A good middle ground would be great. If they made more restrictions on what can be gained at certain levels, to decrease the massive range of the randomness, while maintaining the fun aspect of the randomness. So as a simple example, at 20+ you no longer see Level I's, at 30+ you no longer see level II's, and 40+ you no longer see level III's. (Following the rules of course, since some can't get that high, but are clearly worth while) And then maybe every 5 levels in (25+, 35+, 45+) it's impossible to only receive one enchantment, minimum being two, before it hits the next tier. That would guarantee you wouldn't be wasting the levels, but maintain a very random outcome.
Again, just a simple example I came up with while writing the post, but it would do the job more or less.
A good middle ground would be great. If they made more restrictions on what can be gained at certain levels, to decrease the massive range of the randomness, while maintaining the fun aspect of the randomness. So as a simple example, at 20+ you no longer see Level I's, at 30+ you no longer see level II's, and 40+ you no longer see level III's. (Following the rules of course, since some can't get that high, but are clearly worth while) And then maybe every 5 levels in (25+, 35+, 45+) it's impossible to only receive one enchantment, minimum being two, before it hits the next tier. That would guarantee you wouldn't be wasting the levels, but maintain a very random outcome.
Again, just a simple example I came up with while writing the post, but it would do the job more or less.
That would be much better.
If we compare this to the binding of isaac, I think we can draw some interesting comclusions. For those of you who haven't played it, its essentially a rougelike arena shooter. you have random leels, and part of that is random loot. The random loot is both its flaw and its strength. One one hand, its fun to get random bonuses, and play through with a different set of abilities. On the other hand, its really annoying when it gives you 5 range upgrades(they really aren't that useful. 1 or 2 are good, but past that they are pointless), when you really need some more health.
What you need is for the magnitude of your bonuses to stay in the proper range to maintain balance, while maintaining the unpredictability of what it does to keep it interesting.
Your suggestion would seem to address it nicely.
I just assume that enchanting will be balanced over time.
For now I just explore and every other night I enchant another piece of equipment and move on. If I don't need it right away I throw it in a chest for later.
I usually enchant items between 7 and 12. That's all.
It's all you need, it's not worth spending the time for anything higher.
I hate to say this to you all. But you're wasting your time if you're farming for a 40+. Even if I had over 100 xp, I would still limit my enchants to below 20 just to make it last.
The difference between +20% mining speed and +30% mining speed is likely going to take you 2 or 3 times longer to get. It's just not worth it.
I'm not saying the current system is broken or needs to be changed. It just needs to be tuned. For now, legitimate players need to spend less and make it last. End of story.
Edit: Yes, the same applies to armor and weapons. Think of it this way. If a monsters take 3 hits to kill normally, and an enchant, say a level II enchant, gives you a kill in 2 hits. Are you ever going to get that one hit kill with a higher level?? Face it, the higher level enchanting is really only worthwhile when you manage to get multiple enchants.
I just assume that enchanting will be balanced over time.
For now I just explore and every other night I enchant another piece of equipment and move on. If I don't need it right away I throw it in a chest for later.
I usually enchant items between 7 and 12. That's all.
It's all you need, it's not worth spending the time for anything higher.
I hate to say this to you all. But you're wasting your time if you're farming for a 40+. Even if I had over 100 xp, I would still limit my enchants to below 20 just to make it last.
The difference between +20% mining speed and +30% mining speed is likely going to take you 2 or 3 times longer to get. It's just not worth it.
I'm not saying the current system is broken or needs to be changed. It just needs to be tuned. For now, legitimate players need to spend less and make it last. End of story.
Well, the good stuff in that area is like Silk Touch with an Unbreaking III.
Well, the good stuff in that area is like Silk Touch with an Unbreaking III.
Yeah, that's a fantastic enchant. It sounds great.
But it sucks.
too much time to get it. Not when i could aim lower, spend a third of the time. Get a regular Silk Touch and then only pull it out when I want something Silk Touched.
Silk Touch with Unbreaking III would be great for a pickaxe you use all the time. But with just Silk Touch you get basically the same thing if you carry two picks with you and select when you need it. Same effect, way way WAY less hassle.
This is precisely the objection I've add to the enchanting system from the start. When you have to actively spend resources to get the "random loot", getting stuck with a sub-par item is not good.
