s'alright :smile.gif:
please dont take this as an attempt at ridiculing or provocating you - im genuinely curious: what is the appeal for you, in a game that presents a world in such an obviously unrealistic manner (blocks, partial gravity, supernatural fists, etcetera), and is there a point with attempting to mimick reality after which youd say its not
conductive to a more enjoyable game anymore?
i ask because its actually the other way round with me - i dont care whether something is like in the real world or not - as long as its a universe that makes a little sense and is fun. (id wager you dont like games that actually play on such "bugs", like the disgaea series?)
The stuff you listed as unrealistic is kinda necessary for the whole game to be how it is. Being able to punch anything, the blocks. Partial gravity? If it's a little unrealistic that's just because it's hard to implement perfectly. I have no problem with any of this stuff, it's needed for the game. Glitched carts are not needed, there are ways to do it that would fit into the game much better (e.g. just making powered carts not suck). Part of it's probably because I'm a programmer and it's just such an obvious glitch. Like seeing two carts glitched together moving along the ground with no track.
I really hope they're never removed, minecarts are all but useless without them and freaking awesome with them. The coal cart should actually exert more than one Newton of force on other carts. And run without the player holding right mouse the whole time...
I've never had to hold down the button for them to work...
The problem with these suggestions are that there are a number of awesome uses for boosters that they still don't fix, and that I cannot envision a solution for.
My station has a cart sitting waiting. You get in it, it's on a stone plate. That sends the booster that sends you off. How do you implement this with "Booster blocks"?
As many people have suggested, let the booster blocks be turned on and off by switches and other redstone related stuff.
Doesn't really solve the problem. The cart will be sitting on a pressure plate, not the booster track, so it doesn't matter when I get in, I'm getting onto a button and the track is somewhere else.
Unless Notch adds the ability to make tracks and pressure plates over the same spot. That's been needed for a while.
Autocart is gay in my opinion. It's not even crafty like exploiting a glitch (in awesome ways sometimes), it's just a flat out cheat (not exactly what I mean but whatever :tongue.gif:)
More along the lines of one of those mods that just adds unrealistic unbalanced stuff.
The problem with these suggestions are that there are a number of awesome uses for boosters that they still don't fix, and that I cannot envision a solution for.
My station has a cart sitting waiting. You get in it, it's on a stone plate. That sends the booster that sends you off. How do you implement this with "Booster blocks"?
As many people have suggested, let the booster blocks be turned on and off by switches and other redstone related stuff.
Doesn't really solve the problem. The cart will be sitting on a pressure plate, not the booster track, so it doesn't matter when I get in, I'm getting onto a button and the track is somewhere else.
Unless Notch adds the ability to make tracks and pressure plates over the same spot. That's been needed for a while.
You're assuming that the block is something the cart must travel over. What if the block was something the cart had to pass by? Picture a giant spinning rubber wheel (like on a hotwheels track) placed on either side of the track that when the cart passes in between them, they hit the sides of the cart and rocket it forward.
The stuff you listed as unrealistic is kinda necessary for the whole game to be how it is. Being able to punch anything, the blocks. Partial gravity? If it's a little unrealistic that's just because it's hard to implement perfectly. I have no problem with any of this stuff, it's needed for the game. Glitched carts are not needed, there are ways to do it that would fit into the game much better (e.g. just making powered carts not suck). Part of it's probably because I'm a programmer and it's just such an obvious glitch. Like seeing two carts glitched together moving along the ground with no track.
i see your point, thanks. :smile.gif:
its interesting how what we do influences whats the stuff that jumps out at us. for you, its kind of process/end use-related, for me (study philosophy, do quite some painting) its things like narrative or stylistic incoherency.
while i was soaking in the tub, i had the funniest idea, though:
what would you guys think of magnets? since we build a compass from iron and redstone, a magnet block could be built somewhat like:
or
:Red:=redstone dust
a placed magnet block will move iron blocks (and minecarts on tracks) within a certain radius in a straight line for as long as this movement brings the iron closer to the magnet, pushing blocks that are in the way. (like temporarily imbuing blocks with sand/gravel gravity in a given direction) if an iron block is in the radius of multiple magnets, its only affected by the nearest. if its right in the middle, it wont move.
when redstone wire is attached to a magnet block, a magnet block only pulls when the redstone is activated. pulled blocks stay put as if placed when magnet is switched off, so that there wont be a need for complicated gravity stuff.
id like this better than a dedicated booster block because this would facilitate a lot of things, railgunning minecarts around being just one of many uses (i think id give up funny boosters for a freaking minecart railgun!). there could be sliding doors:
<->
[] <->
[] <->
<->
<->
<-> []
<-> []
<->
with = magnets and = iron blocks
when switching on top magnets, door slides upwards like picture to the right, and stays that way until bottom magnets are activated, reverting it back to the picture on the left
also, flood/lavagates, elevators, smashing traps and funny work accidents. :biggrin.gif:
ROFL, are you suggesting a maglev? That's awesomesauce!
