough to work together in groups.
I like a lot of the things you said, but I'm not very fond of the idea of them going into your house regardless of how they normally can't spawn there. I get close enough to a heart attack from Minecraft anyway. I don't want to file lawsuits. :P
Also, I don't like the fear effects. It's very limiting to your character, dictating that they have to be scared of the situation. What if they're professionals at hunting down the beasts, know the tricks, are used to the things they do? Then they have to be scared just like any of the little brown-haired smiley goofs running around.
But other than that, I like it.
well the thing is if it can teleport whos to say it cant telepathically instill fear within your mind? perhaps make the lower your health and hunger are the weaker you are to their attacks. at full you have slight disadvantages, but the more health your missing and hungrey you are, the more effects stack up
When I defeated my first endermen, I too was disappointed at the fact that there no harder to kill than a zombie and they moan like one to...... Notch has screwed the endermen so bad it's not funny (or scary).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The dragon/eggy feeds on clicks, help out his hunger and click!
1. Brilliant. Variability in how sensitive they are to being looked at would definitely work wonders for how scary they are.
2. I like the idea of having variable eye color- not just for pasive/agresive modes, but between individual endermen. But that's just my personal taste. Having them grow darker when they're agresive would be nice, too.
4. I think a nice, quiet whispering with occasional clicks and chirps (or even other mob sounds) would be best, so that the chirping and click noises would be autable when they're far away, but not the whispering unless they're very, very close.
"Hey, what is a pig doing in my- OH SH**!"
5. I agree that there should be something to discourage players from just staring at the for a long period of time, but interface screws are just ungodly annoying.
5. I agree that there should be something to discourage players from just staring at the for a long period of time, but interface screws are just ungodly annoying.
Maybe messing with the player's control is a bit too much for normal difficulty. I'm personally a big fan of that kind of stuff, though. When you think about it, the key difference between Creative mode and Survival mode is the intensity of cause and effect. Creepers blow you and your house up just you didn't check before you opened your door. But we love to live in fear of them. Or maybe that's just me?
Maybe messing with the player's control is a bit too much for normal difficulty. I'm personally a big fan of that kind of stuff, though. When you think about it, the key difference between Creative mode and Survival mode is the intensity of cause and effect. Creepers blow you and your house up just you didn't check before you opened your door. But we love to live in fear of them. Or maybe that's just me?
It really depends on why kind of interface screw for me. Having my screen slowly go completely black as I look at something, then slowly fade back in when I look away? Scary and fun? Controls rotated/inverted ect? Not fun.
Edit: Here's my thread. We have a lot of the same ideas on their behavior, I think. I don't want to repost them all. Don't worry, I'll link to your thread.
The only qualms i have with Endermen is the actual way you get them to attack you, the zombie-placeholder sound, and their purple eyes. (I preferred the green ones)
As far as i see it, this mob isn't just your cup of tea, or you're in a sour mood.
I have to agree with pretty much every idea you have there. I want the Endermen to be more similar to the original Slenderman. It should be much easier to slip an accidental glance at them, and their AI needs a complete overhaul. I don't want some stupid zombie clone that walks around randomly, teleports several blocks away from you and then hits you (very) lightly. I want an enemy with purpose, striving to take blocks from the landscape to construct some sort of symbol or crop circle-esque object. I want them to teleport behind you, hit much harder, and then only allow you a quick glance at them before they teleport away again. Instead of being able to stare at them as much as you want, they should disappear after a random amount of time. They should have a resistance and attraction to fire, and a weakness and fear of rain, just as is present in the Slenderman mythos. Remove the mouth completely. That has to be their least scary element. They absolutely should be light-absorbant, perhaps utilizing something similar to the bedrock-fog; the nearer you are to one, the dimmer your screen becomes. Ambient sounds are a must. Low whispering, that increases in volume the closer you are to one of our long-armed friends. The noise becomes louder and louder, and eventually when you see the Enderman, it lets out a loud Ghast-like shriek before teleporting away. I have more ideas, but I'm lazy, so I may post them later.
Endermen were going to be something to intensify the survival/horror/suspense aspect of the game. I figured they would affect me like the skeleton's arrow-firing sound (I nearly jump out of my skin everytime I hear it), only be more long-lasting. Instead, I can't FORCE myself to care whether they exist or not at any given moment in-game.
I have several major problems with them as they are in-game.
1. They are incredibly insensitive to player view. When I first saw one, I wanted to test to see how they looked when you bothered them, and it was actually a challenge to look at it directly enough for it to care at only 15 blocks away. It didn't seem to mind until I was looking dead-center on it's body from the base of the body or higher. That was just horrible. I found out later that if you swipe your cursor past them, it doesn't phase them at all. You have to (almost)literally stare into it's eyes to get it to even look back.