I know I am replying to a post on the first page of five, but I just have to ask a question. Have you ever played a Roguelike? If not I would suggest looking them up. The reason I say this is because Notching looooooooooooooves these kind of games and has stated in multiple interviews that he wants Minecraft to be more and more like a roguelike. The original potion crafting was very roguelike, and having magic being completely unknowable as it is now is very much something you would find in a roguelike. I think it adds a bit of risk to the game play and keeps you fighting to gain levels to get that coveted silktouch enchanted diamond pick you always wanted. :smile.gif:
Let us all be happy that Notch hasn't added a random chance of choking on that pork-chop your character crams down his throat, potions randomly going bad in your inventory without telling you or a chance to trip down your steps and breaking your neck. :tongue.gif:
My only problem with the randomness is that it's ALWAYS random. I think that when you first get a certain enchantment, it should be "learned" somehow, so you can get it again later at will (provided you can pay the EXP cost each time you want it).
There was a trade off. Mobs HP went up, and our attack power went down.
He did that before he added enchantments, as he recognized it was much too easy as it was. That would have happened whether enchantments were added or not.
I know I am replying to a post on the first page of five, but I just have to ask a question. Have you ever played a Roguelike? If not I would suggest looking them up. The reason I say this is because Notching looooooooooooooves these kind of games and has stated in multiple interviews that he wants Minecraft to be more and more like a roguelike. The original potion crafting was very roguelike, and having magic being completely unknowable as it is now is very much something you would find in a roguelike. I think it adds a bit of risk to the game play and keeps you fighting to gain levels to get that coveted silktouch enchanted diamond pick you always wanted. :smile.gif:
Let us all be happy that Notch hasn't added a random chance of choking on that pork-chop your character crams down his throat, potions randomly going bad in your inventory without telling you or a chance to trip down your steps and breaking your neck. :tongue.gif:
I have played rougelikes. They are an interesting mix of brilliant and horrible game design. Its really not the random aspect that bothers me so much as the likelyhood that you can spend a ton of resources and have it seriously flop on you. Even if you can't get precisely what you want, you shouldn't get something with a fraction of the value. A game that forces you to play through it repeatedly to get what you want is NOT good design. That is grinding,one of the worst game design elements ever conceived. Up till now, minecraft has managed to deftly avoid grinding, despite being built in a way that would be prone to it. If you want resources for something, you only need to harvest that many resources. You have a ton of options on how you go about gathering those resources, some of which are admittedly grinding, but those were never the only way, and never the best way. You also only needed to gather as many resources as you needed.
This enchantment system undermines that. you gather resources by killing mobs. To a certain degree, you will get experience naturally through the normal progression through the game. That is fine, and that baseline level of experience is what you should be able to freely work with. Moving beyond that level means you are now grinding for experience. If you have to be kept playing by having you keep fighting to gain levels to get the silktouch enchantment, the game design has failed. Yes, it is keeping you interacting with the game for longer, but it is keeping you from actually playing it. If I am playing minecraft, I am playing it to build and explore. I explore caves, thereby fighting mobs, and locating ores, there by feeding my need for resources. I use those resources to build, add in farms to increase my resources, and prepare for a journey to explore the nether. I delve into the nether, explore and conquer it, and haul back its resources. =At every step, I am actively advancing through the game, moving on to new experiences.
As soon as I try to make an enchantment and have it flop, that portion of my efforts are undone. I don't have the item I need. Those experience points are wasted. To recover, I have to go and grind on mobs. Instead of progressing through the game, I am now backstepping and redoing the work I have already done. I might be interacting with the game, but I am facing a roadblock to continue playing the game. I don't want to keep fighting to gain silktouch. I want the silktouch when I earned it, not to get stuck in a loop of grinding experience, trying to enchant, and failing to get what I need. Thats not playing the game. That is grinding, and its evil. That is just wasting my time. I, like many people, only have a limited amount of time I can spend on games. There are many games I want to spend my time on, so making me grind your game is bad. Its not fun. Its boring and repetitive, and it gets in the way of actually playing the game. If the game takes 100 hours to complete, it should have 100 hours of content, not 10 hours of content and 90 hours of grinding. Invalidating your efforts just extends the game time without extending gameplay.
Especially when the game is minecraft, and there are already hundreds of hours of gameplay in it, you don't need to artificially extend it.
Has it ever occured to any of you that you're using an RPG like XP system. Without classic RPG elements like NPCs, Quest and Boss fights?
Anybody here who has played an RPG knows that monster grinding is a horrible way to get loot and XP, boss fights and quests are usually better.
You're playing with only a portion of the system.
Yeah, level 40 enchant are hard to get right now. But will it always be like that?