Update from last time: while powered minecarts can boost other powered minecarts, using them for this is more trouble than it's worth because they lose inertia too quickly. If not for the rapid loss of inertia, this could be a great way to boost whole trains of minecarts because powered minecarts can only boost other powered minecarts--> the booster would wait for the last car in the train to pass before beginning the boost.
Edit - I just found Rolf-David's boost tutorial (not anything novel, but some credit is due), and now I'm going to try a three-stage booster: (1) holding area, (2) acceleration loop, (3) directional launch loop. Stage 1 is basically a shorter version of one of the test tracks described at the top of page 3 in this topic. Stage 2 will be a normal loop-booster, except that it's sloped, so gravity will have an unbalanced influence. The new Stage 3 is an unmodified second stage design from the previous two-stage model.
The second stage will have a built-in redstone circuit to prevent glitching:
RS NOR gates will make a bit counter to determine how long the minecart remains in the second stage, and I will use redstone wires for relays from the launch controls to determine whether a cart will be launched, or if the boost returns to the holding area and resets.
Hypothetical returns:
1. one-size-fits-all design for getting maximum boost without needing more track on the booster.
2. will [hopefully] not need extra boosters along the main track between stations.
I am against having a specialized booster brick simply because it is too specialized. Magnets, however, sound AWESOME! If magnets are implemented and iron is magnetized, I definitely see potential for awesome new monster traps with and ice or (using reduced surface friction). MagLev-ish minecart propulsion will require redstone and pressure plates, so it will be high enough on the tech tree (through the properties already inherent to the existing materials) that beginners will either have to figure it out on their own, or suffer with iron-consuming glitch boosters or coal-consuming powered minecarts.
If Notch were to allow crafting of replacements for resource-consuming complex constructions, then Minecraft would devolve into a race where the longest-playing player wins. Also, the existing techtree depends on the Minecraft community, instead of strictly in-game designs. This way, complex construction projects cause players to spend time (here and on YouTube) and variable resource inputs to produce different, increasingly advanced outcomes based on what others have done, using only the game's raw materials.
Remember: This is a SANDBOX game, not an MMORPG, despite the probable development of one on the servers, whether by accident or design.
So i'm liking this magnets Idea, the door idea as well using them, but mabie use mud as a 'sliding' block that allows large objects to move on? like being able to push any solid block across it and have it subject to extreamly sticky phisics when placed on the side, like well... mud
something like this
[] []
[]
[]
= magnets
= mud
= Iron BLOCK 'door'
Top view or side view or whatever but you see my idea, how the mud allows things to slide by it,
On the magnets themselfs:
Having a solid magnet wouldent be able to do much with, we would need to be able to toggle the push / pull of them likely via redstone, in this way linking several of them together through delays or switches to 'railgun' your minecart actually would be a prity worth while acheavement for your base :3 You know.. instead of just a block or bit of track that accelerates you (cheaaaaaap). It would also allow for cool things like big, iron, sliding, boom-proof, doors. Of course the blast door thing is kinda pointless when creepers can spawn rite behind you but hay that'll get fixed I hope
So TLDR; Mud makes good lubrication. And Magnets: How do they work?
Edit: I shold start a new topic for this magnet / mud idea when I get home.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Everybody shut up! Now, where'd you get those cool hats?
Just because it is a glitch doesn't mean it should be removed. It adds to the game more than a simple crafted block could. Let's say that I want to connect two places with track using the dedicated mine cart acceleration block. I would put the block there and just build my track. With the current system (glitched minecarts) I would need to look at the goals of this particular section of track so I don't waste materials and time over building the solution to the track.
Will it be used in only one direction? (from spawn to far away house) Then use a self reseting booster for one direction.
Will it be used for two direction travel but only after having been used in the other direction? (think from mine to home) Use a simple booster like this as seen from the side
[] [] [] [] [] []
with the booster cart in it's own flat track beside and between the soil pillars so that the booster remembers witch way you will come from next time.
Have a place where you want to be able to travel quickly but don't care about the looks or a little extra travel time but need two way propulsion? Use the above booster looping onto the other side of the booster track and bam you have a two way booster that is easily extendable making it a great quick and dirty solution.
