Once again in summation, there are more ways than one to stockpile exp. Get over it. No one should be forced to not build something just because you prefer to hunt and gather every day. I personally get bored of that, I like to be able to keep building my base bigger and bigger and not have to worry about going above ground, and not have to worry about getting "pwned". Also, with iconomy, it's up in the air for ANYONE to make massive autofarms and treefarms, mobtraps, etc. The person who has the biggest stockpiles of items can sell them dirt cheap. It doesn't ruin the economy, it creates a very serious competitive edge. Either you go all out trying to beat the other guys price or you don't. Not his fault if you think competitive = doing the same exact thing that you want.
No, you obviously don't realize what I am saying. Other "ways" of stockpiling xp is fine, but "if" those methods are unfair, then they brake the game. You didn't read my post obviously or you must have ignored the part where I said I have no problem with mobtraps. I just don't think they should have the capacity to be the best method, especially since they are just grinding repetitively. Should repetitive grinding in one spot be encouraged to be the best alternative? No, I for one don't think minecraft should be turned into that kind of game where if you want to be better than everyone else you just sit in one spot for 5 hours killing mobs.
Grinding shouldn't be encouraged to this great of a degree. If people want to grind for an advantage then fine, but we shouldn't make grinding the only plausible method. As it stands, grinding underground with your huge mob trap can be so much more effective that no other way might as well exist when comparing the results that the mob trap can achieve.
Because creating a super mob spawner with traps collected through a glitch in the enchant system, after which you alter them to your liking with a mod is completely legit, right?
I'm not sure if you're trying to troll (and failing at it), or just can't see that your "time and effort" is sort of cheating, lol.
There is nothing wrong with this, cheating means your using an external program or using a specific bug within the game that may allow you to do something outside the regular game mechanics.
(1) Building is within the regular game mechanics. :dry.gif: (2) Mobs spawning in dark places is within the regular game mechanics. :dry.gif:
So if the 2 steps to creating a mob trap/harvester are within the regular game mechanics it must be cheating! :unsure.gif:
News flash my friend, if you think this is cheating you better stop playing cause you building anything is cheating, and all your doing is cheating yourself! :blink.gif:
It's a common practice to make it so monsters that keep spawning ore resurrecting give no exp.
What you do is destroy the source, like the monster that resurrect others, or the object that spawns the monsters.
So monsters spawned from a monster spawner should have a "NO_EXP" tag set, and there should be a way to break the monster spawner, and the experience would come from that.
That fixes the issue.
Then mob spawners are pointless. just remove them from the game. we are talking about player built mob harvesters here, not the little 1 block spawners you find in dungeons.
This topic breaks down to 2 types of thinking. One believes that their will should be forced on everyone (BAN MOB TRAPS! Its EXPLOITING!)
...and those that believe in free will and choice (Don't like it? DON'T USE IT!)
Its really not complicated. Live and let live. If you want to use mob grinders, fine. You have to dig it out and make it work. If you don't want to be around people that use them, fine, play single player, or join a server where they are banned from being built. Both sides happy, and no one makes any sacrifices.
Its amazing how out of touch people are sometimes. Play the game the way YOU want to play. But don't think for a minute that you have ANY right to tell me how I have to play MY game.
This topic breaks down to 2 types of thinking. One believes that their will should be forced on everyone (BAN MOB TRAPS! Its EXPLOITING!)
...and those that believe in free will and choice (Don't like it? DON'T USE IT!)
Its really not complicated. Live and let live. If you want to use mob grinders, fine. You have to dig it out and make it work. If you don't want to be around people that use them, fine, play single player, or join a server where they are banned from being built. Both sides happy, and no one makes any sacrifices.
Its amazing how out of touch people are sometimes. Play the game the way YOU want to play. But don't think for a minute that you have ANY right to tell me how I have to play MY game.
Well put friend, you get a star! or that cause it makes more sense!
This topic breaks down to 2 types of thinking. One believes that their will should be forced on everyone (BAN MOB TRAPS! Its EXPLOITING!)
...and those that believe in free will and choice (Don't like it? DON'T USE IT!)
Unfortunately, from reading this thread I'm not sure it's as simple as that. The ban Mob traps crowd feels like their existence forces them to do the same in order to keep up. This is often on competitive (PvP) servers where the whole goal is to keep up.
However, it's important to keep in mind that competitive pvp servers are a limited subset of the entire gamut of minecraft. Also, I fear that much of these concerns exist only "in theory", completely ignoring the start up costs and/or effectiveness of mob traps. It's only been in about the last week (on SSP) that I've been playing around with setting up automated experience farms.
My first was to build around a dungeon spawner I found and kill the mobs that come out. I'll be honest, this is an infinite source in time, but it's FAR quicker to gain levels my killing mobs on the surface than the occasional zombie that spawns out of the trap.
Next, I built a piston tower trap that funneled mobs to a drop point where I could kill them at my leisure. I tell you, this was a lot of fun to make. But I did this on creative (NBTedit to the rescue) and it still took 5+ hours to build, another couple of hours to light up all the caves nearby, and I'm still not sure it's a faster way of killing mobs. I've recently updated it to prevent spiders from spawning, and removed the pistons with drop channels since sometimes my pistons won't release. Often times I'll have 20 or so mobs in the trap, but it takes forever to get them to drop and may only have four or five at the kill point and then wait a few minutes to restock.
Note, this was on creative, this would take much longer done fairly (as it would on a PvP server) to gather all the resources. I'm not saying this is the most efficient build, but there are many hours invested in developing a good efficient mob tower that actually produces mobs faster than you can find out in the wilds at night. I say that because I've already invested 10+ hours and I'm not there yet.