2. They are overly cautious. They're three meters tall, and they seem to only be willing to teleport into spaces 4 meters tall or higher. Which means meeting one in an abandoned mineshaft is a joke. First, I ran into three of them clustered in one stretch, and I stared at one, hoping for a fight, but it didn't even notice me until I was in the same segment as it (there were wooden joists between us, and it didn't pay me any attention even though It was fully in my view). When I got right up to it and stared, it looked back, but didn't teleport or anything till I attacked it, and then it actually teleported into a big open room far away and was stuck there. I couldn't get it to attack me. I've also confronted them out in the open, and they more often than not teleport several blocks away from you, and then walk towards you. This gives them INCREDIBLE weakness.
3. They look... silly. They have soft-hued eyes, jitter when stared at, and overal just... don't have one intimidating quality to them. I personally am not intimidated by quick small movments that don't stop. I had expected them to sharply turn to me and stare silently at me, or even give off an iritated and menacing hiss or shriek. Instead, it just gapes its mouth and has an epileptic fit. I half expect it to begin frothing little cube bubbles and keel over dead. Notch did an epic job of describing a terrifying lurking horror. He didn't even execute it the way he described, though.
4. They SOUND lame. In suspense in cinema, sound is EVERYTHING. I had expected some ingenious soundwork for such a well-planned mob. Instead, I get to hear zombies. Don't get me wrong. When I was fresh to minecraft, the zombie sound in a dark cave really drove me crazy (in a good way). Now... it's just a little heads-up that there's darkness nearby. Skeletons and Creepers are the only monsters that kept me on edge after over 100 hours of gameplay.
Suspense is just an atmosphere that comes from the clash of suspicion and uncertainty.The shifting ballance of the two is what keeps the atmosphere worthwhile. Endermen don't even begin to create any suspenseful atmosphere, and since they weren't meant to be horrific, and they aren't creepy, they're just.... annoying at best.
I can easily list all the things that would create some suspense around Endermen.
1. Sensitivity. This is the easiest thing. A direct stare may accidentally happen once in a dozen minecrafter's lifetimes. INstead, I believe they should have their own randomized sensitivity. Imagine a set of a dozen circles of increasing size aroudn your cursor, the last one hitting the vertical height limit of your monitor. Some would get angry when you hit them with the inner 3 circles, and others would be much more sensitive, reacting to the inner 7. obviously going out further would be too much, but I think the direct cursor-lock should be only really used for keeping them stuck in one place. They should be much easier to anger, but not 100% predictably so. I believe higher sensitivities (like the inner 7 or even the inner 5) should be only for players doing this game in Hard mode. A more passive one like the inner 2-4 would make them much more managable for Normal players.
2. Appearance. Okay, Notch got their shape right, but epilepsy isn't really something I can take seriously in a unknown horror. The jitters need to go, and possibly the gaping mouth(though if it were to glow, the gaping mouth could be cool.) The eyes need to have passive and aggresive modes. Maybe glowing more fiercely and losing their color when Endermen get angry. The soft colors are perfectly fine for a passive Endermen, but not for a killer. I think they should also have some effect over surrounding lighting levels, or perhaps be light-obsorbtive themselves. As it is, their ashen gray isn't effective in any lighting level, adn personally, I think Minecraft's new lighting system has the minimum lighting set too high. They look kinda vulnerable being dark gray in a world full of every color but that particular gray. I think it would be nice if the lighting levels around it were dramatically reduced when it was aggresive, possibly causing everythign around it to give off that smoking ash particle effect. Just a thought.
3. Behaviour. Sure, the teleportation is kinda... neat... but they dont' do it enough, and they don't seem to care if you walk right up to them and slash them to ribbons as long as you don't stare at them above the torso. I believe they should hamper your attack speed when they teleport up to you, less attacking and more overpowering you. I like that they can vanish from under your sword while they're in aggresive mode, and don't always get right to attacking you afterwards, but sometimes they teleport to in front of you far enough away for you to look at them to freeze them again for a free hit. They really need to be alot more concerned for their own well-being, but still feel motivated enough to rip you apart for looking at them funny. They are perfeclty fine being burnt to pearls when the sun rises while sounding just like stupid zombies. I'd expect them to seek refuge from the sun, holing up in dark caves, or sometimes even paying your house a visit, walking around (without picking up blocks) while they wait for the sun to set again. I think it would be quite neat if they even showed adjusted behaviour when they teleported from the sun into a player's well-lit home, perhaps staring at you and observing you, not offering you any harm even when you look directly at them. It would increase the mistique of this particular mob, and create a sense of wonder that is currently lacking around them. Creepers are more intriguing, especially with their current behaviour with doors. If they see you enter a door, they wait at it, and even if you present yourself to view away from the door, if they can't path to you directly, they often just ignore you, while waiting patiently to be let in.
4. Sound. They should trigger ambient sound-events that uniquely alert players to the presence of something horrible somewhere nearby. Something.... spinechilling. Whispers maybe... Whatever it is, it should be out-of-place for where the player is, and should warp any other sounds. I believe audible sounds of the players suspense should be present too. Heartbeats or even dampenign and warping of sounds like a rush of blood to the head would cause. They should be erratic too. Sometimes whispering quietness, sometimes shrill shrieks.