Have a place where you will be often using in two directions? The best solution is to build a direction dependent track splitter with self resetting boosters on each side.
Now tell me with a strait face that an implemented booster block would have the level of depth that the current glitch presents. I propose that the glitch is removed a different way. Either come up with an equally deep solution to the minecart transportation problem (magnets hold promise) or code the glitch into the game so it is never broken through updates and thus is no longer a glitch.
Exactly. That is one of the main problems surrounding "undocumented behaviour".
So? Document it! Fixed.
Did you read the rest of the post? To "document" it would be to write code specifically for this "feature" so as to make it permanent throughout development and changes. IMO it would be really poor decision for Notch to make something as inelegant as the current boosters a permanent part of the game. I'm sure that he can develop a boosting system that still requires planning and forethought without being as nonsensical and visually unappealing as what we have now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if boosters are implemented...what would be the point of having the "engine" cart that uses coal? Unless boosters themselves require coal. Basically there should be no "free rides" IMO.
Besides, we can solve this with MAGLEV TECHNOLOGIES!
I'm working on a summarized proposal for magnets now. Minecarts can be dragged by magnets, but a maglev train will need to be pushed by a new kind of powered minecart-- instead of a furnace block, it would carry a magnet block.
(BTW, magnetic capability can become incredibly unbalanced, so I'm trying to make them prohibitively expensive for mass-production and unwieldy to use. On principle, it MUST have redstone and iron. I think Obsidian and/or one of the Hell-world materials would be a suitable ingredient. It should definitely be affected by gravity--only floats when repelled, or stuck to another magnet. Difficult to store in large quantities? Jury is still out on the storage issue.)
Edit - Example of a seemingly unbalanced use of magnets:
A giant platform propelled by a maglev system, and influenced by gravity: you use it to crush things.. although the terrain's shape (mountains and valleys) is not generally compatible with suitably large maglev flyswatters.
I'm fed up of devs "fixing" completely harmless glitches because it "wasn't intended". Who cares!? You've made something spectacular, by accident, but still wonderful.
You've missed the point. It isn't completely harmless. Glitchy unintended behaviour like this harms development. Why? Because it is a side effect of something else. So, ring-fencing the boosters so that they can't be touched might also affect other bits of code that need to get changed at some point. Then Notch would be left with the situation of not being able to touch two areas of code - the glitch, because people don't want him to "break" it and the code that needs to change but which, if it changes, would impact on the boosters.
Working around such problems usually means hacky methods or code duplication. A proper booster implementation of some sort resolves all those problems - it allows people to make their boosters (probably more neatly than they can at present) and it allows Notch to develop the game properly, free from the restrictions of having to keep a glitch in the code because it has some popular side effects.
Doing this while the game is still in development is, of course, the best time to do it.
Enjay knows what he's talking about. I'm sensing software development in his past/present.
I have an idea...call me crazy...but how about we just wait for Notch to fix minecarts so they fulfill their proper intended use. No magnets, boosters, spaceships, twinkies, etc. Engine carts should work as as follows:
Have a engine cart that can push several fully loaded carts (storage carts/people) up a 1/1 incline at a modest rate. (Let's say 3 blocks/sec)(Still powered by coal). On a flat surface the engine cart will pick up speed to say a maximum of 4 b/sec. When going downhill the cart will pick up momentum to maximum speed of say 6 b/sec. When an engine cart going down a hill enters a flat surface track there should be a smooth and appropriate decline back to 4/b sec and the same when going from flat surface to an incline. Now you have totally static, no glitch, no bull, hard coded numbers that never ever vary other than the temporary adjustment of speed when approaching an incline or decline. No magnets, boosters, spaceships, and certainly no twinkies. That's it, done, working as intended and thematically as possible.
I said it before, and I'll say it again : It could simply be implemented as an electrified straight track.
Elbow tracks rotate when electrified, but it has no effects in straight ones. Just make it "push" carts for X blocks, so people would need to electrify every X blocks. It's an elegant solution, it fits in the theme, it's easy to code... What's not to like...