My most efficient design so far has been blocking up a blaze spawner with all but two 1x3x9 channels in the spawn area. The blazes have a better return per kill, and can spawn up to three at a time, so it's fast xp gain per spawner, but not by much. By the time I've gotten the gear to take on the Nether, find a nether stronghold, and renovate the spawner, I could kill 6 mobs in the surface world in the time it'd take to spawn 3 blazes in my farm. Still, it's something to do while brewing potions.
My entire point is that if you had two folks start at the same time on a pvp SMP server and one focused on building a mob tower, the other just killed mobs in the wilds, the mob tower guy would clearly be behind the game at the very beginning and only after X hours would start to pull ahead of the other guy. The question is what is X. With my (arguably limited) experience with automated xp generation methods, X >> 10 hrs (probably more like 20+) to begin to break even on xp generation.
And on a competitive PvP server, that gives you 20+ hours to go kill him for his xp. :cool.gif:
Unfortunately, from reading this thread I'm not sure it's as simple as that. The ban Mob traps crowd feels like their existence forces them to do the same in order to keep up. This is often on competitive (PvP) servers where the whole goal is to keep up.
Great points, but what I said stands. If people don't want it, they can move to a PvP server where they have rules against building mob traps. There's plenty of them out there.
Great points, but what I said stands. If people don't want it, they can move to a PvP server where they have rules against building mob traps. There's plenty of them out there.
And while server admins are allowed to place rules upon their servers, I being a server admin for many servers don't see the point in telling a population of a server that they can only build certain things.... "Hey you! Don't you build a room and not put a torch in it! If you do I'm going to ban you for life because a mob could spawn in there and that's cheating!" Because essentially that is what you are saying when you have a rule against building a mob harvester... Honestly why stop there? Just say you can't build in a building game, because human ingenuity was never supposed to be a part of the process of minecraft all you should do is mine and craft items, cause the game is called Minecraft after all...
Someone put me out of my misery! If I want to be controlled and told I can't do something I'll just go talk to the Government, putting limits on a game that is supposed to be limitless is wrong (unless your hacking the game then your wrong!). Limiting what players can build in a building game is like telling artists you can only paint/draw/create within "a specific set of lines" thus negating art because there will never be something that pushes the envelope and allows people to think and look at things from outside the box, allowing the possibility to realize that regardless of what they've been taught, what they've been told, that there can always be another perspective another way to do things because every person is different and every person is going to have a different view on things.
So in closing I just want to say "Minecraft is what you make it, try to look beyond the lines you or someone else has set for you and realize that your creativity is endless."
No, you obviously don't realize what I am saying. Other "ways" of stockpiling xp is fine, but "if" those methods are unfair, then they brake the game. You didn't read my post obviously or you must have ignored the part where I said I have no problem with mobtraps. I just don't think they should have the capacity to be the best method, especially since they are just grinding repetitively. Should repetitive grinding in one spot be encouraged to be the best alternative? No, I for one don't think minecraft should be turned into that kind of game where if you want to be better than everyone else you just sit in one spot for 5 hours killing mobs.
Grinding shouldn't be encouraged to this great of a degree. If people want to grind for an advantage then fine, but we shouldn't make grinding the only plausible method. As it stands, grinding underground with your huge mob trap can be so much more effective that no other way might as well exist when comparing the results that the mob trap can achieve.
Notch called in the storm. So long as killing mobs remains the only method of gaining XP, grinding, and in turn, mob grinders will be the only viable method of leveling up.
Great points, but what I said stands. If people don't want it, they can move to a PvP server where they have rules against building mob traps. There's plenty of them out there.
My bad, I didn't mean to sound like I disagree with you. I completely agree that for a diverse population like MC players, it's best to leave options open for the game and let server admins decide how they want to maintain their servers.
I just wanted to point out that it's not simply a matter of the complainers saying "You must play my way!" It's that they feel they have to play differently just to keep up. I think I agree with you... let the servers handle it.
And while server admins are allowed to place rules upon their servers, I being a server admin for many servers don't see the point in telling a population of a server that they can only build certain things....
Did you miss my previous comment? I'm making the case for mob spawners. I simply said "live and let live." As server admin, you have the full right and authority to create an oppressive server that controls what people can build...
...or in your case, allow a free world where innovation and creativity are encouraged.
Offtopic, I'm right there with you on IRL implications ShinQuickMan.
Pleading for Notch to come down and CRACKDOWN on those evil servers and people that choose to build mob spawners on servers that allow them is ridiculous. Join a server where they are or aren't allowed based on what you want people.
Did you miss my previous comment? I'm making the case for mob spawners. I simply said "live and let live." As server admin, you have the full right and authority to create an oppressive server that controls what people can build...
...or in your case, allow a free world where innovation and creativity are encouraged.
Offtopic, I'm right there with you on IRL implications ShinQuickMan.
Pleading for Notch to come down and CRACKDOWN on those evil servers and people that choose to build mob spawners on servers that allow them is ridiculous. Join a server where they are or aren't allowed based on what you want people.
I didn't miss your comment, I was using your quote to simply add to your point about server admins. I wasn't trying to direct that post at you fine sir.
No, you obviously don't realize what I am saying. Other "ways" of stockpiling xp is fine, but "if" those methods are unfair, then they brake the game. You didn't read my post obviously or you must have ignored the part where I said I have no problem with mobtraps. I just don't think they should have the capacity to be the best method, especially since they are just grinding repetitively. Should repetitive grinding in one spot be encouraged to be the best alternative? No, I for one don't think minecraft should be turned into that kind of game where if you want to be better than everyone else you just sit in one spot for 5 hours killing mobs.
Grinding shouldn't be encouraged to this great of a degree. If people want to grind for an advantage then fine, but we shouldn't make grinding the only plausible method. As it stands, grinding underground with your huge mob trap can be so much more effective that no other way might as well exist when comparing the results that the mob trap can achieve.