5. Player effects. That shaking thing they do now is more what the player should be doing. One of the Endermen's "attacks" should be something that dramatically reduces the sensitivity of the person's mouse, making it feel like just turning your head is like trudging through mud. It would be temporary, but last long enough to freak out the player that was so unfortunate as to anger the Enderman. Slight visual jitters would be nice too. I think some blurred vision would be another neat effect, but that might be outside of the scope of what the developers would be willing to mess with. I dunno. I just think depth-of-field would work very well with increasing the overall suspense and intensity of Minecraft. Field of Vision isn't... well... I have no idea what it's supposed to be for. It's... funky. I guess I only care about that becuase when I first saw that slider in my menu I got all psyched, but then realized it was just vision broadening instead of depth sensing.
I just really think Endermen should be in heavy development right now, because they are just... too little to ammount to anything.
endermen are stupid.
i have a good idea of how to make them better but honestly at this point ive just given up on minecraft. 1.8 is a catastrophe. and its all notches fault for being a terrible and lazy game designer.
get a bigger team notch. stop working secret ******** that nobody cares about and finish minecraft.
they could do what gygax did in DnD with teh rust monster, he wanted a very powerful enemy, but one whom inflicted no harm. the ender have this ability to move blocks. if they made them vulnerable to only water and gave some sort of disadvatage for stareing, such as multiplying or causing you to see multiple when theres only one, or even causing the player to becom paralized when you stare at them(with exceptions of mouse movement) (if they did this theres no need to take away them being hurt by weapons)and let them stalk the player instead of attacking. periodically giving off some wispers, and just follwo you around
while they follow they would move their blocks around, maybe have them coded to try and build specific things, like a monument to their creator, or a sign of warning. eventually fidnign your home, and taking your walls apart to build these obscure structures, these statues of bizzare quality. instead of being dangerous, just being plain creepy.
Pretty much this :S
Those "secret" games look terribad. I would NEVER play one.
Also, I don't like the fear effects. It's very limiting to your character, dictating that they have to be scared of the situation. What if they're professionals at hunting down the beasts, know the tricks, are used to the things they do? Then they have to be scared just like any of the little brown-haired smiley goofs running around.
But other than that, I like it.
I'm pretty sure that the secret ******** he's talking about is him working on other games regardless of the projects he already has. :tongue.gif:
It's true the fear effects might be pretty out-of-place in the long run, but your character is who-knows-who from who-knows-where who (in most of my 1.8 worlds) woke up one morning wearing just his clothes on top of a tall pine tree without a clue as to how he got there. The world is a nightmare. A deliciously amazing unforgettable nightmare that I hope I never have to wake up from. It's beautiful and terrifying, and I'm pretty sure Minecraft Steve is nothing more than a very strong guy with a rapid metabolism and a good head on his shoulders... something of a Gordan Freeman style character as opposed to a Marcus Fenix or Samus Aran.
Still reading through your first post, but I agree with most of your points so far. I actually made a thread just on behavioral changes which could improve them- out of respect for your thread I won't link it here. I think they should be protoNPCs. Not unique individuals, but smart enough to work together in groups.
well the thing is if it can teleport whos to say it cant telepathically instill fear within your mind? perhaps make the lower your health and hunger are the weaker you are to their attacks. at full you have slight disadvantages, but the more health your missing and hungrey you are, the more effects stack up
1. Brilliant. Variability in how sensitive they are to being looked at would definitely work wonders for how scary they are.
2. I like the idea of having variable eye color- not just for pasive/agresive modes, but between individual endermen. But that's just my personal taste. Having them grow darker when they're agresive would be nice, too.
4. I think a nice, quiet whispering with occasional clicks and chirps (or even other mob sounds) would be best, so that the chirping and click noises would be autable when they're far away, but not the whispering unless they're very, very close.
"Hey, what is a pig doing in my- OH SH**!"
5. I agree that there should be something to discourage players from just staring at the for a long period of time, but interface screws are just ungodly annoying.
Maybe messing with the player's control is a bit too much for normal difficulty. I'm personally a big fan of that kind of stuff, though. When you think about it, the key difference between Creative mode and Survival mode is the intensity of cause and effect. Creepers blow you and your house up just you didn't check before you opened your door. But we love to live in fear of them. Or maybe that's just me?
It really depends on why kind of interface screw for me. Having my screen slowly go completely black as I look at something, then slowly fade back in when I look away? Scary and fun? Controls rotated/inverted ect? Not fun.
Edit: Here's my thread. We have a lot of the same ideas on their behavior, I think. I don't want to repost them all. Don't worry, I'll link to your thread.
As far as i see it, this mob isn't just your cup of tea, or you're in a sour mood.
The re-dead scream? That was epic. Those things scare the jeeves out of me.