If you want to be mean, make it electrified only for a few seconds after activation, so that people need to use pressure plates everywhere :smile.gif:
I have an idea...call me crazy...but how about we just wait for Notch to fix minecarts so they fulfill their proper intended use. No magnets, boosters, spaceships, twinkies, etc. Engine carts should work as as follows:
Have a engine cart that can push several fully loaded carts (storage carts/people) up a 1/1 incline at a modest rate. (Let's say 3 blocks/sec)(Still powered by coal). On a flat surface the engine cart will pick up speed to say a maximum of 4 b/sec. When going downhill the cart will pick up momentum to maximum speed of say 6 b/sec. When an engine cart going down a hill enters a flat surface track there should be a smooth and appropriate decline back to 4/b sec and the same when going from flat surface to an incline. Now you have totally static, no glitch, no bull, hard coded numbers that never ever vary other than the temporary adjustment of speed when approaching an incline or decline. No magnets, boosters, spaceships, and certainly no twinkies. That's it, done, working as intended and thematically as possible.
So you're saying no more stations or high speed travel over long distances?
If you didn't know, Bhopping is a glitch in the goldsource/source engine that allows you to travel at fast speeds.
Bhopping was never an intended mechanic but its usefulness and popularity meant that the developers couldn't possibly fix it.
I believe minecart boosters are exactly the same. Sure, its a glitch, but its a glitch that has become VERY popular and useful. An intentional fix would be ridiculous. I'm fed up of devs "fixing" completely harmless glitches because it "wasn't intended". Who cares!? You've made something spectacular, by accident, but still wonderful.
Also, "omg it makes no logical sense" ...what? I guess notch should fix my floating mud palace.
Bunny Hopping? That's your best example? It was only ever called a glitch by people who couldn't do it AND it was removed or heavily altered from most modern FPSes.
bhoppers are considered just as much as scums as campers are. Many servers ban it, even more leagues ban it, etc. Why would this convince Notch to leave a glitch in there.
Oh, and yes, your floating mud castle might fall someday. And believe me, I'll be here the day you oppose a physic update because of your precious mud pit :wink.gif:
The stuff you listed as unrealistic is kinda necessary for the whole game to be how it is. Being able to punch anything, the blocks. Partial gravity? If it's a little unrealistic that's just because it's hard to implement perfectly. I have no problem with any of this stuff, it's needed for the game. Glitched carts are not needed, there are ways to do it that would fit into the game much better (e.g. just making powered carts not suck). Part of it's probably because I'm a programmer and it's just such an obvious glitch. Like seeing two carts glitched together moving along the ground with no track.
I've never had to hold down the button for them to work...
Doesn't really solve the problem. The cart will be sitting on a pressure plate, not the booster track, so it doesn't matter when I get in, I'm getting onto a button and the track is somewhere else.
Unless Notch adds the ability to make tracks and pressure plates over the same spot. That's been needed for a while.
More along the lines of one of those mods that just adds unrealistic unbalanced stuff.
You're assuming that the block is something the cart must travel over. What if the block was something the cart had to pass by? Picture a giant spinning rubber wheel (like on a hotwheels track) placed on either side of the track that when the cart passes in between them, they hit the sides of the cart and rocket it forward.
ROFL, are you suggesting a maglev? That's awesomesauce!
Back to the drawing board :Frame:...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit - I just found Rolf-David's boost tutorial (not anything novel, but some credit is due), and now I'm going to try a three-stage booster: (1) holding area, (2) acceleration loop, (3) directional launch loop. Stage 1 is basically a shorter version of one of the test tracks described at the top of page 3 in this topic. Stage 2 will be a normal loop-booster, except that it's sloped, so gravity will have an unbalanced influence. The new Stage 3 is an unmodified second stage design from the previous two-stage model.
The second stage will have a built-in redstone circuit to prevent glitching:
RS NOR gates will make a bit counter to determine how long the minecart remains in the second stage, and I will use redstone wires for relays from the launch controls to determine whether a cart will be launched, or if the boost returns to the holding area and resets.
Hypothetical returns:
1. one-size-fits-all design for getting maximum boost without needing more track on the booster.
2. will [hopefully] not need extra boosters along the main track between stations.
If Notch were to allow crafting of replacements for resource-consuming complex constructions, then Minecraft would devolve into a race where the longest-playing player wins. Also, the existing techtree depends on the Minecraft community, instead of strictly in-game designs. This way, complex construction projects cause players to spend time (here and on YouTube) and variable resource inputs to produce different, increasingly advanced outcomes based on what others have done, using only the game's raw materials.