I say quit the complaining and work with what we have. Chances are that higher levels will be easier to get later on. Notch IS going to be fixing villages and adding boss fights.
Bottom line... you have 1/3rd of the XP income in place and you're bitching about how slow XP is. Think about that....
Until Notch adds those things to the game, I thing that the logarithmic scale of experience is too steep. Level one is easy, level five is somewhat medium, level ten as it is now is high and getting to fifteen is just tedious. Right now it feels like we were never supposed to get silk touch or fortune.
The randomness can really slap you in the face. On a level two enchant I got sharpness I and knockback I. When my brother did a level 5 he got sharpness I. This + high level = punch in the face.
scaling experience doesn't make sense when your enemies don't scale...
games that have it ALSO have enemies that give more experience as you progress along, maybe if he just made it equal value between levels it(the whole enchantment system) wouldn't be so bad.
I agree 100% with Mystify on this, it in no way encourages legitimate gameplay as it is, whether this is how it works in the future is in doubt, but no mention has been made of it since 1.9pr4, and notch is oh so bad at keeping secrets x]
Roguelikes very rarely require you to actively gamble, or if they do it's something like, well I could drink this potion I found randomly sitting on the ground and it might suck or it might rock, let's find out, but I can't think of any that make you spend gold to get something that is essentially between level 1 and 40.
Again, just a simple example I came up with while writing the post, but it would do the job more or less.
That would be much better.
If we compare this to the binding of isaac, I think we can draw some interesting comclusions. For those of you who haven't played it, its essentially a rougelike arena shooter. you have random leels, and part of that is random loot. The random loot is both its flaw and its strength. One one hand, its fun to get random bonuses, and play through with a different set of abilities. On the other hand, its really annoying when it gives you 5 range upgrades(they really aren't that useful. 1 or 2 are good, but past that they are pointless), when you really need some more health.
What you need is for the magnitude of your bonuses to stay in the proper range to maintain balance, while maintaining the unpredictability of what it does to keep it interesting.
Your suggestion would seem to address it nicely.
Hopefully Jens/Notch ends up balancing this out in the end. ^^
For now I just explore and every other night I enchant another piece of equipment and move on. If I don't need it right away I throw it in a chest for later.
I usually enchant items between 7 and 12. That's all.
It's all you need, it's not worth spending the time for anything higher.
I hate to say this to you all. But you're wasting your time if you're farming for a 40+. Even if I had over 100 xp, I would still limit my enchants to below 20 just to make it last.
The difference between +20% mining speed and +30% mining speed is likely going to take you 2 or 3 times longer to get. It's just not worth it.
I'm not saying the current system is broken or needs to be changed. It just needs to be tuned. For now, legitimate players need to spend less and make it last. End of story.
Edit: Yes, the same applies to armor and weapons. Think of it this way. If a monsters take 3 hits to kill normally, and an enchant, say a level II enchant, gives you a kill in 2 hits. Are you ever going to get that one hit kill with a higher level?? Face it, the higher level enchanting is really only worthwhile when you manage to get multiple enchants.
Well, the good stuff in that area is like Silk Touch with an Unbreaking III.
Yeah, that's a fantastic enchant. It sounds great.
But it sucks.
too much time to get it. Not when i could aim lower, spend a third of the time. Get a regular Silk Touch and then only pull it out when I want something Silk Touched.
Silk Touch with Unbreaking III would be great for a pickaxe you use all the time. But with just Silk Touch you get basically the same thing if you carry two picks with you and select when you need it. Same effect, way way WAY less hassle.
I've only gotten it from 30+, but I haven't done much testing below it, so I really have no idea. I should really test the 10-25 area.
I know I am replying to a post on the first page of five, but I just have to ask a question. Have you ever played a Roguelike? If not I would suggest looking them up. The reason I say this is because Notching looooooooooooooves these kind of games and has stated in multiple interviews that he wants Minecraft to be more and more like a roguelike. The original potion crafting was very roguelike, and having magic being completely unknowable as it is now is very much something you would find in a roguelike. I think it adds a bit of risk to the game play and keeps you fighting to gain levels to get that coveted silktouch enchanted diamond pick you always wanted. :smile.gif:
Let us all be happy that Notch hasn't added a random chance of choking on that pork-chop your character crams down his throat, potions randomly going bad in your inventory without telling you or a chance to trip down your steps and breaking your neck. :tongue.gif:
All enchantments below level 10 will have 1 mod, between level I and II
All enchantments between level 10 ~ 30 will have 1-2 mods, between level I and III
All enchantments between level 30 ~ 40 will have 2-3 mods, between level I and IV
All enchantments above level 40 will have 3 mods, between level I and level IV
This way there is randomness, but you won't be wasting your time throwing away 40 levels for a Efficiency III.
(The list above is wrong)
So, does anyone know if enchantments made to be higher levels increases proportionally with hacked levels?
Still no infinite strongholds D:
It's called NBTedit.
The one thing I've been waiting for this whole 1.9 debacle.
But instead we get these short term enchantments with no real long term gain.
Minecraft is a very long term sort of game too..
He did that before he added enchantments, as he recognized it was much too easy as it was. That would have happened whether enchantments were added or not.
You realize that the skills would've been completely erased when you died, right? You consider that to be long term compared to these item enchants?
I have played rougelikes. They are an interesting mix of brilliant and horrible game design. Its really not the random aspect that bothers me so much as the likelyhood that you can spend a ton of resources and have it seriously flop on you. Even if you can't get precisely what you want, you shouldn't get something with a fraction of the value. A game that forces you to play through it repeatedly to get what you want is NOT good design. That is grinding,one of the worst game design elements ever conceived. Up till now, minecraft has managed to deftly avoid grinding, despite being built in a way that would be prone to it. If you want resources for something, you only need to harvest that many resources. You have a ton of options on how you go about gathering those resources, some of which are admittedly grinding, but those were never the only way, and never the best way. You also only needed to gather as many resources as you needed.
This enchantment system undermines that. you gather resources by killing mobs. To a certain degree, you will get experience naturally through the normal progression through the game. That is fine, and that baseline level of experience is what you should be able to freely work with. Moving beyond that level means you are now grinding for experience. If you have to be kept playing by having you keep fighting to gain levels to get the silktouch enchantment, the game design has failed. Yes, it is keeping you interacting with the game for longer, but it is keeping you from actually playing it. If I am playing minecraft, I am playing it to build and explore. I explore caves, thereby fighting mobs, and locating ores, there by feeding my need for resources. I use those resources to build, add in farms to increase my resources, and prepare for a journey to explore the nether. I delve into the nether, explore and conquer it, and haul back its resources. =At every step, I am actively advancing through the game, moving on to new experiences.
As soon as I try to make an enchantment and have it flop, that portion of my efforts are undone. I don't have the item I need. Those experience points are wasted. To recover, I have to go and grind on mobs. Instead of progressing through the game, I am now backstepping and redoing the work I have already done. I might be interacting with the game, but I am facing a roadblock to continue playing the game. I don't want to keep fighting to gain silktouch. I want the silktouch when I earned it, not to get stuck in a loop of grinding experience, trying to enchant, and failing to get what I need. Thats not playing the game. That is grinding, and its evil. That is just wasting my time. I, like many people, only have a limited amount of time I can spend on games. There are many games I want to spend my time on, so making me grind your game is bad. Its not fun. Its boring and repetitive, and it gets in the way of actually playing the game. If the game takes 100 hours to complete, it should have 100 hours of content, not 10 hours of content and 90 hours of grinding. Invalidating your efforts just extends the game time without extending gameplay.
Especially when the game is minecraft, and there are already hundreds of hours of gameplay in it, you don't need to artificially extend it.
Anybody here who has played an RPG knows that monster grinding is a horrible way to get loot and XP, boss fights and quests are usually better.
You're playing with only a portion of the system.
Yeah, level 40 enchant are hard to get right now. But will it always be like that?
I say quit the complaining and work with what we have. Chances are that higher levels will be easier to get later on. Notch IS going to be fixing villages and adding boss fights.
Bottom line... you have 1/3rd of the XP income in place and you're bitching about how slow XP is. Think about that....
scaling experience doesn't make sense when your enemies don't scale...
games that have it ALSO have enemies that give more experience as you progress along, maybe if he just made it equal value between levels it(the whole enchantment system) wouldn't be so bad.
I agree 100% with Mystify on this, it in no way encourages legitimate gameplay as it is, whether this is how it works in the future is in doubt, but no mention has been made of it since 1.9pr4, and notch is oh so bad at keeping secrets x]
Roguelikes very rarely require you to actively gamble, or if they do it's something like, well I could drink this potion I found randomly sitting on the ground and it might suck or it might rock, let's find out, but I can't think of any that make you spend gold to get something that is essentially between level 1 and 40.