It isn't "encouraged", it just isn't discouraged. Your whole arguement lacks any valid point seeing as how your main concern with competitive play. In competitive play you are going to HAVE to find a way to get yourself an advantage because the next guy in line is GOING to. Same thing on FPS games, someone is going to camp because it is indeed possible and in all definitions of the game itself not an exploit. People just rage anytime they feel they got "cheated" when in actuality they made the choice to cheat themselves out of opportunity. Learn the map, find the camp spots, and play it over and over until you learn how to creep behind them or lob grenades perfectly into spot. Do what it takes to win, as long as it isn't by using an external modification. That is the only limit here.
So you have a serious choice to make here. Either spend time looking for a server that fits your terms (or post in the starting up section saying what you are looking for), or deal with reality. Going back and forth here on this when you and I both know that you are the only one refusing to make a choice. So if it is so impossible to find a server that restricts people from building things that you deem unfair, get some money and rent a server. You'll likely have the attention of grief/hack teams for being oppressive to the point that you disagree with in game possibilities and expect people to play the way you want them to, but hey, that's your problem. Anyone who doesn't like your server has the same choices you face with this mobtrap ordeal. Find a server that is set the way you like, or make your own. Simple. This game simply does NOT have enough things to do to keep me interested in spending 3 hours each day doing the same thing for very little reward. Seeing as how I'm not picky I can join most servers and have a good time regardless of how "overpowered" someone is because they decided to be creative. Doesn't affect me because I have the mindset that makes me try harder and harder to beat them at their own game. If they have a uber efficient godly mobtrap and a vault room with 400 chests full of IV enchants then I know I'm about to get serious and show them how it's done.
That's the fun part about it. There is no SET way to play, so even the guy that has only 2 - 3 hours to play each day can be better set-up than the Joe Schmoe that plays 12 hours. Also, not everyone builds mobtraps or even feels they HAVE to. Even in competitive servers you have people who just play smart. I saw a guy who literally used only wood and stone tools to mine everything they can, and iron only to mine the rest, etc. That is smarter than me blowing through most of my tools as soon as I get them because I keep spending it all on enhancing one construction. With armor I barely get good enchantments and falling/failing to move out of creepers view fast enough in the mobtrap happens quite enough that I tend to waste the enchanted armor I do come across. It's not like I sit there for 10 hours straight grinding mobs and then getting lucky everytime I enchant. I enchant the swords I use to kill the mobs in the trap so thats even more valuable tools I'm blowing through while smartypants average joe who plays more carefully has been stocking up the tools and doesn't wear good stuff when he's in the wild + builds far, far away from spawn at bedrock so it's not easy to find his base. Killing him might net me some food (useless to me thanks to my autofarms), and low-grade tools. I'm not going to go looking for his base because I know for sure I'll likely find some other poor sap who wears his best stuff when scouting in the wild and is ripe for the casual sneak attack/kill.
Countless ways to give yourself an advantage. Either you will accept that someone else will always be able to out-do you unless you are willing to adapt and go bigger, or you keep arguing with me about it. If I truly can't find a server I like I have money thanks to working that can afford a nice server, or just use mine although even with 60mbits down and 6 up and a decked out PC It is not worth using my own when I could rent one for 25 bucks a month that is on 100mbits constant. We have choices.
Notch called in the storm. So long as killing mobs remains the only method of gaining XP, grinding, and in turn, mob grinders will be the only viable method of leveling up.
Like I said, a simple method would be to reduce the amount of xp recieved by mobs based on if they were weakened by alternative methods. This would lower the productivity of mob traps designed to deliver mobs with as minimal health points as possible. At least that way people can't have a mob trap that means you just pop up and kill everything in one blow. This would mean it take three times longer to collect from those kind of trap designs, and you would lose three times the durability of your sword or whatever you use. It think that would be a benefit to not only making the minecraft a harder game under certain rare circumstances, but it would also help to correct those certain type of mobtraps I speak of.
It isn't "encouraged", it just isn't discouraged. Your whole arguement lacks any valid point seeing as how your main concern with competitive play. In competitive play you are going to HAVE to find a way to get yourself an advantage because the next guy in line is GOING to. Same thing on FPS games, someone is going to camp because it is indeed possible and in all definitions of the game itself not an exploit. People just rage anytime they feel they got "cheated" when in actuality they made the choice to cheat themselves out of opportunity. Learn the map, find the camp spots, and play it over and over until you learn how to creep behind them or lob grenades perfectly into spot. Do what it takes to win, as long as it isn't by using an external modification. That is the only limit here.
It is encouraged, there is a difference. Okay, take strip mining for example. Strip mining is almost exactly like mobtraps in the sense that they are both boring, but more efficient than cave spelunking. Now some people still go cave spelunking even though it isn't the best choice if you want to make diamonds as quick as possible through mining. Now why some bother with Cave Spelunking is because it is inferior, but not quite that bad when compared to strip mining. Most like myself consider it a worthy trade of less diamond for less tedious gameplay.
Now the case we have here with mob traps are if they were designed right, they could be 10 times better than the normal method. So what if cave spelunking now gave you 10 times less of the diamonds? I suddenly think any time someone wants diamond, they would not even consider cave spelunking a viable option. That being because the other option is ten times better. Don't say there is a choice if one is incredibly superior. And don't say mob traps aren't superior, because that just means yours isn't up to par compared to some I've seen on servers. From the looks of one design they were producing more than a mob a second, all of which were one or two hit KOs. Not to mention this works efficiently regardless of day or night if they were willing to actually light the surface above their base, but they didn't. Now 60 mobs + per minute, and the fact that it can run twice as people who have to wait for night. And my sword lasts almost three times as long, and if you use diamond like me that is quite a life saver to get three times the uses out of a diamond sword.
Now, knowing you, I'm willing to bet you would say this monstrosity took long to create so it's worth the efficiency, but it only took about 4 hours to get to level 50. I'm sorry, but when I played on my single player save file, I played for a couple weeks straight and still hadn't gotten to level 50. You argue this is fair, not even counting in the fact that playing the other way means you have a huge chance of death at some point? I don't know how much time it took for the person to make the mob trap(they might have even had help for all I know), but four hours compared to weeks of work just won't do. If I use this mob trap to get to level 50 just twice(presuming it took 100 hours to make the mobtrap) then I will have already saved time in the long run. And too be honest I would really need to use it 6 times or more for the thing I have in mind.
So you have a serious choice to make here. Either spend time looking for a server that fits your terms (or post in the starting up section saying what you are looking for), or deal with reality. Going back and forth here on this when you and I both know that you are the only one refusing to make a choice. So if it is so impossible to find a server that restricts people from building things that you deem unfair, get some money and rent a server. You'll likely have the attention of grief/hack teams for being oppressive to the point that you disagree with in game possibilities and expect people to play the way you want them to, but hey, that's your problem. Anyone who doesn't like your server has the same choices you face with this mobtrap ordeal. Find a server that is set the way you like, or make your own. Simple. This game simply does NOT have enough things to do to keep me interested in spending 3 hours each day doing the same thing for very little reward. Seeing as how I'm not picky I can join most servers and have a good time regardless of how "overpowered" someone is because they decided to be creative. Doesn't affect me because I have the mindset that makes me try harder and harder to beat them at their own game. If they have a uber efficient godly mobtrap and a vault room with 400 chests full of IV enchants then I know I'm about to get serious and show them how it's done.
Look, I'm always going to play with the core game mechanics regardless of if I protest something to be unfair. And finding a server that has all my favourite server mods, lacks server mods I hate, and banning mob traps is practically non-existent. I do use the alternative as you said, I do run a server. It's private though and I only use it play with some local friends. I don't ban mob traps though. I don't want mob traps banned contrary to what you think. I just believe there are certain aspects about them that should be nerfed to make the game more fair and balanced.
That's the fun part about it. There is no SET way to play, so even the guy that has only 2 - 3 hours to play each day can be better set-up than the Joe Schmoe that plays 12 hours. Also, not everyone builds mobtraps or even feels they HAVE to. Even in competitive servers you have people who just play smart. I saw a guy who literally used only wood and stone tools to mine everything they can, and iron only to mine the rest, etc. That is smarter than me blowing through most of my tools as soon as I get them because I keep spending it all on enhancing one construction. With armor I barely get good enchantments and falling/failing to move out of creepers view fast enough in the mobtrap happens quite enough that I tend to waste the enchanted armor I do come across. It's not like I sit there for 10 hours straight grinding mobs and then getting lucky everytime I enchant. I enchant the swords I use to kill the mobs in the trap so thats even more valuable tools I'm blowing through while smartypants average joe who plays more carefully has been stocking up the tools and doesn't wear good stuff when he's in the wild + builds far, far away from spawn at bedrock so it's not easy to find his base. Killing him might net me some food (useless to me thanks to my autofarms), and low-grade tools. I'm not going to go looking for his base because I know for sure I'll likely find some other poor sap who wears his best stuff when scouting in the wild and is ripe for the casual sneak attack/kill.
If you are looking to obtain level 50 enchantments, the only real choice at this point is making the mobtrap. Yes, you can do it the normal way, but as I said, who is going to spend that long. No one, and that is because the incredibly easy alternative exists. Now if Notch wanted us worming our way out of taking a long amount of time to get to level 50, then why didn't he just make it easier in the first place? Ingenuity should be rewarded, but how is this ingenuity if this is the only option if you want enchantments in a much shorter time. You speak of the smart being rewarded, but first off, mob traps don’t take a genius to build properly. Secondly, they reward far too much if done properly. How does that feel like ingenuity and why should that be so greatly rewarded like you said?
Countless ways to give yourself an advantage. Either you will accept that someone else will always be able to out-do you unless you are willing to adapt and go bigger, or you keep arguing with me about it. If I truly can't find a server I like I have money thanks to working that can afford a nice server, or just use mine although even with 60mbits down and 6 up and a decked out PC It is not worth using my own when I could rent one for 25 bucks a month that is on 100mbits constant. We have choices.
We do have choices, I’m not complaining about this because I can’t find an alternative around it. I’m saying mob traps have the potential to be over-powered because of various reasons I have listed before. It’s constructive criticism and I am hoping that maybe my feedback will help the game change in a way that helps it retain some of it’s challenge and difficulty.
It’s just like mushrooms and bone meal. I believe that to be unfair so I protest that there should be change. It makes far too easy of an alternative for food. And again, I’m not saying the feature should be gone. I’m just saying I wish you would get less mushrooms from a giant mushroom so you don’t have an entire stack of mushrooms from just a few bones. I’m not asking for giant mushrooms to be removed, and I think you are confusing that part. I’m just saying my personal opinion is they are in need of change to make the game more balanced and keep the hunger system from being easier to break than it needs to be. Just like with mobtraps(especially the ones that drop the mob to weaken them before hand).
It is encouraged, there is a difference. Okay, take strip mining for example. Strip mining is almost exactly like mobtraps in the sense that they are both boring, but more efficient than cave spelunking. Now some people still go cave spelunking even though it isn't the best choice if you want to make diamonds as quick as possible through mining. Now why some bother with Cave Spelunking is because it is inferior, but not quite that bad when compared to strip mining. Most like myself consider it a worthy trade of less diamond for less tedious gameplay.
Now the case we have here with mob traps are if they were designed right, they could be 10 times better than the normal method. So what if cave spelunking now gave you 10 times less of the diamonds? I suddenly think any time someone wants diamond, they would not even consider cave spelunking a viable option. That being because the other option is ten times better. Don't say there is a choice if one is incredibly superior. And don't say mob traps aren't superior, because that just means yours isn't up to par compared to some I've seen on servers. From the looks of one design they were producing more than a mob a second, all of which were one or two hit KOs. Not to mention this works efficiently regardless of day or night if they were willing to actually light the surface above their base, but they didn't. Now 60 mobs + per minute, and the fact that it can run twice as people who have to wait for night. And my sword lasts almost three times as long, and if you use diamond like me that is quite a life saver to get three times the uses out of a diamond sword.
Now, knowing you, I'm willing to bet you would say this monstrosity took long to create so it's worth the efficiency, but it only took about 4 hours to get to level 50. I'm sorry, but when I played on my single player save file, I played for a couple weeks straight and still hadn't gotten to level 50. You argue this is fair, not even counting in the fact that playing the other way means you have a huge chance of death at some point? I don't know how much time it took for the person to make the mob trap(they might have even had help for all I know), but four hours compared to weeks of work just won't do. If I use this mob trap to get to level 50 just twice(presuming it took 100 hours to make the mobtrap) then I will have already saved time in the long run. And too be honest I would really need to use it 6 times or more for the thing I have in mind.
Look, I'm always going to play with the core game mechanics regardless of if I protest something to be unfair. And finding a server that has all my favourite server mods, lacks server mods I hate, and banning mob traps is practically non-existent. I do use the alternative as you said, I do run a server. It's private though and I only use it play with some local friends. I don't ban mob traps though. I don't want mob traps banned contrary to what you think. I just believe there are certain aspects about them that should be nerfed to make the game more fair and balanced.
If you are looking to obtain level 50 enchantments, the only real choice at this point is making the mobtrap. Yes, you can do it the normal way, but as I said, who is going to spend that long. No one, and that is because the incredibly easy alternative exists. Now if Notch wanted us worming our way out of taking a long amount of time to get to level 50, then why didn't he just make it easier in the first place? Ingenuity should be rewarded, but how is this ingenuity if this is the only option if you want enchantments in a much shorter time. You speak of the smart being rewarded, but first off, mob traps don’t take a genius to build properly. Secondly, they reward far too much if done properly. How does that feel like ingenuity and why should that be so greatly rewarded like you said?
We do have choices, I’m not complaining about this because I can’t find an alternative around it. I’m saying mob traps have the potential to be over-powered because of various reasons I have listed before. It’s constructive criticism and I am hoping that maybe my feedback will help the game change in a way that helps it retain some of it’s challenge and difficulty.
It’s just like mushrooms and bone meal. I believe that to be unfair so I protest that there should be change. It makes far too easy of an alternative for food. And again, I’m not saying the feature should be gone. I’m just saying I wish you would get less mushrooms from a giant mushroom so you don’t have an entire stack of mushrooms from just a few bones. I’m not asking for giant mushrooms to be removed, and I think you are confusing that part. I’m just saying my personal opinion is they are in need of change to make the game more balanced and keep the hunger system from being easier to break than it needs to be. Just like with mobtraps(especially the ones that drop the mob to weaken them before hand).
I can level with you on the fact that mobtraps CAN be overpowered. However I don't make my mobtrap damage the mobs to where I only have to 1 hit them. So I can see your point on that and I myself would actually endorse your idea. I personally go through swords like crazy even with using potions of strength. At the same time, I've never seen a mobtrap I thought was overpowered on smp. You gotta realize mobspawns on smp vs. singleplayer are way different. The biggest thing being that you can NOT have an efficient mobtrap if a few other people are online as well. Not to mention that on pvp you most likely will not be able to even get your mobtrap producing well when no one else is online. Do you want to light the surface up so that raiders pretty much know they found your base? A 144x144 radius of land lighted by torches is a huge sign saying "Hey, I have a mobtrap down here so come take all the items I've stocked up".
If mobtraps can get to the level of productivity that they can on singleplayer, I'll be with you asking for some nerfage. They can't though. On smp a mobtrap vs. hunting mobs is not as big a gap as it is on singleplayer. They nerfed mobspawns a bit. That's a good thing. They gave mobs better pathfinding (takes longer for them to walk off into the water). You don't get 10000+ item mobspawners on smp unless you have a lot of people standing close to each other so the mobs will spawn in your trap.
All right. I've been reading this thread for the hell of it, but you brought it too far. Since when is building something without any cheats not intended as a feature? The whole damn point of this game is to build (Before I attract haters, I know that exploring and everything else is just as important). You are a fool. Enchantments are the most unbalanced and useless part of this game. Diamond sword nerf=unfair. Silk touch=unbalanced. Enchantments are way to powerful and I hate them with a passion. If you spent the time to make a mob farm, good for you. If you killed an Enderdragon (not that hard) and then used a thousand enchantments to make a farm in an hour or just kill with impunity, screw you.
You fail at basic reading comprehension.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Just waiting for Forge to officially release for 1.13.x to remove unneeded mobs from 1.13, like Phantoms, from the game because, in my gameplay based opinion, they add nothing of value to the game.
Fun fact: Clicking a bed every 30 minutes doesn't make you a better player, it makes you one who clicks a bed every 30 minutes. Wouldn't you rather just mod them out of the game completely?
I can level with you on the fact that mobtraps CAN be overpowered. However I don't make my mobtrap damage the mobs to where I only have to 1 hit them. So I can see your point on that and I myself would actually endorse your idea. I personally go through swords like crazy even with using potions of strength. At the same time, I've never seen a mobtrap I thought was overpowered on smp. You gotta realize mobspawns on smp vs. singleplayer are way different. The biggest thing being that you can NOT have an efficient mobtrap if a few other people are online as well. Not to mention that on pvp you most likely will not be able to even get your mobtrap producing well when no one else is online. Do you want to light the surface up so that raiders pretty much know they found your base? A 144x144 radius of land lighted by torches is a huge sign saying "Hey, I have a mobtrap down here so come take all the items I've stocked up".
If mobtraps can get to the level of productivity that they can on singleplayer, I'll be with you asking for some nerfage. They can't though. On smp a mobtrap vs. hunting mobs is not as big a gap as it is on singleplayer. They nerfed mobspawns a bit. That's a good thing. They gave mobs better pathfinding (takes longer for them to walk off into the water). You don't get 10000+ item mobspawners on smp unless you have a lot of people standing close to each other so the mobs will spawn in your trap.
I suppose I can agree with this, with the exception perhaps with the mobtraps that are lucky enough to contain several mob spawners. I found three mob spawners together in one area just recently, all close enough all be used within a mobtrap together with enough work(I was using the camera bug to peer through walls though). Mob spawners could perhaps use a tweek so mobs spawned from them give out slightly less experience than normal(like from 5 xp to 3 or 2 xp), thus it wouldn't destroy their uses completely, but also not make them as great as an asset in mobtraps that are used to collect vast amounts of experience.
No, you obviously don't realize what I am saying. Other "ways" of stockpiling xp is fine, but "if" those methods are unfair, then they brake the game. You didn't read my post obviously or you must have ignored the part where I said I have no problem with mobtraps. I just don't think they should have the capacity to be the best method, especially since they are just grinding repetitively. Should repetitive grinding in one spot be encouraged to be the best alternative? No, I for one don't think minecraft should be turned into that kind of game where if you want to be better than everyone else you just sit in one spot for 5 hours killing mobs.
Grinding shouldn't be encouraged to this great of a degree. If people want to grind for an advantage then fine, but we shouldn't make grinding the only plausible method. As it stands, grinding underground with your huge mob trap can be so much more effective that no other way might as well exist when comparing the results that the mob trap can achieve.
There is nothing wrong with this, cheating means your using an external program or using a specific bug within the game that may allow you to do something outside the regular game mechanics.
(1) Building is within the regular game mechanics. :dry.gif: (2) Mobs spawning in dark places is within the regular game mechanics. :dry.gif:
So if the 2 steps to creating a mob trap/harvester are within the regular game mechanics it must be cheating! :unsure.gif:
News flash my friend, if you think this is cheating you better stop playing cause you building anything is cheating, and all your doing is cheating yourself! :blink.gif:
Then mob spawners are pointless. just remove them from the game. we are talking about player built mob harvesters here, not the little 1 block spawners you find in dungeons.
...and those that believe in free will and choice (Don't like it? DON'T USE IT!)
Its really not complicated. Live and let live. If you want to use mob grinders, fine. You have to dig it out and make it work. If you don't want to be around people that use them, fine, play single player, or join a server where they are banned from being built. Both sides happy, and no one makes any sacrifices.
Its amazing how out of touch people are sometimes. Play the game the way YOU want to play. But don't think for a minute that you have ANY right to tell me how I have to play MY game.
Well put friend, you get a star! or that cause it makes more sense!
Unfortunately, from reading this thread I'm not sure it's as simple as that. The ban Mob traps crowd feels like their existence forces them to do the same in order to keep up. This is often on competitive (PvP) servers where the whole goal is to keep up.
However, it's important to keep in mind that competitive pvp servers are a limited subset of the entire gamut of minecraft. Also, I fear that much of these concerns exist only "in theory", completely ignoring the start up costs and/or effectiveness of mob traps. It's only been in about the last week (on SSP) that I've been playing around with setting up automated experience farms.
My first was to build around a dungeon spawner I found and kill the mobs that come out. I'll be honest, this is an infinite source in time, but it's FAR quicker to gain levels my killing mobs on the surface than the occasional zombie that spawns out of the trap.
Next, I built a piston tower trap that funneled mobs to a drop point where I could kill them at my leisure. I tell you, this was a lot of fun to make. But I did this on creative (NBTedit to the rescue) and it still took 5+ hours to build, another couple of hours to light up all the caves nearby, and I'm still not sure it's a faster way of killing mobs. I've recently updated it to prevent spiders from spawning, and removed the pistons with drop channels since sometimes my pistons won't release. Often times I'll have 20 or so mobs in the trap, but it takes forever to get them to drop and may only have four or five at the kill point and then wait a few minutes to restock.
Note, this was on creative, this would take much longer done fairly (as it would on a PvP server) to gather all the resources. I'm not saying this is the most efficient build, but there are many hours invested in developing a good efficient mob tower that actually produces mobs faster than you can find out in the wilds at night. I say that because I've already invested 10+ hours and I'm not there yet.
My most efficient design so far has been blocking up a blaze spawner with all but two 1x3x9 channels in the spawn area. The blazes have a better return per kill, and can spawn up to three at a time, so it's fast xp gain per spawner, but not by much. By the time I've gotten the gear to take on the Nether, find a nether stronghold, and renovate the spawner, I could kill 6 mobs in the surface world in the time it'd take to spawn 3 blazes in my farm. Still, it's something to do while brewing potions.
My entire point is that if you had two folks start at the same time on a pvp SMP server and one focused on building a mob tower, the other just killed mobs in the wilds, the mob tower guy would clearly be behind the game at the very beginning and only after X hours would start to pull ahead of the other guy. The question is what is X. With my (arguably limited) experience with automated xp generation methods, X >> 10 hrs (probably more like 20+) to begin to break even on xp generation.
And on a competitive PvP server, that gives you 20+ hours to go kill him for his xp. :cool.gif:
Great points, but what I said stands. If people don't want it, they can move to a PvP server where they have rules against building mob traps. There's plenty of them out there.
And while server admins are allowed to place rules upon their servers, I being a server admin for many servers don't see the point in telling a population of a server that they can only build certain things.... "Hey you! Don't you build a room and not put a torch in it! If you do I'm going to ban you for life because a mob could spawn in there and that's cheating!" Because essentially that is what you are saying when you have a rule against building a mob harvester... Honestly why stop there? Just say you can't build in a building game, because human ingenuity was never supposed to be a part of the process of minecraft all you should do is mine and craft items, cause the game is called Minecraft after all...
Someone put me out of my misery! If I want to be controlled and told I can't do something I'll just go talk to the Government, putting limits on a game that is supposed to be limitless is wrong (unless your hacking the game then your wrong!). Limiting what players can build in a building game is like telling artists you can only paint/draw/create within "a specific set of lines" thus negating art because there will never be something that pushes the envelope and allows people to think and look at things from outside the box, allowing the possibility to realize that regardless of what they've been taught, what they've been told, that there can always be another perspective another way to do things because every person is different and every person is going to have a different view on things.
So in closing I just want to say "Minecraft is what you make it, try to look beyond the lines you or someone else has set for you and realize that your creativity is endless."
Mob Harvesters = win! nuff said.
You picked a terrible example. Yun/Chun/Ken is a third the reason why Third Strike is such a boring poke-fest to watch.
Notch called in the storm. So long as killing mobs remains the only method of gaining XP, grinding, and in turn, mob grinders will be the only viable method of leveling up.
My bad, I didn't mean to sound like I disagree with you. I completely agree that for a diverse population like MC players, it's best to leave options open for the game and let server admins decide how they want to maintain their servers.
I just wanted to point out that it's not simply a matter of the complainers saying "You must play my way!" It's that they feel they have to play differently just to keep up. I think I agree with you... let the servers handle it.
And then I meandered off onto another point.
Did you miss my previous comment? I'm making the case for mob spawners. I simply said "live and let live." As server admin, you have the full right and authority to create an oppressive server that controls what people can build...
...or in your case, allow a free world where innovation and creativity are encouraged.
Offtopic, I'm right there with you on IRL implications ShinQuickMan.
Pleading for Notch to come down and CRACKDOWN on those evil servers and people that choose to build mob spawners on servers that allow them is ridiculous. Join a server where they are or aren't allowed based on what you want people.
I didn't miss your comment, I was using your quote to simply add to your point about server admins. I wasn't trying to direct that post at you fine sir.
It fills me with joy and also self-loathing.
It isn't "encouraged", it just isn't discouraged. Your whole arguement lacks any valid point seeing as how your main concern with competitive play. In competitive play you are going to HAVE to find a way to get yourself an advantage because the next guy in line is GOING to. Same thing on FPS games, someone is going to camp because it is indeed possible and in all definitions of the game itself not an exploit. People just rage anytime they feel they got "cheated" when in actuality they made the choice to cheat themselves out of opportunity. Learn the map, find the camp spots, and play it over and over until you learn how to creep behind them or lob grenades perfectly into spot. Do what it takes to win, as long as it isn't by using an external modification. That is the only limit here.
So you have a serious choice to make here. Either spend time looking for a server that fits your terms (or post in the starting up section saying what you are looking for), or deal with reality. Going back and forth here on this when you and I both know that you are the only one refusing to make a choice. So if it is so impossible to find a server that restricts people from building things that you deem unfair, get some money and rent a server. You'll likely have the attention of grief/hack teams for being oppressive to the point that you disagree with in game possibilities and expect people to play the way you want them to, but hey, that's your problem. Anyone who doesn't like your server has the same choices you face with this mobtrap ordeal. Find a server that is set the way you like, or make your own. Simple. This game simply does NOT have enough things to do to keep me interested in spending 3 hours each day doing the same thing for very little reward. Seeing as how I'm not picky I can join most servers and have a good time regardless of how "overpowered" someone is because they decided to be creative. Doesn't affect me because I have the mindset that makes me try harder and harder to beat them at their own game. If they have a uber efficient godly mobtrap and a vault room with 400 chests full of IV enchants then I know I'm about to get serious and show them how it's done.
That's the fun part about it. There is no SET way to play, so even the guy that has only 2 - 3 hours to play each day can be better set-up than the Joe Schmoe that plays 12 hours. Also, not everyone builds mobtraps or even feels they HAVE to. Even in competitive servers you have people who just play smart. I saw a guy who literally used only wood and stone tools to mine everything they can, and iron only to mine the rest, etc. That is smarter than me blowing through most of my tools as soon as I get them because I keep spending it all on enhancing one construction. With armor I barely get good enchantments and falling/failing to move out of creepers view fast enough in the mobtrap happens quite enough that I tend to waste the enchanted armor I do come across. It's not like I sit there for 10 hours straight grinding mobs and then getting lucky everytime I enchant. I enchant the swords I use to kill the mobs in the trap so thats even more valuable tools I'm blowing through while smartypants average joe who plays more carefully has been stocking up the tools and doesn't wear good stuff when he's in the wild + builds far, far away from spawn at bedrock so it's not easy to find his base. Killing him might net me some food (useless to me thanks to my autofarms), and low-grade tools. I'm not going to go looking for his base because I know for sure I'll likely find some other poor sap who wears his best stuff when scouting in the wild and is ripe for the casual sneak attack/kill.
Countless ways to give yourself an advantage. Either you will accept that someone else will always be able to out-do you unless you are willing to adapt and go bigger, or you keep arguing with me about it. If I truly can't find a server I like I have money thanks to working that can afford a nice server, or just use mine although even with 60mbits down and 6 up and a decked out PC It is not worth using my own when I could rent one for 25 bucks a month that is on 100mbits constant. We have choices.
Like I said, a simple method would be to reduce the amount of xp recieved by mobs based on if they were weakened by alternative methods. This would lower the productivity of mob traps designed to deliver mobs with as minimal health points as possible. At least that way people can't have a mob trap that means you just pop up and kill everything in one blow. This would mean it take three times longer to collect from those kind of trap designs, and you would lose three times the durability of your sword or whatever you use. It think that would be a benefit to not only making the minecraft a harder game under certain rare circumstances, but it would also help to correct those certain type of mobtraps I speak of.
It is encouraged, there is a difference. Okay, take strip mining for example. Strip mining is almost exactly like mobtraps in the sense that they are both boring, but more efficient than cave spelunking. Now some people still go cave spelunking even though it isn't the best choice if you want to make diamonds as quick as possible through mining. Now why some bother with Cave Spelunking is because it is inferior, but not quite that bad when compared to strip mining. Most like myself consider it a worthy trade of less diamond for less tedious gameplay.
Now the case we have here with mob traps are if they were designed right, they could be 10 times better than the normal method. So what if cave spelunking now gave you 10 times less of the diamonds? I suddenly think any time someone wants diamond, they would not even consider cave spelunking a viable option. That being because the other option is ten times better. Don't say there is a choice if one is incredibly superior. And don't say mob traps aren't superior, because that just means yours isn't up to par compared to some I've seen on servers. From the looks of one design they were producing more than a mob a second, all of which were one or two hit KOs. Not to mention this works efficiently regardless of day or night if they were willing to actually light the surface above their base, but they didn't. Now 60 mobs + per minute, and the fact that it can run twice as people who have to wait for night. And my sword lasts almost three times as long, and if you use diamond like me that is quite a life saver to get three times the uses out of a diamond sword.
Now, knowing you, I'm willing to bet you would say this monstrosity took long to create so it's worth the efficiency, but it only took about 4 hours to get to level 50. I'm sorry, but when I played on my single player save file, I played for a couple weeks straight and still hadn't gotten to level 50. You argue this is fair, not even counting in the fact that playing the other way means you have a huge chance of death at some point? I don't know how much time it took for the person to make the mob trap(they might have even had help for all I know), but four hours compared to weeks of work just won't do. If I use this mob trap to get to level 50 just twice(presuming it took 100 hours to make the mobtrap) then I will have already saved time in the long run. And too be honest I would really need to use it 6 times or more for the thing I have in mind.
Look, I'm always going to play with the core game mechanics regardless of if I protest something to be unfair. And finding a server that has all my favourite server mods, lacks server mods I hate, and banning mob traps is practically non-existent. I do use the alternative as you said, I do run a server. It's private though and I only use it play with some local friends. I don't ban mob traps though. I don't want mob traps banned contrary to what you think. I just believe there are certain aspects about them that should be nerfed to make the game more fair and balanced.
If you are looking to obtain level 50 enchantments, the only real choice at this point is making the mobtrap. Yes, you can do it the normal way, but as I said, who is going to spend that long. No one, and that is because the incredibly easy alternative exists. Now if Notch wanted us worming our way out of taking a long amount of time to get to level 50, then why didn't he just make it easier in the first place? Ingenuity should be rewarded, but how is this ingenuity if this is the only option if you want enchantments in a much shorter time. You speak of the smart being rewarded, but first off, mob traps don’t take a genius to build properly. Secondly, they reward far too much if done properly. How does that feel like ingenuity and why should that be so greatly rewarded like you said?
We do have choices, I’m not complaining about this because I can’t find an alternative around it. I’m saying mob traps have the potential to be over-powered because of various reasons I have listed before. It’s constructive criticism and I am hoping that maybe my feedback will help the game change in a way that helps it retain some of it’s challenge and difficulty.
It’s just like mushrooms and bone meal. I believe that to be unfair so I protest that there should be change. It makes far too easy of an alternative for food. And again, I’m not saying the feature should be gone. I’m just saying I wish you would get less mushrooms from a giant mushroom so you don’t have an entire stack of mushrooms from just a few bones. I’m not asking for giant mushrooms to be removed, and I think you are confusing that part. I’m just saying my personal opinion is they are in need of change to make the game more balanced and keep the hunger system from being easier to break than it needs to be. Just like with mobtraps(especially the ones that drop the mob to weaken them before hand).
I can level with you on the fact that mobtraps CAN be overpowered. However I don't make my mobtrap damage the mobs to where I only have to 1 hit them. So I can see your point on that and I myself would actually endorse your idea. I personally go through swords like crazy even with using potions of strength. At the same time, I've never seen a mobtrap I thought was overpowered on smp. You gotta realize mobspawns on smp vs. singleplayer are way different. The biggest thing being that you can NOT have an efficient mobtrap if a few other people are online as well. Not to mention that on pvp you most likely will not be able to even get your mobtrap producing well when no one else is online. Do you want to light the surface up so that raiders pretty much know they found your base? A 144x144 radius of land lighted by torches is a huge sign saying "Hey, I have a mobtrap down here so come take all the items I've stocked up".
If mobtraps can get to the level of productivity that they can on singleplayer, I'll be with you asking for some nerfage. They can't though. On smp a mobtrap vs. hunting mobs is not as big a gap as it is on singleplayer. They nerfed mobspawns a bit. That's a good thing. They gave mobs better pathfinding (takes longer for them to walk off into the water). You don't get 10000+ item mobspawners on smp unless you have a lot of people standing close to each other so the mobs will spawn in your trap.
You fail at basic reading comprehension.
Just waiting for Forge to officially release for 1.13.x to remove unneeded mobs from 1.13, like Phantoms, from the game because, in my gameplay based opinion, they add nothing of value to the game.
Fun fact: Clicking a bed every 30 minutes doesn't make you a better player, it makes you one who clicks a bed every 30 minutes. Wouldn't you rather just mod them out of the game completely?
I suppose I can agree with this, with the exception perhaps with the mobtraps that are lucky enough to contain several mob spawners. I found three mob spawners together in one area just recently, all close enough all be used within a mobtrap together with enough work(I was using the camera bug to peer through walls though). Mob spawners could perhaps use a tweek so mobs spawned from them give out slightly less experience than normal(like from 5 xp to 3 or 2 xp), thus it wouldn't destroy their uses completely, but also not make them as great as an asset in mobtraps that are used to collect vast amounts of experience.