Remember: This is a SANDBOX game, not an MMORPG, despite the probable development of one on the servers, whether by accident or design.
something like this
[] []
[]
[]
= magnets
= mud
= Iron BLOCK 'door'
Top view or side view or whatever but you see my idea, how the mud allows things to slide by it,
On the magnets themselfs:
Having a solid magnet wouldent be able to do much with, we would need to be able to toggle the push / pull of them likely via redstone, in this way linking several of them together through delays or switches to 'railgun' your minecart actually would be a prity worth while acheavement for your base :3 You know.. instead of just a block or bit of track that accelerates you (cheaaaaaap). It would also allow for cool things like big, iron, sliding, boom-proof, doors. Of course the blast door thing is kinda pointless when creepers can spawn rite behind you but hay that'll get fixed I hope
So TLDR; Mud makes good lubrication. And Magnets: How do they work?
Edit: I shold start a new topic for this magnet / mud idea when I get home.
Will it be used in only one direction? (from spawn to far away house) Then use a self reseting booster for one direction.
Will it be used for two direction travel but only after having been used in the other direction? (think from mine to home) Use a simple booster like this as seen from the side
[] [] [] [] [] []
with the booster cart in it's own flat track beside and between the soil pillars so that the booster remembers witch way you will come from next time.
Have a place where you want to be able to travel quickly but don't care about the looks or a little extra travel time but need two way propulsion? Use the above booster looping onto the other side of the booster track and bam you have a two way booster that is easily extendable making it a great quick and dirty solution.
Have a place where you will be often using in two directions? The best solution is to build a direction dependent track splitter with self resetting boosters on each side.
Now tell me with a strait face that an implemented booster block would have the level of depth that the current glitch presents. I propose that the glitch is removed a different way. Either come up with an equally deep solution to the minecart transportation problem (magnets hold promise) or code the glitch into the game so it is never broken through updates and thus is no longer a glitch.
So? Document it! Fixed.
Did you read the rest of the post? To "document" it would be to write code specifically for this "feature" so as to make it permanent throughout development and changes. IMO it would be really poor decision for Notch to make something as inelegant as the current boosters a permanent part of the game. I'm sure that he can develop a boosting system that still requires planning and forethought without being as nonsensical and visually unappealing as what we have now.
Fixing boosters is not on his public to-do list:
http://www.toodledo.com/views/public.ph ... 9fbf9c05a0
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Besides, we can solve this with MAGLEV TECHNOLOGIES!
I'm working on a summarized proposal for magnets now. Minecarts can be dragged by magnets, but a maglev train will need to be pushed by a new kind of powered minecart-- instead of a furnace block, it would carry a magnet block.
(BTW, magnetic capability can become incredibly unbalanced, so I'm trying to make them prohibitively expensive for mass-production and unwieldy to use. On principle, it MUST have redstone and iron. I think Obsidian and/or one of the Hell-world materials would be a suitable ingredient. It should definitely be affected by gravity--only floats when repelled, or stuck to another magnet. Difficult to store in large quantities? Jury is still out on the storage issue.)
Edit - Example of a seemingly unbalanced use of magnets:
A giant platform propelled by a maglev system, and influenced by gravity: you use it to crush things.. although the terrain's shape (mountains and valleys) is not generally compatible with suitably large maglev flyswatters.
Enjay knows what he's talking about. I'm sensing software development in his past/present.
Have a engine cart that can push several fully loaded carts (storage carts/people) up a 1/1 incline at a modest rate. (Let's say 3 blocks/sec)(Still powered by coal). On a flat surface the engine cart will pick up speed to say a maximum of 4 b/sec. When going downhill the cart will pick up momentum to maximum speed of say 6 b/sec. When an engine cart going down a hill enters a flat surface track there should be a smooth and appropriate decline back to 4/b sec and the same when going from flat surface to an incline. Now you have totally static, no glitch, no bull, hard coded numbers that never ever vary other than the temporary adjustment of speed when approaching an incline or decline. No magnets, boosters, spaceships, and certainly no twinkies. That's it, done, working as intended and thematically as possible.
Elbow tracks rotate when electrified, but it has no effects in straight ones. Just make it "push" carts for X blocks, so people would need to electrify every X blocks. It's an elegant solution, it fits in the theme, it's easy to code... What's not to like...
If you want to be mean, make it electrified only for a few seconds after activation, so that people need to use pressure plates everywhere :smile.gif:
So you're saying no more stations or high speed travel over long distances?
Screw. That.
Bunny Hopping? That's your best example? It was only ever called a glitch by people who couldn't do it AND it was removed or heavily altered from most modern FPSes.
bhoppers are considered just as much as scums as campers are. Many servers ban it, even more leagues ban it, etc. Why would this convince Notch to leave a glitch in there.
Oh, and yes, your floating mud castle might fall someday. And believe me, I'll be here the day you oppose a physic update because of your precious mud pit :wink.gif: